Why are you fielding a pure force?

[RexTalon]

I was reading one of the other threads where someone was crying about how few options a "pure GK" force has. I have never understood why people do this.

 

You're already limiting yourself to fielding a section from a codex. Why cry that it's not enough? You're limiting yourself and you want to know why GW is tying your hands? They aren't, YOU are.

 

Can someone please explain this insanity?

[Valerian]

I was reading one of the other threads where someone was crying about how few options a "pure GK" force has. I have never understood why people do this.

 

You're already limiting yourself to fielding a section from a codex. Why cry that it's not enough? You're limiting yourself and you want to know why GW is tying your hands? They aren't, YOU are.

 

Can someone please explain this insanity?

 

Er, well, I don't think anyone could ever accuse me of crying about anything in the DH codex, but I do have a "pure" Grey Knights army. If you want to know why I have chosen to limit myself in this way, it is rather simple and probably self-evident. I play "pure" Grey Knights because I want to play Grey Knights. I'm not interested in inducted Guardsmen, or Assassins, or Daemonhosts, or any of the other available choices that a Daemonhunter army can chose from. I want to play the Knights because it is they that I love; it's their models, their background material, their place in the 40k universe that I'm interested in.

 

When GW designers "reimagined" the Ordo Malleus in the production of the 3rd edition Codex: Daemonhunters, they developed in a way in which it really was meant for a player to draw from a variety of Imperial resources to form a force or detachment to fight with. Grey Knights units were just one "pool" to take from, and build a more viable and competetive list, players would really need to pick and chose from several pools: IST and transports, perhaps, inducted Guard or other Marines, some Knights, etc., etc. The thing that I think the designers didn't forsee is the attraction of a rather significant portion of the player base that isn't really interested in all of the non-Grey Knight stuff. I am hopefull, and perhaps overly optimistic, that this has been noticed by the decision-makers and designers at GW, and that the next release will allow for a viable stand-alone pure Grey Knights option.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Shoitaan]

Flavour and preference?

 

Some people don't want to field Inquisition with their nice pure female SoB squads? Or crummy looking guard models next to their grey knights?

 

As far as I know (for example) sisters of battle was a seperate codex before being merged with Inquisition to become witchunters so some people refuse to recognise the Inq part of the army and prefer to play a pure sisters army like what originally existed. When you read books and stuff you hear about an order of sisters battling against enemy [x]. Not, sisters of battle backed up with a regiment of Inquisitorial storm troopers providing a firebase.

 

So yeah... flavour and preferences :/

[Marid]

I like the other elements of the Inquisition, so I can only postulate that some like the idea of a "Knights of Camelot" like army. The super elite against the hordes. Everyone is a knight of the round table led by a grand master King Arthur with perhaps an inquisitor Merlin in mix. Regular troops don't fit very well in such a romantic (for lack of a better word) army.

 

Me, I like sending in the storm troopers backed up by heavy hittin' terminators with the iron hammer that is a Malleus inquisitor coldly observing from afar. :huh:

[RexTalon]

@ Val and Sho, I can understand that you want to field a certain type of complete army that might be able to exist in some rare instances of fluff but I haven't really read anything that backs it up. As far as I can see, the GK were reimagined so they would start to make more sense and fit in with the rest of the fluff.

However, let me point out before this goes any further that I appreciate the angle you're taking. As an IG player, I'd love to field a fast attack desert army (ala WW2 north africa desert rats) but it's just not possible, so I build what I can from the actual choices and bide my time until more IG wheeled FW models come out.

 

@ Marid: that doesn't really follow. You're saying elitiest in the same sentence as the word army. Any successful army should never consist of a single type of soldier, elite or not. The codex offers choices specifically because romantic ideas have no place in war. Some of the best games I've ever had are the bloodiest. I agree with your assessment of the stormies. They die like soldiers should. So that leads me to ask, what's wrong with fielding converted scouts and using the stormtrooper rules for them saying they're GK initiates?

[Doomaflatchi]

@ Marid: that doesn't really follow. You're saying elitiest in the same sentence as the word army. Any successful army should never consist of a single type of soldier, elite or not. The codex offers choices specifically because romantic ideas have no place in war.

Deathwing. Stealer-shock. Imperial Guard Armored Corps. Nob Bikerz. Nidzilla. Daemon-bombers. Dark Eldar Raider-spam. Wych Cult.

 

Many successful and famous army builds rely on specializing the force with one type of (usually elite) unit. Agree or not, it's a core feature of the game, and almost every army has at least one build that's highly specialized in such a manner. It's a growth from the simple and understandable reaction of "I'm not terribly fond of most of the units in this army, but I really like this unit here. How many of them can I take?"

 

So that leads me to ask, what's wrong with fielding converted scouts and using the stormtrooper rules for them saying they're GK initiates?

Simply put, there's nothing in the fluff that suggests that Grey Knight initiates fight on actual battlefields. Quite the opposite, actually - it's implied that they go through so much training that most don't survive, and since Grey Knights are trained to focus their power to be incorruptible by the forces of the Daemonic, it would be counter-intuitive to baptize them in the fires of war against those same foes before their defenses were prepared. Heck, the Grey Knights slaughter any Guardsmen that help them (see: Redeemer Force) because no mind not fully prepared by Grey Knight training can be trusted to withstand the insidious force of Daemonic corruption. Given this attitude, if they fielded their initiates, they'd have to kill them all at the end of the fight! Somewhat counter-intuitive, no? :(

 

Can someone please explain this insanity?

I can only speak for myself, but for me, it comes down to several reasons:

 

1) I really love the Grey Knight fluff and story.

2) When I got into 40k, I wanted to pick an army where proper tactical application would be the single most important factor in my success or failure. Grey Knights achieve this on a number of levels, which I'll not delve into here for brevity's sake. Ask if you're really that interested.

3) I think their models are among the most beautiful in all of 40k. Seriously, I love painting these guys. Guardsmen, on the other hand, bother me - I had to paint up two squads of 5 for a tournament recently to get my army size up high enough, and it was one of the most miserable experiences I've ever had with the hobby. I don't know why, but I hated painting them. On the other hand, I've enjoyed painting each Grey Knight more than the last.

4) A small, elitist part of me likes playing an army that no one else has. A part of me just hates mirror matches, and finds them boring. A part of me loves seeing the look on people's faces when they see my army, and immediately go "Ooooh! Cool!"

[greatcrusade08]

Is it insanity?

First off the grey knights are a SM chapter and as such should be self sustainable wothout the need for inquisition, who according to fluff dont always take a huge part in battels anyway.. just becuase they both work for the ordo malleus doesnt mean they form the same army..

[Aidoneus]

Is it insanity?

First off the grey knights are a SM chapter and as such should be self sustainable wothout the need for inquisition, who according to fluff dont always take a huge part in battels anyway.. just becuase they both work for the ordo malleus doesnt mean they form the same army..

^^^ What he said.

 

Saying that the GKs work with the OM means that they share information and work towards common goals. It doesn't necessarily mean that they stand next to each other on the battlefield. Most Inq fluff never deals with actual combat (some exceptions, but not many). Inquisitors tend to be the investigative and leadership roles. Maybe they'll requisition some nearby IG, or some of the more influential ones might even have their own cadre of storm troopers, but by and large they rely on outside help to fight anything bigger than a very small skirmish. For a battle the size of a typical 40k game, the Inq is most likely going to be monitoring and directing the battle from somewhere else.

 

The GKs, on the other hand, are very much get-your-hands-dirty kind of guys. They're the ones who will be fighting the major engagements 90% of the time. And even if the Inq takes to the field with his men, the GKs will most likely be elsewhere on the field, doing their own thing. And don't forget, GKs are fully independent, so there are plenty of times where they'll be fighting battles that the OM has nothing to do with whatsoever.

 

Given that, it makes complete sense to want to play a pure GK force. Aside from fluff, it also gives the army a nice, unified feel, GK units synergize well and allow for flexible Water tactics more than other units, and the models are just gorgeous!

[Gentlemanloser]

If I liked the Army men, I'd play an IG army. I don't want to play 'normal' humans in a fantastic 40K game.

 

I like Space Paladins. And every Space Marine I field being a Psychic. I like small elite armies over hordes. The GKs fit all this, and tick every box for me.

 

The other Marine armies, don't.

 

Plus the GKT mini's are probably still the best mini's GW have ever made.

[chaplain belisarius]

i field a pure SOB force because i like the fluff, i like the models and i like the challenge of getting the best out of my SOB. If its not a SOB then its not in my army...this is my armys fluff-its a force of sisters of battle smiting the heretics with the holy trinity of bolter, melta and flamer!

 

All i need is for gw to update the dex a bit (35 pt rhinos perhaps?) and do some lovely plastic sob...and do the same for the GK too! (us inquisition army commanders must stick together after all..)

[RexTalon]

Its going to be a few days before I can get to sit down at an actual computer instead of trying to type this out on my phone, but suffice to say that the last couple of posts are the best answers I've seen. The one about IG armored company and such is a little off kilter. The deathwing and genestealer forces are really the only accurate examples but you never hear those army commanders complaining about lack of selection. They know they're limiting themselves, and they're okay with that. The only people I hear complaining are the GK players, but maybe my opinion is a bit biased.

 

Like I said, I like their imagry, and the idea of fielding an all GK army but it seems to me they're not really deployed that way. I can't disagree that it looks and sounds awesome.

[WAR]

The idea of running an all female army that in the modern world are considered religious zealots but in 40k are considered religious. Beautiful models designed by Jes Goodwin, one of the few Codexes Gav Thorpe did not mess up (2nd edition) and no one else was playing them at time.

[chaplain belisarius]

plus the sob are fun (divine guidance and flamers along with rapidfiring bolters is great when it works...:)

 

If you do go for a pure list-read lots of fluff and work out how your army will be limited (my army only has SOB-thats it and because of this i struggle to field any long range or assault troops apart from seraphim and exorcists but its ok..im fluffy so surely the emperor will reward me?)

[number6]

It says right in the DH codex that the army was designed to work alongside either the IG or the SM codexes. So from a game standpoint, GW didn't consider the army limited at all, and they made no effort to make the GKs a viably balanced force. The fact that many of us were able to make pure GK work had more to do with the overall 40K game rules of 3rd and 4th edition than because GKs really were all that awesome.

 

Again, all just from the game perspective, irrespective of any other consideration.

 

As for why so many DH gamers prefer pure GK to any other build, I'm gonna go with gentlemanloser's post. Says it all for me. (Though I seldom played pure GK, I am definitely "majority" GK and consider my armies GK armies and not anything else.)

 

If I liked the Army men, I'd play an IG army. I don't want to play 'normal' humans in a fantastic 40K game.

 

I like Space Paladins. And every Space Marine I field being a Psychic. I like small elite armies over hordes. The GKs fit all this, and tick every box for me.

 

The other Marine armies, don't.

 

Plus the GKT mini's are probably still the best mini's GW have ever made.

 

The GKT models are the reason I even play 40K at all. If they didn't exist, I very likely would never have gotten hooked on the hobby.

[Aidoneus]

The deathwing and genestealer forces are really the only accurate examples but you never hear those army commanders complaining about lack of selection. They know they're limiting themselves, and they're okay with that. The only people I hear complaining are the GK players, but maybe my opinion is a bit biased.

Thinking about it some more, I'm not sure I agree that pure-GK players complain all that much about unit selection. I never really have, and with possibly a couple exceptions I can't really remember other people complaining about that specifically. Now, don't get me wrong, we complain all the time about how outdated our rules are and how GW clearly doesn't care about supporting our army. But that's something else entirely, and applies to all DH players equally. As far as I've seen though, pure-GK players are aware that they're limiting themselves, and accept the consequences of that.

 

Perhaps if you could give examples of people complaining like that, we might understand where you're coming from.

[Judanas]

I play Pure Sisters because I don't want stormtroopers, I want an army of devoted religious borderline saints. I don't want the radicals of the inquisition or the mutilated husks from the dark parts of the Ecclesiarchy, I want a pure and noble force striving against the darkness with light and fire and faith and nobility of spirit.

 

I play pure Sisters because I love the Sisters of Battle and I run a lot of tanks because I love tanks. I know it limits me a little but it's what I do.

 

(Well ok, my force has elite inquisitors in it but only so I can steal their land raiders. Damn them not being a universal designated transport...looking at you new blood angels 'dex...)

[Gentlemanloser]

I think the only viable gripe we could have about limited units is the utter lack of Fast Attack units, of any type in the Codex. No Teleport PAGK don't count. The WH have a veritable wealth of them compared to the DH...

 

Yes, not using Inquisitors or Stormtroopers is just as much of a personal limitation that Deathwing Players choose. But the total options available to the DH is so much less than any other Codex out there, possibly bar the poor Necrons.

[greatcrusade08]

quick Q, would GK ever use jump packs, becuase that would be awesome, storm bolters and NFMs with jump packs.....

[Gentlemanloser]

As long as they didn't cost 50 points a pop. :)

[greatcrusade08]

As long as they didn't cost 50 points a pop. :)

 

i think 35 would be acceptable..

 

if we could get meltgun equivalents it would remove the need for LRs/dread and means we could actually get minis on the board.. i say let us guys write the new dex..

i hope your listening GW :P

[chaplain belisarius]

ok...only if i can write the next SOB dex...:)

[templargdt]

Like others have said, I love the Grey Knights fluff and (especially!) their models. I'm not hugely opposed to bringing in some IG types to have some sort of chance of victory, but I really dislike doing so since I like Grey Knights and not Guardsmen. So I long for a competitive pure Grey Knights force.

[Inquisitor =D=]

Insanity?...

Insanity?

This Is Titan!

-Grand Master Leonidas

 

^_^ ^_^ Couldn't help myself.

 

Personally I fell in love with the Ordo Malleus as a whole. But I play Pure Grey Knights most of the time for the awesome. For the miniatures and for the admiration of all those marine players who STILL haven't finished painting their miniatures. Makes me smile every time. :P Play them for that, I play them because even though my codex is Ancient I can still compete.

 

And ya know what?

 

When that bright and shiny codex hits the shelves in the distant future, I'm gonna be there laughing with my fully painted army. Evil laugh type! I've been practicing even. Worries my co-workers sometimes. ;) "Aaahh-Hahahahahaha!!"

 

=]D[=

[Cpt_Reaper]

I run a pure GK force and a pure Stormtrooper force. This is due to one reason only...

 

 

Daemonhost

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Ok from someone who has collected these SoB since they first graced us a few years ago now, i can say i play Pure most of the time, yes i do actually own DH Inq Rex, a WH Inq (hellsing version) and a WH Inq Lord in powr armour.

Now i play most games with jut the Sisters, but sometimes i know i need just that little more power for game, especially against SM or Mech armies.

For them i went and got them a LR and a LR Promethius.

The promethius is so good for SoB, grants +1 to reserve rolls, give you Flanked march, and has 12 heavy bloter shots (re-rolling misses) per round.

Orbital bombardment is nice too, tricky to use but great for taking out Tanks and like if you predict there deployments.

 

But with over 10k+ points of SoB alone i rarely use the Inquisistion at all.