Stormravens, Thunderhawks Transporters and ceramic plating

[Redo]

I was just thinking that Stormravens and Tunderhawk transporters have ceramic plating to help them survive and make atmospheric re-entry possible. What is curious is that both these flyers can transport vehicles externally...Rhinos, Razorbacks, Landraiders, Dreadnoughts etc

 

Anyone find it strange that these models do not have ceramic plating. Afterall they will be exposed to the extreme heat as well...

 

I keep thinking about to the Columbia accident and I think if this vehicle could not survive re-entry with just a few tiles damaged how can these vehicles survive with no protection. Sure glad that I am not a Space Marine getting transported in a tank as it attempts re-entry...

 

What do you guys think?

[Vor]

Good question. In terms of fluff I expect they would have to have some form of protection, but it would be far too OP in terms of gameplay.

 

Then again, I would expect a Dreadnought and Rhino 38,000 years from now would be made of far stronger materials than a space shuttle today is. So maybe they can cope with the odd re-entry now and then, while the Stromravens and Thunderhawks need the added protection because they're making re-entry far more often.

[tahrikmili]

I think this is a game.. about space marines fighting demons.. so yeah..

[Brother Xeones]

I think this is a game.. about space marines fighting demons.. so yeah..

This.

[Prosedragon]

Has anybody else noticed that these type comments (the above two) come up any time someone questions an inconsistency, or looks "too deeply" at a rule? This is just a game, but you're browsing a forum dedicated to the game - you're probably pretty deep into it too. The thinly veiled condescension such comments display bothers me.

 

Regarding OP's question - I'd say its likely the thunderhawks and storm ravens get thicker armor because they go back and forth, rather than landing and having time to get repaired before going through the atmosphere again, as Vor said.

 

It looks like a deepstriking land raider would need the ceramic plating, getting dropped through the atmosphere and landing on the ground with no padding or anything....

[Brother Jim]

I've actually thought about this issue too, and the solution that I've come up with is that the Thunderhawk/Stormraven performs the re-entry maneuver inverted, so the carried vehicle is shielded by the transport's hull, and then flips over to upright flight once it's in the lower atmosphere and is flying at "normal" speeds. I got the idea from an episode of Firefly, where a Reaver's ship that's pursuing Serenity performs an inverted re-entry maneuver into a planet's atmosphere... ;)

[tahrikmili]

Has anybody else noticed that these type comments (the above two) come up any time someone questions an inconsistency, or looks "too deeply" at a rule? This is just a game, but you're browsing a forum dedicated to the game - you're probably pretty deep into it too. The thinly veiled condescension such comments display bothers me.

 

Regarding OP's question - I'd say its likely the thunderhawks and storm ravens get thicker armor because they go back and forth, rather than landing and having time to get repaired before going through the atmosphere again, as Vor said.

 

It looks like a deepstriking land raider would need the ceramic plating, getting dropped through the atmosphere and landing on the ground with no padding or anything....

 

I don't mean to derail the topic but since it's more than slightly adressed towards me..

 

Being deep into a 'game' doesn't necessarily mean being fascinated by its (in my opinion) mediocre fiction. I also enjoy playing videogames and I have no illusions about the quality of their storytelling.. There are many things I love about this hobby (painting, gaming, etc.) but the fluff would certainly not find a place near the top of my list..

 

Pardon me if I offended anybody, I realize a lot of people thoroughly enjoy the 40K fluff, if I stepped on your sensibilities, I aplogize. I enjoy it to a degree, but my enjoyment of it is more akin to my enjoyment of B-movies more than anything. The 40K universe is a mish-mash of modern world cultures spread across a galaxy, fantasy races in space and shameless rip-offs of existing fiction works held loosely together by a science-fiction that is more fantasy than science. Approaching it as if it's hard science in any way and trying to find loopholes, or trying to fill them, is a futile effort. I see no point in it and my jest was aimed at this.

[Brother Xeones]

Has anybody else noticed that these type comments (the above two) come up any time someone questions an inconsistency, or looks "too deeply" at a rule? This is just a game, but you're browsing a forum dedicated to the game - you're probably pretty deep into it too. The thinly veiled condescension such comments display bothers me.

 

Regarding OP's question - I'd say its likely the thunderhawks and storm ravens get thicker armor because they go back and forth, rather than landing and having time to get repaired before going through the atmosphere again, as Vor said.

 

It looks like a deepstriking land raider would need the ceramic plating, getting dropped through the atmosphere and landing on the ground with no padding or anything....

 

I don't mean to derail the topic but since it's more than slightly adressed towards me..

 

Being deep into a 'game' doesn't necessarily mean being fascinated by its (in my opinion) mediocre fiction. I also enjoy playing videogames and I have no illusions about the quality of their storytelling.. There are many things I love about this hobby (painting, gaming, etc.) but the fluff would certainly not find a place near the top of my list..

 

Pardon me if I offended anybody, I realize a lot of people thoroughly enjoy the 40K fluff, if I stepped on your sensibilities, I aplogize. I enjoy it to a degree, but my enjoyment of it is more akin to my enjoyment of B-movies more than anything. The 40K universe is a mish-mash of modern world cultures spread across a galaxy, fantasy races in space and shameless rip-offs of existing fiction works held loosely together by a science-fiction that is more fantasy than science. Approaching it as if it's hard science in any way and trying to find loopholes, or trying to fill them, is a futile effort. I see no point in it and my jest was aimed at this.

 

Once again, I find myself agreeing with the esteemed tahrikmili. I don't think anyone was trying to be condescending here. To me, 40K fluff and background are, as the above poster says, mediocre at best. There are all sorts of glaring inconsistencies, logic holes, and "silly physics". My usual response when I come across these issues is to smile, remember that I am playing with little plastic toys, and move on. If others of you, prefer to make up your own reasons such things happen in the game, I have no problem with that. If it heightens your level of immersion in the universe, so be it. But if someone (in good-natured fun) points out the fact that we really ARE all playing with little plastic men, I wouldn't be so hasty to get offended. B)

 

edited for spelling

[lounahtic]

i've never actually SEEN actual re-entry. but when they simulate it, the blunt of the force, the part of the ship that heat up and thus require crap load of armor is the front, of the bottom front part... general front area. depending on armor plating you can ONLY re-entry at a certain angle. not your entire ship is covered in the same thickness of armor all around. the stormraven sure as hell is not gonna re-entry ass first. so that's my logic why the stuff getting transported dont need the same armor... they're usually chilling out in the back of at the bottom near the back, which doesn't get heat up as much because of the angle the transporter is coming in at... and that 'sounds' really scientifically sound to me...

[the jeske]

in 2ed all imperial tanks had the option to buy ceramite plating. it was cut in 3ed. in 3ed and 4th melta sucked . in 5th ceramite plating on tanks/transports/walkers for loyalist sm only would be A meta game breaking or B overcosted and not worth it or C auto include in some builds [like LR rush] .

[angel of justice]

Drop pods fired out of a orbiting carrier ship dont have it i think its here and there who gets ceramite plating.

[Redo]

Has anybody else noticed that these type comments (the above two) come up any time someone questions an inconsistency, or looks "too deeply" at a rule? This is just a game, but you're browsing a forum dedicated to the game - you're probably pretty deep into it too. The thinly veiled condescension such comments display bothers me.

 

Regarding OP's question - I'd say its likely the thunderhawks and storm ravens get thicker armor because they go back and forth, rather than landing and having time to get repaired before going through the atmosphere again, as Vor said.

 

It looks like a deepstriking land raider would need the ceramic plating, getting dropped through the atmosphere and landing on the ground with no padding or anything....

 

I don't mean to derail the topic but since it's more than slightly adressed towards me..

 

Being deep into a 'game' doesn't necessarily mean being fascinated by its (in my opinion) mediocre fiction. I also enjoy playing videogames and I have no illusions about the quality of their storytelling.. There are many things I love about this hobby (painting, gaming, etc.) but the fluff would certainly not find a place near the top of my list..

 

Pardon me if I offended anybody, I realize a lot of people thoroughly enjoy the 40K fluff, if I stepped on your sensibilities, I aplogize. I enjoy it to a degree, but my enjoyment of it is more akin to my enjoyment of B-movies more than anything. The 40K universe is a mish-mash of modern world cultures spread across a galaxy, fantasy races in space and shameless rip-offs of existing fiction works held loosely together by a science-fiction that is more fantasy than science. Approaching it as if it's hard science in any way and trying to find loopholes, or trying to fill them, is a futile effort. I see no point in it and my jest was aimed at this.

 

I actually found your first reply a fairly blunt but your apology more than forthcoming...so it is all good. Funnily enough I was thinking along fluff lines. I am one of those people who enjoy the fluff side of the hooby and when I wrote this post I was thinking merely about the fluff...not rules or rule changes. To be fair you have a point; there are many fluff inconsistencies in the lore of 40K but I guess that it why I posted this topic. To see whay other people thought about this and if they could rationalise it.

 

Perhaps Inverted would work...

[Zealadin]

I think the people who said its a game where pretty spot on.

Inconsistencies are just part of the balance, people having a bit of a cry at someone being realistic or 'mean' is just childish and attention seeking. As they say 'there are no stupid questions, only.........'

Encourage people to think a bit more before asking a question, instead of jumping on peoples back's about perfectly reasonable replies.

 

The most obvious answer is from a game lore perspective, (as others have mentioned) the fact that vehicles in tow wouldn't be in an area where they would be directly feeling the full force of re-entry and the associated heat.

Of course on the matter of a deep striking land raider its also AV14 which means it is MUCH more armoured than a Storm Raven, which suggests that the Storm Ravens ceramite armour is actually a necessity in allowing it to be a nimble aircraft with lighter armour, instead of a plodding castle. Dreads with more similar armour to the Raven need pods since apparently even AV 13 can't survive direct reentry/being dropped from a Hawk.

Drop pods design wise are a bit harder to explain, I mean you can say they have heavily armoured lower sections, but that is also where the rockets are located that slow their descent and allow the occupants to survive. Of course they might well have ceramite armour, but since the 'hatches' are all open no one firing on one that has landed would really face this issue!

 

This is also meant to be in the year 40k... comparing a shuttle being destroyed for losing a few tiles, to the civilisation who in this 'game universe' have managed to take over thousands of worlds and travel constantly through space almost as easily as we catch a plane between countries isn't exactly valid let alone a good idea.

[Brother Landrain]

I think the people who said its a game where pretty spot on.

Inconsistencies are just part of the balance......

 

I am sorry, but this is a very very bad statement.

 

In any Game Inconsistencies are NOT Balance.

 

They are ^_^ POOR Game development and design.

[Zid]

I think the people who said its a game where pretty spot on.

Inconsistencies are just part of the balance......

 

I am sorry, but this is a very very bad statement.

 

In any Game Inconsistencies are NOT Balance.

 

They are ^_^ POOR Game development and design.

 

Which we all know GW is the best developers out there... Sorry, they really need to hire new bloody editors.

[tahrikmili]

Which we all know GW is the best developers out there... Sorry, they really need to hire new bloody editors.

 

Captain, I'm detecting large quantities of sarcasm in this post..

[SnorriSnorrison]

I am quite sure that I read on the tale of Aphael´s battle against the Orks that Moriar war chained inside of the Stormraven, and therefore not dangling around on the outside of the vehicle. It would make sense that the Dreads are inside while entering the atmosphere and are then brought into position at the rear, ready for being launched in someone´s face.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Snorri

[Redo]

I am quite sure that I read on the tale of Aphael´s battle against the Orks that Moriar war chained inside of the Stormraven, and therefore not dangling around on the outside of the vehicle. It would make sense that the Dreads are inside while entering the atmosphere and are then brought into position at the rear, ready for being launched in someone´s face.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Snorri

 

Sounds good...I kind of thought this too as the Thunderhawk can bring a Dreadnought down in its compartment. Still the Thunderhawk transports looks rather crazy with those small arms cary a reasonable heavy tank in those weedy arms as it plumets into an atmospehere.

[Redo]

I think the people who said its a game where pretty spot on.

Inconsistencies are just part of the balance, people having a bit of a cry at someone being realistic or 'mean' is just childish and attention seeking. As they say 'there are no stupid questions, only.........'

Encourage people to think a bit more before asking a question, instead of jumping on peoples back's about perfectly reasonable replies.

 

To be honest I think this kind of comment is a little uncalled of. Calling people childish and attention seeking is just plain old nasty especially when one is asking the opinions of others and if they can explain some funky things in the world of 40K. Yes, it is only a game but that does not mean that one cannot question some aspects of the game especially when they are not about rules rather the nature of the fluff and how it could be explained.

[Zealadin]

RE: The inconsistencies debate. You called it bad game design but I bet your the same crowd who agree that guardian eldar, despite in all the lore being far superior to humans in practically every way should share the same stat line as imperial guard? Strange how inconsistencies ARE balance here, but only when it suits your fancy. The rift between lore and game stats is always going to be based around balance, please tell me how this isn't true though.

 

@ Redo - the internet is much like 40k, its a big place full of conflict, I personally don't live by a creed where I just make allowances for every idiot in society (and no this isn't directly aimed at you) because it just means that there will be more of them.

If you can't take some possibly snide remarks, which nevertheless answer your question than don't ask it, like you said one can still certainly question aspects of the game.

Turning it into a drama in the hopes that the big bad mods will come and take the mean people away is in my opinion just as bad if not worse than a bit of trolling, and yet its an issue that rarely is acknowledged or recognised as happening.

[Spagunk]

Shields

 

That's how they survive re-entry. If you look at the basic mechanics of re-entry the idea is that you want to make the atmosphere take the brunt of the heat. To do this, you need a large flat surface or something conical. Otherwise, your metal is heated unevenly and you die a literal fiery death. If you actually look into our current understanding of re-entry through the atmosphere, the job of the material underneath an object only needs to compensate for 2k F-3k F worth of heat. In actuality, friction generates a lot more than that. However, the medium in which a re-entry vehicle passes through repels some of this and causes a barrier where most of the heat is kept off the underlying metal. In the 40k world where repulsor fields can protect high speed ballistic and plasma weapons it is entirely possible for something rudimentary to be installed in a hull for the purposes of re-entry. A shield can be shaped to deflect most of the heat. Any heat that actually makes it through (which is entirely possible as this is the primary trouble with plasma containment) would be absorbed by the metal behind the shield.

 

Now specialized armor may be needed to compensate for high speed re-entry. That is to say, a TH transport has cargo so they wouldn't try to power through the atmosphere as it would cause excessive heat that would overpower the shields. However a SR would need to get down to the ground as soon as possible so the extra protection is needed to make a higher angled drops. So I am guessing the ceremite armor will handle between 5k F and 10k F worth of heat that the shields is unable to prevent.

 

Just my opinion on the matter.

[Morticon]

@ Redo - the internet is much like 40k, its a big place full of conflict, I personally don't live by a creed where I just make allowances for every idiot in society (and no this isn't directly aimed at you) because it just means that there will be more of them.

If you can't take some possibly snide remarks, which nevertheless answer your question than don't ask it, like you said one can still certainly question aspects of the game.

 

That being said Zealadin, we can always strive to keep our comments thoughtful, insightful, constructive and productive even if they are criticism. Part in parcel of what you said cuts both ways - dont make allowances for every idiot (with a PC in this case) to mouth off without thinking there are consequences.

 

On line - on youtube for example or a plethora of other sites there is zero blowback.

This isn't the case on BnC.

Step out of line and get "snide" and unhelpful and you will get put into place.

 

Turning it into a drama in the hopes that the big bad mods will come and take the mean people away is in my opinion just as bad if not worse than a bit of trolling, and yet its an issue that rarely is acknowledged or recognised as happening.

 

Thankfully the mods get to decide what counts as drama and only continual pushing of these limits will have "mean people" "taken away".

 

Whether or not thats bad or good is irrelevant - its how the BnC rolls.

 

So lets keep this topic on track guys ;)

 

Or the "big bad mods" come in.

[Valerian]

I was just thinking that Stormravens and Tunderhawk transporters have ceramic plating to help them survive and make atmospheric re-entry possible. What is curious is that both these flyers can transport vehicles externally...Rhinos, Razorbacks, Landraiders, Dreadnoughts etc

 

Anyone find it strange that these models do not have ceramic plating. Afterall they will be exposed to the extreme heat as well...

 

I keep thinking about to the Columbia accident and I think if this vehicle could not survive re-entry with just a few tiles damaged how can these vehicles survive with no protection. Sure glad that I am not a Space Marine getting transported in a tank as it attempts re-entry...

 

What do you guys think?

 

I would just have to say that it all comes down to a couple of points. First, everything in the game has been developed over the course of about 24 years, as an evolution of ideas. These designers have made a fair attempt to create at semi-realistic, or at least halfway believable, science-fantasy universe for us to immerse ourselves into as players of the game and consumers of their products. We have to understand the extreme difficulty of doing this, and that there will be inevitable inconsistencies. I am sure that if the leaders at GW had it all to do over again, and were able to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch, that a significant portion of the background fluff, the game rules, the army lists, and everything related to the game would be quite a bit different.

 

Now, on to your question, why don't Drop Pods, Land Raiders, or pretty much every vehicle that Space Marines use that by their nature must deploy from a space-based fleet to the planetside battlefield have ceramite plating to protect them during reentry while the Stormravens do?

 

Well one answer is to that is simply that back when all of those other vehicles were first conceptualized, nobody thought about that aspect of their deployment. The Stormraven is a brand new vehicle, so someone happened to think about considering the issue (requirement for ceramite) this time.

 

A second answer, that does not discount the first, is that game balance must be considered. Vehicles are more survivable in this edition and Melta weaponry, in all of its forms, is very important in the metagame in taking down high-Armour Value vehicles. If they were to basically take the melta threat away from all Space Marine vehicles (because they all face the reentry issue) then there would be a huge shift in power for all mechanized Marine armies.

 

Everything works reasonably well as it is, so there really isn't much point to make the adjustment toward "realism" or consistency, that would necessarily for them to make significant changes to all non-Astartes forces to bring them back up to balance against the now better-protected Marine vehicles.

 

Deep thoughts for 0300 in the morning.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Brother Biskit]

When engaging in re-entry its only the leading edge of the craft that is heated, The super heated air that is in the path of the vehicle is pushed out in a hypersonic shockwave by the passage of the craft forming a cone shape which extends some distance behind and is almost totally in vacuum. Hence if the Stormraven enters nose first as you’d expect from a fast attack craft then it would require the Ceremite plating to resist the temperatures on the frontal area which are more than hot enough to melt most metals while the dreadnought would be quite safe in the rear.

[Vodunius]

The write up for the Thunderhawks big brother, the Landing Craft says that it uses a disposable heat shield to protect itself and its cargo which is blown away by explosive bolts once it reaches low atmo. I assume the Thunderhawk would use the same.