Stats for VV against Tau battlesuits

[Abraxes]

Hey fellas, I was wondering if any BA brothers have had experience taking on Tau armies that consist of only Tau units with a heavy emphasis on crisis and broadside, IE: no kroot or flying bug thingys. I've had punishing results fighting this particular army in the past when it comes to annihilation games, but now that we have the new codex, I wanted to revisit this enemy so that I can crush the life out of it once and for all.

 

With an annihilation game in mind, I was considering on using 1-2, 5 man VV teams with PWs to pave the road for a mechanized follow-up. I think the VV HI can potentially remove the battlesuit threat as I see it, but has anyone else tried this tactic already? If so, had did you fare in the end?

 

The only units in the Tau arsenal I fear - or is it hate - are the broadsides which are usually centralized and flanked by 2 full teams of FWs at the opposite end of the table. Crisis suits are deployed forward from this in / behind cover to run interference for my approaching army. There isn't a great deal of imagination on my enemies part as he follows true Tau doctrine to the letter. Deploy far away, seize the firing lanes, cower in fear and pick me off as I approach.

 

So basically, I wanted to hear thoughts and ideas from you guys on how to remove communist battlesuits from the battlefield as effectively as possible.

 

I have access to the vast majority of BA models save for a libby-dread and stormraven.

 

 

Thanks in advance as I look forward to hearing what you guys come up with.

 

Cheers!

[Brother Nathan]

havent played tau with my ba ever but from my nids expeiance that should work, if you can get you placing right. especially as you need to be withn 6 inches and can potentially scatter another 6 in any way you coauld end up on top of them or out of range. preferably they would have a backup plan too. baal preds could really help out outflanking to get some shots into one of the target unitsthat you just cant get close enough to, and they chew through firewarrios easily too. just advoid wiping out things on the charge as if you do you will have to endure a round of taue shooting, and that hurts fnp or not...

[Chairman_woo]

Hey fellas, I was wondering if any BA brothers have had experience taking on Tau armies that consist of only Tau units with a heavy emphasis on crisis and broadside, IE: no kroot or flying bug thingys. I've had punishing results fighting this particular army in the past when it comes to annihilation games, but now that we have the new codex, I wanted to revisit this enemy so that I can crush the life out of it once and for all.

 

With an annihilation game in mind, I was considering on using 1-2, 5 man VV teams with PWs to pave the road for a mechanized follow-up. I think the VV HI can potentially remove the battlesuit threat as I see it, but has anyone else tried this tactic already? If so, had did you fare in the end?

 

The only units in the Tau arsenal I fear - or is it hate - are the broadsides which are usually centralized and flanked by 2 full teams of FWs at the opposite end of the table. Crisis suits are deployed forward from this in / behind cover to run interference for my approaching army. There isn't a great deal of imagination on my enemies part as he follows true Tau doctrine to the letter. Deploy far away, seize the firing lanes, cower in fear and pick me off as I approach.

 

So basically, I wanted to hear thoughts and ideas from you guys on how to remove communist battlesuits from the battlefield as effectively as possible.

 

I have access to the vast majority of BA models save for a libby-dread and stormraven.

 

 

Thanks in advance as I look forward to hearing what you guys come up with.

 

Cheers!

 

 

I'd say absolutley yes! Even basic VV will be the end of most battlesuit units especially broadsides, but with a fist or powerweapon or 2 you are almost guaranteed to win (assuming you make your HI range when you DS, if not they are probbably screwed). Unfortuateley however winning the combat is the biggest problem you will face, VV will more often than not smash the suits and send them packing, leaving you at the mercy of the rest of his army for a turn. So personally I would either make the VV as cheap as possible (JP's and nothing else the PW on the sgt. will probbably be plenty) so you can use them as a bit of a suicide unit (165pts isent too bad really if they kill a squad of suits before they go) or if your army can do it deep strike most of it in alongside a couple of units of VV to try and cripple his fire priority (if you can tie up all or most his suits and he has no kroot I think he will really struggle to hurt you enough before you charge with just about everything next turn.

 

I think Tau really wont like our VV if they are relying on their suits, tho bublewraping with firewarriors might make it problematic and force you to do a bit of shooting to clear a path for the VV to assault.

 

Honour guard with meltaguns or plasma probbably deserve a honourable mention, as do pod sternguard or basically anything that can throw out high strength & ap fire after a deep strike move. VV have the advantage of locking the unit in CC if you dont take them down (unless by some miracle they win the combat and make you run away!) and need little in the way of upgrades to do the job.

[Sun Drinker]

I play Tau nearly every game, and Tau cannot stand up to VV in any way shape or form. I run an all jump-pack army and have beaten his Tau army 100% of the time (even on very large tables). Even with tons of crises suits there's simply not enough fire to kill enough marines to make the assaults anything less than wrecking balls. The one thing I'd say is that, with your forces split between JP and mech he'll either take out your VV first so that you can't stop his guns, or ignore them, sacrifice some suits, and trash the rest of your army with his amazing shooting. If you deepstrike your VV, your mech is still getting shot up for a few turns. Against Tau (more than any other army) all JP is almost a guaranteed win (even against a talented Tau player). VV are perfect though for taking out his HQ with heroic intervention, or any suit unit that is giving you trouble. The VV will certainly help, and if they DS early in the game, it'll definitely tip things in your favor. Running mech against Tau is not something I would do (but please, if that's what you want to do, do it) but the VV will definitely help a ton.

 

Good luck brother!

 

Oh also, if you're not DS your vets, get a sanguinary priest up in your VV units to protect them from the huge amounts of shooting they're running through and to make their assaults that much more devastating.

[Blitzkreig]

Thunder Hammers and lots of them. Works against most things.

[Abraxes]

I appreciate the helpful comments brothers. It seems that my anti Tau tactics are somewhere on the same page as most of you guys.

 

For those of you who play heavy on the JP squads, how do you bring them on to the table? IE: do you start off with them on your deployment zone, bring them in via reinforcement deepstrike or something in the middle? If you do rely on deepstrike reinforcement, just how good is the descent of angels rule? I have yet to play with the new codex rules...still assembling and painting some of the newer units.

 

I love mech support, but I much prefer jump troops. There's just something about raining madmen from the sky on arcs of fire.

 

Thanks again.

[Leardinal]

I usually play an almost exclusive JP army. My regular opponents are guard and tau, so I think I can give some advice. I try to start my RAS squads on table, but as far up as I can get them and behind cover if I can. If you are playing long table edges with a 12" deployment zone, you can get most of your RAS in cc on turn two rather then deep striking and waiting a turn. I do Deep Strike my whole army regualry though, and I feel like a jerk for doing it it and my opponent complains, but since they usually set up the table for shooty armys, (all los blocking terrain on edges, they have tables set up before I get there and I don't complain since I want a friendly game atmosphere,) I don't feel as bad.

 

DoA is amazing. It get most, if not all your remaining troops in by turn two. My guard opponents always run a master of the fleet, but with the reroll I almost always get them in. I usually am quite conservative in my deep strike for fear of massive scatter, but know I put my jump packers approximately 4" away from my target, and I have yet to have a mishap. Don't be afraid of the scatter for VV, DoA makes HI possible. My tau opponent lines up his fire warriors in front of his broadsides in cover, so there is always a unit nearby that I can assault if I can't get the broadsides, I simply destroy the fire warriors and move on to the broadside next turn. I try to get a power fist on the vanguards, preferably on a normal veteran but on the sgt if I can't find the points. Broadsides are multi wound with high strength and marine toughness, meaning that a power fist will instikill it. my opponent runs shield drones to accompany the broadsides, which is why I want the power weapon, he will take wounds or I have a 50/50 shot at killing a drone, which means more power fist hits. I have only recently found out they have t4, when I asked before he thought I said str, and so I got stuck in combat with a full RAS squad and a power fist, trying to take down broadsides one wound at a time.

 

hope this helps

[Sun Drinker]

I appreciate the helpful comments brothers. It seems that my anti Tau tactics are somewhere on the same page as most of you guys.

 

For those of you who play heavy on the JP squads, how do you bring them on to the table? IE: do you start off with them on your deployment zone, bring them in via reinforcement deepstrike or something in the middle? If you do rely on deepstrike reinforcement, just how good is the descent of angels rule? I have yet to play with the new codex rules...still assembling and painting some of the newer units.

 

I love mech support, but I much prefer jump troops. There's just something about raining madmen from the sky on arcs of fire.

 

Thanks again.

 

I'd only deepstrike your VV (because of heroic intervention). The rest of your troops will benefit from being on the table together. Deployment zone is quite alright for everything but VV. DoA for me is mainly a way to get heroic intervention to succeed. If you don't deploy your regular JP troops together in your deployment zone you run the risk of having too few on the table at a time (meaning your opponent will be able to focus fire and destroy each new JP squad as it deploys). Also, consider combat squading your Assualt squads (against Tau) because 5 assault troops will still bust up a crises suit team or a fire warrior team, but it stops your Tau opponent from killing a lot of troops with a single firing unit (fire warriors). the most they can kill is 5. also, shield of sanguinius (get a librarian... blood lance scares Tau too) is your friend once your Tau opponent figures out that if he gives all of his crises suits plasma guns he takes away your armor save and your FNP.

[Leardinal]

Sun Drinker I disagree with one part of your comment. DoA lets you reroll the reserve roll, and in my experiance this has brought in all but one or two squads if I deep struck my whole army. While there are certain advantages to deploying an RAS squad, deep strike with DoA means the RAS can drop next to vehicles and high armor units and melt them with melta, and the sheer number of bodies hitting the table usually means the opponent spreads out his fire, instead of focusing one one or two squads

[Gunhead]

Does the Tau player use Shield drones on his broadsides/Crisis's?

 

If not a Melta/Plas heavy HG squad can make a nice mess of most Tau Battlesuit units, while being less vulnerable to DS problems (Too close/Too far away).

[Sun Drinker]

Sun Drinker I disagree with one part of your comment. DoA lets you reroll the reserve roll, and in my experiance this has brought in all but one or two squads if I deep struck my whole army. While there are certain advantages to deploying an RAS squad, deep strike with DoA means the RAS can drop next to vehicles and high armor units and melt them with melta, and the sheer number of bodies hitting the table usually means the opponent spreads out his fire, instead of focusing one one or two squads

 

Brother Leardinal you are correct, DoA really does help a lot. You could even use DoA to reroll your successful DS rolls on the second turn to delay for more to come in on the third turn. I prefer to run as much as I can without deepstriking (with HI it's too sweet not to though). More of a preference I guess, but if you've had good experiences with a lot of deep striking then our battle brother should also take that into account.

[Leardinal]

Sun drinker, I also don't like to deep strike my whole army because I feel like a jerk when I do it, especially if they are going first so they have two turns of nothing to do, but I fight 4 IG players and a tau player, and the terrain seems to be set up for these gun line armies. Against these types of armies it is a good tactic to do massive deep strike, esspecaily with this environment, and sometimes it feels better to land your army after the enemy has two turns to sit there and gripe then just pick up models from your deployment zone from manticore and basiliske fire or broadside fire that can all target diffent targets and 4-8 stealth suites jumping over terrain blitzing you with burst cannons, fusion blasters and markerlights and then jumping behind cover.

[JamesI]

Brother Leardinal you are correct, DoA really does help a lot. You could even use DoA to reroll your successful DS rolls on the second turn to delay for more to come in on the third turn. I prefer to run as much as I can without deepstriking (with HI it's too sweet not to though). More of a preference I guess, but if you've had good experiences with a lot of deep striking then our battle brother should also take that into account.

DoA only works on failed reserve rolls. Can't use it to delay coming in.

[Leardinal]

JamseI is right, just checked the codex. It would make more sense if you could just reroll the reserve roll, but I guess it represents the subtle manipulation of the red thirst in all blood angels, forcing them to jump at any chance to get into battle.

[Abraxes]

Does the Tau player use Shield drones on his broadsides/Crisis's?

 

If not a Melta/Plas heavy HG squad can make a nice mess of most Tau Battlesuit units, while being less vulnerable to DS problems (Too close/Too far away).

 

Gunhead, to answer your question on whether he takes shield drones for his suits, the answer is a yes or at least a 50/50. I've never seen him take SDs for his Broadsides - not sure if all suits can have them or not off hand? - but he always takes shield drones for his Crisis and HQ suits. I really don't care about shields or not as they're rather expensive add-ons and if he buys them, then I know he won't be able to afford certain other pieces of nasty wargear - fingers crossed for most games at least.

 

In fact, the SDs were the very reason I wanted to look into VV with the new DoAs rules. I figured the best way to crack SD equipped suits would be in an assault with PW equipped VV. The combination of DoA and HI is just too good to pass up. 225 pts for 5 guys with PWs and JPs is pretty damn good IMO. Especially if they can remove the biggest enemy firepower unit within the first couple of turns and thus allowing freedom of movement for your remaining troops as they cross the table.

 

I tried VV with the last PDF BA codex. Let's just say that without DoA, I didn't exactly hit my arrival mark very often. Forcing me to shelve any future VV HI attempts until the new codex came out.

 

As for meltas...well, if there's a player on the planet that CANNOT hit with melta weapons of any make or model, then that player would be me. I have wonderful dice rolls with Las, but melta... I'd probably be better off having my marines throw the weapon at the enemy to cause wounds. Anyone else have a weapon / dice curse like mine?

[Leardinal]

Yes broadsides can take shield drones, and they are actually better on Broadsides then other suites. The drone copies its armor from the owner, meaning that it has a 2+ armor, 4+ inv.

 

When you asked if anyone had dice curses like yours I lol'ed. If you watch any game I play, you see that it is not high ap weapons that kill my marines, its lasguns. Not mass amounts of wounds from lasguns, but I can't roll for armor if my life depended on it. That is why I like feel no pain, I almost always save from the horrid armor saves.

 

I have another, the opposite of yours: I can roll melta like a king, but if I fire a lasscannon, even a twinlinked on, I miss almost every shot and if I miraculously hit with one, I do no damage.

 

That may be why I like BA. If you look at my lists: No long range weapons, all assault units and melta guns wherever I can put them. :wub:

[Gunhead]

Yeah, I get the Las problem - back in 3rd? (Might have been 4th) ed I ran a TLLC Dread most games and it hardly ever hit anything.

[GlauG]

I will say, my big hate when playing vs Tau is Markerlights, with Seeker Missiles a close second. Especially as I've started trying to field 2 Stormravens... S8AP1 with infinite range, which can be fired regardless of movement? So the entire mech'd up army can spam 2+ a turn, and that damned Skyray can do something like 4? Add to that Markerlights which can remove your cover save, and make anything in the army have a 2+ to hit... Urgh. Somehow I've always managed to win so far, but that's usually only by very careful use of Assault troops and a lot of luck.

I've had some success with Drop Pod Furiosos deloyed at his flanks for a Libby's Blood Lances VS his armour line on turn 1, and a Frag + HF regular Furioso for any annoying massed troops, but it's all relative, as both of them tend to die quickly vs the amount of anti-armour the surviving Tau can bring to bear. All that said, I might try and fit some Vanguard into my 1500pt list I'm working out lastminute for a Tourney this saturday, and see what happens. JP, one Thunder Hammer, one Storm Shield and maybe a special weapon if I can fit the points...

[Whitefireinferno]

I Have a confession I also play TAU ;) yeah I know this is however the problem tau have these days is the BA codex where Im from most armies I face are some sort of BA army like Ultra Angels and the like against normal Marines Tau are fine but against BA we are lucky to get a single shooting phase before they are on our frontlines.

 

All suits can take drones and sheild drones take on the Armour save that its controler has so on the XV88 its sheild drones become 2+/4++ but the biggest use for drones is to soak up ID hits because once they are gone the suits basicly a big marine so any powerfist instagibb them *unless its the FW XV9 those are T5* BUT one of the best things I have had done to me while playing my Farsight list is to have a unit of 10 or so without any powerweapons lock them in combat for the entire game because face it the XV88 have a crap show in killing stuffin a assault however I have never had a problem with anything short of assault termies assaulting my HQ unit but then he has str5 and Init 5 and a Powerweapon and a WHOLE boatload of ablative wounds something like 10 wounds before it starts loosing firepower and then its 8/16 plasma shots dependant on range and 7 melta shots that can be spilt fire *bloody wolves learning our stuff.

 

But yeah Death to the non Imperium and HAHA we fleshtearers are better than you <_< yeah thats it *runs*

[Angelus Mortifer]

Aside from other stuff mentioned that can do the necessary, I've had decent success removing a Broadside Team or two just with Fear of the Darkness. 6Ld is pretty decent odds, when also considering that practically most Tau armies hug the backfield. JP Libby, Priest and AS deploying as far up as possible if you go first, maybe DSing if not...