Why are you fielding a pure force?

[RexTalon]

RexTalon, you seem to be forgetting that the Space Marines are a strike force, just like the Grey Knights. They don't sit out in drawn-out ground wars like the IG, they drop in, do what needs to be done, and evac. Grey Knights do the same thing. A Space Marine strike force usually only consists of a few squads, and the Grey Knights do the same, only with less men, because man-for-man, they are vastly superior to the other chapters of the Adeptus Astartes.

If you really want to play according to the fluff, Tyranids would be fielding several thousand Termagants for every Space Marine you field.

Don't use the fluff argument, it's pointless because translating the TT rules to directly match the fluff would make playing certain armies nightmarish. It's streamlined for the wargamer's convenience.

 

Every faction is capable of having a full army list, and the chamber militants of the Inquisition certainly deserve one.

No, the SM are a general strike force employed to combat many enemies, sometimes simultaneously. The GK are a specific strike force employed to attack a specific enemy, which the rules are not complex enough to stratify in the tabletop game. GK are vastly superior... at fighting Deamonic threats including but not limited to actual Deamons. against all other threats they SHOULD be pretty much the same as SM. But then you'd have to have two points values in the book for each entry and the rules would have to be expanded to include variations on weapon and armor effects.

 

I, for one, think it would be AWESOME to play on huge tables with realistic fluff-based rules. I play IG. If I could field a Human for every 5 Termigants while the SM player gets to field one SM for every 20 of my humans, that would be awesome... for me... but not for GW, who's in the business of selling miniatures.

 

Honestly, it's the same thing I've been saying for years, there should be 3 versions of the game. Introductory, Tournament, and Realism.

 

Introductory would include armies 0 to 1500 pts with drawn-down, fast-paced rules.

Tournament for most players armies 1000 to 3000 pts with the rules set we have now. (overlap in pts to account for armies that work on multiple levels)

Realism for people who have WAY too much time and money.

 

Buuuut that's all a discussion for another time and place.

[Gentlemanloser]

The GK are a specific strike force employed to attack a specific enemy, which the rules are not complex enough to stratify in the tabletop game.

 

Chaos is *the* enemy of the Imperium. The Xeno's are a distraction. Chaos is insidious, ever present, and totally destructive. It was responsible for the corruption of the Emperor's finest Son, and the worst War the Imperium has ever faced.

 

It's machinations are ever present, and ongoing. Tzeench has its hands in many threads, and is angling for the Imperiums downfall. Some Xeno's also worship Chaos Gods.

 

The GK are the best of the best the Imperium has to face the multi-faceted attacks Chaos throws against the Imperium. From courrupted PDF to Greater Daemons walking through into the materium, from the Eldar and their warp based Webway.

 

Chaos isn't just a niche foe, it is *the* foe. And the Grey Knights are everywhere to combat it.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Or in the case of Fluff that your average Militant Order can bring over a Legion in size of Sisters compared to a SM army of a 1000. Though im not going to start but but but not all Convents have that many Sisters arguement again.

 

Back on track to the original topic though, i agree if you played for Fluff, then yes your average war with SM's would only be less that a Company, Nidz would out number you 1000 or more to one, GK's would field anywhere from a few squads to Company depending on the threat, IG would field something upto a 1,000,000 soldiers or more, and Sisters would field anywhere from a few squads to a few thousands Sisters.

But the good old GW has got rid of allies now to make everyone buy a army , and then if you want those shiny new miniatures from that new 'X' army then you have to start another army as well.

Sisters of Battle yes were a allied army, but soon got there own codex, and stopped being a ally for anyone, ive collected them and plaed them since they first were released as a army, not allies. Now i have an Apoc army of over 10k points and the biggest anywhere near me for most of my state.

Dont think GW or anyone else would consider scrapping them, or worse dropping them down to allies again, as they have some of the best looking miniatures still, even being outdated as they are atm.

 

Oh and as for not having a Baneblade for my Sisters, well if Yarrick, the Orks, SM's and IG as well as Chaoos are allowed explain why i cant create some back story for Apoc and be allowed, id like to hear it, and when you do i'll just come up with every reason why i am allowed in Apoc games to field it with players permission.

So far ive played it against friends, GW staff who loved it and thought it was a great idea, ive written to GW UK and they thought it was a great idea aswell, and played it at other clubs and never had anyone say NO in such a way to call it crap/bad taste/illegal or anything else, as if im not mitaken its a game and in APOC games as long as your opponent is aware of it, and allows it its ok as long as its legal and follow the rules.

If your real nice i may one day post the story i wrote to explain why they got it for Fluff purposes.

 

C'tan and St.Celestien have nothing in commen, at all. How can you compare a Necon God to the design of her, yeah right, grasping at straws for your arguement now i see. Next your going to say that Chaplains are based the skull Khorne SM's. And finally the Order Militants your right are the armed forces of the Ecclesiarchy, all woman army under the charter that no man shall serve as a force under the Ecclesiarchy again. They have more numbers that nearly the SM's themselves, are more faithful, have near similar weapons and armour, have slightly less anti armour weapons, but lack everything the SM's use in there lightning raids. Lack of tanks is one that comes to mind.

The SoB are not just some allied army for once a month battles as you want, there enough of them in a codex to field a battle, i can count how many times ive lost in all the years still on one hand, and i play nearly every week.

Sure i agree they need to be filled out, expanded and modernised for 5th ed, as they are behind with second rated rules and wargear, troops improvements, and finally SC's.

 

If you get your way Rextalon i guess everyone should be playing SM's, or IG, Nids, and Maybe Orks as they are the biggest sellers atm, wonder why GW does that???? What a boring hobby that would be without choices of armies, uniqueness, chance to convert, and finally only limited options in what you can and cant play. GW already axed one army there not going to do it again.

[RexTalon]

Chaos isn't just a niche foe, it is *the* foe. And the Grey Knights are everywhere to combat it.

Fluff wise, I disagree that they are "the" foe. I think Nids will wipe out the galaxy and that every race would have to turn to combat them if any of them are going to survive. If the Nids ever got hold of a world similar to the Kroot homeworld it would be all over. But I think I see where you were pointing. Chaos currently has more at it's disposal than any other force and the GK ARE specially suited to fight them but you're missing two important points. GK are made to fight DEAMONS, not just generic Chaos. Chaos can be fought by any force in the Imperium, so there is no reason for them to try to fight Chaos on every front. Also, GK are stretched thin. If we went by the fluff you would only ever see a GK army if it was a seriously major Deamon incursion, so really, taking them against any other army other than Deamons isn't playing according to fluff.

 

 

@ Sister ++++ I like the part where you said IG armies would consist of 1M men. I was like, "OMG that would be so awesome..."

Then you were all, "People liked my SoB Baneblade. The GW staff said it was cool!" and I was like, "Well, duh!" Of course they said it was cool. THEY'RE GW STAFF! They're supposed to say it's cool because they're supposed to sell you things like Baneblades, even though you play SoB. Look, I'm not trying to knock your army. I'm sure your army looks awesome, and I'd love to play against it some time. My point about them was just that it doesn't make sense. Baneblades don't make sense in a SM or Chaos Marine army either, so don't go using that logic. Yea, GW supports those too for obvious reasons. Just like they supported the idea of shifting the focus from SoB being a PDF to being an entirely expeditionary force like the SM themselves. Just like they support the idea of entirely GK armies.

 

Can you field one, sure. In fact, you can field one against me. Hell, I'll even let you field Chaos vehicles in your army if you want. Should you? I don't think so, and again, that's all just my opinion.

 

Yes, if I had my way we'd go back to the fluff of version 3.5, but I'm an old man, and old men like "the way things were". I make no apology for that.

 

Seriously though, you're going to eat these words right here... (and not just cause you spelled they're wrong)

GW already axed one army there not going to do it again.

When they finally get rid of the horrid Dark Eldar the universe will be a better place and we can take the game fluff a step in the right direction.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

So your supporting dropping more armies like the they did the squats?, your saying you want to get rid of DE now, whats next want to get rid of Eldar as there to elvish, or necrons theres no personality to them, or even tau....well just becasue there tau?

 

As for baneblades Chaos already have them, IG have them, and yes SM's even had them in ages past. They are called Fellblades. And if your reading the history of them they sometimes are that old that some date back a few thousand years. Just like the Titans. Hey even IG had rhinos at one point. So fluff wise it is possible for anyone to still own a baneblade, ive argued this with others on other threads and boards. Hey if the SoB can earn the use of the Repressor, that only the Arbites strictly use, why not for some reason or another (wont bore anyone with a drawn out story) cant they earn the right to a single baneblade.

I treat 40k as creative game and allow expansions.

 

GW staff just dont say hey thats cool, but buy this too for that reason. They are hobbyists too, just like us, though i swear they bread them in special vatts in some hidden GW laboratory. Seriously though, most players actually like the idea of making super-heavies, heck if orks, IG and chaos get all the fun, whats fun or fair with that.

But anyway id play against your too RexTalon, sorry i just realised i spealt your name wrong last post.

 

I love pure forces ideas and the NO allies rules now, i think we should all play a single army, no allies and go strength for strenght, though just wish they would hurry up and fix all the codex's to 5th ed quickly.

Well thats just my thoughts anyway.

[RexTalon]

just wish they would hurry up and fix all the codex's to 5th ed quickly.

I know, right? Just think of all the excitement a new release of the rules would generate if they released all the new army rule books at the same time! It wouldn't be "Oh god, here comes a new version. I wonder what rule they broke this time." I'd love it if they'd just hurry up and release all the books, or at least let us know the schedule.

[Judanas]

@ Sister ++++ I like the part where you said IG armies would consist of 1M men. I was like, "OMG that would be so awesome..."

Then you were all, "People liked my SoB Baneblade. The GW staff said it was cool!" and I was like, "Well, duh!" Of course they said it was cool. THEY'RE GW STAFF! They're supposed to say it's cool because they're supposed to sell you things like Baneblades, even though you play SoB. Look, I'm not trying to knock your army. I'm sure your army looks awesome, and I'd love to play against it some time. My point about them was just that it doesn't make sense. Baneblades don't make sense in a SM or Chaos Marine army either, so don't go using that logic. Yea, GW supports those too for obvious reasons. Just like they supported the idea of shifting the focus from SoB being a PDF to being an entirely expeditionary force like the SM themselves. Just like they support the idea of entirely GK armies.

 

Can you field one, sure. In fact, you can field one against me. Hell, I'll even let you field Chaos vehicles in your army if you want. Should you? I don't think so, and again, that's all just my opinion.

 

Yes, if I had my way we'd go back to the fluff of version 3.5, but I'm an old man, and old men like "the way things were". I make no apology for that.

 

Except the Sisters are not a PDF. They are the blade of the Ecclesiarcy and the Inquisition. They are the Space Marine Hunters, they are the people who assault chaos planets. They don't just sit around and defend. They lead crusades to bring planets back to the Imperium.

 

They do more than enough to have the right to be a full army of their own. They have held thier own against the Force of multiple marine chapters and the forces of Mars itself, they are an important faction.

 

And Baneblades are not out of place. Every other force has fielded them from marines to guard to chaos. It seems perfectly fine for the Sisters to be able to field a Baneblade or two.

[Gentlemanloser]

GK are made to fight DEAMONS, not just generic Chaos

 

If you go by the implied links from the HH series of the survivors of the Eisenstien being the first Grey Knights, then they were made to combat Chaos and the Immaterium as a whole (As having surivied exposure to the warp, which included the Daemonic forces they faced), of which Daemons were the original residences (before all the Chaos Marines and Traitor Guard etc went to live there).

 

The GKs are ment to face Chaos, in all it's forms. All Dameons are of Chaos, but Chaos isn't just Daemons.

 

As for the Nids, they might kill (and eat) your bodies, but Nids can't ever touch your immortal soul. Unlike the Gods of Chaos.

 

Also, GK are stretched thin. If we went by the fluff you would only ever see a GK army if it was a seriously major Deamon incursion, so really, taking them against any other army other than Deamons isn't playing according to fluff.

 

No. That's unsupported opinion.

 

The GK are the largest Chapter of Space Marines, with only the fractured Black Templars in contention for size. Also, there's a whole bunch of 'canon' reasons in the DH Codex itself why GK would face every race. They are made to be the best to fight whatever machination Chaos throws at the imperium. Even if that's possessed and manipulated mortals. The GK are the best, as none have ever been possessed, and none would be corrupted.

 

Chaos can be fought by any force in the Imperium, so there is no reason for them to try to fight Chaos on every front.

 

And any other force has the potential to be courrupted in kind by the battle.

 

When you don't want to gamble on that sort of outcome, you use the uncourruptable Grey Knights.

 

It's like saying a rock could be used as a hammer to hammer in a nail. Sure. But it would never be as good as using the right tool for the job, the hammer itself.

[Gentlemanloser]

Also, if you want to go by 'realistic' fluff, then any IG or Space Marine army that meets Daemons in combat and lives are mind wiped. Only the GKs aren't, and the generally populace has no idea what a Daemon is.

 

Yet every Marine Codex has details of Chapters victories over Daemons, with reforged Daemonic Weapons weilded by Chapter Masters.

 

/shrug

[Drahazar]

Its good that they are not getting rid of DE since I have been playing them since they where born. And SOB's had there own dex and where a seperate army back in Second so them being played as a pure force is not off base or wrong. And yes other Imperial forces can fight chaos as well but GK go out of there way and look into every dark corner for Chaos and Deamons they do not sit back in there chairs and wait for the red dot appear to tell them there is a chaos incursion they don't wait for someone to call the ghostbusters to come and save the day they go looking for them in every corner of the planet and in there dex they dose sometimes on there own in a pure DH force with no INQ and no ST.