Why are you fielding a pure force?

[Bishoujo]

I field "pure" armies 100% by choice. That's the way that my vision of my army is supposed to be played.

 

My Daemon Hunters army is pure Grey Knights.

 

My Witch Hunters army is pure Sisters of Battle.

 

My Chaos army fields no cult troops other than Thousand Sons.

 

My DIY Dark Angels successor chapter uses the Blood Angels codex for the fast vehicles (fits my fluff) but ignores things like death company, sanguinary guard and librarian dreads because they don't fit my fluff.

 

I do these things by choice, and they certainly do limit my options in many cases. However, you will never see me complain about my self-imposed lack of choices. That's just silly.

 

I can wish (and I do) that I will someday see a Grey Knights codex, and a Sisters / Ecclesiarchy codex - but until then, I make do with what choices I have. :P

[Brovius]

@ Marid: that doesn't really follow. You're saying elitiest in the same sentence as the word army. Any successful army should never consist of a single type of soldier, elite or not.

 

People who think Grey Knights are an entire army of just one unit are idiots.

Going by that logic, Space Marines are entire armies of a single unit, too. You have SMs with guns, Sms with jump packs, SMs with bigger guns, SMs with bigger armour and SMs who tell the other SMs what to do.

 

The reason Grey Knights players are complaining is because we don't have the current variety to make a diverse or competitive army.

Do you honestly think you would win many games if you could only field Assault Marines, Land Raiders and LC-Terminators?

Lack of choice leads to lack of tactics. Grey Knights players complain because we want to be able to do more with our army. Space Marine players would be whining if they had only the choices listed above, and had to resort to over-priced Guardsmen to do everything else.

 

Chaos Daemons got a stand-alone army, Grey Knights want one too. It's not too much to ask

[RexTalon]

The reason Grey Knights players are complaining is because we don't have the current variety to make a diverse or competitive army.

Do you honestly think you would win many games if you could only field Assault Marines, Land Raiders and LC-Terminators?

Lack of choice leads to lack of tactics. Grey Knights players complain because we want to be able to do more with our army. Space Marine players would be whining if they had only the choices listed above, and had to resort to over-priced Guardsmen to do everything else.

 

Chaos Daemons got a stand-alone army, Grey Knights want one too. It's not too much to ask

You're right that Deamons got their own army but that doesn't completely negate the fact that DH aren't SUPPOSED to ALWAYS be able to be a complete army. See, your codex is written with all those other choices already in it, and somewhere in there is says you COULD field a pure GK force. It doesn't say that you should, or that you will be competitive or balanced. Yes, taking an army with only Assault Marines, Land Raiders, and LC-Termies would be kinda silly (unless you're BA), but that's analogous to what you're actually doing. You're choosing certain entries from the completed list and complaining that they don't make an army.

 

Yes, SM players would complain if they were facing the same restrictions but the GK aren't supposed to be a fighting force that shows up on every battlefield across the galaxy and fights every foe. They're supposed to show their pointy helmets only when the Deamonic incursion warrants such a use of force because they are so few, so special, and so powerful. They are the most elite, not because they can take anyone that comes their way, but because they're so specialized. They're meant to fight Deamons.

 

That said, they do need a rewrite, but honestly, I hope they don't get ALL the options allowed to SM... (Especially since DA aren't even allowed the same options)

 

Also, I don't think you've fully absorbed the new IG codex. I think they're cheaper than you make them sound. (unless you're talking about the Stormies from the DH list, in which case, I agree)

[greatcrusade08]

I field "pure" armies 100% by choice. That's the way that my vision of my army is supposed to be played.

 

I do these things by choice, and they certainly do limit my options in many cases. However, you will never see me complain about my self-imposed lack of choices. That's just silly.

 

I tip my hat to you.. building themed armies is the only way to go in my opinion.. I know others will disagree but it gives you a direction and drive to continue building the army.

 

As for limiting yourself i use pretty much pure C:SM scouts (i include captain, t-fires and a couple of typhoons but thats it) and i get on just fine.. infact people wont play 'friendlies' at my local games club anymore, i only pull them out for more competative games now..

But saying that my GKs have been storming through (4/1/1 at present).. i might have to start pulling togetehr my themed 3rd co Ultras just to give guys a chance :rolleyes:

[Brovius]

You're right that Deamons got their own army but that doesn't completely negate the fact that DH aren't SUPPOSED to ALWAYS be able to be a complete army. See, your codex is written with all those other choices already in it, and somewhere in there is says you COULD field a pure GK force. It doesn't say that you should, or that you will be competitive or balanced. Yes, taking an army with only Assault Marines, Land Raiders, and LC-Termies would be kinda silly (unless you're BA), but that's analogous to what you're actually doing. You're choosing certain entries from the completed list and complaining that they don't make an army.

 

Yes, SM players would complain if they were facing the same restrictions but the GK aren't supposed to be a fighting force that shows up on every battlefield across the galaxy and fights every foe. They're supposed to show their pointy helmets only when the Deamonic incursion warrants such a use of force because they are so few, so special, and so powerful. They are the most elite, not because they can take anyone that comes their way, but because they're so specialized. They're meant to fight Deamons.

 

That said, they do need a rewrite, but honestly, I hope they don't get ALL the options allowed to SM... (Especially since DA aren't even allowed the same options)

 

Also, I don't think you've fully absorbed the new IG codex. I think they're cheaper than you make them sound. (unless you're talking about the Stormies from the DH list, in which case, I agree)

 

Daemons used to consist of only a few unit entries in C:CSM, but they got fleshed out to a whole army. In the CSM dex, they didn't even have a special character!

With the SMs, i was using the 'what if' example, imagine if the codex consisted only of those unit types, and all other choices in the army were either Inquisitors or overpriced (considering their IG counterparts have AP3 lasguns) ISTs.

 

I hope they keep their unique playstyle, too. I just want some more unit choices in the army. The Tyranid codex did a great job with all the new units they included (even though some of them are utterly horrible *cough pyrovore cough*), so surely GW can concoct some fluffy units for the Grey Knights.

 

Also, people forget that Grey Knights don't often work alongside other armies. Also, Space Marines are a strikeforce army, too. They just deploy in more numbers that the Grey Knights, because GKs can do the same task with less marines.

[chaplain belisarius]

in my opinion...a fluffy but fun and competitive themed army is the only army worth collecting! (its as much about what you cannot take as what you can..)

[RexTalon]

I think I've become bored with my own question.

 

in my opinion...a fluffy but fun and competitive themed army is the only army worth collecting!

 

I agree completely about the fluff, but I don't really care if my army is competitive. In fact there are two words that the 40k community uses WWWAAAYYY too much... Competitive and viable.

[number6]

In fact there are two words that the 40k community uses WWWAAAYYY too much... Competitive and viable.

Different strokes for different folks, Rex. ;)

[RexTalon]

Yea, I know. I'm an "Egg First" in a "Chicken First" pond.

[greatcrusade08]

Yea, I know. I'm an "Egg First" in a "Chicken First" pond.

 

to mix metaphors the two arent mutually exclusive.. in this case you cant have one without the other..

 

My own personal experience tells me that to collect an army and keep bulding on it requires a theme, otherwise i quickly lose interest.. what keeps me 'playing' with the army is the challenge of making it as competative as possible.. sure i can get the odd friendly pick up game but thats not what i play for.

 

I grew up playing chess (i was captain of the school team at about the time i discovered 40k), i even played in local chess torunaments, had a decent rating for my age too.. and the one aspect of chess i brought with me to 40k was in order to get better you had to constantly test yourself, by playing better players. OR if your playing against sub par opposition try playing without the queen..

 

So whilst i LOVE colecting a themed army my real passion is the challenge.. and im not talking meta gaming, im talking taking my themed list and trying to beat the metagame.. its a whole different basket of kittens. (in chess terms im trying to win at tournaments by not using my queen)

Its probably not even possible, yes i have gained reknown with my scouts, but will i ever be unbeatable (as much as anyone can be).. probably not, and part of me hopes not becuase then id have nothing to work towards.

 

Every model i collect and paint is part of a story, every game i play is a learning experience, i am constantly evolving my army lists so no two games are ever the same.

 

As number6 said different strokes for different folks..

Its all good

[melvinmcsnatch]

It just sucks that Sisters are just a couple fixes away from being a strong, standalone army.

 

Sister Terminators? A second heavy support vehicle? +1 Immolator front armor or 10 model capacity? Any one thing would make this a... dare I say it... viable force. They have their own unique play style that was never developed fully. Why Games Workshop? Why have you forsaken me?

 

I've been reading the Horus Heresy series and although I'm only starting the second book, I thoroughly understand why the Imperium needs the Sisters of Battle, be them directly Inquisition or not. They're much different characters than Space Marines or Imperial Guard. More elite than IG, but just human, unlike SM. And more faithful than the whole lot of 'em -- their true strength.

 

I'm appalled as most of you probably are with the playstyle of all of the Inquisition forces shoved in with the Sisters. Penitent Engine? Expensive pieces of rubble after you take a worthless Priest. Arco-flags are like the "Suicide Squad" from Monty Python. They might as well stab themselves to death on a d6 roll of 1+. Repentia? I've lost a squad of Repentia to Kroots. KROOTS! And if I'm taking an Inquisitor Lord (which I don't), he's from the DH codex, just so I can take the Mystic. Lame.

 

I hope the rumors about a redo are true for both of our Inquisition codices. I know many of my Grey Knight brothers are hoping they will shed a lot of their army's dead weight. I'm not thrilled about a proposed C:Inquisition. I like Grey Knights, but I want an improved Sororitas, not more jamming together of bits and pieces while our armies lose their character.

[Oiad]

As some have said, if there are any complaints I feel the problem lies purely in the change to 5th Edition and the popular styles of play that go with it. Styles that GKs struggle to adapt to due a lack of a recent update. As long as the job is done well you'll see the majority of complaints about the GKs disappear out the window when a new book arrives, allowing GK players to play more effectively to the 5th Edition's strengths.

 

Until then I'll continue to love the challenge that playing pure GK provides.

[RexTalon]

Any one thing would make this a... dare I say it... viable force.

You spelled that wrong. It's supposed to be spelled "thesaurus".

 

:D

[Valerian]

It just sucks that Sisters are just a couple fixes away from being a strong, standalone army.

 

True, but what does this have to do with playing a Pure Grey Knights force (the subject of this thread)?

 

Sister Terminators?

 

Don't make me come across the internetz and beat you....

[melvinmcsnatch]

The thread title is non-specific, and "pure forces" concerns both Sisters and Grey Knights. I suppose I invaded your little DH discussion here, but I wanted to show a little solidarity here since our "purity" issues are the same.

 

And yeah, you heard me right, SISTER TERMINATORS... or equivalent.

 

And never try to correct my spelling. It's impeccable. Look it up.

[Valerian]

The thread title is non-specific, and "pure forces" concerns both Sisters and Grey Knights. I suppose I invaded your little DH discussion here, but I wanted to show a little solidarity here since our "purity" issues are the same.

 

And yeah, you heard me right, SISTER TERMINATORS... or equivalent

 

The Sisters already rip-off everything else that is/should be Space Marine specific; they don't need to steal Terminators, too. Otherwise, what would be the point of playing them?

 

And never try to correct my spelling. It's impeccable. Look it up.

 

Correct your spelling? Oh, you must be talking about the link in my signature, since I didn't say anything about your spelling. If you are already on top of that then I'll thank you in advance.

 

Oh, and since it looks like you are new here, so welcome aboard.

 

V

[melvinmcsnatch]

As much a rip-off as Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Chaos Space Marines, Grey Knights and any other power armor variant. So I suppose I'm joining the club. We've all got our little differences.

 

I never intend insult, I'm just messing with Rex about the spelling.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Oh thats funny that SoB rip off SM's....lets see:

SM's now have hand flamers in BA

They made the Sanguinor and Astoroth just uber look-alike versions of St.Celestien

We had Blessed weapons, or should i say now Relic blades now.

 

Ive heard some say we take Faith away just so we can be more SM like, as Faith is cheesy, only wining as SM players dont get it aswell.

In the Fluff you understand why SoB have similar weapons, but lack the more heavy weapons like Lascannons, MM, and Missile Launchers, not to mention varies ammo types, cool tanks, yes tanks not transports, and finally have a whole stack of Special Characters and Formations more so than any other army.

Yeah SoB really rip of SM's.

 

I make do with my pure army of SoB, as mentioned earlier if i absolutely have to take an Inquisitor i usually go with a DH one like Rex, but i do own assassins, a WH Inq lord and a Inquisitor that could either be WH or DH depending on the army im fighting as i do like Mystics. And having them run with a LR for extra armour is nice, as we SoB lack hard hitting long range AV14 killing efficientcy.

But for themed armies my whole army is themed, to the conversions, to the Penitant Engines (they have more right to be in my army than Inquisitors) as they are from the Ecclesiarchy, as are Priests. Hey i play for fum, themes, stories but we all play to win too.

[Oiad]

But surely Blessed Weapons were just nicked from GK NFW's. :P

 

Didn't the lack of weapon choices for the Sisters come from being under the theme of cleansing weaponry? I'd possibly like to see them get more unique weapons. I think you're on to something Sister Rosette, if they did release something sisters-only it would only be a matter of time before SM chapters pinch those too. :P

[RexTalon]

Oh thats funny that SoB rip off SM's....lets see:

SM's now have hand flamers in BA

They made the Sanguinor and Astoroth just uber look-alike versions of St.Celestien

We had Blessed weapons, or should i say now Relic blades now.

 

Ive heard some say we take Faith away just so we can be more SM like, as Faith is cheesy, only wining as SM players dont get it aswell.

In the Fluff you understand why SoB have similar weapons, but lack the more heavy weapons like Lascannons, MM, and Missile Launchers, not to mention varies ammo types, cool tanks, yes tanks not transports, and finally have a whole stack of Special Characters and Formations more so than any other army.

Yeah SoB really rip of SM's.

 

I make do with my pure army of SoB, as mentioned earlier if i absolutely have to take an Inquisitor i usually go with a DH one like Rex, but i do own assassins, a WH Inq lord and a Inquisitor that could either be WH or DH depending on the army im fighting as i do like Mystics. And having them run with a LR for extra armour is nice, as we SoB lack hard hitting long range AV14 killing efficientcy.

But for themed armies my whole army is themed, to the conversions, to the Penitant Engines (they have more right to be in my army than Inquisitors) as they are from the Ecclesiarchy, as are Priests. Hey i play for fum, themes, stories but we all play to win too.

 

Hand flamers - Everyone used to be able to take hand flamers, even orks and eldar back in the RT days.

St. Celestine - Is a look alike to the C'tan if you really want to play that game.

Relic Blades - Asmodai of the Dark Angels had a version of this weapon in the Codex Angels of Death.

 

I believe Sisters have a place. I don't believe that place should be a pure SoB force. They are a significant group of armed individuals who should ONLY serve as a protective arm of the Ecclesiarchy. I think the CWH has made them into something they were never intended to be, and when people paint their baneblade in SoB livery and replace the tank commander model with a sister it makes the Emperor cry. They're glorified PDF. That is all. And that is all my opinion.

 

I remember back before they did their big re-release all the store owners were saying, "Oh, you play IG? Well you're in for a treat. The sisters are coming to lend you a hand and they have sentinels." I was put out that people's first thought was that the IG needed a hand, and that GW felt they needed to be "fleshed out". I really wish they would stick with fluff. People complain that the time line never moves forward, and GW fixes this by allowing SMs to take Stormravens and Land Speeder Storms... :P... I never wanted technology to advance. I just wanted people to be interested in the story again. People will get worked up over the story line, and I think if the sisters had stayed "Allies of the Imperium" they would have been fine. Same with DH. Keep them a very small specialized force that almost NEVER sees table time because that's exactly how they appear in the story. They're really rare.

 

Instead SoB and GK go the way of the plasma gun... So rare that it can be taken in every unit by every army.

[Brovius]

But surely Blessed Weapons were just nicked from GK NFW's. :P

 

Didn't the lack of weapon choices for the Sisters come from being under the theme of cleansing weaponry? I'd possibly like to see them get more unique weapons. I think you're on to something Sister Rosette, if they did release something sisters-only it would only be a matter of time before SM chapters pinch those too. :P

 

Just like the Storm Raven!

SM chapters are so good at stealing other armies' tech, that they pinch it before the original owners even had a chance to use it :/

 

I like how FW released a big ' :) you' in the shape of the Caestus Assault Ram, available to all Space Marines not-Blood Angel in origin, while being vastly superior, for roughly the same points cost.

[Justicar Valius]

Why must you field a mixed force?

[number6]

@RexTalon: Fluff nazi much? ;)

 

Fluff is what it is, and GW has shown time and again that they are willing to modify it drastically if they believe it'll make them money. It's fluid, not static, and they have even explicitly stated that they love seeing projects that vary wildly from "established" fluff. ("Established" is in quotes because you have to define what is or isn't "canon". Some of the older stuff directly conflicts with the newer stuff, for example.)

 

And in the end ... this is a game. If people want to play entire armies of Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle -- and GW believes there is money to be made catering to that desire -- why shouldn't people be allowed to do so? It's not like a 2000 pt 40K "army" is anything more than a tiny skirmishing force in "reality". An entire GK "army" is hardly more than a couple of kill teams. An "army" of Sisters of Battle or Space Marines is barely anything other than a specialized task force.

[Brovius]

RexTalon, you seem to be forgetting that the Space Marines are a strike force, just like the Grey Knights. They don't sit out in drawn-out ground wars like the IG, they drop in, do what needs to be done, and evac. Grey Knights do the same thing. A Space Marine strike force usually only consists of a few squads, and the Grey Knights do the same, only with less men, because man-for-man, they are vastly superior to the other chapters of the Adeptus Astartes.

If you really want to play according to the fluff, Tyranids would be fielding several thousand Termagants for every Space Marine you field.

Don't use the fluff argument, it's pointless because translating the TT rules to directly match the fluff would make playing certain armies nightmarish. It's streamlined for the wargamer's convenience.

 

Every faction is capable of having a full army list, and the chamber militants of the Inquisition certainly deserve one.

[Doomaflatchi]

If you really want to play according to the fluff, Tyranids would be fielding several thousand Termagants for every Space Marine you field.

Not to mention that fielding Space Marine Scouts with sniper rifles would require playing on a board the size of a parking lot. :D