TWC vs Sky Claws

[sniperhavens]

Which is the better option as far as killiness and survivability?

 

Wolf Lord- Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, TWM, WTN, WTT,Runic Armor Saga of the Warrior Born- 265

4X TWC- SS, TH, MB-265

 

 

OR

 

 

Wolf Lord- Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, JP, WTN, WTT,Runic Armor Saga of the Warrior Born- 245

10X Sky Claws- flamer, PF, MoTW- 225

Wolf Guard- JP, Wolf Claw- 58

 

I can drop MB's in my list to change wolf claw in Wolf guard to Thunder Hammer which I would prefer.

[Eric the Green]

I find that my skyclaws die a lot. So the thunderwolves are probably more survivable. But why not use both? i do, they support one another quite well.

 

Also it should be noted that wolfguard cannot join skyclaw packs.

[Stormbrow II]

Are you serious? Skyclaws vs TWC? Skyclaws are the worst unit in the Codex. How could you even think of comparing the two?

 

Go with the Lord/TWC combo. They're not only more likely to make it into combat but they'll do more damage when they get there.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I haven't play tested any Thunderwolves yet, but looking at the numbers, yes, they would be better. Skyclaws are weaker and basically demand a 100+ pt HQ join them so their annoying headstrong ability does not kick in.

 

What I don't get from all the cavalry lists I see is, why spend 265 points on a Wolf Lord? Wouldn't it be better to have two sets of 4 Cavalry instead, which costs the same points?

[Grey Mage]

Theyre not the worst unit by any means.... that belongs to the predator sadly.

 

In anycase, Skyclaws are survivable compared to TWC in that they move faster accross the field- if you play on a larger board, their 13-18" a turn will get them where you need them faster, and potentially with less casualties. They can also deep strike, wich can be handy. There are also more of them, and more infantry eating attacks.

 

They do however, require more subtlety than TWC, who are a point and click kind of unit.

[Stormbrow II]

What I don't get from all the cavalry lists I see is, why spend 265 points on a Wolf Lord? Wouldn't it be better to have two sets of 4 Cavalry instead, which costs the same points?

Because the Lords give you an extra bit of combat punch but most importantly a Leadership boost. WS 4 and Leadership 8 aren't great and the only way to give the unit a boost to the latter is with an IC. The Lord does this and can seperate away from them too to attack another target if needs be. His higher Initiative and Attacks give you some punch before most other troops can do harm to your unit and he can used to reliably tie up enemy characters so they don't lay waste to the unit.

 

The main thing is the Ld boost - it stops your unit being Tank Shocked off the board which is arguably the TWC's Achilles heel. Their footprint is huge and they fall back 3D6" so when they fall back all that needs to happen is for a unit or two accompany them off the board. On that note, I'd recommend Saga of Majesty so that you can re-roll your Ld tests as the Lord and the unit can mangle stuff plenty without Warrior Born.

[Skirax]

Theyre not the worst unit by any means.... that belongs to the predator sadly.

 

In anycase, Skyclaws are survivable compared to TWC in that they move faster accross the field- if you play on a larger board, their 13-18" a turn will get them where you need them faster, and potentially with less casualties. They can also deep strike, wich can be handy. There are also more of them, and more infantry eating attacks.

 

They do however, require more subtlety than TWC, who are a point and click kind of unit.

I don't get this point? :whistling:

[Godhead]

Oddly enough, The lord protects your TWC in CC, and your TWC protects your lord during shooting. If you go with a frost blade or claw then you get int 5 which you cannot get from TWC. You also get two power weapons in one unit.

 

Another thing that i have ran into is a problem with the base size. I ran a list with 5 twc, wgbl and 2 fen wolves in a unit along with an Iron Priest on a TWC with 4 cyberwolves with an attached WGBL and 2 fen wolves, and I had issues maneuvering the units and often I couldn't get the entire unit into combat.

 

You are more vulnerable to hordes with the smaller TWC (or less squads) squad, but far far less vulnerable to shooting (which I have found to be the bane to TWC). You can actually hide your guys behind rhinos and the like.

[Grey Mage]

Theyre not the worst unit by any means.... that belongs to the predator sadly.

 

In anycase, Skyclaws are survivable compared to TWC in that they move faster accross the field- if you play on a larger board, their 13-18" a turn will get them where you need them faster, and potentially with less casualties. They can also deep strike, wich can be handy. There are also more of them, and more infantry eating attacks.

 

They do however, require more subtlety than TWC, who are a point and click kind of unit.

I don't get this point? :whistling:

What part?

 

They move 12" base, and then you run them? Or how that helps them survive?

[Godhead]

I still want predators with a plasma cannon turret and plasma cannon sponsons. Space Marines need more plasma cannons :)

[Valerian]

Are you serious? Skyclaws vs TWC? Skyclaws are the worst unit in the Codex. How could you even think of comparing the two?

 

I really can't see this. Sure, they would be better if you could attach a Wolf Guard Leader, but 18 points each to get Blood Claws as Jump Infantry is a pretty great deal. Sure, you have to send a babysitter with them, but one of our HQ as a Jump Infantry gives them good mobility and gets them into the fight, just like you would want to anyway, so it isn't a huge deal. A Wolf Priest really enhances the effectiveness of the Blood Claws unit and makes them a legitimate assault force to be dealt with. When not in charging range of an enemy unit the Blood Claws can move up to 18", which is excellent tactical mobility, while the TWC can only move up to 12", just like regular Infantry. TWC only get a mobility advantage when there is an enemy unit within 12" to charge.

 

SkyClaws are good for a force that isn't mechanized, as they give mobility to a primarily footslogging force that doesn't have much. They are especially good for robbing Blood Angels Assault Marines of their charge and preventing their Furious Charge.

 

Of course, TWC are good too, so either unit would make a good core assault force for your army. The TWC require that you go with a 3rd party provider for the appropriate models, however, so it may be easier for you to go with SkyClaws. I already had a Blood Claws unit in my pre-5th Edition codex army, so I just needed to pop off the regular backpacks and add Jump Packs to repurpose them for inclusion in my updated army, which made this the easy choice for me.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I wonder why Swiftclaws weren't mentioned by the OP. 500 points of bikes is pretty dang good.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

What I don't get from all the cavalry lists I see is, why spend 265 points on a Wolf Lord? Wouldn't it be better to have two sets of 4 Cavalry instead, which costs the same points?

Because the Lords give you an extra bit of combat punch but most importantly a Leadership boost. WS 4 and Leadership 8 aren't great and the only way to give the unit a boost to the latter is with an IC. The Lord does this and can seperate away from them too to attack another target if needs be. His higher Initiative and Attacks give you some punch before most other troops can do harm to your unit and he can used to reliably tie up enemy characters so they don't lay waste to the unit.

 

The main thing is the Ld boost - it stops your unit being Tank Shocked off the board which is arguably the TWC's Achilles heel. Their footprint is huge and they fall back 3D6" so when they fall back all that needs to happen is for a unit or two accompany them off the board. On that note, I'd recommend Saga of Majesty so that you can re-roll your Ld tests as the Lord and the unit can mangle stuff plenty without Warrior Born.

 

Oh I realize all that, but in essence you are paying twice as much for one unit. Does the Wolf Lord make the Cavalry unit twice as good? In most instances would his 5-6 power weapon attacks and 10 LD be better than having a whole other unit with ~18 rending attacks and 5 power weapon attacks? I am not so sure.

[Grey Mage]

What I don't get from all the cavalry lists I see is, why spend 265 points on a Wolf Lord? Wouldn't it be better to have two sets of 4 Cavalry instead, which costs the same points?

Because the Lords give you an extra bit of combat punch but most importantly a Leadership boost. WS 4 and Leadership 8 aren't great and the only way to give the unit a boost to the latter is with an IC. The Lord does this and can seperate away from them too to attack another target if needs be. His higher Initiative and Attacks give you some punch before most other troops can do harm to your unit and he can used to reliably tie up enemy characters so they don't lay waste to the unit.

 

The main thing is the Ld boost - it stops your unit being Tank Shocked off the board which is arguably the TWC's Achilles heel. Their footprint is huge and they fall back 3D6" so when they fall back all that needs to happen is for a unit or two accompany them off the board. On that note, I'd recommend Saga of Majesty so that you can re-roll your Ld tests as the Lord and the unit can mangle stuff plenty without Warrior Born.

 

Oh I realize all that, but in essence you are paying twice as much for one unit. Does the Wolf Lord make the Cavalry unit twice as good? In most instances would his 5-6 power weapon attacks and 10 LD be better than having a whole other unit with ~18 rending attacks and 5 power weapon attacks? I am not so sure.

Ahh, but you need to have an HQ unit anyways... you dont nessecarily need, or want, to use a second FA slot on TWC.

 

Or the expense for the models.

 

As for wether or not it makes them twice as good- arguably it does. A TWM'd Lord with a Frostblade, Belt of Russ, and SotWB as a potentially exponential kill factor to him, and goes at a higher I than the rest of the unit- wich means his attacks wont get stacked on enemy unit specials, but actually rend large sections of a unit apart. 230pts isnt so bad for all that.

 

Lets see... Wolf Lord charges, 6 attacks- all hit and wound, next round 12 attacks, all hit and wound... and so on. Assuming turn 2 charge, and an infinite supply of gaunts to kill.... 768 attacks by the end of round 5. Assuming your playing apocalypse, and your opponent brought several of the living tide-o-gaunts formation.

[Valerian]

Oh I realize all that, but in essence you are paying twice as much for one unit. Does the Wolf Lord make the Cavalry unit twice as good? In most instances would his 5-6 power weapon attacks and 10 LD be better than having a whole other unit with ~18 rending attacks and 5 power weapon attacks? I am not so sure.

 

Fred,

 

You have a good point, and the answer is, as usual, "it depends". Grey Mage provided a good answer, but I'll provide another. It depends on what you've got planned for your HQ selection(s) already, and what you need for your army to make it effective. For some folks' lists, a second pack of TWC might be the right choice, and will provide redundant assault units for you. However, many folks really want a "Herohammer" and are willing to throw the points into their Wolf Lord to make him as destructive a force on the battlefield as possible, then they build a unit that assists him (the TWC), and an army list to support them, all to enable him to do what he does best. If done right, and played well, it works. Either option is equally valid, so long as the army as a whole (a holistic approach to army building) is flexible and capable, and supports itself.

 

Also, as GM pointed out too, the TWC are a little hard to get hold of, and a little expensive, so it might be feasible to build a unit of 4+1, but not two units of 4 (or whatever).

 

V

[Wispy]

Valerian has a good point about model practicality and availability. Their are only a few options for models, and none of the sets third parties are making exceed five. And Russ help you if you're trying to make them yourself.

 

I'd like to add the Lord is actually a lot of fun. Having a formidable leader is fluffy, and I like the idea the most of my close combat potency is coming from the leader of my army. Plus initiative 5 is not to be scoff at, and really does give the TWC the edge in a lot of situations.

[Stormbrow II]

Wolf Priest

Well there's a problem right there. Wolf Priests as sucky compared to Rune Priests and Lords. Fearless and Preferred Enemy are good but I4 for a combat character isn't and he doesn't bring anything beyond that to the table.

 

The Claws might have the added mobility for the 1st 2 turns but after that the TWC definitely have it because they can cover between 19" and 24". There's also the problem of both units being shot at for the first two turns - its easier to kill a Marine than it is to kill a TWC with shooting. The WP does give Fearless but you can give the Lord re-rolls to Morale tests with Saga of Majesty to stop them running away.

 

Their are only a few options for models, and none of the sets third parties are making exceed five. And Russ help you if you're trying to make them yourself.

Click on my blog to see my PoorHammer attempts at making TWC. Its cheaper than Canis...

 

I wonder why Swiftclaws weren't mentioned by the OP. 500 points of bikes is pretty dang good.

The problem with them is they're pretty much confined to killing infantry as their BS 3 with Meltas is poor and they too will need a Wolf Priest to babysit them to get the most out of them in combat.

[Grey Mage]

I dunno... Wolf Priests are still valuable for being a defensive character- they come with a 4++ standard. I find my Wolf Priest survives the battle far more often then not, and at a bargain price compared to a decently equiped WGBL or WL, wich is important in smaller games- of if hes the second, or third, HQ.

[Stormbrow II]

Wolf Priests are still valuable for being a defensive character

That's his problem though - he's confined to the one use of boosting units in combat and is confined to them to get the most out of him whereas a Rune Priest is effective both in combat and at range (arguably the latter) but he's also giving you anti-psychic protection while a Lord is more killy and is more customisable so he can be more flexible overall and worth the points difference.

[Wispy]

Their are only a few options for models, and none of the sets third parties are making exceed five. And Russ help you if you're trying to make them yourself.

Click on my blog to see my PoorHammer attempts at making TWC. Its cheaper than Canis...

I've seen. Cheaper, sure. A giant head ache to make for someone like me? Yeah.

 

I'd actually rather spend a little so I don't have to stress myself out (steady, full time job helps as well, though it does kill me for time). Plus a lot of these third party models (such as Mythicast) are really affordable... $60 for 5, or something like that.

[Roland Durendal]

What I don't get from all the cavalry lists I see is, why spend 265 points on a Wolf Lord? Wouldn't it be better to have two sets of 4 Cavalry instead, which costs the same points?

Because the Lords give you an extra bit of combat punch but most importantly a Leadership boost. WS 4 and Leadership 8 aren't great and the only way to give the unit a boost to the latter is with an IC. The Lord does this and can seperate away from them too to attack another target if needs be. His higher Initiative and Attacks give you some punch before most other troops can do harm to your unit and he can used to reliably tie up enemy characters so they don't lay waste to the unit.

 

The main thing is the Ld boost - it stops your unit being Tank Shocked off the board which is arguably the TWC's Achilles heel. Their footprint is huge and they fall back 3D6" so when they fall back all that needs to happen is for a unit or two accompany them off the board. On that note, I'd recommend Saga of Majesty so that you can re-roll your Ld tests as the Lord and the unit can mangle stuff plenty without Warrior Born.

 

Oh I realize all that, but in essence you are paying twice as much for one unit. Does the Wolf Lord make the Cavalry unit twice as good? In most instances would his 5-6 power weapon attacks and 10 LD be better than having a whole other unit with ~18 rending attacks and 5 power weapon attacks? I am not so sure.

Ahh, but you need to have an HQ unit anyways... you dont nessecarily need, or want, to use a second FA slot on TWC.

 

Or the expense for the models.

 

As for wether or not it makes them twice as good- arguably it does. A TWM'd Lord with a Frostblade, Belt of Russ, and SotWB as a potentially exponential kill factor to him, and goes at a higher I than the rest of the unit- wich means his attacks wont get stacked on enemy unit specials, but actually rend large sections of a unit apart. 230pts isnt so bad for all that.

 

Lets see... Wolf Lord charges, 6 attacks- all hit and wound, next round 12 attacks, all hit and wound... and so on. Assuming turn 2 charge, and an infinite supply of gaunts to kill.... 768 attacks by the end of round 5. Assuming your playing apocalypse, and your opponent brought several of the living tide-o-gaunts formation.

 

 

Hey GMK, this is sort of a side bar rules related question, but it has to do with stacking of Warrior Born attacks. I thought you couldn't ever have more than a characteristic value of 10? I've played SotWB as being able to break this rule and grant more than 10 attacks, but I just want to be sure I'm right on the rules side of the house. Thanks!

[Blitzkreig]

Actually, you could theoretically have 100 attacks, but the characteristic printed cannot be more than 10.

 

And this question is best looked at from a fluff point of view. You are comparing the trouble-making new recruits to the hard as nails veterans who break in a beasty that would slaughter another marine. Who do you think is better?

[Grey Mage]

Wolf Priests are still valuable for being a defensive character

That's his problem though - he's confined to the one use of boosting units in combat and is confined to them to get the most out of him whereas a Rune Priest is effective both in combat and at range (arguably the latter) but he's also giving you anti-psychic protection while a Lord is more killy and is more customisable so he can be more flexible overall and worth the points difference.

- Maybe.

A Rune Priest simply doesnt buff the unit hes with. His CC abilities are a secondairy issue entirely- hes simply not good enough at it to take for the assault.

 

A Wolf Lord on the other hand buffs his squad through killing things at higher initiative and with good regularity- ie he helps win assaults. However, he doesnt help maximise the effect of the unit hes withs own abilities, wich in our codex can be prodigious.

 

Wolf Priest on the other hand are inately survivable with their 4++, just as killy as the rune priest with 4 PW attacks on the charge- and often better with the rerolls. They grant this ability directly to the unit theyre with, increasing their combat prowess aswell. They also add Fearless to the mixture, wich has a significantly lower drawback when you consider the boost they have to winning assaults from prefered enemy.

 

Customizability doesnt really come into it- a Wolf Priest is good just the way he comes standard, needing no other equipment unless you happen to have the spare points laying around. Hes awesome for the same reason that Wolf Totems are awesome, and the same reason that locking down farseers is often the key to beating an Eldar list. Rerolls really just are that amazing.

 

Wether its the 40 PW attacks of a tooled WG squad on the charge, or the 60ish smack downs of a bloodclaw squad on the rampage, the results are there to be seen.

 

Hey GMK, this is sort of a side bar rules related question, but it has to do with stacking of Warrior Born attacks. I thought you couldn't ever have more than a characteristic value of 10? I've played SotWB as being able to break this rule and grant more than 10 attacks, but I just want to be sure I'm right on the rules side of the house. Thanks!

Pg. 37 of the rule book states that attacks can go over 10. Its in the left hand column, last paragraph before the italic examples kick in.

[Valerian]

Concur with all points that GM just made above. Additionally, a lot of folks are playing with a Wolf Priest anyway, to provide that extremely valuable buff for an assault-oriented unit. If you like what he does, and are considering adding a Sky Claws pack to your force (as the OP is), then the Wolf Priest with a Jump Pack is a perfect fit.

 

As I said earlier, there is nothing wrong with a TWC pack; they might give your army exactly what it needs, and a lot of folks have been using them since last October and love them. That being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a large Sky Claw pack with a Wolf Priest. That unit, too, might provide your army exactly what it needs, and is perfectly viable. Depending on how large your force is, you might even find that you can afford and use both.

 

Valerian

[LoneSniperSG]

Theyre not the worst unit by any means.... that belongs to the predator sadly.

 

As a battletank, yes. Predators are crap. I can't speak too much negative about them, because across two games in one day, one of my Predators was fired on by 30 lascannon and missile blasts and didn't die. I annointed it with beer that night.

 

No. I'm not joking. I put beer on my Predator's hull.

 

This is what irks me. We have the paper-thin Predator and some people love it, yet some of those people hate the burly, beardy, working man's Leman Russ tank. Five times more tank than a Predator and people hate it. ;)

 

Anyway, I was going to shake a stick at Stormbrow II...

 

Don't write off Skyclaws so easily! I took a pack of ten with an attatched Rune Priest and throughout the entire game they rained on the Eldar's parade. The Farseer would try to zap something and be denied by the Rune Priest.

 

They're nasty, nasty units, especially when they have a meltagun.