Caestus Assault Ram

[Frosty the Pyro]

remember that the ram this thing does gets to roll 2d6 (take the higher) and counts as ap1 (equivilent rule anyway). Also remember that vehicles moving flat out may not fire any weapons or dissembark troops, thus you can only use the melta at targets within 21" (12+9 for half range) but the ram can go up to 36".

 

 

Other than that, this is just one more reason it is foolish to use forgeworld rules outside of apoc.

[Race Bannon]

Foolish? That's a personal opinion. I'd wager that most gaming groups have some sort of house rule in place that stipulates, "if it's not in the Codex then opponent permission is needed first". So, in an Apoc game, the rule is out the window and anything goes.

 

This ... thing ... has obvious Apoc wargear on it (e.g. 5" balst template?!). That alone almost nullifies it's legality in 40K games, in my opinion and LGS. But if my opponent allows it, then hooray for me.

 

But do I want to spend $100.00+ on the hope that'll happen? Yeah, no.

 

This is a neat toy. And I hope enough players send FW enough emails to make FW make it less ... crazy.

 

EDIT - Runic armor is different from Artificer Armor. Although I personally lump them in the same "group", in a game where each word makes a difference, then it seems RA != AA.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

First off here are the links:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/CAES...SSAULT-RAM.html

Experimental Rules:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Prod...F/c/caestus.pdf

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/caestus3.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO1aSlKcaxg&NR=1

 

 

Isn't that the troop drop ship from the 1st Halo game? oh wait...

has any one done a topic/list of all the sources that GW/forge world has ripped off over the past 30 years?

just wondering

[Grey Mage]

EDIT - Runic armor is different from Artificer Armor. Although I personally lump them in the same "group", in a game where each word makes a difference, then it seems RA != AA.

 

 

C:SW, pg 61:

These suits of Power Armor, ancient beyond reconing are further enhanced...

 

SW Runic Armor is Power Armor.

 

As for:

Isn't that the troop drop ship from the 1st Halo game? oh wait...

has any one done a topic/list of all the sources that GW/forge world has ripped off over the past 30 years?

just wondering

No, it really isnt. Forward ramps instead of side facing. Middle mounted cannon as opposed to tail mounted turret. Wings. Blocky instead of smooth.

 

Its like saying a F22 is a Ripoff of a Tomcat.

[DerekLee688]

Riflemen dreads, MM/HF LS's, typhoons, and melta bikes are my premiere anti-tank units and they are ALL inadiquate to put this thing down before it gets to me. The only thing I got that's worth a flip against it is the 2 LC sponsons on my Combi-pred or land raider. Not even having a Caestus yourself can stop it.

 

I wouldn't want to face one regularly. However, it is a monster transport.

[Hellios]

Isn't that the troop drop ship from the 1st Halo game? oh wait...

has any one done a topic/list of all the sources that GW/forge world has ripped off over the past 30 years?

just wondering

 

Well what grey mage says and depending on how you want to break things down then hardly anything is 'NEW' anymore... it is just combining ideas, bringing back dead ones or re-hashing existing ones... and this applies in many maybe even most fields of life although it might be going a bit far to say all... Fantasy rips of LotR??? and what did LotR rip off do you know do you try and look that far and I'm pretty sure that even then the ideas were not new...

 

As for this ram... meh I'm not scared but man this is just perfect for Minotaurs... who are famous for just being brutal and ship to ship actions... seems just right for them... May have to paint a few more of them up...

[Brother Xeones]

This ... thing ... has obvious Apoc wargear on it (e.g. 5" balst template?!). That alone almost nullifies it's legality in 40K games, in my opinion and LGS. But if my opponent allows it, then hooray for me.

 

Small correction: A 5" Blast is just the normal 40K pie plate--not the larger 7" Apocalyptic Blast template. However, I'd generally agree with your assessment of the Caestus. It's a niche market model, no question. IF you are part of a laid-back and permissive gaming group, AND you like the model (I don't really), AND you play Space Marines, AND you have a force that would benefit from this type of unit, AND you have that kind of disposable income, then sure, why not pick one up? I don't think that we'll be seeing a huge influx of these things though.

 

As far as the rules go, I'm quite intrigued by them. The large blast melta weapon is interesting and the ability to transport 10 terminators is really tempting --especially with the assault launchers. On the topic of durability, I haven't done the math, but wouldn't an AV13 vehicle with a 5+ inv. save be about as effective as an AV14 vehicle? Granted, more weapons would be able to glance or penetrate when compared to a LR, but the 5+ save should help v. lower numbers of high S weapons like Lascannons and, with the loss of 2D6 for meltas, this thing is looking quite durable. For game flavor though, I can't help but think that a vehicle that runs around the table slamming into other stuff should be left to the orks. I just don't see how this is particularly Marine-like. I mean, I understand the boarding action concept, but since the most logical (and sane) use for this craft is not at all useful in a normal game of 40K, I can't help but feel that it's a little out of place on the table.

[Hfran Morkai]

Isn't that the troop drop ship from the 1st Halo game? oh wait...

 

What it reminds me more of is the Landing Craft used during the Second World War, though with multiple storage bays.

[Grey Mage]

Isn't that the troop drop ship from the 1st Halo game? oh wait...

 

What it reminds me more of is the Landing Craft used during the Second World War, though with multiple storage bays.

YES! Im not alone.... :P

[Brother_Fatiswon]

WH RPG < TSR's AD&D

WFB< Chainmail and the hobbit (not the box game "battle of five armies")

40K:starwars

necromundian(sp)< Bladerunner/total recall

BFG <Areo tech

Epic 40k:< Battletech

Bloodbowl < M.y.t.h. adventure novels (end of the 2rd book? pretty sure...)

gorkamorka < Road warrior/madmax/beyond thunderdome

 

and that's just the tip of the spear... or the back of the gauntlet ^_^

[infinite_array]

When I first saw this thing, I pretty much leaped with infinite joy. Here, for a mere 90 euros, is an epic, amazingly crafted Marine aircraft.

 

For anyone who's ever coveted the Thunderhawk owner, but have never had the deep pockets to get their own, here's a purchase for you.

[Xeonic]

I'm honestly not in the least worried about GW taking inspiration from other sources, who in turn took inspiration from other prior works, ect. and so on. It's hardly a crime to pay homage to the works of others and you could point out as many examples of works that derive inspiration from GW's work. All of humanity's achievements are after all built on those of they who came before. Before I wax philosophical though, I'll get on topic. ;)

 

 

To me it looks a bit over the top to just spring on someone in a friendly game, but could make campaign or narrative missions a lot of fun.

 

Honestly my real objection to it is that it's almost a surefire way to deliver 10 assault termies wherever you want them on the board without significant risk. Yes, it costs a lot of points but it should in the hands of a player with half a brain work the vast majority of the time to deliver it's cargo of megadeath(and possibly Cassius for woo, rerolls from a cheap T6 FnP IC?, Lysander for S10 hammery goodness, Pedro for ouch! aura, or Calgar the fists of fury) to whatever needs to be erased NOW in your opponents list, plus whatever is next to it thanks to the wonders of multiple assault.

Oh, by the way it has a large blast melta cannon. You know, for erm, killing anything.

Oh, and if the melta cannon and missiles get destroyed it can ram on 2d6 pick the highest with +1 on the damage chart. As a bonus it has a front arc invulnerable save.

 

In short, I think it's awesome, and it just plain looks fantastic IMO.

In long? I think it needs to be rethought as in it's current incarnation it comes pretty close to breaking the metagame. At a glance it looks like it really has no glaring weakness(av11 rear armor notwithstanding) aside from massed high strength fire, which everything is weak to anyways.

 

Just for fun, I dare someone to see how easy it is to get a destroyed result on a fast AV13 skimmer moving flat out with lascannon.

 

Anyways, while my ultramarines would love to ride to battle in one, my money is probably better spent on more land speeders than shiny FW shelfbling that may or may not be fielded a couple times a year. I can always use more land speeders. :o

[Arikel]

Just wow. This thing is a perfect example of why folks claim fw rules are broken. The rules for this are so overpowered that it would still be a bargain at twice the point cost. I'd personally never use this item, unless it was for a specially designed game scenario. The model itself isn't so bad, and I think it would be quite reasonable to use it as a storm raven(or whatever that blood angels flying landraider is).

[Hfran Morkai]

Just wow. This thing is a perfect example of why folks claim fw rules are broken. The rules for this are so overpowered that it would still be a bargain at twice the point cost. I'd personally never use this item, unless it was for a specially designed game scenario. The model itself isn't so bad, and I think it would be quite reasonable to use it as a storm raven(or whatever that blood angels flying landraider is).

 

Experimental rules always seem to be over the top, when it appears in an actual book it should be toned down, at least I hope so. Lose the extra 12 inch movement and I'd be happier.

[mowglie]

Just for fun, I dare someone to see how easy it is to get a destroyed result on a fast AV13 skimmer moving flat out with lascannon.

 

A single BS4 lascannon?

 

1 shot => 2/3 hits => 2/18 glancing hits + 4/18 penetrating hits => 1/18 glancing hits + 2/18 penetrating hits after cover saves => 1/108 + 6/108 destroyed (immobilised results destroy skimmers going flat-out) = about 6.5% chance of a destroyed result. Did I miss anything?

 

Alternately, that's ~10 lascannon shots at once to have a better than 50% chance of destroying it.

 

That's not too bad. I'd rather be shooting lascannons at this thing than at a Land Raider - especially one with smoke or rhino cover.

 

Obviously its defensive strength, though, lies in its immunity (more-or-less) to melta fire.

[Giga]

I love the model and I love the fluff and it'd surely be very fun to play around with.

 

That being said, the Caestus Assault Ram under the current rules is a near-indestructible ultra-fast vehicle that can transport 10 terminators, obliterate infantry and vehicles alike, murder vehicles by ramming them, AND costs less then a Land Raider.

 

Sorry, it's too good. It either needs to cost a lot more, or it needs to lose a lot on survivability and/or firepower. Just the fact it can move 36" into enemy deployment zone turn 1 makes it worth the price tag.

[Jakobus]

I'm wondering, would people have less issues if the Manga-melta wasn't on the CAR?

Swap out the MgM for a Multimelta or a Twinlinked Lascannon.. I'd still say wow, but not wow thats insane. I'm not a huge fan of the bit where Terminators count as 1 model, but thats mainly because there is such a precedence for TDA using 2 transport slots.

 

As for combatting a CAR as it currently sits, I would use the way that its modeled the point, the Mangamelta yes it is a little off putting but looking at the 9th image you can see what a narrow fire arc it will have for this gun, and it has to be within 9" of the end of the gun, which appears to be 1 or 2 inches back from the front of the model, so with the not approaching within 1" you're looking at Melta range of about 6-8" depending on the actual messurements. And the Rear armour is 11 which means that a lascannon or a krak missile or even an assault cannon will do "bad things" if you position youself correctly.

Then there is the size of it, the CAR is bigger than a Landraider, making it a juicy target for ordenance shots.

 

So basically I look at it, and appart from the Magnamelta and maybe the Terminators capacity its not too bad

[Grey Mage]

Actually, my issue isnt the weaponry, or the transport capacity:

 

Its a Fast Moving Skimmer, literally the fastest in the game, and it has an assault ramp.

 

NO. Just no. Not in a normal 40k game, not for any price in any marine army.

[Jakobus]

Ok that is fair enough, but they are unable to disembark if it does go flatout. Even the Storm Raven doesn't allow the use assault ramp if you use the Skies of Blood rule to disembark when its gone flat out.

 

Ok on the second turn it would be ... annoying... once it's to flown across the field turn 1 to get into a good position to use the assault ramp turn 2

[Grey Mage]

Ok that is fair enough, but they are unable to disembark if it does go flatout. Even the Storm Raven doesn't allow the use assault ramp if you use the Skies of Blood rule to disembark when its gone flat out.

 

Ok on the second turn it would be ... annoying... once it's to flown across the field turn 1 to get into a good position to use the assault ramp turn 2

And?

 

Marines, an army where every member is tough, where you can have a decent mass of accurate firepower, and already have several very nice transportation options, simply doesnt need access to the fastest transport in the game.

 

Its in fact the same problem I have with the Storm Raven- it shouldnt have been made, and while Ill shoot those down when they come, I wont agree to play against a person with one of these outside of apocalypse.

 

Its like giving Dwarves heavy cavalry, or letting Necrons use Rhinos, or giving DE Terminator Armor- some things just shouldnt be included into the game balance. M:TG didnt learn this lesson fast enough, and spawned a horrible cycle that almost killed the game for all but the most obsessive players. To the point they had to reset the game.

[Hyaenidae]

This ride is practically screaming for a golden chalice and royal purple paint...I got a very fluffy pre-excom Soul Drinkers army that has been lacking in anti armour, especially in apoc games. Now, though, I can really raise hell, and yet stay within the spirit of my army. I personally approve of this ride for a assault army like mine (after FW knocks the cobwebs off the rules, of course).

[spartan249]

I don't know about you guys, but when I play codex marines, I always feel like I'm the underdog in the fight, and unless I ply my craft well, I'm looking at sure defeat. All the other armies have some amazing answers to C:SMs, and I always feel under-equipped to do the job. Never enough lascannons/dreadnoughts/missile launchers/meltas/etc to feel like I can match up evenly with my opponents, especially vs other recent codices. While it does make me feel accomplished when I win in battles, it makes me feel frustrated that other armies have access to some very nice things while I'm stuck with cumbersome dreadnoughts and seen-a-mile-away land raiders.

 

While this thing's just a little too funky and unbalanced to ever get into the C:SM, I could use something like this in my army. It would make me feel like I'm finally fielding threats that my opponents need to find an answer for, rather than the other way around.

[Grey Mage]

I don't know about you guys, but when I play codex marines, I always feel like I'm the underdog in the fight, and unless I ply my craft well, I'm looking at sure defeat. All the other armies have some amazing answers to C:SMs, and I always feel under-equipped to do the job. Never enough lascannons/dreadnoughts/missile launchers/meltas/etc to feel like I can match up evenly with my opponents, especially vs other recent codices. While it does make me feel accomplished when I win in battles, it makes me feel frustrated that other armies have access to some very nice things while I'm stuck with cumbersome dreadnoughts and seen-a-mile-away land raiders.

 

While this thing's just a little too funky and unbalanced to ever get into the C:SM, I could use something like this in my army. It would make me feel like I'm finally fielding threats that my opponents need to find an answer for, rather than the other way around.

 

Your either playing the wrong army, or dont have the models that you need for your playstyle.... C:SM has plenty of fun, sneaky, and powerful options.

[Giga]

I don't know about you guys, but when I play codex marines, I always feel like I'm the underdog in the fight, and unless I ply my craft well, I'm looking at sure defeat. All the other armies have some amazing answers to C:SMs, and I always feel under-equipped to do the job. Never enough lascannons/dreadnoughts/missile launchers/meltas/etc to feel like I can match up evenly with my opponents, especially vs other recent codices. While it does make me feel accomplished when I win in battles, it makes me feel frustrated that other armies have access to some very nice things while I'm stuck with cumbersome dreadnoughts and seen-a-mile-away land raiders.

 

While this thing's just a little too funky and unbalanced to ever get into the C:SM, I could use something like this in my army. It would make me feel like I'm finally fielding threats that my opponents need to find an answer for, rather than the other way around.

I think your problem is twofold;

 

1) C:SM is designed with reactionary play, duality, and simplicity in mind. Hence, by default we're never going to have complex ultra-specialized toys (and the caestus ram is just that, a near-unstoppable uber-fast unit that WILL deliver terminators into assault by turn 2 just about 99% of the time), and we have to rely on our units filling multiple roles and need a balanced approach. So, by its very design, the army is rarely going to be going around smashing faces and taking names.

 

2) From what I've seen from your posts, you play gunline SM armies like the ones Stelek advertises on his blog, with tons of cheap shooty thingies and a focused approach (shooting). Though these armies certainly look impressive on paper, and would seriously melt faces on tables with little or mostly flat terrain, they still don't really shine on terrain-heavy tables and IMHO aren't nearly as flexible or as capable of exploiting an opponent's weaknesses as a balanced SM army would be. Not to mention they are at a disadvantage vs real shooty armies that can pack real firepower, such as Imperial Guard, Tau, etc.

 

IMHO, there should be fewer things like the caestus ram in the game, simply because they`re too much of trick ponies that are extremely hard to stop, yet extremely specialized in their use.

[Hellios]

I don't know about you guys, but when I play codex marines, I always feel like I'm the underdog in the fight, and unless I ply my craft well, I'm looking at sure defeat. All the other armies have some amazing answers to C:SMs, and I always feel under-equipped to do the job.

 

1) C:SM is designed with reactionary play, duality, and simplicity in mind. Hence, by default we're never going to have complex ultra-specialized toys (and the caestus ram is just that, a near-unstoppable uber-fast unit that WILL deliver terminators into assault by turn 2 just about 99% of the time), and we have to rely on our units filling multiple roles and need a balanced approach. So, by its very design, the army is rarely going to be going around smashing faces and taking names.

 

Also the problem is Space marines (of some form... SW, BT, BA, DA... even Chaos!) are the most common armies or at least most armies have power armour... and a lot of the units in the power armoured armies are the same or not hugely different... So if I'm building an all comers list... I can put a pretty strong focus on destroying marines and it won't hurt me too much... If you focus your list on destroying MechEldar however you will be at a disadvantage when you play against marines or Orks... a Well Balanced all comers list might never totally stomp on someones face (assuming they are at the same standard) but you should be able to win or at least pull for a draw.