Ork super Nobz

[KhorneHunter57x]

*double post-ignore/delete*

[greatcrusade08]

Also remember that the warboss is going to be striking last and he will probably only touch 2 or 3 models or maybe only one. If they kill some models with the nobs and you don't care about what is touching the war boss, kill the models touchign him before he can go. He is an independent character which means he has to be in base to base contact in order to swing his weapon. If he is only touching one marine and the nobs kill one, then kill that guy. You just saved yourself a bunch of armor save ignoring power claw attacks. This is a normal tactic for any independdent character with a slow weapon. Don't let them swing it.

This doesn't work in 5th ed. Units get to determine how many attacks they get to make before they swing.

 

 

I think hes talking about wound allocation at different initiatives, any wounds you take stack as many as possible on the guys in B2B with lower initiative ICs..

 

In this instance becuase the rest of the unit has no power weapons then youd have to get lucky to fail the saves of those two/three guys in contact with the warboss... its worth a go, but i wouldnt rely on it.. instead as hes at I1 why no try to kill him earlier.. his 5-6 PK attacks will hurt alot more than double the number of regular boys

[Captain Idaho]

Sorry I don't follow? Stack wounds on the ones in base contact with the ICs? Not sure I can see why?

[KhorneHunter57x]

Also remember that the warboss is going to be striking last and he will probably only touch 2 or 3 models or maybe only one. If they kill some models with the nobs and you don't care about what is touching the war boss, kill the models touchign him before he can go. He is an independent character which means he has to be in base to base contact in order to swing his weapon. If he is only touching one marine and the nobs kill one, then kill that guy. You just saved yourself a bunch of armor save ignoring power claw attacks. This is a normal tactic for any independdent character with a slow weapon. Don't let them swing it.

This doesn't work in 5th ed. Units get to determine how many attacks they get to make before they swing.

 

I think hes talking about wound allocation at different initiatives, any wounds you take stack as many as possible on the guys in B2B with lower initiative ICs..

 

In this instance becuase the rest of the unit has no power weapons then youd have to get lucky to fail the saves of those two/three guys in contact with the warboss... its worth a go, but i wouldnt rely on it.. instead as hes at I1 why no try to kill him earlier.. his 5-6 PK attacks will hurt alot more than double the number of regular boys

Initiative order does not matter. If the Warboss was engaged with anyone at the start of the combat he will still get to attack (assuming that the squad he was engaged with still has survivors). From page 37 of the BRB:

When their Initiative value is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack. It does not matter if all the enemies that they were engaged with have been killed - if a model was engaged at the start of the fight (and is still alive when its turn to attack comes) it can still attack.

[greatcrusade08]

When their Initiative value is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack. It does not matter if all the enemies that they were engaged with have been killed - if a model was engaged at the start of the fight (and is still alive when its turn to attack comes) it can still attack.

 

Ah, i didnt realise this, my games club have been playing it the oither way for a long time... ill have to put a stop to that, i once had 7 calgar attacks denied due to that... dammit

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Well logically i guess it makes sense that if you're in a close combat brawl and you're fighting away and another marine kills the ork you were aiming at before you do, you wouldnt just stand there blankly looking at the ork you were going to slay lying in a pool of its own blood on the floor thinking 'oh dear thats my chance to do something epic gone' , you'd charge in and hit someone else instead!

[Dragax]

Ork Nobs with Big choppas and Waagh banners on the charge out out 4 Str7, WS5, i4 attacks, and as far as i remember the pain boy does confeer FnP onto all units he is with, best bet is just pie plate it with vindies or just try and ignore it completly, Since the Boss is in Mega armor he gets Slow and Purposeful so really he just slows the blob down with out transport.

[mowglie]

Seriously, Honour Guard have a mountain of attacks that strike before the Orks.

 

Only if you get the charge.

 

Bear in mind that the OP's opponent isn't playing wound allocation games. It'll get much worse once he figures that out.

 

The vindicator is the best solution.

[DerekLee688]

I'm confused on 4xML Devestators vs. 4xPC. Missiles get S:8 AP:3 instant death and PC's get AP:2 template. Both ignore FNP but who gets the 2+ armor save?

 

I normaly run vanilla marines who don't use a counter assault unit. I'm not using a vindi until I get a second, so that leaves me my four typhoons, rifle dread, combi-pred, and possibly a devistator squad for long range. If I leave the Rifle dread plus combi-pred to pop transports, the devs can lay down templates on infantry, and typhoons can do either.

[Jarl Bloodwolf]

Ork Nobs with Big choppas and Waagh banners on the charge out out 4 Str7, WS5, i4 attacks, and as far as i remember the pain boy does confeer FnP onto all units he is with, best bet is just pie plate it with vindies or just try and ignore it completly, Since the Boss is in Mega armor he gets Slow and Purposeful so really he just slows the blob down with out transport.

 

I don't want to seem rude but I'm not sure why you're posting the altered stats? I'm an Ork player I know what the totals come out to :P I just didn't know if the pain boys FnP effects the War Boss since he isn't originally apart of the unit. And I don't think ignoring it is such a good idea as a unit like that can cause some damage if you let it just run around. As far as mobility he took a chance and it payed off with the Weird Boy but he also had a Battlewagon so transporting woulden't have been a problem

[Odsox]

As many people have already suggested my preferred method for dealing with any scary unit, mentioning lots of Devastators, Vindicators, etc., I'll sum up my own, almost identical method in the orky fashion.

 

Ahem.

 

"GUNS, GUNS, GUNS, GUNS!"

 

That is all.

 

Od.

[Captain Idaho]

Seriously, Honour Guard have a mountain of attacks that strike before the Orks.

Bear in mind that the OP's opponent isn't playing wound allocation games. It'll get much worse once he figures that out.

 

I enjoy using wound allocation against Orks. Soften them up with a handful of wounds with shooting 1st then when you charge the Ork player will be removing whole models from single S4 wounds :P

[mowglie]

I enjoy using wound allocation against Orks. Soften them up with a handful of wounds with shooting 1st then when you charge the Ork player will be removing whole models from single S4 wounds :P

 

Against a proper Nobz squad?

 

Um. Unless you've softened him up with like 10 wounds already, no you won't. 10 wounds is what? 120 bolter shots? 180 if they're on bikes?

 

Taking them on without ID is a mistake.

 

You're also assuming you get the charge vs a unit that can become fleet and possibly has an assault transport or a 12" move.

[greatcrusade08]

I enjoy using wound allocation against Orks. Soften them up with a handful of wounds with shooting 1st then when you charge the Ork player will be removing whole models from single S4 wounds :P

 

Against a proper Nobz squad?

 

Um. Unless you've softened him up with like 10 wounds already, no you won't. 10 wounds is what? 120 bolter shots? 180 if they're on bikes?

 

Taking them on without ID is a mistake.

 

You're also assuming you get the charge vs a unit that can become fleet and possibly has an assault transport or a 12" move.

 

Actually any geat tactician can do this, but you also underestimate the HG, sheer number of Pw attacks can beat just about anything, alsong as they are I4 or less that is..

The nobs unit above would really struggle against the 2+ sves of Hg, in return they wil lose alot of guys to the HG, win combat and cause more wounds or run them down... problem solved

[mowglie]

Actually any geat tactician can do this, but you also underestimate the HG, sheer number of Pw attacks can beat just about anything, alsong as they are I4 or less that is..

The nobs unit above would really struggle against the 2+ sves of Hg, in return they wil lose alot of guys to the HG, win combat and cause more wounds or run them down... problem solved

 

If your advice for getting the charge is "be better than your opponent", that's fine. If you only play people worse than you. Personally, I don't think that's very helpful. If you and your opponent are equal, the nobs have a much easier time getting the charge than the HG.

 

Also, sorry I think you're overestimating the HG. You say "they will lose a lot of guys". How many do you think 5 HG kill on the charge?

 

I think on average they kill 1, and then I think the nobs + boss wipe them out. Do you disagree?

 

Granted, the nobs are more expensive, but you're still much better off with something that causes ID.

 

The big lesson to take away is that the OP's opponent's nob squad is a really bad one. He could be abusing wound allocation much more (for not many more points) and the HG fare even worse.

[greatcrusade08]

im not in the moodd for a protracted argument.. you obviously know best.. which makes you myn favourite type of player to match against

[Captain Idaho]

I think on average they kill 1, and then I think the nobs + boss wipe them out. Do you disagree?

 

Granted, the nobs are more expensive, but you're still much better off with something that causes ID.

 

I disagree!

 

I have done it myself. Sure against a unit of 10 Nobz + Warboss then 5 guys + Chapter Master are going to struggle, but if the guy want's like for like then you can even the odds nicely.

 

Consider this;

 

Using my usual Honour Guard combo (ease of reference and it seems that Idaho-pattern HG are popular on other sites too) they can easily get the charge againt Orks. We can debate this of course, but we all know that Orks with an uber death squad will struggle to bring the enough firepower to neutralise our vehicles easily at range, especially early game. I have never struggled to counter charge Nobz at least.

 

Though I hate Math-Hammer, yours is off. 2 wounds against T4 models on the charge? Get out of it! :)

 

The Master brings 5 S6 attacks hitting 1st on a 3+. The Champion duplicates that, though against Nobz with a Banner he hits on a 4+.

 

The rest of the unit has 5 attacks each totalling 20, hits on a 4+ and wounds on 4+.

 

Pure Math-hammer means the 4 Honour Guard themselves will get 5 wounds then the Ork player gets to make Cybork saves at 5+, maybe saving 2. That is still 3 wounds added to the CM's 2 and the Champions 2 (or so, I'm not expert at maths so feel free to prove me wrong, but I have been conservative here) for a total average 7.

 

If the squad is 5 strong then each model will suffer 1 wound and then 2 will suffer another 1 each, meaning a total 2 dead. Combat resolution 8.

 

The Orks in return will struggle. The Warboss will likely be against the squad and is a danger, hitting on a 3+ and wounding on 2+ with maybe even 5 Attacks (attack squig has to included!). He will average about the same wounds as the CM, though without an invulnerable save in return they will likely suffer 3 dead from him. Getting the charge against the Orks it is fairly simple to engage a power klaw model with the Master, who will likely survive unscathed considering the Nob needs a 4+, followed by a 2+ and then relies on a failed 3+. The last 2 Orks will likely be the Painboy and another Power klaw, who even if they kill the last 2 of the squad the Orks still lose resolution (which drops to 7 with no Banner bearer) by 2.

 

This doesn't take into account the Champion being in base contact with the Warboss (getting 5 attacks re-rolling failed wounds and hits) or even ganging up on him with another squad member to take away his power klaw before it strikes.

 

Throw some firepower at them before charging and just 2 wounds on the unit means they suffer quite badly against the HG, actually losing out by quite a margin. 2 existing wounds on the unit means 4 die out to the squads attacks in the basic example above. A wound on the Warboss means the Champion can likely kill him before he strikes on his own, drastically throwing things in favour of the Space Marines.

 

That's not bad considering the price of 5 Ork Nobz with a 5+ invulnerable save and enough upgrades to take advantage of wound allocation being more than 225pts generally.

 

Ultimately, Space Marine armies should be used as well organised team, so it is perfectly viable to use a bit of supporting fire on a unit before hitting them with your own assault unit in combat. This doesn't make the Honour Guard poor at their job, as in this situation you will have the numbers left to follow on into the rest of the Ork army, as they strike before the whole Ork army even when being charged. Fighting a 20+ strong unit of Orks will hurt a Terminator squad that strikes last all the time.

 

***EDIT*** Speed wise, I'm fairly confident that the Orks will suffer the charge against HG. The Marine player has the luxary of the Ork player being forced to attack the Space Marines which means less firepower and more of a chance for HG to charge them as the Orks will have to bash through a transport first and the HG can just disembark.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I'd throw longfangs with missile launchers at them for as long as possible, and then clean them up with your CC troops, just make sure you get the charge however. hit them with melta on the way in

 

hey atleast hes not taking 2 battle wagons and steamrolling you thats a whole nother topic

[mowglie]

If the squad is 5 strong then each model will suffer 1 wound and then 2 will suffer another 1 each, meaning a total 2 dead. Combat resolution 8.

 

While I don't dispute your math-hammer, I make your unit 395 points, not 225. The Ork unit you've chosen for comparison is ~300 points of straw man. Sure, when you assume you always get the charge with a unit worth 25% more, you win, you tactical genius you! :o

 

A decent unit of Boss with PK, AS, 10 cybork nobs with Painboy, 2 Klaws, Bosspole, Banner is still only like 455 points (first unit I could find on the Waaagh). As you say, your HG are going to struggle with that.

 

They certainly win combat vs the OP's opponent's squad, though, due to lack of klaws. Not sure you'll win in the end (bosspole makes them hard to break, and HG don't take casualties very well), but as you say pointless comparing the combat in a vacuum. You have more squads which can interfere, and the ork player probably has like a million more orks on hand...

 

You'll be grinning if your CM's bombardment hits them though!

[Captain Idaho]

They certainly win combat vs the OP's opponent's squad, though, due to lack of klaws. Not sure you'll win in the end (bosspole makes them hard to break, and HG don't take casualties very well), but as you say pointless comparing the combat in a vacuum. You have more squads which can interfere, and the ork player probably has like a million more orks on hand...

 

You'll be grinning if your CM's bombardment hits them though!

 

Yeah that OP Nobz unit would probably struggle against a Tactical squad ha! :D

 

But you are right, I would rather send the HG in against the Ork boyz and shoot his Nobz to pieces. That's what the HG do best (i.e. work as a bully unit).

 

While I don't dispute your math-hammer, I make your unit 395 points, not 225. The Ork unit you've chosen for comparison is ~300 points of straw man.

 

Oh, sorry, I was only referring to squads and omitting the Warboss and CM. I'm not sure on the points comparison of a Warboss.

 

A decent unit of Boss with PK, AS, 10 cybork nobs with Painboy, 2 Klaws, Bosspole, Banner is still only like 455 points (first unit I could find on the Waaagh). As you say, your HG are going to struggle with that.

 

20 Wounds on a unit with a 5+ invulnerable and FNP for just 455pts?! Please tell me that includes a Warboss! Typical Orks eh.

 

Not sure I would bother to counter that with my own uber unit. For kicks and giggles, I can make an HG squad with 10 models, Banner and Relic Blade Champion (or Thunder Hammer, what ever floats your boat) for 400pts on the dot. That's got to make a dent?! I make it about 10-11 wounds on the charge plus what ever the Champion achieves?

 

Hmm, still not a combat I would relish.

 

Pah, just shoot 'em! :D

[greatcrusade08]

atually id just send in a tac squad to support the idaho patetrn HG.. the tac squad with power sword should inflict another 4 wounds ish, plus pistols on the way in should get another 2.. add that to the 7 from HG and thats 13 wounds.. youd be stupid not to have caused 3-4 wounds on the unit beforehand, so it shouldnt be too much hassle to dish out some pain.. of course i havent accounted for painboy but you get the point.

[Mysticaria]

Problem with Nobs is that you have to do about 10 wounds before you kill a single one. Even with an ubber squad you are only going to kill 1-2 Orks even if you get the charge... and then they get to attack back. I suppose if we are arguing what it would take to stop a 200 point Nob squad with no upgrades and no wound allocation tricks then it gets a little easier... but really what is the point? Seems like most times you would expect to play against a good unit rather than an average one. Learning how to kill mediocre units isn't really advancng the tactical knowledge here. All that aside, the 'best' way to handle good nobs or bad nobs would be the vindicator. Only real chance to instakill multiple models in one go without stacking a bunch of useless wounds on them. Also, at the going rate of around 2 vindicators per nob squad, seems like the cheapest as well. You can argue about close combat solutions all you want, but there is no way to say they are better than a vindicator against this target.

 

-Myst

[Captain Idaho]

That's the thing, stacking wounds on them is not useless. Having several wounds on the unit makes them vulnerable to assaults as they can't afford to put wounds on models without losing them.

[Mysticaria]

That's the thing, stacking wounds on them is not useless. Having several wounds on the unit makes them vulnerable to assaults as they can't afford to put wounds on models without losing them.

I'm missing the part where killing them outright with a vindicator shell is worse.

 

-Myst

[Captain Idaho]

What if you don't use Vindicators? What if it's dead? What if, what if what if?

 

You sometimes need a counter charge.