First Heretic

[quiethood]

Holy crap!!! They've put an extract of The First Heretic on the black library coming soon page, and it is oh my damn good! Has to be one of the best descriptions of the Emperor, ever. But I warn you, the extract is a complete tease. You'll be wanting more than it gives. Trust me, you want to go read it. Guilliman is very interesting, and poor Malcador. It gives you enough to wet your pallet.

[Skirax]

Who wrote it? Oh, that's right, Aaron-Dembski Brown, arguably the tied-for-best writer that Black Library has ever employed. And my god did they give him a good subject. The first EVER possessed Marine? I can't wait for all the emotions et al. that he explores.

[Legatus]

Hum, obliterating an entire city because they worship the Emperor as a God? Which another Primarch had told them to do? That is kind of a dick move. And that from the Primarch who allways tried to minimize collateral damage. This asignment must not have pleased Guilliman at all.

 

When Lorgar had attacked Malcador, I felt that upon receiving this Mission Guilliman would have been entrusted with his safety. Yet he did not really seem to do anything about it.

 

Also, apparently Black Library has decided on the 100,000 strong Legions after all. (Wouldn't it have been a thousand Captains, then, not hundred? Or were only the first ranks stepping forward?)

[Bulwyf]

Actually 100k or so original Legion strength makes more sense just to explain how after 10k years the CSM Legions can still be such a threat.

[Legatus]

It then of course makes absolutely no sense whatsoever how any single Chapter could stand against the threat of a Traitor Marine attack.

[Brother Nihm]

It then of course makes absolutely no sense whatsoever how any single Chapter could stand against the threat of a Traitor Marine attack.

They can't (?), but The Imperium can.

[Noctus Cornix]

Yes. Each Legion has 'always' been generally stated as being in the hundreds of thousands. Each company stands to about 300 astartes each.

 

There are multipule reasons why the imperium hasnt been obliterated by this 'insane' threat.

 

1. Most of the legions were absolutely obliterated in the fires of the horus heresy. I would say any legion that committed troops to the killing fields of terra lost no less then about 40% of their legion. Remember the death toll was in the trillions on both sides. (most of those losses were of guardsmen and such but you the brunt of this fighting was between astartes. This was a personal matter to them.)

 

2. Division amongst the legions as basically destroyed most of the legions for names sake. The World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperors Children, and Iron Warriors have essentially seperated into an intangible mass of warbands. Although they all may wear the same colors, they dont necessarily fight with each other.

 

3. Inter war. Chaos marines fight each other as much, if not more then they fight the imperium. They spend a majority of their time bickering over petty stuff and slitting each others throat in the eye of terror before they even set foot into real space.

 

4. Warbands. Essentially, most chaos marines are a bunch of power hungry lunatics who want to be the top dog. This, of course turns a 10,000 man warband that could scourge entire sectors into hundreds of smaller warbands of greedy imbeciles who believe they are better then everyone else.

 

5. Even if you have a large warband of chaos marines, (say 300- 400) a single company of space marines could still win. Why? Because there are limitless guardsmen that will be thrown at these traitor astartes without a hint of hesitation and whittle them down until the Astartes finally come in, mop up the rest, and take all of the glory. So what if a few billion lives are lost? The astartes couldnt give two flips.

 

Post Heresy Astartes are hollow shells of the former glory that was the great crusades where it was really the astartes who fought the wars, not a typhoon of mortals with flashlights and rubber bayonets.

[Rain]

Honestly I see Chaos kind of like orks in that if all of the forces of Chaos (including daemons, cultists, renegades, legions) actually banded together and fought for a common cause, they would overthrow the Imperium. Unfortunately for them, they tend to fight each other as much as they fight the Imperium. Remember that even during the Heresy under Horus himself, the traitors were not really a united front as the Emperor's Children completely ignored the siege of the palace to kill civilians, the Night Lords didn't even bother coming to Terra, and the Iron Warriors disengaged after breaching the wall to go and attack a nearby Imperial Fists monastery instead.

 

As for 300 Chaos marines vs a loyalist company, all things equal, the traitor marines would surely win. Remember that they are also astartes and would not just charge headlong against a million guardsmen (unless they are World Eaters) and if they are getting involved in an extended engagement they probably have daemons and cultists of their own. In fact, I'd wager it takes more loyalist forces to bring down any given size of Chaos forces due to the greater experience and gifts of legionnaires. That said, loyalists can reinforce a given planet almost infinitely if they want, while each Chaos lord only has his one warband to command and although he can summon other warbands to his aid via a sorcerer, those warbands would be doing their own thing and not necessarily aiding him, never mind the fact that the lord of such a "reinforcement" might decide to kill him and absorb his remaining forces.

[Legatus]

Yes. Each Legion has 'always' been generally stated as being in the hundreds of thousands. Each company stands to about 300 astartes each.

They have been stated to be that big in the Black Library material, yes. The Codices and Index Astartes articles are generally describing ten thousand strong Legions, though. Most recently in the 5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 9. There have also been a few Horus heresy novels that had hinted as smaller sizes. I believe in one novel the Emperor's Children are said to have attacked a world or space station, and it mentioned ten thousand warriors. In another it mentions a victory parade (it may have been where the Emperor anounced his retreat from leading the crusade), where Marines from fourteen different Legions had been present, some of them in their entirety, some only with a few companies, and they amounted to about a hundred thousand men in total.

 

Edit: I also mentioned this initially because a while ago A D-B had said that they were discussing the matte rof Legion sizes in a BL meeting, where some found that 80,000 men under Corax were way too much. Apparently thay have now agreed on the 100,000 per Legion now after all. Though as I have mentioned, some earlier Horus Heresy novels seemed to have used the smaller figures.

[Noctus Cornix]

(finally just read the exerpt)

 

 

;) :drool: :drool:

 

 

 

God damnit AD-B, why do you have to be so freaking awesome?! :lol:

 

 

You have taken one of my favorite legions and showed them WHY they did what they did and that was the whole reason why i love the Word Bearers.

 

Awesome sir.

 

Simply Awesome.

[Brother Hadafix]

Going to hold back from my thought on reading that extract, other than to say it was awesome.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Yum!

 

Now my screen has spoon dents from trying to eat the words :mellow:

 

A D-B, you bandit! That extract was far too short. I was just about to ask The Emperor a question and then

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

wait! what!? but, but, but....

You stinker!

[Marshal Traben]

If i understood correctly, the Word Bearers Legion numbered around 100,000 in the extract and the 100 captains each would lead a company of 1000 astartes? :huh:

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If i understood correctly, the Word Bearers Legion numbered around 100,000 in the extract and the 100 captains each would lead a company of 1000 astartes? :huh:

 

If, when Lorgs said 'Captains' and the 100 stepped forwards, those 100 were all of the Captains, then yes, Captains over a thousand Astartes.

[Marshal Traben]

Okay, if the WB had 100,000 astartes, then how many do the other legions have?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Okay, if the WB had 100,000 astartes, then how many do the other legions have?

 

About that.

 

Sals, Wolves, Sons and Ravens less

Ultras more

The others around about 100K.

[A D-B]

It was just the senior captains stepping forward (for various reasons).

[Marshal Traben]

If those 100 were the foremost company captains, then how many other captains does the Word Bearer legion have?

[A D-B]

If those 100 were the foremost company captains, then how many other captains does the Word Bearer legion have?

 

About a thousand in total.

[Marshal Traben]

About a thousand in total.

So then the 100,000 strong legion has 1000 companies each comprising 100 marines, correct me if i'm wrong ? Having read your previous works, i have no doubt that the First Heretic will be excellent A D-B.

[Rain]

I actually like the 100k fluff to be honest. I like the fact that my particular Chaos lord could well have been a pre-heresy captain or equivalent without it obviously contravening fluff. In other words, while no Ultramarine player can really have their "own" captain as all of the canonical UM captains have been named (at least I think they have, in any case most have). Chaos players however can have their own legion captains without any fluff contradiction since there were so damn many of them.

[Hellios]

So the senior captains are what the Dark Angels would call Chapter Masters with 10 companies under their control (with lower ranking captains at the head of 9 or 10 of the companies) or are the senior captains from say the 1st-100th companies which might be considered the better companies... to one degree or another...

[A D-B]

The things you guys focus on... I love you all, but you're killing me.

 

Now, joking aside:

 

The captains that step forward are "senior" for reasons of Legion favouritism, rank, and various other things. They're also the ones that step forward because having 1,500 guys step forward (and then explaining their various ranks, statures, and so on) isn't close, personal, intimate to Lorgar, or particularly good writing for many reasons. I mean, this isn't a codex. I didn't weant to break down the moment humanity is damned on account of explaining jazz that never showed up before in the infrastructure of an Astartes Legion, especially when it won't matter to 99% of readers. Don't sweat it, though - in the full novel, stuff becomes clearer, but I'll do it here, anyway.

 

Okay. Here's how the Legion is organised:

 

A captain and a Chaplain (I have no idea why they're capitalised like that in Warhammer, but they are), lead around 100 Astartes. That's a company.

 

Companies don't really matter to the Word Bearers, though. Chapters do.

 

A Chapter Master leads around 3 to, say, 30+ captains. A Chapter is organised by its own rituals and traditions, usually based on a myth or aspect of Colchisian astrology, and will have companies from across the Legion.

 

For example, the main characters in The First Heretic are from the handful of companies that make up the Chapter of the Serrated Sun. All Word Bearers display their Chapter somewhere on their armour - in the case of the Serrated Sun, it's a razor-edged golden star around one of their eye lenses.

 

The protagonist, Argel Tal, is Subcommander of the Serrated Sun, and captain of the 7th Assault Company. His Chapter rank is what matters (and usually how he's addressed), while his captain rank matters much less.

 

Incidentally, he's also the only pupil that refused to continue his training under Erebus, and chose the blade and bolter over the crozius.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The captains that step forward are "senior" for reasons of Legion favouritism, rank, and various other things. They're also the ones that step forward because having 1,500 guys step forward (and then explaining their various ranks, statures, and so on) isn't close, personal, intimate to Lorgar, or particularly good writing for many reasons. I mean, this isn't a codex. I didn't weant to break down the moment humanity is damned on account of explaining jazz that never showed up before in the infrastructure of an Astartes Legion, especially when it won't matter to 99% of readers. Don't sweat it, though - in the full novel, stuff becomes clearer, but I'll do it here, anyway.

 

We are banally anal :P . More or less. You'll come to love it.... or not ^_^

You've just saved B&C oodles of posts as the Forces of Big (100K Legions) battle the Forces of Small (10K Legions)

Maybe you can get some B&C dice and a cookie from Kurgan?? :P

 

I hope you are not saying that some incidental chit-chat between Goldie and The Big E comes close to dotted i's and crossed t's? :nuke:

 

Okay. Here's how the Legion is organised:

A captain and a Chaplain (I have no idea why they're capitalised like that in Warhammer, but they are), lead around 100 Astartes. That's a company.

Companies don't really matter to the Word Bearers, though. Chapters do.

A Chapter Master leads around 3 to, say, 30+ captains. A Chapter is organised by its own rituals and traditions, usually based on a myth or aspect of Colchisian astrology, and will have companies from across the Legion.

For example, the main characters in The First Heretic are from the handful of companies that make up the Chapter of the Serrated Sun. All Word Bearers display their Chapter somewhere on their armour - in the case of the Serrated Sun, it's a razor-edged golden star around one of their eye lenses.

 

That's what I talkin bout!

That's where it's at!

 

The protagonist, Argel Tal, is Subcommander of the Serrated Sun, and captain of the 7th Assault Company. His Chapter rank is what matters (and usually how he's addressed), while his captain rank matters much less.

Incidentally, he's also the only pupil that refused to continue his training under Erebus, and chose the blade and bolter over the crozius.

 

Maybe he smelt that Erebus was a crooked snake needing to be straightened out between the ground and a Land Raider?

I don't care if that is not true.

It is now my reality. :)

[Legatus]

I actually like the 100k fluff to be honest. I like the fact that my particular Chaos lord could well have been a pre-heresy captain or equivalent without it obviously contravening fluff. In other words, while no Ultramarine player can really have their "own" captain as all of the canonical UM captains have been named (at least I think they have, in any case most have). Chaos players however can have their own legion captains without any fluff contradiction since there were so damn many of them.

In a 10,000 strong Legion you would still have 100 Captains to chose from...

 

 

So the senior captains are what the Dark Angels would call Chapter Masters with 10 companies under their control (with lower ranking captains at the head of 9 or 10 of the companies) or are the senior captains from say the 1st-100th companies which might be considered the better companies... to one degree or another...

I don't think that the first companies of the entire Legion are the Veteran Companies. Instead, the first company of each of the Chapters would probably consist of Veterans, similar to how modern Chapters are organised. A Legion's Chapters were often operating independently (so seen in the "Call of the Lion" short story, for example), so it makes sense that they have their own Veteran company, and the veteran Companies are not grouped in some way. The Dark Angels appeared to be organised similar to the Ultramarines, i.e. ten Companies of 100 men per Chapter, led by a Chapter master. Not all Legions were neccessarily organised like that, and apparently the Word Bearere are slightly different.