Is razorback spam overpowered?

[thundrchickn]

Played another game tonight for an advancement like tourney. Each week we play a game to advance up a ladder system. The guy at the top for 5 games straight with an all painted army wins 1000 pts free from the LGS.

 

I ran another variant of my razorback spam tonight against demons.

 

He had

 

bloodthirster

keeper of secrets

 

3 sets of 3 flamers

 

10 bloodletters

20 demonettes

10 plaguebearers

 

6 screamers

 

2 deomn princes with wings

1 soulgrinder with everything

 

 

I played

 

Reclusiarch

 

1 sang priest power weapon

 

4 5 man RAS meltagun/power weapon/razorback/lasplas turret

 

1 5 man same minus meltagun

 

8 man RAS same gear as the first four choice except in rhino

 

3 dakka dakka baal preds

 

2 riflemen dreads

 

 

It was annhilation with pitched battle. I only lost 2 guns off 1 dakkka baal and 3 marines total. This guy isn't bad at all but this was rediculous. We couldn't even put it to bad rolls. I'll admit I outplayed him a bit on just about everything but this is stupid. I want to be competitive but not steamroll people. This is the 4th time I've won this decisively and I starting to think razor spam is OP.

 

Heres the BatRep

 

He wins turn 1 and gives it to me where I proceeded to reserve everything. He never even contemplated the decision. He lost his choice roll but it wasn't terribly unbalanced. His deomn princes and soulgrinder were in his main choice so that kinda sucked but he got his screamers/keeper/2 troops. He didn't have an idea where to go since nothing was on the board with no objectives so he covered the center.

 

Turn 2

 

all my preds and dreadnoughts come on and kill his keeper and wound some of his other squads. He gets almost everything except a demon prince and his bloodletters but the plagbearers hit a wall on deepstrike and went poof.

 

Turn 3

 

2 razors and my command rhino roll up. I parked my rhino in front of hi screamers hoping he'd attack it instead of my baal forcing him to roll 6s and if he did pop it, my reclusiarch would come out and teach him a lesson. I shot a bunch of stuff all to pieces. Killed his soulgrinder, demon prince, bloodthirster, 1 of the flamer squads. He blew up some weapons on 1 of my baals but thats it.

 

Turn 4

 

Everything else of mine came on and I chose to walk my last 3 razor squads on and they along with 1 dreadnought multi assaulted a flamer squad and his demonette squad which I had whittled down from 20 to 13 ish. He ended up having to take 8 saves for each squad. This was where I lost 3 marines. 1 from each squad. My razorbacks basically killed everything else except 1 flamer, his bloodletters(which were on his side of the board very far away from everything. He ended up moving up everything left but had no shooting except the 1 flamer and no assault.

 

Turn 5

 

I started long range cleam up and he called it after only 2 tanks shot.

 

So I ask again... Is razorspam overpowered? I have to accept what happened tonight as this is for an actual competition where glory(and loot) are on the line. Has anyone else been trying this type of list out and how have you fared.

[the jeske]

nope . its just demons sucking at hurting anything with AV.

[Tigcarn]

Even worse when it's fast AV.

[Firedrake28]

Yeah, Razorback spam is far from overpowered. As said, it's the Daemons' inability to easily deal with mechanized armies.

[JamesI]

My experience with razorback spam (as the opponent not the player) is that it is far from overpowered. When you're not used to it, it can be overwhelming to deal with so much armor. But after some practice, its not an impossible army to crack.

[Corby]

Yeah, Razorback spam is far from overpowered. As said, it's the Daemons' inability to easily deal with mechanized armies.

 

This. Demons are one of the worst armys in the current Mech enviourment.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Daemons are actually quite strong if built right and can pop armor. Most vehicles have rear armor 10. If the tanks are moving to avoid being charged then they are not shooting as much. Here is an example of good daemon army:

 

Tzneetch Herald/chariot + bolt

Tzneetch Herald/chariot + bolt

 

6x Fiends

6x Fiends

5x Flamers

 

Tzneetch daemon prince/wings + bolt + iron hide

Tzneetch daemon prince/wings + bolt + iron hide

Tzneetch daemon prince/wings + bolt + iron hide

 

For troop choices run small squads of PB to hold objectives.

 

0b ;)

[SamaNagol]

Flamers make Razorbacks die.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I razorspam is okay. It's been done with SM and SW, we have the advantage in terms of speed. Is it an overpowered army? No, there are many counters to it. Razorbacks like rhinos are easy to pop and as they are eliminated the strength of the army is weakened. Five man assault squads are okay but not special either. Paul Murphy wrote a good tactical article on this style of play on the spikey bits blog in case anyone is interested.

 

0b :sweat:

[TheHarrower]

I'd say no. Jawaballs got crushed at the 'Ard Boyz tournie from what I understand and I believe he had a lot of Razorbacks.

[shinigami]

It may be me, or even my opponent's armies- playing style ( I mostly play against IG and space wolves) but razorback and 5 men assault squad is usually the easiest way for me to get fastly kicked in the ass :D

 

It's simply a matter of the army (and the player) you get to face. Which means that NO, razorback spam is not overpowered at all.

 

On a side note, I HATE 5 men assault squads. They are simply too weak once left alone in the opened space. and it's gonna happen, cause razorbacks are easy to pop up.

I appreciate the good ol' rinho much more...

[lounahtic]

i think the strength in razorback spam is their repetitiveness... in certain armies like ones w/ a deathstar unit... well u kill that and then the rest of their army is bleh... in spam type armies... well so you killed 3... i got 20 more... now what? to me that's why they're successful... because they can afford to loose things and it wouldn't necessarily be a game changer... and it's relatively easy to play... all your units are pretty much the same, doesn't have to remember a bunch of things...

[thundrchickn]

I do like not having to have markers on my vehicles to remember what unit is riding in it. Keeping track of red thirst is bad enough. by the way just ordered some predators from amazon and I plan to replace my riflemen with las/autocan preds. I think they're destructors. I was also thinking of dropping all my power weapons or at least enough to fund hunter killer missles on every tank. I got the idia watching a jawaballs vid and it was just stupid that for 10 points each I can have 10+ S8 unlinited range shots that I can use one turn one since I never have to worry about vehicle shooting restrictions.

 

Those riflemen will eventually get forgeworld CC arms with the cool claws so I can swap em around and whatnot. I've already got 2 drop pods for getting the furiosos behind enemy lines. My plan for this is deepstrike-> pop smoke -> hope he survives shooting as his back would be against the drop pod to prevent rear shots and the cover save along with medium armor should ensure 1 survives.

 

I treat a lot of my units like garbage. As soon as they become useless in my shooting phase(either from damaged results or being outmaneuvered and trapped so he can't speed away) I ram them into stuff. tank shock ftw.

[Black Memories]

I've found playing against razorback spam with my Blood Angels the trick seems to be ignoring the rest of the army and popping the razorbacks themselves. The army really seems to rely on lots of weak armored vehicles that most shooting armies can remove or disable in a turn or two. removing the 'backs not only disables the obvious firepower, but the secondary aspect is those units are now stranded away from assistance most of the time, and they're trying to hoof it around the field carrying a melta weapon. For all intensive purposes they can be dealt with as you please while you go for the tougher targets on your own accord. The odds of 2 preds (of any kind), or 2 vindi's, or a few dreadnoughts, and sang. shield librarians taking down coordinated strikes from my remaining shooting or assault forces is low. And no, deploying from reserves still doesn't prevent this. This has been done against me multiple times, unless i have a DC dread staring down a squad, all firepower goes into the rhino/back transports first to remove the movement.

 

My two general ways to fight someone are to take out their weakest targets first or their toughest, razorback spam seems to trick people into attacking the tough targets while the glass cannon razorbacks deal damage (truly I'm just guessing here, I don't play them). That being the case correct target selection can cause razorback spam serious damage, as well as playing an army that does well against them (but that goes for any 40k army). So no I'd say they aren't overpowered. Honestly razorback spam is hugely over hyped. I haven't lost to one yet and I really was kind of worried the way everyone talked them up.

[thundrchickn]

I've found playing against razorback spam with my Blood Angels the trick seems to be ignoring the rest of the army and popping the razorbacks themselves. The army really seems to rely on lots of weak armored vehicles that most shooting armies can remove or disable in a turn or two. removing the 'backs not only disables the obvious firepower, but the secondary aspect is those units are now stranded away from assistance most of the time, and they're trying to hoof it around the field carrying a melta weapon. For all intensive purposes they can be dealt with as you please while you go for the tougher targets on your own accord. The odds of 2 preds (of any kind), or 2 vindi's, or a few dreadnoughts, and sang. shield librarians taking down coordinated strikes from my remaining shooting or assault forces is low. And no, deploying from reserves still doesn't prevent this. This has been done against me multiple times, unless i have a DC dread staring down a squad, all firepower goes into the rhino/back transports first to remove the movement.

 

My two general ways to fight someone are to take out their weakest targets first or their toughest, razorback spam seems to trick people into attacking the tough targets while the glass cannon razorbacks deal damage (truly I'm just guessing here, I don't play them). That being the case correct target selection can cause razorback spam serious damage, as well as playing an army that does well against them (but that goes for any 40k army). So no I'd say they aren't overpowered. Honestly razorback spam is hugely over hyped. I haven't lost to one yet and I really was kind of worried the way everyone talked them up.

 

what do you play?

 

I've had many people try what you're talking about and the only army that even came close was mechdar and a templar guy. The templar guy I can chalk up to my fault because I was screwing up target priorities and stuff. I literally ignored a rhino because I thought there weren't any guys in it. So I walked away to sit on an objective and guess how surprised when 10 SMs jump my bones on the charge with preferred enemy. If I had known I could've opend the vehicle with a my melta and charged the guys inside(5 man RAS with power weapon and sang priest with power weapon beats basic 10 man SM anyday) as I still had 2 turns to get to the objective that was only 6 inches away.

[Blitzkreig]

That Daemon list is god awful if I may say so, really all over the place...

[Zid]

Well, personally, I think Razorback spam sucks. You have no other "true" threats other than the razors, and they're glass cannons. Unlike SW who have 18 longfangs packing 15 ML's backing em up, BA razorspam is less impressive typically. Not to mention that Demons players list wasn't really optimized, and like peeps said, they have tough time with armor.

 

Razorspams strength is spam. Razorspams weakness is the same, spam. Your not flexible. Yes, you'll rock MC's and light vehicles. Yeah, you CAN pen a LR with some good rolling... but the issue is you need to be within 24" of your target for one, everythings in AV 11 tincans, and once your razors are gone your squads will get mowed. Lootas, Rifleman dreads, etc. are the BANE of lists like this... and IG will have a field day because you have to get to em.

 

Personally, I think Razorspams the most easily countered of the bigger lists. Not only is it expensive to build compared to other lists (Getting the AC's for Razorbacks is a pain), but it lacks flexibility. You lose 3-4 razorbacks and your lists neutered.

 

Thats just me. I think angel lists need to punch things, not try and act like IG

[Black Memories]

what do you play?

 

I've had many people try what you're talking about and the only army that even came close was mechdar and a templar guy. The templar guy I can chalk up to my fault because I was screwing up target priorities and stuff. I literally ignored a rhino because I thought there weren't any guys in it. So I walked away to sit on an objective and guess how surprised when 10 SMs jump my bones on the charge with preferred enemy. If I had known I could've opend the vehicle with a my melta and charged the guys inside(5 man RAS with power weapon and sang priest with power weapon beats basic 10 man SM anyday) as I still had 2 turns to get to the objective that was only 6 inches away.

 

 

I generally play a long-ranged firepower and high assault blood angels list. Generally i run either high jump pack models + mephiston + devs with some mech, or I run a heavily mechanized list with tanks for firepower. The list i took to a recent 2250 tournament that 22-0'd two razorback spam lists was this:

 

Ep. Lib with unleashed/might of heroes

2 Sang priests, 2 power weapons, 1 jump pack

6 Assault termies, 3 lc's/3 thunder hammers

Land Raider Crusader, melta/extra armor

2 Assualt squads, 10 marines, 2 meltas, powerfist

Tact. squad, 10, plasma pistol, plasma gun, power weapon, lascannon, twin-las razorback

Baal Predator, ass. cannon, heavy bolters, dozer

2 Attack bikes, 2 multi meltas

Pred. Lascannon turret, lascannon sponses (out of fashion, i know)

Vindicator

 

I know the cool thing now is autocannons and massed melta guns (and i do have a few), but i still majorly prefer lascannons when i can get them.

 

The basic deployment was a mechanical wall on my end, jump packers behind it. Scout up with the baal if i can and start getting rear armor if possible. This may be a weird looking list but contrary to razorback spam lists, its strength is that everything is a little bit different from everything else.

 

Basically what happened was i opened up all the transports and then my assault terminators when through and just ripped everyone to shreds in each combat round, they never dropped below 3 terminator models in any game and the librarian never went down either, and the LRC was never destroyed. Also no one seems to think the laspreds are good anymore but my god they're wrong. The turret is very expensive, and with a space marine predator I agree, its overpriced, but with a Blood angels predator you can move 6 and still fire all guns, thats incredible. It was destroyed once by a drop podding librarian dreadnought because it's all it could magna grapple. Honestly the most disappointing unit i took was the 5 tactical marines inside the razorback, and the vindicator, though i think had i played different opponents the vindi would have shined (also rolling two 1's on two pens against a LR filled with power sword wielding evil in the third game and some amazing cover saves really toned down the awesome it potentially could have presented).

 

Rambling aside, i found once i took out the transports the jump packs allowed me to say when and where the assaults would take place, and they had to fight when i wanted to, not before. Needless to say against other Blood Angel armies that's huge, BA are fairly average in combat when not charging, and nothing i fought in the tournament got to strike back against my assault terminators when they charged anyways.

[Redo]

I'd say no. Jawaballs got crushed at the 'Ard Boyz tournie from what I understand and I believe he had a lot of Razorbacks.

 

Yeah I read his report and it seemed to me that too many RBs gives out a lot of KP's. THe squads inside cannot really hold their own against even-semidetermined opponents. The RB is itself a fairly fragile 'tank'. In todays mech environment there are a plethora of anti-tank units and high strength weaponry to ensure that this kind a list is not overpowered.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, Razorback spam is far from overpowered. As said, it's the Daemons' inability to easily deal with mechanized armies.

 

This. Demons are one of the worst armys in the current Mech enviourment.

Agreed- probly the best matchup for a Razor-spam army, other than against another razor-spam army or DE.

 

That much AV 11 on the field without heavy armor support, and usually with only small infantry squads, is going to get owned by anyone whos got enough volume of fire to start in on it... and it collapses quickly once it starts taking damage.

 

If you want an army with great damage output that tends to fold if it takes heavy firepower then go play Eldar.

[TheMouth]

not over powered, just annoying. Its not like Vanilla marine players have been doing it for years. :P

[Morticon]

Yeah, Razorback spam is far from overpowered. As said, it's the Daemons' inability to easily deal with mechanized armies.

 

This. Demons are one of the worst armys in the current Mech enviourment.

One of the top players in the country here has been ripping peoplel new ones with his daemons.

He's had no problem with mech and like all situations I believe it boils down to list choices.

 

From what I've seen, daemons have no probs poppin tanks. They just do it differently

[Morticon]

I'd say no. Jawaballs got crushed at the 'Ard Boyz tournie from what I understand and I believe he had a lot of Razorbacks.

 

Yeah I read his report and it seemed to me that too many RBs gives out a lot of KP's. THe squads inside cannot really hold their own against even-semidetermined opponents. The RB is itself a fairly fragile 'tank'. In todays mech environment there are a plethora of anti-tank units and high strength weaponry to ensure that this kind a list is not overpowered.

 

This sums it up perfectly! I played at a big tourney on the weekend- there were 2 razor heavy BA lists-

They didn't make it as far as the other two BA lists ;)

[ps209]

Deamonds do have the ability to deal with armour! but this can be mitigated by simply keeping moving i dont thing this overpowered at all

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If tanks are moving over 6" they are not really doing much else.

 

0b