What has happened to Russ?

[Fenric]

1, valerian has a point and 2, whilst i was reading Bjorn the fell handeds page it mentioned something about:

"before he died he left his most trusted wolf guard in charge: Bjorn the fell-handed."

It goes something like that. Re read the codex all through and you will come across this quote.

We should start deciding that we want some things and have to face the reality of some things. We want russ to return for the wolftime, but we all klnow this isn't gonna happen.

The legacy he left is truly incredible, so let us honour his life that has been.

 

I only read that once so far but you sure it said before he died? I think it is before he left he let Bjorn in charge and Bjorn was sad about this fact.

[CainTheHunter]

I am pretty sure the Codex does not use words "death" or "died" in respect of Leman Russ - that would be a HUGE oversight on behalf of GW. The term disappearance is used quite often though. But I stand to be corrected here - with an exact quote and page of Codex :D

[Valerian]

The only thing that toubles me a little is:

If these were his final words before death and his retinue he spoke to never returned to the fang, how in the emperor's name did this quote reach the fang???

 

Bulweih,

 

There is no reason to think that the quote ever did make it back to the Fang. It isn't written on a stone, it isn't recited by the Rune Priests, and Bjorn doesn't recount when he wakes up every century or so. It is just in the codices, so we the readers know about it, but the Chapter does not.

 

@Max. This was not what Russ announced before leaving. Go relook at that part in the 5th and 2nd edition codices and you'll see that he just went into a trance with eyes glazed over, gathered his retinue except for Bjorn and left. That's why were he went and what he was up to is such a mystery with several theories. It is also why they later started doing Great Hunts to go find him; if he had just announced to everyone that he was dying and then left there wouldn't be much point in going looking for him (or waiting 7 years to start).

 

Edit: also the quote is always attributed/credited as the last words of Leman Russ, and never "the last words of Leman Russ before his dissapearance."

 

As someone above already pointed out, the quote has never been put into context, so we have to do that ourselves. From the quote itself we know a couple facts, first, he was dying, and second, there were brother Wolves with him. We also know that he promised he would come back, regardless, at the end times; simply being dead isn't going to stop him.

I find it funny that I'm the one that is coming off as an ass when I am the one trying to set the record straight in opposition to a few obstinate, yet underinformed posters.

 

As always, best regards, V

[Bulweih]

Well, I was under the impression that this quote made it in the several SW codices to add some of the dark, hopeless atmosphere 40k plays in and was therefore never put in any context whatsoever.

And as there is no reason to think the Legion knows about it, I don't see any reason to put the quote in a context myself.

 

For another example, in the Battle-missions book(I don't know the english name) there's a quote that says: Here I stand and here I shall die! -and it's said to be a quote from Russ in some major battle also, but I'm not under the impression he died there as a fact.

 

Given the status of the other loyal Primarchs, if Russ is really dead, we're totally fethed :P .

 

As always V your arguments are reasonable, but I'm not on the same page :D . If believing Russ is alive on a quest somewhere or commanding the 13th. is wrong, I don't want to be right.

[Decoy]

I'd wager it went more along the lines of something ... What is the phrase... Rhetoric? Oftentimes, someone will say "I'm dead" in terms of fatigue, or something akin. Likewise, I believe that is what was meant when Russ said that his life's breath was all but spent.

 

It's my firm conviction along those lines that, understanding full well that he was mortal and would inevitably die of old age, Leman Russ signaled that, -as he was at that moment-, his life's breath was all but spent. Thusly, he sought to make himself more; He would travel through the Warp, where time and old age mattered not, and he would continue his service to the Emperor beyond the realm of time and space as the Wolves known it. Essentially, he would cease to "live" because he was no longer of this world. This, in turn, would allow him to return, no matter the status of his "Death", to support the Wolves in their time of need. I think that is why the majority of folk believe he's in the Eye of Terror, alongside the 13th Company.

 

Also, V, yeah, you sound like an arse. Then again, you almost always do. Maybe that means you're talking out of your... Wait! That explains so much! B)

[Valerian]

Given the status of the other loyal Primarchs, if Russ is really dead, we're totally fethed :D .

 

Only if you don't believe that Russ can live up to his promise; if anybody but the Emperor can overcome death, then surely it is Russ.

 

As always V your arguments are reasonable, but I'm not on the same page :rolleyes: . If believing Russ is alive on a quest somewhere or commanding the 13th. is wrong, I don't want to be right.

 

Now that is hilarious; well played sir.

[Valerian]

I'd wager it went more along the lines of something ... What is the phrase... Rhetoric? Oftentimes, someone will say "I'm dead" in terms of fatigue, or something akin. Likewise, I believe that is what was meant when Russ said that his life's breath was all but spent.

 

It's my firm conviction along those lines that, understanding full well that he was mortal and would inevitably die of old age, Leman Russ signaled that, -as he was at that moment-, his life's breath was all but spent. Thusly, he sought to make himself more; He would travel through the Warp, where time and old age mattered not, and he would continue his service to the Emperor beyond the realm of time and space as the Wolves known it. Essentially, he would cease to "live" because he was no longer of this world. This, in turn, would allow him to return, no matter the status of his "Death", to support the Wolves in their time of need. I think that is why the majority of folk believe he's in the Eye of Terror, alongside the 13th Company.

 

Just look at the convoluted mental gymnastics you had to do to explain the infamous quote. Most often the simplest explanation is the correct one. In this case you can either believe that Russ was dying, and he knew it, and he wanted to allay the fears/concerns of his closest friends, companions, and brother warriors. Or you can chose to believe the convoluted mess that you just came up with; it's up to you.

Also, V, yeah, you sound like an arse. Then again, you almost always do. Maybe that means you're talking out of your... Wait! That explains so much! :P

 

I'm not always an ass Decoy; it's just that sometimes the nonsense from you pups brings out the grumpy old wolf in me.

[Decoy]

Just look at the convoluted mental gymnastics you had to do to explain the infamous quote. Most often the simplest explanation is the correct one. In this case you can either believe that Russ was dying, and he knew it, and he wanted to allay the fears/concerns of his closest friends, companions, and brother warriors. Or you can chose to believe the convoluted mess that you just came up with; it's up to you.

 

It's really not convoluted for a fairly astute mind. To think of something solely in the one-dimensional shows a lack of the more critical thinking aspects, leaving out the second and third dimensional lateral thinking that often come with higher intelligence. Let me guess; you think that Jesus meant that his disciples should become cannibals and consume him. It's really not a stretch of the mind at all to make the connection that I did.

 

I'm not always an ass Decoy; it's just that sometimes the nonsense from you pups brings out the grumpy old wolf in me.

 

Eh, I was just throwing around some playful banter, but in regards to tendrils penetrating her roboticon sexual orifices, nonsense to one is fact to another. Wherever opinion rears it's ugly head, one person or another will always declare that their notion is the correct one. In the end, I think it boils down to the notion that neither of us truly knows, and we'll each believe what we wish to.

[CainTheHunter]

To me it is a bit weird to be concerned about nonsense/no-nonsense issues in the context of imaginary universe of 41st millenium full of plastic toy soldiers ;)

[Quillen]

Think about it. Read it all. No matter the laws of life and death I will come back to fight by your side.

 

 

I picture it like Robert. He was wounded, and they stuck him in stasis.

 

Why? Cause it maked more sence as few of them are actually dead. Most are somewhere in Suspension.

 

Lion is in the Rock, Robert in the temple the Ultra marines built for him, One if in the web ways.

 

Even Rogal Dorn could be alive. Some book says his body is in thier space forstress. Of course they also claim they only have his hand. And hands can be lost in combat and you can servive without them.

 

 

I feel he is somewhere in stasis. Like the others. In case they actually decide to add a new element to the game. Like a new Great Crusade.

[Brother Nathan]

well looking at the way all the loyalist primarchs are,

Iron hands primarch was beheaded, but his body disapeared and as he was mostly mechanical there is questions as to if that would be enough to kill him

ultramarines poisoned and in stasis,

imperial fists- found his hand...

blood angels- dead but, comparing current descriptions of how how horus was killed to sanguiniuses death makes big questions appear, plus sanguinator and mephyston so he may be back

raven guard- said to his chapter nevermore then left...

salamanders- prety much same as russ- for the dragontime?

white scars- the khan charged into a webway with a bunch of vetrans...never heard of again. apparently said to his troops they have the choice to stay and live r follw him and die, they followed.

russ well...

Big question is really over why the emperor allowed the herasy as sanguinius forsaw it so he must have too. the 2 missing legions et all make a strange picture but i think that most of them are actually alive but are hiding from something worse than chaos, something that was bad enough to remove the 2 missing primarchs statues but not the one that turned to chaos.

If russ is dead and can come back then there is hope for sanguius too...

[Chodjinn]

The two 'missing' primarchs and there associated chapters were deliberately left out of all known 40k fluff to permit the player to create their own, unique chapter. There is absolutely nothing known about them other than ALL records were deleted.

 

Basically you have Russ, and the Salamanders/White Scars/Raven Guard primarchs that are all in a similar situation - MIA. Which is good, because at least they're not confirmed dead or confirmed vegetables in stasis.

 

 

And the answer to the 'big question' as Nathan put it, why the Emperor 'didn't forsee' the Heresy was because, I believe, he needed it to happen to remove the pending rogue elements of his beloved Imperium, i.e. Horus turning to chaos etc. Oh what a can of worms that turned into, eh?!

[Brother Nathan]

well in original the 2 blanks to be created by the payer was acceptable, but back then russ was no more thank the wolf master. One would assume that there is enough diversity as it is witout that that they could afford to fill it in. Personally i like the whole they were persuaded to join the ctans legions thing from the rise of the tau( priah primarchs)

[Valerian]

It's really not convoluted for a fairly astute mind. To think of something solely in the one-dimensional shows a lack of the more critical thinking aspects, leaving out the second and third dimensional lateral thinking that often come with higher intelligence. Let me guess; you think that Jesus meant that his disciples should become cannibals and consume him. It's really not a stretch of the mind at all to make the connection that I did.

 

I'm sure that you are quite intelligent, and that isn't the issue (I'm sure your Mama is proud). Sure your theory is easy to understand, but to get there you follow a much more "complicated" path, with no real justification for it, other than what is essentially your own wishful thinking that your hero not be considered dead and gone in the fluff. My theory certainly is simple, straightforward, and one-dimensional, as you have chosen to criticize it as. I am more than capable of coming up with a more complex answer to the question, but see no need to.

 

 

I'm not always an ass Decoy; it's just that sometimes the nonsense from you pups brings out the grumpy old wolf in me.

 

Eh, I was just throwing around some playful banter, but in regards to tendrils penetrating her roboticon sexual orifices, nonsense to one is fact to another. Wherever opinion rears it's ugly head, one person or another will always declare that their notion is the correct one. In the end, I think it boils down to the notion that neither of us truly knows, and we'll each believe what we wish to.

That's true; and as the other fellow points out, it is a little silly to talk nonsense about made up stuff anyway. Sometimes take this stuff too seriously.

[Wildfire]

Given the mountains of mention GW gives to Russ being off on a walkabout, and that quote being the single mention of his death, I've always dismissed it as oversight on GW's part.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So the theorys we have on where's Russ? are:

A)He's dead.

B)He is running about either naked or in nothing but a pelt,(sure the Slanneshhi guys/gals/things may love the veiw, but everyone else? we know why they are so desperate to escape the eye) and he is either questing for some "tree of life" or something to cure the emperor, or is trying to fing Lion El' johnson, who may well also enjoy the veiw if russ finds him and he wakes up.

C)A theory me and a friend came up with, Russ, Vulkan and Corax have opened an animal sanctury somewhere -_- okay so it's a crack/joke theory.

D)The mega Wulfen thing.

E)I am sure someone once said Russ had been captured and was kept Prisoner by Magnus The Red.

So what could it be? I'd say the "last words" can be interpretated for pretty much any thing.

[Timberhawk]

After reading the quote in the codex I'd have to agree with Valerian. Not only does Russ himself state he's about dead but the quote is labeled as his last words. That said, if he died in the Warp then who knows what could happen. Isn't the warp a place that is more of thought and imagination than reality anyway?

 

Admittedly, I'm new to a lot of the fluff, but that is how the warp seems to be described. Just read some wiki on the warp. It seems to me that if he did die there that he might have a strong presence, being a primarch and all. Now the wiki said something about strong presences or concepts or beliefs (some such) becoming denizens of the warp and with enough support/belief actually gaining the ability to interact with the material world. So, if he died there then his final words about coming when his children call out to him at their darkest time might make sense.

 

That's just my crazy take on it.

[jmurph]

Yeah, it's kept vague on purpose with conflicting info so people can have different theories. Just like most 40k fluff. Trying to be insistent that "this is the way it is" is kind of unfounded when GW seem to lean the other way :lol:

 

Russ, Dorn, etc. all seem to be patterned after Arthurian legend, particularly the promise of the returning king.

 

No way Russ was captured by Magnus, though. He beat the hell out of the Cyclops to the point that Magnus had to beg Tzeentch for intervention. And all Tzeentch did was steal their sould and suck 'em into the warp. And apparently made the 13th into super wolf monsters that didn't give up :mellow:

[Valerian]

Given the mountains of mention GW gives to Russ being off on a walkabout, and that quote being the single mention of his death, I've always dismissed it as oversight on GW's part.

 

Wildfire,

 

I can see where you are coming from, but the two things aren't mutually exclusive, so I see no need to dismiss the quote. I, too, believe that Russ and his retinue "went on a walkabout" (good one, that), to complete some unknown mission. There are tons of theories and speculation about what they were up to, with several of them being provided right there in the codex.

 

Going on this mission, however, does not in any way conflict with him eventually dying. We don't know when, or how, or under what circumstances, but we have a single quote that has been included in every version of our codex that leads me, at least, to believe that it happened. We do know that Russ hasn't returned after having been absent for nearly 10 mellenia, and his retinue didn't make it back to explain, or share the Saga of Russ's Passing.

 

V

[archangel23]

Here's an optimistic point of view, he set out for the Eye of Terror Right? So it stands to reason that if the Lost 13th Company has come forth after 10k years and Chaos Marines have been going in an out for the last 10k years, what's to say he isen't in the EoT still alive and well? I remember the fluff from second edition as well.

 

In any event, its the same with 'El Johnson, Khun and Vulkan. Its just a way GW keeps us all wanting more. Just like a stage show, leave them wanting more.

 

IMHO, he still lives.

[Valerian]

Here's an optimistic point of view, he set out for the Eye of Terror Right?

 

Actually, we don't know that. Where he went and what he went to do is a mystery. Him heading to the Eye of Terror is just one of several theories, so we can't even say for sure that he went to the one place in the galaxy with the major time/space issues.

 

In any event, its the same with 'El Johnson, Khun and Vulkan. Its just a way GW keeps us all wanting more. Just like a stage show, leave them wanting more.

 

That's true. There are a lot of things in the background material that are meant to be mysteries. Certainly they'll never reveal anything about the two missing founding Legions, etc., etc. For this particular topic, however, there at least is some pretty strong evidence, e.g. the "last words of the Primarch Leman Russ" quote.

 

You are, of course, welcome to believe that he still lives; many obviously like to think that based on the length and content of this thread. At this point I believe the Original Poster who asked the question will just have to take what we have all said here and make up his own mind.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Jonny]

I do agree with Valerian that the current evidence does indicate more towards Leman's death than him being alive, even though I don't agree with "last words of" being strong evidence as I've those words used to describe someone’s last words before they went missing for even a week without any explanation attached. However while I agree with Valerian on the direction of the evidence I also believe the Wolf Lord Bulveye (though it might of been his Wolf Priest) in the book "Wolf's Honour" that he will meet Russ again before he dies. So whether or not Russ is dead doesn't matter as he will be back to fulfil his oath ^_^

 

- Jonny

[Zynk Kaladin]

Russ is in a state of superposition, neither dead nor alive but both. Get it right, ladies.

[AcidBurn]

Brothers! *smashes tankard of ale down on table* i have been following this thread for a while now.

and i cant believe there are space wolf players out there that believe that our great and noble leader Leman Russ is dead!

how dare you call your selves a Son of Russ and believe this blasphemy! *gets up and stands on table* Magnus the Red has clearly corrupted your minds with his foul chaos powers! Russ WILL return to lead us into battle once again! he WILL return for the final battle, for the Wolftime!

 

*raises frost axe in the air*

 

FOR THE WOLFTIME BROTHERS!!!!

 

by the way ive had a few ales myself so i mean on offence *burp*

[Tsuro]

I choose to believe that the quote is accurate, that Russ states it whilst dying, and that he hasn't said it yet.

 

Everything in 40k happens in the far, far future; why can't this passage be something from slightly further into that future? No context is ever given for it.

 

In my mind Russ returns from the warp, possibly during/after a great chaos invasion or whatever, already mortally wounded. He briefly meets with the top dogs, then shoots the breeze with Bjorn one last time before uttering his final words and 'passing' away.