Radicals

[greatcrusade08]

Do you think the ordo malleus can afford to have radicals.. in the grey knights book one of the 'older' medics (400ish) says that radicals are the greatest threat to ordo malleus.

It reminds me of the old saying about dancing with the devil.

 

what do you think?

[Chengar Qordath]

I would say that, to some degree, Radicals are a necessary and vital part of the Inquisition. Sometimes the tools and methods employed by Radicals are the only way to get the job done; sometimes a Daemonhost is the only tool available to stop a raging Chaos Titan that could devastate entire worlds if left unchecked. The Recongregators do have a point; it's hard to deny that the Imperium has flaws that need correcting.

 

Of course, one always needs to consider the fact that some Radicals go too far, but the Inquisition has ways of dealing with them. According to the Radical's Handbook, the major Radical factions generally try to police themselves and deal with members who go too far on their own whenever possible. It makes sense; when one Xanthite or Istvaanian crosses way too far over the line it causes trouble for the rest of them.

[Doomaflatchi]

Ravenor himself believed that Radicals were the natural evolution of the Inquisition - Puritanism is born ultimately out of ignorance, and while ignorance can stem the tide of the daemonic, it can only be stopped by those with knowledge of it.

 

Are they dangerous? Of course. Are they necessary? Absolutely.

[chaplain belisarius]

personally i always liked the puritans-especially the monodominants! :D

[WolfGuardVortek]

I, for one, have always seen Puritans as Ignorant at best and actively harming the Imperium at worse. That said, using daemon hosts or weapons, or the powers of sorcery should never be used without grave need and careful consideration.

[Judanas]

I, for one, have always seen Puritans as Ignorant at best and actively harming the Imperium at worse. That said, using daemon hosts or weapons, or the powers of sorcery should never be used without grave need and careful consideration.

 

And I see it the other way around, Radicals are too dangerous for their own good and the more reasonable Puritan groups (Thorians) are the best way. Radicals do mare harm than good as I see it. Except Xenos Hybris, those guys are cool.

[Justicar Valius]

Radials, are... a problem that will never be rooted out, they are the next logical step, however they do their bit for the most part. We will never be without them, so the pondering of this matter is moot.

[Captain Idaho]

People say that Radicals are neccessary in fighting the forces of Chaos, but perhaps we should consider a body of warriors whose primary purpose is to hunt and destroy Daemons and the forces of Chaosl; the Grey Knights.

 

How many of them are Radicals? They fight Chaos without resorting to such measures, so is it really neccessary?

 

Some food for thought.

[greatcrusade08]

I agree, there is no need for radicals, although im sure if they didnt have results they wouldnt be tolerated

[Celestin]

Personally, my take on it is that, deep down inside, the Inquisition worries about what Niemöller wrote. If they purged all the radicals, then you'd have nobody to compare the puritans against, and soon you'd have another purge to rid the more 'radical' of the puritans, until only a single ideology was left. And since a single ideology would be less adaptable, it would be less capable of dealing with the ever-changing forces of Chaos. The conflict within the Inquisition is a source of strength, not weakness, and they know that even attempting to purge any elements perceived as unsavoury would do more harm than good unless absolutely necessary.

[Chengar Qordath]

People say that Radicals are neccessary in fighting the forces of Chaos, but perhaps we should consider a body of warriors whose primary purpose is to hunt and destroy Daemons and the forces of Chaosl; the Grey Knights.

 

How many of them are Radicals? They fight Chaos without resorting to such measures, so is it really neccessary?

 

Some food for thought.

The Grey Knights can do a great job of containing the forces of Chaos without having to make any of the compromises a Radical needs to. Being a powerful psyker, a Space Marine, and having the best weapons and armor the Imperium can make allows that; they're the strongest Puritan force the Imperium has ever fielded.

 

The Grey Knights do, however, suffer from one slight problem; there are not nearly enough of them to deal with all of Chaos by themselves. The Imperium is incredibly huge, and often there are no Grey Knights available to deal with any Chaos incursions; the average underground Chaos cult on any loyal Imperial planet outnumbers the Grey Knights, and then there are the hordes of Chaos Space Marines, the Lost and the Damned, and the numberless Daemons. When an Inquisitor does not have a couple dozen psychic super-soldiers handy (and they almost never will), said Inquisitor needs to have other options for dealing with whatever threatens the Imperium.

[Captain Idaho]

The Grey Knights do, however, suffer from one slight problem; there are not nearly enough of them to deal with all of Chaos by themselves. The Imperium is incredibly huge, and often there are no Grey Knights available to deal with any Chaos incursions; the average underground Chaos cult on any loyal Imperial planet outnumbers the Grey Knights, and then there are the hordes of Chaos Space Marines, the Lost and the Damned, and the numberless Daemons. When an Inquisitor does not have a couple dozen psychic super-soldiers handy (and they almost never will), said Inquisitor needs to have other options for dealing with whatever threatens the Imperium.

 

Agreed. But then does that mean the Inquisitor has to deviate from the methods of the Grey Knights so much? Of course infilitration is needed, but utilising the Daemons of the foe and their relics? I have my doubts. It feels more like lazy excorcism.

 

Makes for interesting twists, but the Ultramarine in me thinks if it's good enough for the Grey Knights then it's good enough for me ;)

[ArmouredWing]

I'd agree that radicals are not necessary for fighting the ruinous powers but then the question would be why they exist in the first place.

 

There's 2 reasons by my thinking. The first is that no matter how resolute an =][= may be they'll eventually have to make a decision that is in opposition to their puritan methods or put another way they'll face a no win situation where they have to fall from the rightous path. Eisenhorn was a good example, what was better, dieing in the service of the emperor knowing that chaos was going to win or employing unorthadox methods to ensure survival and be able to continue the fight? Tough decision.

 

The other reason could be directly compared to the likes of the CIA operating in afghanistan during the 80's to fight the red army. There are times when subterfuge can be seen as the best way of acheiving a goal. They used a force (the Mujihadeen) that would unltimitely become an enemy in the form of the Taliban but back in the day the combined force of the CIA & Mujihadeen ensured that the red army suffered a major defeat. When looking at it from that angle radicals could be considered to be the 'blacks ops' of the inquisition. Not strictly approved or recognised for their methods but effective at a given task none the less.

 

GK's on the other hand can't really be compared to inquisitors because they are more of a hit squad who go in either having identified an obvious threat or having been directed by an inquisitor who has done the investigative ground work and then needs a military strike to eliminate the threat. In either case though the GK's haven't got the ability to conduct discreet investigation like an inquisitor can do. Their size and their methods do not allow for that type of work.

[Captain Idaho]

Well said.

 

Yeah it always boils down to human nature and the decisions we make. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but on the ground you have to make the decisions as you see them.

 

Radicals are inevitable, I feel. The Grey Knights can't be everywhere and aren't going to be infiltrating a Cult very easily, so the more malleble humans are there to fill the gap.

[greatcrusade08]

im more of a die fighting than betray your principles kinda person... the idea of radicalism is anethema to me

[Piousservant]

The comparison between the Grey Knights and the Inquisitors is misleading, I feel. Though they have the same aim, protect the Imperium, defeat Daemons, etc, their purpose and roles are very different. Grey Knights are Astartes, they are warriors first and foremost. An Inquisitor is not, he roots out heresy and treason amongst the Imperium. He is, broadly speaking, an investigator. He is, hah, inquisitive.

 

One of the opening sections in the Inquisitor rulebook (an in-universe report for the High Lords) puts across very well how important the wide variety of opinions, views and philosophies within the Inquisition is. The nature of an Inquisitors role requires him to be independent and able to think for himself, rather than being wholly indoctrinated to a singular view. The Inquisition is filled with shades of grey, so there is no black and white answer. What exactly do you mean by "radical" after all? One Inquisitors radical is another Inquisitors puritan and one Inquisitors radical is another Inquisitors traitor... Views differ greatly on what is radical or puritan, let alone what is acceptable or sensible or best. Taken as a whole many would consider the Inquisitions diversity to be its greatest strength.

 

In short, yes, the Inquisition needs its "radicals" as well as its "puritans".

[ArmouredWing]

im more of a die fighting than betray your principles kinda person... the idea of radicalism is anethema to me

That's why the GK's probably appeal to you. When it comes to principle they don't budge but in the same vein their kind of action is what drives chaos cells to live underground away from plain sight. Although effective the question remains does their overt action result in a better imperium or worse? ...or to put it another way does their living solely in the light also blind them?

 

The other thing to consider is whether it is better to let chaos win outright and swiftly or whether it is better to 'fall back', regroup and continue the fight knowing that you've been exposed to chaos but you'll take as many with you on your way out?

[Captain Idaho]

The other thing to consider is whether it is better to let chaos win outright and swiftly or whether it is better to 'fall back', regroup and continue the fight knowing that you've been exposed to chaos but you'll take as many with you on your way out?

 

The puritan in me says let them win rather than betray my principles, as they may win a single battle but there is always the greater war to win - and Chaos can fight it without my soul!

 

Strange eh, as I understand the need for infiltration and what not and don't consider that to be neccessarily radical behaviour, it's using the Daemon Hosts and the like that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

[greatcrusade08]

the good thing about being a puritan, is that you dont have to consider these things.. you just do or die, fight the enemy with your dieing breath. lead others to greatness by example...

 

no falling back, no letting an iota of chaos permeat your existance.. chaos continues becuase it is allowed to :)

[chaplain belisarius]

i love the monodominant puritans myself....

[Eddie Orlock]

the good thing about being a puritan, is that you don't have to consider these things..

Man, all this thinking stuff is hard. :huh:

 

I've always enjoyed a touch of radicalism, I think it comes from the halcyon days of pre-3rd when my Imperial forces could freely ally themselves with like minded Xeno to beat back the darkness.

 

It's a bit like organised crime. You'll have a tough time catching the don if you never learn from the two-bit hoods.

[xa0s]

Seriously, if you haven't read Eisenhorn, I would highly suggest it for it pretty much parallels to this thread of radicalism, thorianism, puritianism, etc. Sometimes, the job needs to be done orthodox, or unorthodox, for the Inquisition. However, you can bet your pretty behind the other inquisitors will be hunting you down, regardless of which point of view you hold.

[Chengar Qordath]

im more of a die fighting than betray your principles kinda person... the idea of radicalism is anethema to me

The thing is, an Inquisitor has duties that are a lot higher than their personal principles. I can get being willing to give your life for what you believe in, but when Inquisitors die and let the Imperium's enemies succeed it tends to result in millions of loyal imperial citizens dying. It's one thing to die for your principles, it's something else when you expect millions of other people to die for them too.

[Myxx]

To paraphrase... "when one looks into the abyss, the abyss looks into you..."

[ArmouredWing]

To paraphrase... "when one looks into the abyss, the abyss looks into you..."

Ah, Nietzsche. The ultimate radical to some, the ultimate heretic to others...