Mystics

[Vor]

Q. Do Inquisitorial Mystics allow “free shots” at

units arriving by Drop Pod?

A. Yes. The shooting is resolved after the Drop

Pod lands and the passengers have disembarked.

Either the Drop Pod or the disembarked unit may

be the targeted, but not both.

Am I safe to assume this also applies for Tyranid Mysetic Spaws and all that arrive via them?

[greatcrusade08]

Q. Do Inquisitorial Mystics allow “free shots” at

units arriving by Drop Pod?

A. Yes. The shooting is resolved after the Drop

Pod lands and the passengers have disembarked.

Either the Drop Pod or the disembarked unit may

be the targeted, but not both.

Am I safe to assume this also applies for Tyranid Mysetic Spaws and all that arrive via them?

 

 

as spores are drop pod equivalent then id say yes

[PhallenFoenix]

I'm sure it does, probably word for word. Mycetic spores are virtually identical in rules to drop pods, so I can't image they wouldn't be.

[Vor]

As I thought. Thanks for that guys. Should prove handy on Saturday.

[the jeske]

as spores are drop pod equivalent then id say yes

o rly and that is why warrior primes can join warriors and our pasive auras work like the rest of the w40k..oh wait it doesnt work like that and if the nid faq tells us anything it is that the nid stuf works in a totally different way.. drop pod is not the same a pod , it has a different name.

 

of course before people jump on me , this also means that mystic proc on both the pod and transported unit.

[Judanas]

as spores are drop pod equivalent then id say yes

o rly and that is why warrior primes can join warriors and our pasive auras work like the rest of the w40k..oh wait it doesnt work like that and if the nid faq tells us anything it is that the nid stuf works in a totally different way.. drop pod is not the same a pod , it has a different name.

 

of course before people jump on me , this also means that mystic proc on both the pod and transported unit.

 

Umm...what? That was...painful to read.

[Justicar Valius]

Agree with the jeske, if it was exaclty the same it would allow warrior primes to deploy in it just like a drop pod allows a captain to deploy in it.

[greatcrusade08]

ignore the individual rules like transport capacity.. the FAQ shows that it considers a drop pod to be a deepstriker and that a mystic can shoot at it or the unit inside..

Since in this respect the mycetic spore is identical to the pod then the rule will carry over too.. remembering that the rule was written before the spores were 'invented'

[Aidoneus]

A mycetic spore might operate similarly to a Drop Pod, but it isn't one. When a rule references one unit, it doesn't therefore apply to every similar unit as well.

 

The spore deep strikes, therefore the spore can be targeted by mystics.

 

The squad within the spore does not, itself, deep-strike. It enters play by disembarking, and therefore can not be targeted by mystics.

 

Sad, but true.

[greatcrusade08]

The spore deep strikes, therefore the spore can be targeted by mystics.

Agreed

 

The squad within the spore does not, itself, deep-strike. It enters play by disembarking, and therefore can not be targeted by mystics..

But the same could be said for drop pods could it not?

Yet the FAQ is clear that the passengers CAN be targetted??

[the jeske]

Since in this respect the mycetic spore is identical to the pod then the rule will carry over too

that is not how rules work . you even have identical named gear asked about in FAQ and they work in a different way . Unless the faq says so [for example if it was not a question about drop pods , but about mystics and any form of transports coming from deep strike . because the way it is worded right now it works differently against BA deep strking LR or storms too].

 

 

But the same could be said for drop pods could it not?

Yet the FAQ is clear that the passengers CAN be targetted??

yep. and as said before since when is it that GW has same working gear work the same way. nid shadow of the warp is a passiv aura , checked just like a psychic hood. only some how the hood works on units in transports while the SoW does not. I could make more examples like that , if you want to .

[greatcrusade08]

yep. and as said before since when is it that GW has same working gear work the same way. nid shadow of the warp is a passiv aura , checked just like a psychic hood. only some how the hood works on units in transports while the SoW does not. I could make more examples like that , if you want to .

 

i understand what your trying to say, but these examples are specifically mentioned.. in this case the rule was written ebfore mycetic spores were invented..

what we have is a rule that allows shotting at a deep striking unit.. do mycetic spores deep strike?

 

Answer = yes..

 

its cut and dry to me..

 

the only other question that can be asked is if mystics can fire at a drop pods disembarking unit, then can they fire at a spores disembarking unit?

As we have no ruling on this question, then we have to use past precedent and say that we can (in the essence of fairness until they release an FAQ)

[Aidoneus]

As we have no ruling on this question, then we have to use past precedent and say that we can (in the essence of fairness until they release an FAQ)

Agreed, but you're taking the exception to be the rule. In every single case, bar one, a unit may only be targeted by mystics if it, itself, has deep-struck. Disembarking units ARE NOT hit by mystics. Drop Pods are the one, clearly-delineated, exception. But they are just that: the exception. Until GW comes out and explicitly says that units disembarking from mycetic spores can be targeted by mystics, such cases follow the general rule that disembarking units do not trigger mystics.

 

I'm not saying that's the way the rules should work, just that it's the way the rules do work.

[greatcrusade08]

As we have no ruling on this question, then we have to use past precedent and say that we can (in the essence of fairness until they release an FAQ)

Agreed, but you're taking the exception to be the rule. In every single case, bar one, a unit may only be targeted by mystics if it, itself, has deep-struck. Disembarking units ARE NOT hit by mystics. Drop Pods are the one, clearly-delineated, exception. But they are just that: the exception. Until GW comes out and explicitly says that units disembarking from mycetic spores can be targeted by mystics, such cases follow the general rule that disembarking units do not trigger mystics.

 

I'm not saying that's the way the rules should work, just that it's the way the rules do work.

 

thing is though, how can it be either the exception or the rule when it is but a singular occurance?

What i mean by that is how many other examples of dismebarking from deepstriking units do we have (not including the spores at debate?)

 

Given the very few examples, then this can hardly be said to be an 'exception' surely?

[Vor]

As it turned out the question didn't arise. The near 1000 points of Grey Knights and Inq units I put into my 5k list to protect the bulk of my teams armoured assets in the Apoc game from Deepstrikers got to fire at just one unit of Gargoyles, and even that was an epic fail with just 1 killed :cuss

[chaplainmeliadus]

Since in this respect the mycetic spore is identical to the pod then the rule will carry over too

that is not how rules work . you even have identical named gear asked about in FAQ and they work in a different way . Unless the faq says so [for example if it was not a question about drop pods , but about mystics and any form of transports coming from deep strike . because the way it is worded right now it works differently against BA deep strking LR or storms too].

 

 

But the same could be said for drop pods could it not?

Yet the FAQ is clear that the passengers CAN be targetted??

yep. and as said before since when is it that GW has same working gear work the same way. nid shadow of the warp is a passiv aura , checked just like a psychic hood. only some how the hood works on units in transports while the SoW does not. I could make more examples like that , if you want to .

 

Units may not usually disembark from transports that Deep Strike. Drop pods (and now spores) are exceptions to this rule.

[RexTalon]

MAN, this is fun to read. :P

[Aidoneus]

First off, an exception is always a singular occurrence, that being precisely what differentiates it from a rule.

 

The fact that the vehicle deep-stuck before the models disembark is immaterial. The vehicle deep-strikes, and the unit does not. In point of fact, the units that can take a spore don't even have the Deep Strike special rule, so they can't possibly deep strike.

 

If GW had never released an FAQ about mystics and Drop Pods, they would work exactly as I'm saying spores work. The Pod deep strikes, therefore it can be targeted by mystics. The unit does not deep strike; it merely disembarks, and therefore can not be targeted by mystics. However, in this case GW saw fit to issue an official statement (FAQ) altering the way mystics interact with drop pods and the units therein. For our purposes, it doesn't matter why they changed the mechanic. All that we need to understand is that they made an exception to the usual rules to allow mystics the opportunity to hit squads in Pods.

 

Thus far, GW has issued no such edict regarding Spores. Because no explicit exception to the usual rules has been made, those usual rules are still in effect. Period, end of story.

 

Seriously, it isn't that hard to understand; Mycetic Spores are not Drop Pods, and so any rule specifically regarding Drop Pods has no bearing on Mycetic Spores. That's all there is to it.

[greatcrusade08]

First off, an exception is always a singular occurrence, that being precisely what differentiates it from a rule.

Youve misunderstood my point.. whilst this makes sense i have to put forth that at the time of the FAQ there were no land speeder storms or mycetic spores or storm ravens.. Literally the only vehicle that could deepstrike with a unit aboard was the drop pod..

so this FAQ covered 100% of all these units, therefore it could be considered a carte blanche rule..

whilst i understand the point that spores arent drop pods, GW isnt in the habit of spelling out every unit affected by rules and half the time when new codex units are added after a rules change it leads to this kind of confusion, all we can do is go by past precedent.. which in this case means that units disembarking from Dsing vehicles can be shot at.

 

Thus far, GW has issued no such edict regarding Spores. Because no explicit exception to the usual rules has been made, those usual rules are still in effect. Period, end of story.

Granted this is correct, but how often does GW cross its 'i's and dot its 't's?

I suppose you could call it an argument of RAI and RAW although i hate the term RAI..

 

In the case of fairness if a mystic can shoot at a drop pods units then they should be able to shoot at units from a spore a DSing storm or storm raven.. whilst your argument makes sense there is a big grey area in the application of RAW, because the FAQ could be considered a set precedent

[Brovius]

Exceptions are exceptions.

Shadow in the Warp, for instance, is a weaker version of the Eldar's Runes of Warding (RoW makes all failed Psychic tests a Perils of the Warp, where SitW only forces PotW if the unit rolls double 1 or double 6)

That aside, they are the exact same thing. Yet in the Tyranid FAQ, SitW does NOT affect units in transports, whereas RoW do.

You can't pin the blame on something not existing at the time of writing, the Eldar FAQ was never changed when Shadow in the Warp got nerfed.

 

Just because things are similar, does not mean that they are all treated the same. Ultramarines have almost identical wargear and stats to Space Wolves, but that doesn't mean Ultramarines benefit from Counter Attack and Enhanced Senses.

 

Drop Pods are very different to Mycetic Spores. They fulfill similar roles, but are fundamentally different in many ways. For instance, the Spores can fight in close combat, have wounds, toughness and an armour save. They have a higher transport capacity, but units that purchase a Spore cannot let a Tyranid IC (Tyranid Prime) tag along (I quite liked sporing in a unit of 10 Deathwarriors using the Prime's BS. I guess this ability was far too overpowered for a non-Imperial army to have).

 

Carnifexes are not like tanks, but they do a similar thing. They are fire-magnets and are used to deal with both mechanized and infantry threats. It doesn't mean that Carnifexes can tank-shock, or that vehicles can run in the movement phase. It specifies these things for a reason.

 

Funfact: Mycetic Spores did exist pre-5th edition, they allowed Carnifexes to deepstrike, and gave them a 4+ cover save the turn they landed. There was no other stats for the spore, but remember when the Drop Pod was in a similar position? It was a deepstriker with a gun, and was basically unkillable.

[greatcrusade08]

Again none of this means anything..

 

the FAQ doesnt note it as an exception, sure it says it works for drop pods but it doesnt say only drop pods, in my mind it sets a precedent by allowing mystics to shoot at units disembarking from a deep striking unit.

All this comparisons about what units can go in spores and what limitations blah blah is not relevant..

Only that th spore deep strikes and carries units which disembark on landing.

 

that is what is in discussion here.

 

and whilst i agreed with the logic out forth by the counter argument, as i stated before the FAQ can be seen as a set precedent which means the ruling is not clear..

Its something you would have to clear before the game with your opponent and in the spirit of fairness i cant find a good enough reason not to allow it..

if mystics can shoot at drop pods units why not mycetic spores units..

[Aidoneus]

I definitely get where you're coming from. Logically, it makes sense. However, you have to understand that applying the logic from one rule to another situation is not something it is within the players' power to do. That's something for the rules designers to do. Should they release a statement expanding the Drop Pod/Mystic ruling to cover other deep-striking transports? Absolutely! But have they yet? No. And that's what's important here. The only ruling we have is specifically about Drop Pods. GW did not say "any deep-striking transport," which would have made a universal rule. No, they said "Drop Pods," thus making a very limited rule. It doesn't set precedent for anything other than Drop Pods.

 

Now, if you and your friends want to house-rule an extension of that FAQ to cover Spores, Storms, Ravens, by all means do so. I think it would be a good rule to have. Just realize that, house rules aside, it isn't a rule we do have.

[greatcrusade08]

In a straight up RAW argument youve probably got the answer.. although tbh its one of those things that irks me about the RAW mindset. it allows for double standards.. theres no room for common sense..

 

:)

[Gentlemanloser]

What i mean by that is how many other examples of dismebarking from deepstriking units do we have

 

Units may not usually disembark from transports that Deep Strike. Drop pods (and now spores) are exceptions to this rule.

 

IIRC you can disembark from Deep Striking vehicles (the Storm Raven and Blood Angle Land Raiders come to mind, and maybe the Valk) but you can't Assault from them after doing so.

[the jeske]

In a straight up RAW argument youve probably got the answer.. although tbh its one of those things that irks me about the RAW mindset. it allows for double standards.. theres no room for common sense..

 

:(

 

 

having different cost rhinos with same gear or different working TH/SS is not ?