Why do Blood Claws have a WS of 3?

[Guest dcxiii]

Hey everyone!

 

I know this is an old question, and I'm sure there are a good many reasons for it.

 

I just wondered if anyone else thought it strange that warriors who have grown up with weapons in their hands, living on as terrible a deathworld as Fenris, from a brutal culture that actively praises skill at arms and prefers close combat, only have a WS of 3. A BS of 3 I can understand perfectly - obviously pistols and bolters are completely new to a Fenrisian, yet swords and axes are not.

 

To add to the comparison, I would suggest the fact that standard SM scouts have a WS of 4, yet are supposed to be just as "new to the job" as Blood Claws.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I really do not mind this at all. I'm sure they get some nice special rules to balance their drop of WS and since I have never used Blood Claws in my SW forces, it has never affected my gameplay. I'm sure balancing solves any potential problems.

 

I was just curious as to what the individuals of the forum thought of this rule. Does anyone else think that it is a little odd?

 

Thanks! ;)

[Gyson_Vore]

All new recruits to the Space Marines have a WS of three. Think of it as the training of their life allows them to have a slightly better weapon skill (like the Guard who are drilled). It is only after they are used to the new enhancements that they improve in skill.

[Niiai]

You need to understand that a WS of 3 is not bad. It is quite good. It is what guardsmen have after some years of hard training training.

 

Making the leap from 3 to 4 however is quite big.

[SpaceWolf13C]

SM scouts dont have a WS of 4, they are 3 just like blood claws. I think you were looking at the sergeant. Imperial Guard soldiers that have grown up their entire lives fighting also only have a ws 3.

[Hfran Morkai]

Someone once brought up the suggestion that Blood Claws might be able to fight at the equivalent of WS4 but they sacrifice precision and defense for pure aggression, hence the Berserk Charge bonus

[Skirax]

IMO, they're still disoriented due to their enhancements. Also, since most troops out there are WS 4, we still hit on 4+, so it's just a fluffy rule. But, we can have 15 in a pack at a very low price, so that's a boost, and we get 4 attacks on the charge, so for shock attack troop choices, the only thing I can think of better is Khorne Berzerkers, and they're really overpriced.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

because Matt Ward didnt write our book.

 

that aside, i think BCs SHOULD be WS4, and leave the BS at 3 to show they arent full marines yet...just hardcore vikings in space wearing power armor and a deep desire to crush you and everything you stand for.

 

WLK

[S. Bloodhowl]

I always thought it to be them getting used to a new body and power armour, and the fact that their nuts

[mitchell93]

Game balance.

[Quillen]

No not game balance.

 

It use to be WS5 and BS3 back in the day in the first codex. They excelled at melee. Cause of their home world.

 

In 3rd edition they changed it to 3 and 3 and they cost less. You also got 3 power fists in the pack so you could take down a monsterous creature and still have an ok squad left. They were worth their points in 3rd edition. Even with the random stat nerf.

 

Now they have 1 power fist. They cost too much and do too little compared to Grey Hunters. Which is why you hardly ever see them now.

 

You know it's true. They are hardly fielded. I have a pack. I will not have a second. Too much for too little, when I can have Grey Hunters whom rock.

 

I honestly think they should have kept the 1 speacial melee weapon per 5 guys. Since the nerf for Fists came down the line it would not have broken them, and heck, if they bump into a monstrous critter they are dead meat these days. They need something to make them worth taking.

[Skirax]

You know it's true. They are hardly fielded. I have a pack. I will not have a second. Too much for too little, when I can have Grey Hunters whom rock.

 

I honestly think they should have kept the 1 speacial melee weapon per 5 guys. Since the nerf for Fists came down the line it would not have broken them, and heck, if they bump into a monstrous critter they are dead meat these days. They need something to make them worth taking.

This. I have only one Pack, and to even make them viable I have to put them in a Crusader with a Wolf Priest and Ragnar.

[Grimtooth]

Huge difference between fighting in pelts and fighting in power armour. That is what I would put down as to the reason they have reduced skills.

[Wysten]

Aye, blood claws at the moment are the only unit I would call a glaring issue in the codex. Problem is our gray hunters are not good that making the Blood Claws that good can really give a nasty knock. Easpically since it's being balienced more or less directly against Blood Angels and Black Templars.

 

Make Claws too good and the other codex's will probably be bitter about how we get the best general infanity with a great assult unit. When you have a tactical squad that is just that great, hard to make a second troops choice that can live up to that legercy without treading on the toes of our fellow assualty codexs (Templars and Blood Angels)

[Grey Mage]

You know it's true. They are hardly fielded. I have a pack. I will not have a second. Too much for too little, when I can have Grey Hunters whom rock.

 

I honestly think they should have kept the 1 speacial melee weapon per 5 guys. Since the nerf for Fists came down the line it would not have broken them, and heck, if they bump into a monstrous critter they are dead meat these days. They need something to make them worth taking.

This. I have only one Pack, and to even make them viable I have to put them in a Crusader with a Wolf Priest and Ragnar.

Ragnar? Thats a waste IMO. They already get 4 attacks, a 1 in 3 chance of 5 just isnt worth the price of a landraider.

[Thunderhawk3015]

From my view, they are young, and not yet as seasoned as Grey Hunters, they are more headstrong/glory hungry and this makes then easier to be fooled/tripped up in close combat(not exactly but you get the idea). Hence WS 3, makes it easier to be hit in keeping with their fluff.

 

Grey Mage, its not the extra attack, its the furious charge that you take Ragnar for so you can clean out what you do attack especially with the new Blood Angels/guard around(S9 powerfists ftw on the charge)

[Grey Mage]

From my view, they are young, and not yet as seasoned as Grey Hunters, they are more headstrong/glory hungry and this makes then easier to be fooled/tripped up in close combat(not exactly but you get the idea). Hence WS 3, makes it easier to be hit in keeping with their fluff.

 

Grey Mage, its not the extra attack, its the furious charge that you take Ragnar for so you can clean out what you do attack especially with the new Blood Angels/guard around(S9 powerfists ftw on the charge)

But if your going to throw in all that expense then just take Wolf Gaurd- 3pts more a peice, and get some real big benefits out of it. 6 attacks on the up, cheaper wargear....

 

Its not like you wont be obliterating hive cities with this unit anyways, who needs the extra 5 guys?

[muadib02]

i belive that it has mostly to do with the combo of the fluff and the to hit chart. WS 3 still hits on 4s until your fighiting ws 6 and up. As such it easily represents that they are good in close combat but not so good as to eclipse their elders..as well as being eiser due to their headstrong nature and youth

[Blitzkreig]

From my view, they are young, and not yet as seasoned as Grey Hunters, they are more headstrong/glory hungry and this makes then easier to be fooled/tripped up in close combat(not exactly but you get the idea). Hence WS 3, makes it easier to be hit in keeping with their fluff.

 

Grey Mage, its not the extra attack, its the furious charge that you take Ragnar for so you can clean out what you do attack especially with the new Blood Angels/guard around(S9 powerfists ftw on the charge)

But if your going to throw in all that expense then just take Wolf Gaurd- 3pts more a peice, and get some real big benefits out of it. 6 attacks on the up, cheaper wargear....

 

Its not like you wont be obliterating hive cities with this unit anyways, who needs the extra 5 guys?

 

Ragnar Blackmane = 240 Points

Wolf Priest w/ Wolftooth Necklace = 110 Points

10 Wolf Guard w/ 8 Frost Blades & 2 Power Fists = 380 Points

Land Raider Redeemer w/ Extra Armour = 255 Points

 

Watching your 985 Point unit smash its way through 2 Chaos Rhinos before doing a bootleg turn drawing the flamestorm cannon dead even with the vision slit of a bunker before opening fire to decimate the unit inside while the machine spirit decimates one of the chaos units who's rhino you just blew up while Ragnar and his boys jump out, charge at the other unit and score 3 bonus attacks from insane bravado = Priceless.

[jmurph]

Who knows- carryover from 3 ed most likely.

 

But, as mentioned, they got nerfed a bit hard. What I would like to see is them have special CCW options like the GHs have with special weapons. So a PSword for free or wolf claw at 5 or PFist at 10. At 10, you get a second. At 15 a third.

 

Lose the silly current headstrong and charge and replace it with Furious Charge and Rage and +1 attack when not lead by a pack leader. Only 1 special weapon pick, though. Give them a special rule that when lead, they lose Rage, the extra attack, and fight at WS 4. Or maybe just make them always WS 4. Either way, it means they perform differently if alone or lead. So they can be a reckless force of destruction, or a bit more focused. Gives them a role that is different from GHs.

 

Also, skyclaws should be able to get a WG packleader.

[Thunderhawk3015]

Watching someones 985 points die to a horde of nids or orks. That is priceless. You just spent that much on elites when you could have gotten a Blood claw squad with a powerfist and part of a grey hunter squad for that same cost and chewed down that horde with combined fire from the land raider, grey hunters and then the blood claws shooting followed by an assault that cleans up.

 

I use my blood claws as the broom to sweep up the remainder. Death stars are cool, untill they get bogged down and chewed up by numbers/massed fire and those extra 5 guys are 5 extra wounds you can take from shooting after your initial assault.

[WG Vrox]

Agreed, overall our blood claws are overpriced and do too little when compared to the best troops in the game our beloved Grey Hunters.

 

I don't think you will see any changes made to the current blood claws until our next dex. Much like Long Fangs that where hardly used in 3rd, are now a staple to most lists. The reason they did this was because they knew they where overpriced in 3rd and made sure they would be popular again in our current codex. So I guess we only have to wait 7 or 8 years to see their comeback. I am sure it will be glorious.

 

-Vrox

[LoneSniperSG]

I suppose it could be a fluff reason that the BC's are now what they are, perhaps the entire design was to make us have less, thus looking fluffy with only a few scattered new blood squads.

[Blitzkreig]

Watching someones 985 points die to a horde of nids or orks. That is priceless. You just spent that much on elites when you could have gotten a Blood claw squad with a powerfist and part of a grey hunter squad for that same cost and chewed down that horde with combined fire from the land raider, grey hunters and then the blood claws shooting followed by an assault that cleans up.

 

I use my blood claws as the broom to sweep up the remainder. Death stars are cool, untill they get bogged down and chewed up by numbers/massed fire and those extra 5 guys are 5 extra wounds you can take from shooting after your initial assault.

 

I never said I would use that unit... in Apocalypse I might but I usually just use Sternhammers Wulfen Guard and take as many wulfen as I can ;)

 

Besides, I tend to run either a Logan list or a balanced force where I use Grey Hunters for everything that Blood Claws can do. As far as I'm concerned Ragnar is just a huge point sink.

[Skirax]

You know it's true. They are hardly fielded. I have a pack. I will not have a second. Too much for too little, when I can have Grey Hunters whom rock.

 

I honestly think they should have kept the 1 speacial melee weapon per 5 guys. Since the nerf for Fists came down the line it would not have broken them, and heck, if they bump into a monstrous critter they are dead meat these days. They need something to make them worth taking.

This. I have only one Pack, and to even make them viable I have to put them in a Crusader with a Wolf Priest and Ragnar.

Ragnar? Thats a waste IMO. They already get 4 attacks, a 1 in 3 chance of 5 just isnt worth the price of a landraider.

It's not for the extra Attacks, but for the Furious Charge and the fact that I have a reliable model in the unit who can eat through most things. Plus, the Crusader is there so that they can maximise on the hard-hitting power they provide. Without it, they would trudge across the field, attracting a lot of fire, and getting obliterated before they even could pull a trigger.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Ragnar is the only way to get furious charge in a Space Wolf list, and we know how good that is.

 

He's pricey, and fragile, but in those moments where only initiative 5 will do...