Codex Blood Angels

[Wispy]

Whiners.

[Wysten]

Indeed.

 

They don't do everything better then anyone else, check the tournys, space wolves are still out in pretty solid force. We, Imperial Guard, Space Marines are still out there in force, thats a lot more then some codex's can say due to lacking the update.

[Valerian]

I don't agree either; I played several games against Blood Angels (different opponents with vastly different lists and styles), and didn't have a problem in any of the games. I think they are pretty well balanced overall. In fact, I've even got a BA based DIY army that I've been collecting since 3rd, and I haven't played with it yet with the 5th Edition codex, because I like what I can do with my Wolves better (and more reliably).

 

V

In case you couldn't tell from my faux-hysterical ranting, I'm actually in the group of people that believe that the BA book *isn't* overpowered. They're just different which is a good thing.

 

They are the flavour of the month and when the mass hysteria that follows any new release dies down everyone will realise that its just another army that can be beaten.

 

Oops I missed the sarcasm Stormbrow; I thought that post was unlike you.

 

V

[Brother Yorei]

By fluff Blood angels have always been more CC oriented then wolves and better at it. Wolves are in it for the bragging rights, Blood Angels simply have an inborn desire to slaughter . Heck they get so into the whole killing thing that the Salamanders (the Broist of marines) had to stop them from killing imperial civilians, they are pretty close to loyalist Khronites. Also mephiston is one of the greatest psykers in the imperium and has trancended the Blood Angels rage, which is a realy freeking big deal, not quite primarch level stuff, but its up there. No idea whats up with that Sanguinor dude though.

 

 

i play Blood Angels. first i got to make clear that the sallys did not stop Blood Angels from killing ivilians, they stopped Flesh Tears (a successor who are more susseptible to the red thirst) from doing so. second, blood angels are not actually better at close combat then wolves per se. their fighting style is more "artistic" where the wolves are "brutal".

 

the sanguinor is actually NOT a "real" blood angel. well, let me say he isnt as far as everyone but the blood angels are concerned. he is an "angelic being" that shows up at the blood angels and successor's greatest need to help them out. he is not actually part of the chapter structure.

 

mephiston on paper is @#$%#$%^ awesome. on the table (i use him extensively) he is not that hard to take down. just spend a turn hitting him with weapons that dont allow armor saves or instant death weapons work awesome too as he has NO INVULNERABLE SAVE. (just thought i should emphasize that)

 

any arguements? if so, i'd love to hear them.

[Blitzkreig]

Ummm... you get priests who grant FnP when our Wolf Priests don't and fluff says pull double duty as Chaplains and Apothecaries?

 

You can get Fast Attack tanks?

 

You can field an all jump pack army (without spending 25 points a model for said jump pack)?

 

And Meph is an incredibly bad character. No invulnerable OR Eternal Warrior on a guy who costs more than a land raider (i think)? Yeah, good job there Matty....

 

People think BA are overpowered because they do what they do well.

 

Codex: Space marines functions as a tactical strike force, it will always have the right tool for the right job.

Codex: Black Templars fights like a 13th century crusade.

Codex: Space Wolves fights like a Nordic Shieldwall.

Codex: Blood Angels fights like a bunch of psychotic pricks in jump packs, or psychotic pricks in tanks, or angelic-looking psychotic pricks in awesome armour and jump packs.

[Grey Mage]

By fluff Blood angels have always been more CC oriented then wolves and better at it. Wolves are in it for the bragging rights, Blood Angels simply have an inborn desire to slaughter :). Heck they get so into the whole killing thing that the Salamanders (the Broist of marines) had to stop them from killing imperial civilians, they are pretty close to loyalist Khronites. Also mephiston is one of the greatest psykers in the imperium and has trancended the Blood Angels rage, which is a realy freeking big deal, not quite primarch level stuff, but its up there. No idea whats up with that Sanguinor dude though.

 

 

i play Blood Angels. first i got to make clear that the sallys did not stop Blood Angels from killing ivilians, they stopped Flesh Tears (a successor who are more susseptible to the red thirst) from doing so. second, blood angels are not actually better at close combat then wolves per se. their fighting style is more "artistic" where the wolves are "brutal".

 

the sanguinor is actually NOT a "real" blood angel. well, let me say he isnt as far as everyone but the blood angels are concerned. he is an "angelic being" that shows up at the blood angels and successor's greatest need to help them out. he is not actually part of the chapter structure.

 

mephiston on paper is @#$%#$%^ awesome. on the table (i use him extensively) he is not that hard to take down. just spend a turn hitting him with weapons that dont allow armor saves or instant death weapons work awesome too as he has NO INVULNERABLE SAVE. (just thought i should emphasize that)

 

any arguements? if so, i'd love to hear them.

Actually, it was the Marines Malevolent they stopped.

[Wispy]

Space Wolves are actually the ones who had to intervene on the Flesh Tearers.

 

 

 

I don't buy the Blood Angels are more artistic, because, come on, fearless + furious charging translates to artistic to you? I definitely agree that Wolves and Blood Angels both have different brands of assault, with neither superior to the other. If I wanted to differentiate them from a fluff perspective, both are brutal, but for the Space Wolves style of assault is ruthless and cunning, while the Blood Angels are unstoppable rage and fury.

[Crynn]

Space Wolves are actually the ones who had to intervene on the Flesh Tearers.

 

 

 

I don't buy the Blood Angels are more artistic, because, come on, fearless + furious charging translates to artistic to you? I definitely agree that Wolves and Blood Angels both have different brands of assault, with neither superior to the other. If I wanted to differentiate them from a fluff perspective, both are brutal, but for the Space Wolves style of assault is ruthless and cunning, while the Blood Angels are unstoppable rage and fury.

 

You are worng there my friend. The initail comment of artistic vs brutal is exactly correct in terms of how each blood angel and wolf fights, in games terms irrelivant. However you will find that the Death Company will out brutal Wolves because they are death company, they are completely insane and will always try to die in battle. We have always had higher WS models than wolves and Int models because thats our style you have always had more attacks and acutal models. For instance counter attack your old true grit on the otherside we were the first marines to ever get WS 6, 7 and 8 and Int 6 and 7 also str and toughness 5 but that is comletely relevant to meph only Who isn't broken in game he has just been written by matt ward enough said. Even most BA players agree he should be Str and T 5 and an IC as in all fluff he fights with an honor guard usually. But they are different. We have always been in fluff better shock troopers only comparable to the alpha legion i believe, better at that first strike, the charge the initial close combat however at a close range fire fight wolves are the better marines hands down and to back that up they are fantastic in assault as well.

 

SW players have absolutely no reason to whinge at all, none. Our priests are good but at a cost combined with increased vehicle costs we have very small model count armies.

 

The only complaints should come from vanilla marine who went why are your devs and vanguard cheaper and why do you have sternguard? To which the answer is. Vang are cheaper because they needed to be in the marine dex and ours should be cheaper anyway, our devs are only cheaper because of how over priced they are in the marine dex and we have sternguard...... Well in fluff we've never had them its always been jump pack assault troops or assault troops in rhinos or terminators so you can thank Matt Ward for loving his own creation so much.

 

Most BA players would rather have had Phill Kelly write our dex. God forbid, the sanguinor, he isnt broken his fluff is just stupid and they made the oldest wisest chapter master a crap unit in codex he does not see competitve play anymore, fail matt ward, you are a fail.

[Blitzkreig]

Phil Kelly should write all marine codeices. There I said it.

[Wispy]

That is not a terrible thing to say. Phil Kelly is a smart man, who makes books that are fun with rules that reflect the armies inner-nature.

 

The Space Wolves dex captures the soul of the Space Wolve's in it's rules and really drives home that it is a chapter of heroes. The things he did for our head quarter options were fantastic. The sheer utility of all our HQs and their wargear was already excellent, and with Sagas and Oaths went a long way in giving the whole codex character.

 

The Blood Angel dex, in comparison, I feel is soul-less and the rules and options don't capture what the Blood Angels are about, besides the most superficial details of "WE'RE FAST AND ANGRY!"

 

Yeah. Superficial. Cheap. Those two words express my gut feelings about the BA book perfectly. I don't even think the book is competitively cheesey... I just think a lot of the design choices were poorly thought out.

 

It is a shame, because I actually thought Matt Ward did the opposite with Codex Space Marines. I actually feel it was really intelligently designed.

[JamesI]

Phil Kelly should write all marine codeices. There I said it.

Considering how much of the marine dexes are identical, it would make a lot of sense to have 1 person write them all. Just to make sure they stay consistent.

[krewl]

All the 5th codexes starting from Orks (Though they have some issues with AV14) are on roughly the same powerlevel.

 

Seriously, why would you cry cheese on mephiston when you can take;

 

- Wolf lord on Thunderwolf, Belt of Russ, saga of the warrior, frost weapon and bolt pistol. (Possible runic armour and talisman/teeth..)

 

That one will stomp on I5 anything in 12" charge range with fleet. Adding attacks for the kill's last turn makes him even more of a monster, and anything short of S10 will not instakill.

Need him buffed to take on Meph?

 

- Wolf lord on Thunderwolf, Thunderhammer, Storm Shield, Wolf tooth neclace (3+), Wolf talisman (5+ save against psy stuff) Saga of the Bear.

 

15 points cheaper I believe (from memory) then MagicMCchoppybloodboy..

Even more fun if you have a rune priest nearby as meph's combat boosts will not go off 50% of the time.

 

Let's Spar here, just mano a mano...

Meph get's the charge;

I7 means Meph get's to strike first.

6 attacks on 3+ = 4 hits

@S6 4 * 2/3 = 2 1/3 wounds

@S10 4 * 5/6 = 20/6 = 3 1/3 wounds.

 

3+ SS save;

@S6 = 1,55 wounds. almost certainly lives.

@S 10 = 2,22 wounds, very probabe you live.

 

WL hits back.

4 attacks hitting on 3+ = 2 2/3 hits.

Wounds on 2+ = 8/3 * 5/6 = 40/18 = 20/9 = 2 1/9th wounds.

 

Meph is now stunned, so next turn you'll get your hits in. Perhaps meph win's this statistically but he should be down to his last wound. When the WL get's the charge statistically they'll know eachother out. Add in 2 wolves for your lord and he betters his odds even more. Getting the charge should be very possible as your lord has a threat range of 19" to 24" whereas meph has 18" if there is no rune priest nearby, making him walk like a buff. (HINT, this is when you SHOOT him with AP1/2 so that your lord can finish him off. )

 

Off course this is basically a bad idea as you SHOULD attack meph where he's weakest, not where he's best at. But this does show that Wolves can duke it out with him and have a good chance. And stuff like this does not happen in a vacuum. Rune priests are THE best psycher blockers in the universe, and your wolf lord CAN hide in a wolves unit, while mephy can not join anyone.

 

His weak spot is that he has no Inv save. So he's vulnerable to AP2 firepower, something combi plasma's can bring in spades. But what if he hides behind a rhino? Well that's why you have cheap as can be Missille launchers in your Long fangs units. etc etc.

 

In short everything has a counter, don't whine, look on how to kill him on his weak spots. Especially Wolfs are the codex who can handle this guy, in CC, with firepower or nerfing him by shutting his psychic powers down. You have all the tools.

 

Want a real challenge, play with the DA codex :P come back to your wolf codex and re-think how good your codex really is.

 

Besedes, what propper wolf would sit by the fire crying that it is no fair, instead of polishing his thunderhammer so that he's ready to stomp some rear end? :D

[fivepointedstar]

We're a mix of good CC and good shooting. Why complain? BA players deserve cool toys too.

 

Well ya.. I'm only miffed that they have their Baal Predator, and our Chapter-flavor tank was taken away.

yeah what happen to the "EXTERMINATOR!" was very upset to see now i own a leman russ Exterminator i bought 10 years ago and i can't use it per the c:sw fifth ed. that suxs

[DV8]

I think too many people are blinded by the shiny in the new Blood Angels Codex, and fail to realize what the Blood Angels "pay" for the kind of perks they get.

 

On the surface, increased cost across almost all Rhino-chassis based vehicles to account for the Lucifer-pattern engines. As has been mentioned before, while individually the points increase doesn't seem like much, it adds up across the board and they'll find themselves squeezing points just to fit the stuff they want in.

 

Tactical squads must be 10 strong to field Special or Heavy Weapons. This means that, for those who have a tendency to attach characters to their squads, will find mounted Tactical squads next to useless in anything other than a Land Raider Redeemer/Crusader.

 

This means that should a player wish to take advantage of some of the benefits of their army (re: character protection by having them attached to squads/in transports, or having Sanguinary Priests riding along to provide Feel No Pain bubbles), they will either have the core of their army as Assault Troops, or have a mix and match of both Tacticals and Assault.

 

Now this presents quite a significant problem because it SIGNIFICANTLY changes their meta-game. The more Tactical squads they want to include to provide the firepower they want, the more they lose out because they end up with less points to spend on the perks you so readily vaunt as broken (which I assure you they are not). Or alternatively they end up paying a premium for Devastators and vehicles to provide the shooting they need, and end up with far fewer points to spend on infantry in general because of the increased points cost across the board for almost all their vehicles.

 

So Blood Angel players are stuck right off the bat with a conundrum. If they want to play the shooty army, they can either take lots of Tacticals, and lost out on all the fun stuff written into the Blood Angels codex, or play a mechanized list built around a core of mounted Assault Troops. Either way they'll begin to find that they are almost pidgeon-holed into a particular style of play, because so many of the unit choices forces Blood Angels players to close with the enemy, and get stuck in to really be effective.

 

Therefore a shooty Blood Angels army ends up having less things in equivalence to a generic Space Marine list built exactly the same way, because they're paying for things (re: Fast Rhinos/Razors/Predators/Vindicators/etc.) that they can't really take full advantage of, and a combat Blood Angels army ends up having less shooty things to support itself with because to accommodate for and field these combat units, they end up with less points to spend on support units.

 

What this means for players is that Blood Angels are FAR easier to beat in some regards because any one aspect they choose to excel in, they suffer for many others. A Blood Angels army that chooses to excel at shooting suffers heavily for it because they will either have lots of infantry and no mobility because vehicles are too expensive, or will have mostly vehicles and have very few infantry, meaning they can't play the attrition game, can't compensate if their vehicles are destroyed, and will struggle to hold objectives. A Blood Angels army that chooses to excel at combat suffers heavily for it because it becomes predictable, and will have less shooting to throw around. Any opponent of theirs with decent target selection and a good amount of firepower will ruin their day. Not to mention that a combat Blood Angels army will still have fewer models than a regular Space Marine list, and will struggle against armies that are designed to lay the hurt down in close combat (Tyranids, Orks, etc.) And a Blood Angels army that takes the middle ground and attempts a balance between combat and shooting will find it can't do either as effectively as another Space Marine army could.

 

All in all Blood Angels face struggles in every aspect, from writing a balanced list that incorporates all the elements a player wants to face while juggling cost to fit in the effective units required to support each other, to playing a game, whereby they are constantly compensating for their weaknesses because of the inherent nature of the Codex and the list they have written.

 

And the bottom line is this: any Blood Angels army that is designed to do one thing will do it well. But what it isn't designed for it will struggle at and more often than not fail at. This is the biggest crux of the new codex and why I think it is far from broken.

 

Where as the crux of the Space Wolves codex is that individually no unit is really all that awesome (except ThunderLords and ThunderCav), but it excels because of it's tactical flexibility. Our lists can be designed to do one thing well, and we will excel at it. But anything we weren't specifically designed for, we can still do pretty well. Which gives us versatility and flexibility on a level that very few other Codices can claim.

 

 

DV8

[Valerian]

Phil Kelly should write all marine codeices. There I said it.

Considering how much of the marine dexes are identical, it would make a lot of sense to have 1 person write them all. Just to make sure they stay consistent.

 

 

This I actually very much agree with. One codex writing team (no single person ever does this by themselves), with a team leader/coordinator. Phil Kelly would make a great lead for the Space Marine codices. The team could build a common foundation for all Marines to establish consistency in those things that should be the same (like shared equipment and vehicles), then branch off from the foundation for Chapter unique items, equipment, and units. I believe this would lead to more coherent products.

 

V

[Bulweih]

Hail brothers,

mighty fun read so far, just wanted to add my 2 cents.

The overall panickmaking of the BA Dex, their new shiny's etc. had me expecting a good fight, as a friend of mine came over with BA last weekend.

The first game was a planetstrike where my wolves protected an imperial world against a Waaagh!, after turn 3 "Thraka"(the only Ork of 2.75k left alive :D ) was surrounded by Ragnar and his Wolfguard, epic win for the wolves. Mission Ob's 3-0.

 

Next day came the game I was curious about. He fielded Dante with Sang.guard, Astorath with DC and Termies in a Land Raider, sounded threatening....

 

I went first and was alone, Astorath refused to come, the others did...

The Landraider rushed in guns blazing, the appearence and effect similar to the orks the night before as it literally failed to wound one of the Long Fangs and/or blowing up my rangefire-dread.

So Dante and his golden boys try their luck, to just the same outcome.

 

Second turn started with some moving on my side after which Ansgar the Firebreather and Thorvald Whitemane of Long Fang pack "Fenris Ancients" won themselves each two mighty barrels of wolfwhiz from their packleader as their combined Lasershots saw the BA LR blown up in an explosion that even took out one of the terminators that scrambled clear.

My Rangedread Bran Icefang annihilated the Sang.guard around Dante and the rest of pack Fenris Ancients saw Dante killed under combined fire.

My opponent gave up right after that, so I never actually experienced him on the board.

 

I think Matt Ward should be...., well there could be kids reading this ;) .

I hold our brothers of the BA in high regard and can relate to those who feel ill played with, with this new so called Dex.

I love my wolves, period.

The comments of Max Dammit, Grey Mage and Valerian I totally agree with, I also share DV8's view regarding the matter.

 

And for those searching things we wolves do best: anyone seen another SM downing a fenrisian keg of wolfwhiz in a single stroke, before walking through war and coming out the other side alive, no?You see the signs?I see the signs :D .

[JamesI]

I think too many people are blinded by the shiny in the new Blood Angels Codex, and fail to realize what the Blood Angels "pay" for the kind of perks they get.

 

On the surface, increased cost across almost all Rhino-chassis based vehicles to account for the Lucifer-pattern engines. As has been mentioned before, while individually the points increase doesn't seem like much, it adds up across the board and they'll find themselves squeezing points just to fit the stuff they want in.

 

Tactical squads must be 10 strong to field Special or Heavy Weapons. This means that, for those who have a tendency to attach characters to their squads, will find mounted Tactical squads next to useless in anything other than a Land Raider Redeemer/Crusader.

 

This means that should a player wish to take advantage of some of the benefits of their army (re: character protection by having them attached to squads/in transports, or having Sanguinary Priests riding along to provide Feel No Pain bubbles), they will either have the core of their army as Assault Troops, or have a mix and match of both Tacticals and Assault.

 

Now this presents quite a significant problem because it SIGNIFICANTLY changes their meta-game. The more Tactical squads they want to include to provide the firepower they want, the more they lose out because they end up with less points to spend on the perks you so readily vaunt as broken (which I assure you they are not). Or alternatively they end up paying a premium for Devastators and vehicles to provide the shooting they need, and end up with far fewer points to spend on infantry in general because of the increased points cost across the board for almost all their vehicles.

 

So Blood Angel players are stuck right off the bat with a conundrum. If they want to play the shooty army, they can either take lots of Tacticals, and lost out on all the fun stuff written into the Blood Angels codex, or play a mechanized list built around a core of mounted Assault Troops. Either way they'll begin to find that they are almost pidgeon-holed into a particular style of play, because so many of the unit choices forces Blood Angels players to close with the enemy, and get stuck in to really be effective.

 

Therefore a shooty Blood Angels army ends up having less things in equivalence to a generic Space Marine list built exactly the same way, because they're paying for things (re: Fast Rhinos/Razors/Predators/Vindicators/etc.) that they can't really take full advantage of, and a combat Blood Angels army ends up having less shooty things to support itself with because to accommodate for and field these combat units, they end up with less points to spend on support units.

 

What this means for players is that Blood Angels are FAR easier to beat in some regards because any one aspect they choose to excel in, they suffer for many others. A Blood Angels army that chooses to excel at shooting suffers heavily for it because they will either have lots of infantry and no mobility because vehicles are too expensive, or will have mostly vehicles and have very few infantry, meaning they can't play the attrition game, can't compensate if their vehicles are destroyed, and will struggle to hold objectives. A Blood Angels army that chooses to excel at combat suffers heavily for it because it becomes predictable, and will have less shooting to throw around. Any opponent of theirs with decent target selection and a good amount of firepower will ruin their day. Not to mention that a combat Blood Angels army will still have fewer models than a regular Space Marine list, and will struggle against armies that are designed to lay the hurt down in close combat (Tyranids, Orks, etc.) And a Blood Angels army that takes the middle ground and attempts a balance between combat and shooting will find it can't do either as effectively as another Space Marine army could.

 

All in all Blood Angels face struggles in every aspect, from writing a balanced list that incorporates all the elements a player wants to face while juggling cost to fit in the effective units required to support each other, to playing a game, whereby they are constantly compensating for their weaknesses because of the inherent nature of the Codex and the list they have written.

 

And the bottom line is this: any Blood Angels army that is designed to do one thing will do it well. But what it isn't designed for it will struggle at and more often than not fail at. This is the biggest crux of the new codex and why I think it is far from broken.

 

Where as the crux of the Space Wolves codex is that individually no unit is really all that awesome (except ThunderLords and ThunderCav), but it excels because of it's tactical flexibility. Our lists can be designed to do one thing well, and we will excel at it. But anything we weren't specifically designed for, we can still do pretty well. Which gives us versatility and flexibility on a level that very few other Codices can claim.

 

 

DV8

DV8, this is a great post. As a BA player, I had some fun with the scary full on assault army, but have scaled back to try to create something balanced, something more like what a codex army would be with a BA feel to it. It is not easy to get a good balanced list.

[fivepointedstar]

And for those searching things we wolves do best: anyone seen another SM downing a fenrisian keg of wolfwhiz in a single stroke, before walking through war and coming out the other side alive, no?You see the signs?I see the signs :D .

I heard Blood Angels prefer stout anyway to quinch there black rage with the blackend goodness. hopefully Guinness renewed his brewery in the 40k universe.(somewhere located near the emperor's palace and 2nd st. lol)

[Brother Yorei]

ok. played 4 games vs wolves yesterday. i play ba. we used the same lists for all 4 games. we each won 2 games. were going to play a fifth but didnt have time.

[Valerian]

Where as the crux of the Space Wolves codex is that individually no unit is really all that awesome (except ThunderLords and ThunderCav), but it excels because of it's tactical flexibility. Our lists can be designed to do one thing well, and we will excel at it. But anything we weren't specifically designed for, we can still do pretty well. Which gives us versatility and flexibility on a level that very few other Codices can claim.

 

DV8

 

 

DV8,

 

Good post. I really emphasize the issues of versatility and flexibility in my Army Building Guide; it's okay if individual units are somewhat specialized, and geared to accomplish specific missions, however, all of the units should come together to form an army that is flexible. I agree with you that the Blood Angels have much more difficulty in achieving that, whereas the Space Wolves can do it quite easily.

 

Valerian

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Anything you do well,we can do almost as well.

Anything you have trouble doing,we do that pretty damn well too.

 

 

That is the truism of the Space Wolf Codex. And it applies across the board to every codex.

[Firenze]

@ Krewl: I use the DA dex almost all the time for my DIY chapter, and I dont use any Ravenwing/Deathwing combo, Its a battle company. And it is excellent for me. Why do you say its bad?

 

OT: The BA dex is strong, noone can deny that. But its units add up very quickly. You most likely will outnumber them so use it to your advantage. If they mass DS, be more mobile than them. It works.

[krewl]

Also remember the weak points..

 

FnP is good, but they get it fro a one wound IC that you can target in CC.. (Splat..)

 

Furious charge is good, but they'll need the charge for that. Wolves have plenty of options to deny them that. And if they drop in between your units and shoot the'll love templates, and your charge and oh yeah... no Furious charge then :) .

 

Remember there's a counter for everything, as I said before, wolves are one of the most flexible army's possible, so with some play experience there is nothing they (BA) can doe that you can't counter.

 

Edit: @ Firenze, DA battlecompany lists are still viable, but usually you are paying more for them then a similar list from codex SM without any (really usefull) unique advantages. Let's not get into that here on the wolf forum though, if you can play with them and have enjoyable matchups all the more power to you, great work. :tu:

[jmurph]

Whiners.

Useless much? ;)

 

The SW codex doesn't lose anything to C:BA- they are very different in playstyle. As mentioned, BA pay for all those fast vehicles and shiney troopers. However, where they really benefit is the cheap assault squads who can take dual flamers or meltas (their tac squads are comparable to the C:SM ones). The AMs can either use JPs (very good with the BA rules) or load up in fast rhinos, razors (more shooty and better than tac squads). However, compared to our GHs, the non-JP Ams/Tacs are less versatile. Our GHs are as good in assault as the AMs but also pack bolters to deal with stuff you don't want to assault. Countercharge makes them a real PITA and is better than Furious Charge for general utility. Plus, GHs are guranteed it! AMs are very good, and comparable value to GHs, though very different.

 

The FA Baals are very nasty, but so are SW TWC. Again, just different styles. HS is similar, but Long Fangs outclass devs and BA tanks are more mobile, but mandatory fast means expensive (and doesn't really help preds that just sit behind cover and shoot).

 

BAs can take more dreads and Blood Claws are amazing against infantry. However, said dreads are also very vulnerable to melta forces- triple melt vets from IG, twin melta AMs from BAs, twin melta GHs from SWs, etc. Lib Dreads can't even take extra armor!

 

Death Company are overpriced and Honor Guard, Vanguard, and Sanguinary are all good, but expensive and VERY vulnerable to low AP weapons. Plasma eats their face.

 

FNP from Priests is very nice, but a double edged sword for troops looking to get into CC since 1) ICs must move into assault first and 2) IC's can be singled out. One round with a Pfist and the Priest goes splat. So it mainly helps to weather small arms fire coming in.

 

Much has been said about the "daemon prince" Mephiston and the Sanguinor on eh internetz. Both are very expensive and very killy. Both fold to low AP weapons and squads with PFists. Mephiston cries when there is a psychic hood or runepriest around. Assault Terminators and TWC with SS eat his face. I saw him go down to IG fire- lascannon shots with orders followed by drive by plasma vets stings! With wolves, two GH squads with twin meltas can walk up and melta him for 3 wounds (bolters won't do much- 18 bolters translates to less than a wound) and will let hidden PFiists pull off the last wounds. (It's even better if they are in rhinos.) No invulnerable save sucks!

 

I think the only ones who should complain is C:SM players. Both SW and BA have better books and BA even took some of the C:SM specialized units.

[legionless dog]

By fluff Blood angels have always been more CC oriented then wolves and better at it. Wolves are in it for the bragging rights, Blood Angels simply have an inborn desire to slaughter <_<. Heck they get so into the whole killing thing that the Salamanders (the Broist of marines) had to stop them from killing imperial civilians, they are pretty close to loyalist Khronites. Also mephiston is one of the greatest psykers in the imperium and has trancended the Blood Angels rage, which is a realy freeking big deal, not quite primarch level stuff, but its up there. No idea whats up with that Sanguinor dude though.

 

 

err no, by the fluff (the older stuff) blood angels were just codex marines with a bad temper and a few toys, only with the new codex and the worst codex writer in the last 10 years did blood angels turn into loyalist zerkers.