Need tactical help vs eldar

[Frostwolf]

Two things before I start. First, not sure if this should be in the army list sub-forum but I figured this is more tactical than list..ical.

Second, I can be a bit long winded so here's the tl;dr: Want advice vs eldar using the models I own.

 

 

And so I lost another game to the eldar tonight. For some reason, I just can't find a way to beat them.

 

I play this friend of mine every so often and as you've probably guessed it, he plays eldar. He's a fairly recent player but he's learned the game very fast and is a very competitive player. Sadly, I must come to admit that he plays his army much better than I play mine. I therefore humbly present myself before your assembly, my brothers, asking for advice.

 

Sadly, I come for advice against some armies that have been done to death. The Mechdar and the biker armies. I have read a few threads of advice against eldar and I think I got what is most effective against the mechdar. Long Fangs all the way. The problem is, I already know that but I only have one squad of those. I'll get more for sure but until I do, I want to know how to use what I already have best.

 

I'll give a rundown of what he has and how he plays but it's pretty much a cookie cutter case. He does the mechdar with serpents with full units of aspect warriors and a farseer. Holding the troops in as long as possible while taking pot shots at single targets while placing his tanks so they give each other as much cover as possible to optimize his use of fortune. End game rush to contest or capture objectives for those games or very defensive and opportunistic moves if kill points are the game, always trying to get cover saves with the serpents all along.

The biker list is pretty much the same thing but it also has some fire prisms. The bikes move around to provide cover saves to the prisms by forcing to shoot through a unit. The prisms blasts away at anything in range and the bikes will harass as much as possible while keeping their cover positions. Obviously, if it is at all possible, the bikes will try to give each other cover saves as well.

 

On my part, I've been using troop heavy lists for a little while now. I try to have 3 units of hunters at 1000pts and 4 at 1500pts. Not necessarily full squads but I feel more comfortable having a good number of scoring units. I tend to have the usual WGPL in TDA including one with cyclone launcher in the long fangs when possible. I always have a rune priest, even against eldar as the nullify on a 4+ is too useful to pass up.

 

Here's a general idea of what I have access to.

I have a good selection of HQs so there is much freedom there.

Elites: 2 dreads, 20 terminators, scouts (6 w/CCW, 6 snipers), iron priest, lone wolf (usually TDA w/ TH+SS)

Troops: 40 grey hunters

HS: land raider, predator, long fangs, vindicator

Dedicated transports: 2 rhinos, 1 DP

 

From my readings, I understand that from my heavy support choices, the long fangs are a must and the predator destructor can be effective. The others are overkill of too vulnerable to lances (all too true :D ) . The grey hunters are always awesome at their job and have proven to be tough and reliable units. I play them with units having plasma guns holding the rear and units with melta guns moving up front. WGPL in TDA usually have a storm bolter and a CCW upgrade (chain fists or wolf claws). They've worked out pretty well so far but I know I should be putting combi-weapons in there. I will...

I haven't used the scouts in a long while but I know they would be very hard to use against him. He made a habit of hugging the board edges with his prisms , making it impossible to get shots from the back or to move in from his side. Using melta bombs would be the solution but he's almost always on the move, requiring 6s to hit him. Add over that the spirit stones and whatnot and you have some very hard to kill tanks. Dreads I haven't used in a while either. I'm not sure they would be of much use... unless I DP one?

 

So you have the situation. If you have any thoughts on how I can better use what I have, please help me out. I will not be made the fool by pointy eared ballerinas. :P

 

I await your council.

[Niiai]

Those pesky eldars! You need to bring theyre mobilty down and fast.

 

Pop his transports and everything will be OK.

 

Also, getting your bum on an objective and staying there usualy is bad news for the eldar. Espesialy of it is in cover and you have a chainfist in the bunch. :-)

[Karack Blackstone]

Rune priests can negate his Psy powers.

 

I'd take a Dread or two, some Termies and at least one pack of Scouts. Your CC ones in reserve to ruin his backfield, maybe the Snipers deployed via Scout/infiltrate special rule.

 

Core of Grey Hunters is never wrong.

 

FA is mostly choice, Skyclaws might work led by a WP w/ JP since you're going to go hurt him. Not always effective depending on what speed bump you come across.

 

HS Should be likely some LF's, and/or a Pred or two. The Vindi I don't have one of, but it could be useful if you know what you're doing.

 

Just be sure to take what you need and enough of them to get things done. Lacking HS later on is a real problem if they're the biggest targets this turn.

[rodgambit]

1500

 

Rune Priest (100)

- LL and TW

 

2 Ven Dreads (185 each)

- 2 TL Auto Cannons

 

Wolf Scouts (110)

-Meltagun

-Meltabombs

 

Long Fangs (140)

- 5 x ML

 

Predator Tank (125)

- Las Sponsons

- Dozer Blade

 

Grey Hunters x 2 (220 each)

-MotW

-MG x 2

-Totem

-Rhino with dozer blade

 

Grey Hunters (215)

-Same as above but with Drop Pod

 

Long Fangs with Rune Priest, Auto Cannon Dreads, Predator should help you compete against him in a long range shooting contest. Drop Pod unit also comes in turn 1 with double meltas to pop transports. Other 2 troops rush forward to support the drop pod unit or keep one back on an objective and rush the other forward. Scouts with OBEL to pop any transports hugging the board edges.

 

Hopefully that helps.

[Logan230]

I like using 2 Tri-las Predators in my lists. they normally can do the job of screwing with those tanks. Missile long fangs and 2 Annihilators are a good base of fire in my area. I personally dont put much stock in autocannon/ las sponson preds outside of 1k.

[LoneSniperSG]

1500

 

Rune Priest (100)

- LL and TW

 

2 Ven Dreads (185 each)

- 2 TL Auto Cannons

 

Wolf Scouts (110)

-Meltagun

-Meltabombs

 

Long Fangs (140)

- 5 x ML

 

Predator Tank (125)

- Las Sponsons

- Dozer Blade

 

Grey Hunters x 2 (220 each)

-MotW

-MG x 2

-Totem

-Rhino with dozer blade

 

Grey Hunters (215)

-Same as above but with Drop Pod

 

Long Fangs with Rune Priest, Auto Cannon Dreads, Predator should help you compete against him in a long range shooting contest. Drop Pod unit also comes in turn 1 with double meltas to pop transports. Other 2 troops rush forward to support the drop pod unit or keep one back on an objective and rush the other forward. Scouts with OBEL to pop any transports hugging the board edges.

 

Hopefully that helps.

 

If it's Mechdar, he's probably got his transports loaded up with Holo-fields. How about some advice on getting through that?

[Kanis]

As a former Eldar player, there's no real easy way to get through or around the Energy/Holo-fields on those tanks; Wave Serpents fields are useless in combat attacks like Melta-bombs, however, or shots from the rear. Dropping in and trying to melta the serpents won't do as well as thought, as the fields negate any additional strength or extra dice from shots or melta-type things, so don't expect instant-pop like normal tanks.

 

The Holo-field has no weakness, only that you need lucky dice results to circumvent it. I'd day a lot of shots over high powered ones, so the autocannons would be good, basically the more you hit the shield the more you are likely to get a result, but don't shoot at them if you don't have to, that's what Eldar players usually count on, is players wasting anti-tank on a tank that won't easily fall. Focus fire, pick one tank and break it, then move on to another target.

 

Make sure those bikes are covering at least 50% of your field of view of that tank, or he can't claim a cover save. Secondly, try and get your Rune Priest close to the Farseer to try and negate those pesky buff powers, and that will really help cut down on their survivability. Try and keep your own units in your Rhino's, our of harms way as long as you are able, with smoke launchers first turn, then obscuring the others with each other/terrain if you can.

 

I hope these were helpful to you brother, best of luck against your xeno foe. My two cents.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I like using 2 Tri-las Predators in my lists. they normally can do the job of screwing with those tanks. Missile long fangs and 2 Annihilators are a good base of fire in my area. I personally dont put much stock in autocannon/ las sponson preds outside of 1k.

 

As a BT player, I am pro 3-las Pred. We get ours with Smoke and Extra armour for 150 points. I'm not sure if I'd pay 180 for the SW version.

I'll bring the numbers for an AC and a tl LC versus AV 12.

I think the gap is small.

 

EDIT:

Auto cannon versus AV 10.

4/6 x 3/6 x 2/6 = 24/216. 100/216 x 24 = 11.1%. 2 shots per volley = 22.2% chance of DESTROYING AV 10.

 

Auto cannon versus AV 11.

4/6 x 2/6 x 2/6 = 16/216. 100/216 x 16 = 7.4%. 2 shots per volley = 14.8% chance of DESTROYING AV 11.

 

Auto cannon versus AV 12.

4/6 x 1/6 x 2/6 = 8/216. 100/216 x 8 = 3.7%. 2 shots per volley = 7.4% chance of DESTROYING AV 12.

 

Missile launcher versus AV 10.

4/6 x 4/6 x2/6 = 32/216. 100/216 x 32 = 14.8% chance of DESTROYING AV 10.

 

ML v AV 11.

4/6 x 3/6 x 2/6 = 24/216. 100/216 x 24 = 11.1% chance of DESTROYING AV 11.

 

ML v AV 12.

4/6 x 2/6 x 2/6 = 7.4%

 

ML v AV 13.

4/6 x 1/6 x 2/6 = 3.7%

 

 

Laser canon------------18,52---14,81---11,11---7,41---3,70

Twin-linked LC---------24,69---19,75---14,81---9,88---4,94

 

The LC drops from 11.11 ->7.4%

The tlLC drops from 14.81 -> 9.88%

 

You paid some 50 points to go from 7.4 ->9.88% in buying the tlLC over the AC. Not worth it against Eldar.

50 points to go from 7.4->14.81% against AV 12 is doubling the guns output, that is better value :pirate:

[TherosSWG]

Why you dont try a drop pod army with land speeders with multimeltas? If you drop a pod behind the serpents and shoot with meltaguns you have many chances to get them down and a mecheldar without vehicles are nothing. Get your speeders in cover till eldar player expose the serpents for attack then get them from behind. Keep a good scout squad flanking and your enemy have something to think about in the whole game.

 

Predators are too expensive and if they move they lost a lot of firepower... the eldar player has a lot of mobility and could negate your line of sight.

 

Try something like this:

 

2 runepriest with the power of dangerous zone for gravitatory vehicles and living lightnings

 

grey hunters with MotW, power weapon and 2 meltaguns in pods

 

2 or 3 speeders in different squads with multimeltas and if you have spare points with flamers

 

2 long fangs, leader+4 missile launchers (1 runepriest here with lightnings and dangerous zone)

 

Dont use rhinos coz eldar always will move more than you, just wait for him and counterattack.

 

The farseer will always win the psychic assalt coz jewels but at least you will put the way difficult.

 

Hope these ideas help you. Excuse me my english if is not enough good but is not my main languague and im not used to know the english names from codexes for skills, equip, rules or powers.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

 

Predators are of value ~ especially if the rest of your guys are Meched up. Too many AVs for your foe to deal with at once.

It just so happens that the Predators superior LCs over the Long Fang MLs are neutered by being reduced to s8

LFs also cannot move and shoot ;)

 

The problem with Drop Pods is Drop Pod Assault. As soon as you show your foe what your army is, he'll choose to go second and will keep everthing in reserve even if he gets 1st turn.

Eldar are probably the best army at coming in from reserve, too, what with having such super-speedy Vehicles.

The army drops and then becomes the equivalent of a Foot army, stuck somewhere. The Eldar fly around as per usual.

MELTA weapons do not get 2d6 for Penetration against the Holofields (if I am calling them the right thing). They do get the +1 damage roll bonus from being ap1 though.

 

Rhinos and Razorbacks are the one thing stopping the SW being left totally behind and stops them from being tank-shocked and shot up by Eldar-low-ap-weaponry.

 

*Your English is just fine B)

[rodgambit]

You could always take away one grey hunter from the pod squad, drop to 1 meltagun and add the Rune Priest to that unit. You don't have to drop on top of the enemy but in a way to create a 24 inch anti-psychic bubble.

 

The scouts are the only thing he has to negate the holo fields with a rear melta shot or melta bombs, however, if he's a smart eldar player he will always be moving his vehicles so your only assaulting on 4's or 6's.

 

The list is is BS 5 auto cannons, living lightning, predator, ML long fangs all designed to go after his serpents since anything over str 8 won't matter.

 

If you ever proxy items, try out your vindicator as a whirlwind and run it behind a dread to gain a 4+ cover. My eldar buddy hates my whirlwind because once he exposes his troops they get blasted off the board.

[Frostwolf]

Thank you all for your input.

 

My main worry in all this has always been taking out his tanks. I have found them to be pretty much impossible to kill due to his use of intervening models and using fortune for a reroll on the gained cover save. My long fangs usually end up seeing only one tank up front while all the others line up behind it. The ones behind are hidden and the one in front gains a cover save for being a fast skimmer that moved flat-out. In the end, just as Kanis exposed, it really comes down to pure luck and maybe getting a wolf priest (prefered enemy: tanks) with a chain fist in there. I'm amazed that a dedicated transport would require that much firepower to even put a scratch in the paint.

Negating the psychic powers kinda comes into this as well but at least the odds are much better. It's just that you need to make that roll when it really counts.

 

I have found new possibilities to optimize my chances of taking out the tanks although I am still missing some of what seems to be required. :rolleyes:

I guess that I should try to get 2 boxes of devastators as soon as possible... ;)

I had not even given a thought to whirlwinds in years but this makes a lot of sense. I could indeed proxy my vindi for one of those. I'll definitly have to give that a try and it might be sitting comfortably behind one of those twin twin-linked autocannon dreads.

 

About the scouts, I had given them much thought but I know he can easily keep his distance so that no matter what table edge they come in from, he'll be over 18" away or positioned in a way that forces the scouts to come in in the open. They might get to take a shot but they won't survive the next turn.

As for the drop pod assault, I agree with Marshall Wilhelm on this. The pods are wasted against these highly mobile lists. I'd rather take no transports at all and fit more bodies in, which is what I've been experimenting with lately.

 

@TherosSWG: Don't your english is perfectly understandable. It's not my first language either. ;)

The speeders are an interesting idea but the multi meltas are wasted on the serpents because of the energy fields. A squadron of those missile launcher variants could do some damage though as they get more shots. The meltas do get a bonus for being AP1 and at a much cheaper price... I'll have to give this more thought.

 

Any way I approach this I have to buy stuff which goes against the original idea of this thread. That being said, it may literally be a matter of missing the right tools for the job and I can accept that. Better start fillin' up the mattress again 'cause daddy's gotta go shoppin'.

[Wildfire]

I would actually recommend taking lots of troops and minimizing the vehicles. Mechdar have lots of S6-8 weapons and mobility, and can get side armor to pop SM vehicles fairly easily. Run for the center of the board early, and keep together so that he can't pick off squads without retribution. The problem with mechdar is late game they must take objectives, and with variable turn games this creates a window of opportunity, dice allowing. SW vs. mechdar objective games seem to revolve around that game-ending die roll quite a bit.

 

If he's actually using holofields (available only on Falcons and Prisms), melta (or any AP1) is awesome. It's not so great against Wave Serpents, which negate the bonuses unless you shoot from the rear (not likely outside of podding).

[TherosSWG]

The main idea for drop pods and speeders its to catch up the rear armor. If eldar player go second then you can drop pods over objetives or just covering his reserve line of entrance. A drop pod lists must be configured with a surgery preccision, counting the number of pods and units inside them. If you have to drop one, try to do it close to the rear armor then fire your weapons, you dont need to assault, you will play to counterattack his assaults or just firing your weapons, of course if you can then assault him. Dont let your units without the support of another one close to it coz if you are assaulted by a seer council, banshees or fired by another nasty xenos thing you can help with the other one unit and eldar are vulnerable to the bolter fire.

 

Explorers are just a preasure method, melta bombs and missile launcher or meltagun, just the cheapest unit that can hurt, a "readytodiekilling" unit.

[Quillen]

Pods. Pods doom them. You can some in behind them and get rear armor and pop them. Once down he is going to get hurt.

 

Grey hunter packs with Meltas will own him.

 

Logan with 5 ulti Meltas and a Melta Long fang pack and 2 Rune Priests will kill 2 falcons a turn.

 

3 Melta shots each and a bunch of strength 7 atacks on rear armor.

 

Falcons can but a pain you just h ave to keep slamming him.

 

And a Land Raider can do ak against them. It is still strength 8 tring for a AV of 12. So most will do nothing. Those that do might not do enough.

[Wildfire]

Pods only doom him if he's a complete moron and doesn't place his entire force in reserve.

 

Also, a long fang pack can't split fire if the pack leader fires.

[flyingwarmonkey]

I like rune Priest and an allied grey knight Brother captian with the unlimited hood gets rid of all that fortune and doom crap cause you can use the hood and the Rune Weapon to negate Powers

[Frostwolf]

It is very likely I'll be playing him soon so I'll make sure to post in here to tell how it went. I already have a few ideas and am constantly building lists in my head. I've probably memorized more point costs than actual rules. :rolleyes:

 

I may end up making a post on the army list sub forum to ask for advice. I don't know how it will turn out as I will be pretty strict on using only models I have. I know it's a bit stupid but I try not to proxy. I don't care too much about the weapons on a model as long as I know or tell what it actually is but other than that I make it a point of pride to have the models I use in my list and to use the models I have in my lists.

 

Next game will most likely be tomorrow (more like later today at this hour) and will be against orks. Not too stressed about that one if only for the fact that he's the only ork player I know who's lucky enough on his rolls to have a super shooty warband. I really, really wish I could take down serpents as fast as he does. My eldar friend didn't even understand what was going on.

Anyway, I'll keep posting about my eldar encounters and maybe I'll develop some profound understanding of strategy and probability... or maybe I'll just buy more long fangs and shoot him the :cuss down.

 

Oh and I know he's currently working on a foot slogging list. He's going for a semi high body count with a mix of guardians with platforms and aspect warriors. He's most likely going to have an avatar and the ever present farseer with RoW. I also have a feeling he's cooking up a unit of 10 wraith guards with spiritseer to use as a troop. Should be interesting.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I played the eldar this week. He uses a Mechdar list. No Farseer - just loads of wave serpents and falcons. He had a fire prism this time as well.

The game had 5 objectives ... which favoured him. The game was close. I managed to disable once tank with Tempests Wrath. Blew another up with my bikers and meltabombs and 2 more with meltaguns / my long fangs (who rolled BADLY all night.)

 

Still lost the game though. With the massive maneuverability, he held one objective I never got close to, then (as expected) towards the end of the game grabbed the 2nd objective, then assaulted my GH holding the middle objective. When I had to "pile in" for that combat, it pulled me away from 3" of the objective. Game ended with me holding 1 objective and him holding 2.

 

REALLY hard to make sure he can't grab those objectives. That tactic of "pulling me off the objective" with an assault worked well - and is a little difficult to counter.

 

Roughly I had the following

RP, 8GH, WG rhino (motw,ws,pf,mg,cm)

8GH, WG rhino (motw,ws,pf,mg,cm)

6LF (2lc,3ml)

6LF (5ml)

4bikers (pf) + assault bike (mm) + WP (everyone with mb)

 

Good luck Frostwolf.

[Spacefrisian]

Just come in hordes its the best way to deal with them (i play Eldar myself and i hate going up against horde like lists)