Honor Guard or Assault Squad?

[soshi kenpachi]

I'm debating with myself on whether to run an Honor Guard, or a full kitted out Assault Squad with Commander Dante/JP Librarian for a Dante Ambush army. The idea is that I have some dreadnoughts and termies on the table moving forward to threaten my opponent with a devastator squad in back forcefully disembarking any troops in transports. Once the opponent reacts to the threat, Dante and company deep strike in and open up and decimate the biggest threat. Standard Ambush response(fight or flight). If they fight then everyone dies over a turn or two while the dreads and termies come to mop up, if they flight then they run into the initial threat. At least, that's the hope. So which is going to be more effective?

 

Assault+JP Sanguinary Priest: Total size is 13 models including 3 ICs allowing for some fun wound allocation. Still, the load out is much more limited than that of an honor guard, and no Chapter Banner can be taken.

 

Honor Guard: Total size is 7 models, including 2 ICs allowing for fewer allocation misdirects, and fewer models in general. Larger load out options allowing a much more impressive ambush effect, and allowing a lot more anti-armor capabilities.

 

Both would cost about the same as far as I'm envisioning the group. So... which would be more effective? I don't necessarily need them to strictly kill. They need to be a credible and difficult to kill to really force the enemy to collapse in on the single unit so I can treat most of their army as a horde(blast them with heavy flamers once they've collapsed)

[Morollan]

Remember that you cannot assault when you arrive by Deep Strike and if you shoot then you're going to be nicely clumped up for your opponent to blast to pieces, especially with any ordnance they may have.

 

That being said, I think the choice of unit depends on what you're likely to be facing. Against hordes, the numbers of the assault squad would pay dividends as you'd get more shots and more attacks (if you make it into close combat). Against more elite troops, a tooled-up honour guard would be more effective.

[JamesI]

It really depends on the rest of the army. Perhaps post a link to a thread for the army as a whole and we could better advise you.

[soshi kenpachi]

I'll post the ambush list here in a bit. I'm at work now, so It'd be more by memory than anything concrete. I'll post it in a minute.

 

As far as not being able to assault in, I know they're going to sit there and be shot up by any enemy ordnance. That's kinda the point. It's an ambush squad. Its purpose is fulfilled by jumping in, obliterating the biggest threat on the board, and drawing fire to allow my stormravens to bring up my kitted out CC assault squads(combat squaded down and accompanied by a JP Sanguinary Priest) who then move in and murder with a purpose.

 

I'll post momentarily then

[Massawyrm]

Sounds like what you really want is a group of Vanguard Vets. They're great for that sort of thing - though they can't assault with Dante (or any IC for that matter.) Here are what I would recommend for this role:

 

1)VV - nicely kitted out. Not much anti-tank, but great for coming in and locking up.

2)HG - 4PW/4IP sounds like what you're looking for. A little pricey, but they drop in and flash something with 4 melta shots (5 with Dante) and with the chapter banner will have 20PW attacks plus Dante on their inevitable charge.

3)Death Company. Death Company are great in this role. Drop pod them in and throw 9 + a chaplain/Reclusiarch their way.

 

Skip the assault squad. Never use a scoring troop unit in role like this. Especially since they can't really hang at the same level as the above choices.

[soshi kenpachi]

Hmm... I'm trying to keep the units under 300 points. How would you kit the units out?

 

Also, keep in mind that I want these guys as a target. The idea behind it is that the shock of their entry:

1) Eliminates a key unit within the enemy's force organization(I.E. dropping in, blasting a Synapse Creature, or Mephiston, or a unit of Nobs, or what have you)

2) Create a credible threat that needs to be dealt with RIGHT NOW with multiple enemy units.

3) Can appear away from the my main force to draw their units together without a threat of a deep strike mishap.

 

I want it to be a single unit with 3 ICs namely because it's handing the opponent 500-700 points on a silver platter. The intention of dropping it to wipe out a unit on its introductory turn it to add that little je ne sais quoi that leads an opponent to think 'I want them dead, I want their families dead, I want their tortilla stand BURNED TO THE GROUND!' The JP rush moves up while firing into the mass, and by the time the ambush has been dealt with you have 40 Jump pack equipped death machines knocking on their front door. The packs allow them the speed to catch up with pretty much anything to take it down after the enemy's feeding frenzy on the Ambush party.

 

Really, what I want is a feeding frenzy on Dante's party. I want them to levy every weapon they have against Dante, to make them expend every round at their disposal getting rid of a threat that just wiped 200-300 points off the board in a single turn. So assaulting into a unit isn't as important as putting the fear of the Emperor into my opponent.

 

That being said, I was looking at the Vanguard Veterans you guys suggested, and I almost wonder if 2 units Heroic Assaulting in to CC the big threats to the dante pool would be a good idea. I mean, it prevents people from firing at them and further concentrates the attention to that quarter of the board. Good idea, bad idea?

[Massawyrm]

Bad idea. First of all, if you're looking to draw heat, Dante is the wrong way to go. He dies way too easily without the proper support. He's sexy with a precision strike. But, if you're jonesing for him:

 

It sounds like what you really want is Dante with a unit of TH/SS Terminators. Really hard to kill, soaks tons of hate and screams DEAL WITH ME NOW at the top of its lungs.

 

What you MIGHT be looking for is a 5 man JP Death Company with Lamertes, Dante and a Librarian with Shield. 675pts - 750 if you give all the DC power weapons. That will soak so much hate on first turn that it isn't even funny. It will also evaporate anything it touches short of a 8+ man THSS Termie squad.

 

Personally, I go cheap with my deal-with-me-nows. I do something similar - I just throw 10 DC in a drop pod and 2 DC Dreads in drop pods. Same kind of strategy, But I spread the hate around a bit, putting two dreads in their backyard on turn one, then dropping a DC near a soft spot. 555pts plus 165 for the reclusiarch on bike that supports them. This buys enough time for my other units to get into position.

[Brother Landrain]

It sounds like what you really want is Dante with a unit of TH/SS Terminators. Really hard to kill, soaks tons of hate and screams DEAL WITH ME NOW at the top of its lungs.

 

This gave me an idea...

 

I looked at the BRB, and can anyone show me that Dante cannot join a Unit like this?

 

It never specifies, an IC must join the same unit type...

 

If so...

 

 

LRC with 8 TH/SS termies...

 

Dante + SP/JP + Chaplain/JP + Libby/JP deepstrike, right on top of the TH/SS when they disembark...

 

Now we have 8 termies, with Hit and Run, Reroll charge, FNP...

[soshi kenpachi]

The problem with that is that you have to move into cohesion with a unit during the movement phase. When you deep strike in, you're considered to have moved, but you never really move in... or am I getting the rules wrong?

[Brother Landrain]

Within 2" at the end of the movement phase...

 

So roll resrves, oh Here comes dante.

 

Look at the board.. DS where you will move the LRC to...

 

Deepstrike, no scatter..

 

Move LRC, Disembark TH/SS squad..

 

IC's join the squad..

 

granted you lose the charge from the LRC...