Iron Warrior fluff help

[RagingGriffon]

Hey, I am away from all my materials so I need a little help. I remember Iron Warriors could use a unit of Bezerkers, but could they use a unit of Plague Marines? I don't think they can, but I could see maybe it work out like they use bio-weapons and chemicals. I hate straying from fluff, so I am just trying to get my facts straight.

[Lexington]

It's perfectly fine, by the background. Legions work together all of the time, and the Death Guard seem to hire themselves out, merc-style, like the rest of the god-aligned types. Feel free to mix and match as you wish!

[Mykra]

Hey, I am away from all my materials so I need a little help. I remember Iron Warriors could use a unit of Bezerkers, but could they use a unit of Plague Marines? I don't think they can, but I could see maybe it work out like they use bio-weapons and chemicals. I hate straying from fluff, so I am just trying to get my facts straight.

 

Alter the fluff to fit your fluff. Grab, say, the heavily armored heresy marines from Forge World with the extra armor plating, add in some servitor bits and pieces, and you have perfect reasoning for increased toughness and lowered I on the models, and the lack of fear? They are more machine than man, fear doesn't compute like it does with your fleshbag allies!

 

It'll be fluffy and a lot cooler than Iron Warriors + Plague Marines. ;)

[Brother Kovash]

Just go for it. If you use the old deathguard models, paint them up like Iron Warriors.

[RagingGriffon]

I appreciate the responses from Mykra and Brother Kovash, but I just don't run my armies that way. I tend to fall into the 2ed and 3ed mindset and I am just getting back into the game itself (I have been staying current with the Codexes pretty much the whole time). I am just looking for legit canon or Black Library references (I know some people don't consider BL canon).

[Brother Kovash]

Since I only started playing this year, I'm of a more myopic mindset. The way I look at it, if you take the time to buy the models and paint them up, then you shouldn't really limit yourself to the fluff if you want to try something new. I don't know much in the way of canon, having only read the Ultramarines omnibus so far.

[Vlâdvar The Destroyer]

Units of Berzerkers are quite common in Iron Warriors aremy, Check out the Storm of Iron book by Graham McNeill & there are Iron Warrior Berzerkers! As for Plague Marines, I'm planning on using "count as" ones too, as the characterists of the plague marine perfectly wourk well for counting as heavy armour & Bionics or that just have them simply as allies, like the Cleaved or the Purge...

[Rain]

Ok well I'm sure you know all about counts as and "it's your army do what you want" and all that, but honestly no it would not be fluffy. The thing you have to realize about IW is that they are cynical and paranoid and so mistrust other Chaos forces quite a lot meaning that they would probably not trust a unit of DG enough to fight alongside them especially as they are so obviously mutated and tainted. In fact, although DG do sometimes ally with other legions, it has been specifically stated that IW only do so very rarely due to their paranoia, and I would logically surmise that when they do it's with the less mutated undivided legions as the IW also abhor mutations and actually amputate their own mutations if they get them.

 

The reason IW had Berzerkers is because there were certain IW units were used constantly in the role of breach taking and this was very bloody and brutal work that drove those particular IW to eventually go to a kind of soft Khorne worship. Thing is though, they don't really worship Khorne per se, they are just brutal killers who Khorne blesses for being brutal killers so they should probably not be modeled with bunny ears or anything like that.

 

And yeah, I'm like you, I miss 3rd edition as the golden age of 40k, I loved all of the variant lists and quirky fluff based armies so good on you for trying to stick to it.

[RagingGriffon]

Ok well I'm sure you know all about counts as and "it's your army do what you want" and all that, but honestly no it would not be fluffy. The thing you have to realize about IW is that they are cynical and paranoid and so mistrust other Chaos forces quite a lot meaning that they would probably not trust a unit of DG enough to fight alongside them especially as they are so obviously mutated and tainted. In fact, although DG do sometimes ally with other legions, it has been specifically stated that IW only do so very rarely due to their paranoia, and I would logically surmise that when they do it's with the less mutated undivided legions as the IW also abhor mutations and actually amputate their own mutations if they get them.

 

The reason IW had Berzerkers is because there were certain IW units were used constantly in the role of breach taking and this was very bloody and brutal work that drove those particular IW to eventually go to a kind of soft Khorne worship. Thing is though, they don't really worship Khorne per se, they are just brutal killers who Khorne blesses for being brutal killers so they should probably not be modeled with bunny ears or anything like that.

 

And yeah, I'm like you, I miss 3rd edition as the golden age of 40k, I loved all of the variant lists and quirky fluff based armies so good on you for trying to stick to it.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured. That means I will be driven towards Black Legion as my second army. That's all good, though. I have a squad of painted up IW's, a 5-man old-metal Termies in IW, and a Chaos Lord in IW paint. Maybe I will eBay them.

[chaplain belisarius]

are you painting your black legion old school with the silver trim or with the new gold trim (ugh!) ?

 

BL let you do whatever you want and still be fluffy plus you can take abaddon! :pirate:

 

I miss 3rd edition too...

[Mykra]

I appreciate the responses from Mykra and Brother Kovash, but I just don't run my armies that way. I tend to fall into the 2ed and 3ed mindset and I am just getting back into the game itself (I have been staying current with the Codexes pretty much the whole time). I am just looking for legit canon or Black Library references (I know some people don't consider BL canon).

 

Oh trust me, I know where you are coming from, I still have my Rogue trader book on the shelf by all the other long gone Codex's. My main thing is that Chaos doesn't really care if you want to have anything to do with them or not, by subjecting yourself to their power and domains they are going to get their claws in you either through outright swapping of promises or slow corruption. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, or the We Hate Daemons Chaos Marines will be corrupted given enough time.

 

Just think of normal trench warfare. It's dirty, it's rotten, it's grimy and it's miserable. Nurgle has sweet dreams of places like that. Spend enough time in warzones like that and the Iron Warriors could find themselves bearing the touch of Nurgle whether or not they call themselves Plague Marines. The one constant to Chaos fluff is that the specialty troops come from everywhere; Sure, Berzerkers have their Legions that more commonly fall into their ranks than others, so do Plague Marines, but be it Black Legion or Night Lord or Iron Warrior, they all have lost numbers to each cult. So if you are looking for 'fluffy' backing to usage, it's there. The catch is that Legions like the Lords and Warriors are not dominated by these troops. Having three units of Plague Marines to one unit of 'normal' Warriors is un-fluffy, while having three units of Chaos Marines and one unit of Plague Marines makes perfect sense. (And that's where my suggestion came in. If you want to be competitive and fluffy, using some clever re-imagining of troops is a wonderful way to do it. If you must play by Letter of the Law, then the 3:1 handicap if you will is still fluffy and legit.)

 

Also, don't forget it all starts at the top. The Warsmith in your case. Your army is a roving band of Space Pirates. If the Warsmith is corrupted, then his army will have more corrupted troops than his more puritanical cousins working in other sectors of space, and vice versa. It can be easily rationalized as something as 'simple' as a Daemon Weapon your Lord is using tearing his soul apart and those closest to him - his rank and file units, to something more grandiose (and slightly out of character but not completely breaking all logic or rationale) of a Warsmith promising over his soul and those of his followers to a specific God. Hell, didn't the Warrior's own Primarch make a deal and ascend to Daemonhood?

 

So if it's the Warrior Legion you like the most, and cult troops you want to implement in your army, then by all means keep them. Sure, Black Legion is more common for the meshed lists, but Iron Warriors have them as well.

[Rain]

No, they really don't. There has not only never been a canon account of Iron Warrior cult troops, there has actually been canon stating the opposite, that is, that they do not worship Chaos and distrust all but their wargear. Until something else says otherwise, that's how it stands. In fact, there was some pretty old fluff about a Thousand Sons ex-techmarine lord that defected to the Iron Warriors and had all of the Tzeentch worshipers in his old warband executed since the IW don't abide cultists. I mean sure you can make stuff up, but then you're making stuff up and not playing fluffy. It's your choice to do so, but just because your TS are "robots" and your PM's are "heavy assault troops" doesn't make your army fluffy.

[Lay]

In fact, there was some pretty old fluff about a Thousand Sons ex-techmarine lord that defected to the Iron Warriors and had all of the Tzeentch worshipers in his old warband executed since the IW don't abide cultists.

Haha, the infamous Murchad Kite, Pete Haines' own warsmith.

[Lexington]

No, they really don't. There has not only never been a canon account of Iron Warrior cult troops, there has actually been canon stating the opposite, that is, that they do not worship Chaos and distrust all but their wargear.

Well, sure, in ideal circumstances, they might not use cult troops. However, reality for the Chaos Legions is anything but ideal. That means one makes compromises in order to further one's goals.

 

I mean sure you can make stuff up, but then you're making stuff up and not playing fluffy. It's your choice to do so, but just because your TS are "robots" and your PM's are "heavy assault troops" doesn't make your army fluffy.

Seems a little harsh, doesn't it? Technically, unless you've only modeled named characters from novels, you're not "playing fluffy," since you're making up all sorts of ad-hoc facts about a force.

[chaplain belisarius]

it is indeed murchad kite-well spotted! :)

[minigun762]

I fully agree that IW are one of the more "pure" Legions but I do believe that they are also known for their pragmatism. An example would be that even though there is specific mention that they don't believe in daemonic possession, Honsou has a possessed bodyguard at one point.

 

In my eyes, there is a big difference between inviting another Legion's marines into your warband as equals and using them in a temporary alliance or out of mutual benefit. In that light, I think the idea of a Warsmith exploiting other Marines to further his goals is entirely justified. Of course he'll just keep an eye out (and a combat knife ready) for when they try to betray him.

[Hyaenidae]

I agree with minigun762. Just take a look through 'Iron Warrior' and 'The Chapter's Due'; Honsou had quite a few Berzerker warbands under his flag. He just saw them as expendable, and wasted their lives accordingly whenever he saw fit. No Iron Warrior Warsmith would mind a few indebted 'Meat Shields' in between himself and his objective, especially meat shields that don't feel pain.

[Requiemnex]

**************** HUGE SPOILERS INTO THE BOOKS ******************

 

 

 

 

 

I back minigun 100% here. Being an Iron Warrior player myself and having read all the books that even mention the word Iron Warrior in them. There are absolutely armies that utilize things against their beliefs. For instance the warsmith in Storm of Iron used a sorcerer to gather intel and create an obliterator during the siege and then executed him after his usefulness was exhausted. Furthermore, one of the lead charecters in Storm of Iron, bathed in blood ran into combat without consideration for his own welbeing nor anyone around him.. Sounds very bezerkerish to me... in fact...... The slave he took found his armor that had been blessed by the god of khorne and wielded his armor to later become a bloodthirster....... The warsmith in the novel becomes a daemon prince..

 

Now granted in Dark Sky Black Sun Honu pretty much gives the big <_< you to Abaddon and two other commanders of iron warrior forces and thus brings on a civil war. During this book however there are mentions of the farming of people for their skin to create wombs to spawn more chaos space marines. Some of these spawns didnt turn out so pretty and thus were tossed away creating an entire society of fleshless beings. So you can see just using a few lines from the book you can justify many things... This being said.. No the Iron warriors would not "team up with" another legion but they may utilize something's resource only to erradicate it once it has worn out its welcome.

 

The iron warriors at first glance appear to be this siege engine facless army that bombards from afar but really they utilize many different tactics to include using cultists to drive trucks of IG into mine fields and the line of fire. They also used covert actions utlizing a mutated being that mascaraded as a techmarine to enter the sanctom. Its all about the situation and how the units are used.

[Rain]

@ lots of people: First of all, Honsou is not a "real" Iron Warrior, he is part Imperial Fist, was created after the Heresy, and is a BL character only. Second of all, yes, the Warsmith (who was a real IW) did use sorcerers, but where in the official fluff has it even said that the IW do not have/use sorcery? It never has, it has simply stated that they lack faith in general and do not worship the gods. Also, yes, the IW do use berzerkers, and I have already explained this, they are the exception that proves the rule when it comes to IW and cults. Oh and the Warsmith did not execute the sorcerer because his usefulness had run out and IW hate sorcs, he executed him because the sorc lied about the Imperials being able to send a distress signal as he was not able to block the signal; he was executed for failure, and for lying to the lord, just like any Chaos marine would have been.

 

@Lexington: Come on now, you know perfectly well that that is committing a logical fallacy, doing something that is specifically stated as not in the IW's nature/repertoire is quite different from using a character that has never been explicitly named, but who in a way is implied to exist as there are many IW lords, and the fluff has never stated that your lord is not one of them, though it has stated that as he is an IW he conforms to the things that make an IW an IW. If the fluff were to specifically state "X, Y, Z are the old Iron Warrior lords" like how all of the Ultra captains have been named, then yes indeed making your own violates fluff, but until that happens it's fine as long as your Warsmith isn't a Slaanesh worshiper with an army of plague marines and berzerkers.

[Lexington]

doing something that is specifically stated as not in the IW's nature/repertoire is quite different from using a character that has never been explicitly named, but who in a way is implied to exist

It's not stated as being absolutely necessary to the IW's character, however. What's stated is that the Iron Warriors "distrust" those who worship the Chaos Gods. There's nothing physically stopping them from fighting alongside Berzerkers, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines or Plague Marines, and if they do, the Iron Warrior Police aren't going to show up and strip them of their Iron Warriors License (void in Utah). The Iron Warriors, as a Chapter, may have some suspicions about those frothy Warp-lovers, but a shrewd Warsmith knows useful mercenaries when he sees them.

[robertsjf]

No Lexington, the IW never fight alongside those chaos worshipping goons! Istvaan? The IW were completely responsible for their own part of the drop zone and all the other traitor legions gave them a safe 25 mile buffer zone. Siege of Terra? The IW had the entire north wall all to themselves and forced the chaos loving dogs to attack from the complete opposite end of the palace so they wouldn't even have to look at them.

[Requiemnex]

@ lots of people: First of all, Honsou is not a "real" Iron Warrior, he is part Imperial Fist, was created after the Heresy, and is a BL character only. Second of all, yes, the Warsmith (who was a real IW) did use sorcerers, but where in the official fluff has it even said that the IW do not have/use sorcery? It never has, it has simply stated that they lack faith in general and do not worship the gods. Also, yes, the IW do use berzerkers, and I have already explained this, they are the exception that proves the rule when it comes to IW and cults. Oh and the Warsmith did not execute the sorcerer because his usefulness had run out and IW hate sorcs, he executed him because the sorc lied about the Imperials being able to send a distress signal as he was not able to block the signal; he was executed for failure, and for lying to the lord, just like any Chaos marine would have been.

 

@Lexington: Come on now, you know perfectly well that that is committing a logical fallacy, doing something that is specifically stated as not in the IW's nature/repertoire is quite different from using a character that has never been explicitly named, but who in a way is implied to exist as there are many IW lords, and the fluff has never stated that your lord is not one of them, though it has stated that as he is an IW he conforms to the things that make an IW an IW. If the fluff were to specifically state "X, Y, Z are the old Iron Warrior lords" like how all of the Ultra captains have been named, then yes indeed making your own violates fluff, but until that happens it's fine as long as your Warsmith isn't a Slaanesh worshiper with an army of plague marines and berzerkers.

 

 

Crap, good call on the sorc. You are right that Honsou was not a "real" Iron Warrior created from their seed and he was bastardized for it but the point is that in the fluff this does happen. Not to say that it is a regular event but that it is plausable if someone wanted to play a fluffy army that it could happen if that person decided to create that type of line or story to their army.

[Rain]

It might or might not be necessary to the character, it's difficult to really get into it with fictional characters so if we want to remain "fluffy" we should follow what the canon says, that's kind of the definition of fluffy. I mean yes, if this was all real, an IW could feasibly tolerate or even like cult troops but it's not real, and in general this universe puts theme and feel above "what would really happen" so each faction should follow its theme, the theme for IW is technology, big hazard striped vehicles, and no cults/mutations the fluff is informed by this theme and we should be as well when designing armies that fit the theme.

 

I mean if a shrewd Warsmith would field plague marines, why wouldn't shrewd Imperials realize that instead of fighting ground wars so much, they should just bombard their enemies from space, or even bait them with a penal regiment first to make sure they don't go underground and then bombard them? Oh and in the age of high powered lasers and planet destroying torpedoes, why are so many of the super soldiers still reliant on the tactic of "run in and bash them until they stop moving"? Because SM generally follow the theme of knights/centurions etc and those historical warriors used swords/axes and so theme demands the SM to as well, not supposition over what an actual unit like this would do, but theme.

[quiethood]

I miss the days of marks instead of icons, and the lose a FA for a HS slot on the FoC. That would probably put a lot of the arguments on fluffy armies to bed. Or maybe even the 3.5 dex style 1 page of rules for the different legions. I mean if you go by the IA fluff, Iron Warriors and Night Lords would be more like a regular space marine army with the 0-1 restrictions on things like cult troops, possessed, and Demon Princes. That's the hard part of the game vs fluff argument. They are supose to be "chaos" marines they followed Horus right? But wait, they don't use demons or worship the Dark Gods right? Well, damn they just painted themselves into a corner when it comes to the fluff-o-manics. Maybe we just want too much from our toy soldiers! :P

[Culebras]

Rust Guard? Scrap guards?

 

Having not looked at the chaos codex in a while, I may be wrong, but the idea always stuck with me that each of the unaligned chaos legions can associate with all four chaos gods, but have something else that dominates their focus.

 

Word bearers = faith

Night Lords = terror

Iron warrios = machines

 

From there, I would suggest you just focus on how Nurgle would work his slimy way into the Iron Warriors. Maybe, you can call your plague marines "rust guard" and say they were dishonored because they lost and had to take on damaged or possesed armor as punishment. Maybe, they have had to scavenge some of their weapons from the scrap yard of a chaos forge world and it has had an unwanted effect. If a Chaos lord either becomes a Demon prince or a spawn, couldn't the same fate await a regular squad?