Chaos Marines at 1000pts

[Supreme Overlord]

Hello fellow converts of Chaos.

 

After a couple of years of no 40k (shocking I know), my friends have got me back into it once again, but this time round I'll be playing for the good (or not so good) ol' Chaos Space Marines.

 

The local monthly tournaments are at 1000pts, and back when I played Orks it was easy enough to have a nice big chunky army even at a smaller points level like this, but Chaos Marine armies arent so big and chunky, even if the individuals are.

 

I have made up several 1000pts lists so I know what I'm getting before I buy stuff, but I'm finding it hard to fit in everything at 1000 points. It seems every time I make a list theres always one or two things missing that I'd like to have in there, but I suppose you'd all be familar with this. Just a few questions, what should I be aiming for in a 1000pt list (as in, what units are definite no-no's etc), and if possible could some of you provide examples of reasonably effective 1000pt lists?

 

Cheers.

 

-Supreme Overlord

[killersquid]

I am a big fan of 1000pt games, as that is great for quicker more decisive games. However, I have not had much of a chance to do so in quite some time.

 

Main things you want to keep in mind are an ability to deal with any threat (Heavy infantry, light infantry, tanks, walkers etc..) and also want to make sure you have very good mobility. Fast armies are always a lot more successful then footslogging ones, however you need to make sure that your mobility have resilience through either very tough units, or a lot of redundancy. For example, always take things in pairs. Don't take ones squad in a rhino, take two.

 

My 1000pt chaos army, focuses on getting right into my opponents faces with a horde of horrible monsters right away, therefore allowing my troops in their rhinos to scoot around capturing objectives. This list worked fairly well in a 1000pt tournament I entered, where I only lost one of the four rounds ( where all I had left was two spawn and five chaos marines, and all he had left was one wounded hive tyrant).

 

The main thing the list has a weakness dealing with, is enemy armour. The only long ranged anti-tank weapon is a psychic power from my one daemon prince, while the metlaguns are too close ranged to be terribly reliable. However, having the spawn S5 and the daemon princes worked well enough.

 

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w/ gift of chaos, bolt of change, wings

Daemon prince of Slaanesh w/wings, lash of submission

 

two squads of 5 marines in rhinos with meltaguns.

 

10 chaos spawn in four squads (2/2/3/3).

 

I am using an expanded version of this list in an 1850pt tournament I plan to enter.

[Supreme Overlord]

Wow thats an interesting list. I've never seen that many chaos spawn, but if you only lost one of those games in the tourney they must be at least somewhat effect en masse haha.

 

In all my lists so far, I've had at least two 10 man CSM squads, and I thought that would be the bare minumum for an effective CSM list at 1000pts, maybe thats why I dont have much points left for the scalpel and sledgehammer units of a Chaos army. Does the two five-man squads work ok in terms of objective taking and survivability?

[Hellios]

Wow thats an interesting list. I've never seen that many chaos spawn, but if you only lost one of those games in the tourney they must be at least somewhat effect en masse haha.

 

In all my lists so far, I've had at least two 10 man CSM squads, and I thought that would be the bare minumum for an effective CSM list at 1000pts, maybe thats why I dont have much points left for the scalpel and sledgehammer units of a Chaos army. Does the two five-man squads work ok in terms of objective taking and survivability?

 

What format do your TO run? is it hard or soft? do they run 1 mission over and over or are missions changed each round? DO they just use the standard 3 missions or do they use custom or expansion missions?

 

However I agree with be ready to face everything... even in my 500pt list I'm ready to take Land Raiders. At 1,000pts you might see 3 if you are lucky... although I would guess you wont... You might see around 100 light infantry or so from the armies like nids, orks and guard... and expect to see up to 7 or so vehicles in mech armies... oh and everything else as well....

 

For this reason Oblits... being one of the besy heavy supports anyway... and... got deathwing? Plasma!... got land raiders? melta!... got ork boyz mob? flamer! get the picture?

 

As for HQs... Princes with wings... MoS and lash... why? DPs kill stuff... and for the chaos codex are a good buy! wings make them faster... and as a previous poster said fast armies have an advantage... they can dictate the battle... Lash carries this on... you can speed yourself up... by moving people into assault range... you can slow them down moving assault units away... shooty units out of LoS... move people so that they will take more damage (terrain, or your shooting).

 

As for Troops... Plague Marines, Khorne Berzerkers and CSMs are all good buys... get them a rhino as well <_<.

[Zhukov]

I played some 1000 points tournements and won them without a single loss. The lists I use in 1000 points are ussually something along the lines of this:

 

-2x Deamon Prince + 2 Obliterators OR 1x Deamon + 4 Obliterators.

-3x small troop choices, mostly or all in rhinos.

 

Troop choices are ussually only Plague Marines. At 1000 points their T5 and Feel no Pain is even more helpfull. (relatively less weapons which can deal well with them). Also they have in small squads still the option for 2x specials.

 

Example list, which I think is about as good as it gets:

 

Deamon Prince with wings, Mark of nurgle and Warptime 175

Deamon Prince with wings, Mark of nurgle and Rot 165

5x Plague Marines; 2x plasma, rhino 180

5x Plague Marines; 2x melta, rhino 170

5x Plague Marines; 2x flamer, rhino 160

1 Obliterator 75

1 Obliterator 75

 

In my experience, this is the general tactic in objective missions (very basic so you got an idea at least):

Obliterators and the Plague marine squad which is least usefull against the enemy stay back. Obliterators give support fire (target transports ussually first) while the Plague squad camps an objective. Many times however the plasma squad is best in this defensive role, as they have some ranged fire so they can still do things while camping. (shooting out of the hatch with 2x plasma)

 

The rest moves forward and kills stuff + claiming objectives ^^ Or, if the enemy is a full assault force, you can just wait and then (counter)assault at the right moments.

 

This list is nowhere perfect, but 1000 points isnt perfect. It gives you good chances though.

 

I hate to say this, while this is the first time I reply here in months of absence but: Spawn suck and lists including them automaticly suck too. That 1 person had some succes on 1 tourney doest make this any different and it feels almost unfair that he talks about it here. Then again, anybody can give his opinion. I would take the advice of 99% of all the chaos players though: stay away from Spawn.

 

Edit:

Hmm I guess I could give some more information about why that list is good I think. Here you go:

 

-3 Troop choices are optimal in 1000 points. It makes you be able to claim enough objectives and gives you more special weapons and rhinos. 2x 10 man squads is an option, but if you lose one squad in some way (either being it tied up in CC or just outright destroyed for example) you only have 1 squad left to claim objectives. If you lose 1 out of 3 squads, you still have 2 left. Very simple of course, but true nonetheless. However you need to compensate in the form of smaller squads. Plague Marines are even in 5 man squads still hard to remove and they can still carry 2 specials weapons and so they are for me a no-brainer. If you dont want to play with Plague Marines, 2x 10 man Marines is your best bet, or 2x 8-10 Berzerkers.

-Deamon princes just are awesome compared to our other choices. They give you more targets and more high toughness. Giving them Mark of Nurgle makes them generally way harder to kill in 1000 points, because there just isnt that much heavy fire. Did I mention they are pretty killy too? Again, a no-brainer.

-Obliterators are invaluable normally already; even more so in 1000 points. They fill up the gaps in your army. They got a tool for everything. Taking something else means you might be unable to counter certain types of armies while Obliterators give you a chance at least.

-Rhinos for even more targets and moblity. On top of that, they can block units or block line of sight etc.

 

All in all you got a 1000 points list which has only tough targets. Yes, read that again. Only tough targets. Your weakest model is a T4(5) model with FnP... This simply means your enemy has problems dealing out enough damage.

 

I hope this helps you.

[Dark Apostle Lorenzo]

Spawn have there uses. Get close turn an enemy comander into one then sit back and charge in or move awayto a better target. One or two and they are targetsMore than that and you can swarm the enemy. fleet and a 12 inch charge range and they get into combat pretty fast.

 

As for my 1000 pt list

 

HQ

Sorceror Familiar Gift of Chaos, Wind of Chaos MB

 

Troops standard CSM

1 at 6 men, Champion Powerfist MB, Melta gunChaos Glory Rhino

1 at 8 men Champions flamer Chaos glory Power weapon MB Rhino Pintlemnt combi bolter

1 at 8 men Champion power weapon plasma pistol MB Chaos glory Plasmagun Rhino

 

Heavy

2 Oblits

 

1000 pts.

 

Over the years I have found 8 man squads to be pretty much the same effectiveness as 10 man and you can still add independent characters to the Rhinos.

 

And the Chaos Glory re rolls come in handy.

The 6 man sits back and holds the objective closest to me and the rest go forth and spread Lorgars blessing.....errr take the other objectives.

[the jeske]

only it is practicly impossible to get the power off.

 

Over the years I have found 8 man squads to be pretty much the same effectiveness as 10 man and you can still add independent characters to the Rhinos.

which years ? those years when we could have 2 specials in an 8 man squads? a single plasma or single melta or even a flamer aint cutting the job it is suppose to do. we dont have vulkan to get twin linked melta and a single one has a too big chance of doing nothing. single plasma doesnt help camper units as it doesnt put enough wounds on meq or teq [not to mention that 2str 7 shots suck against any drop poding walker].

 

 

whats an MB?? ^_^

[Grey Mage]

whats an MB?? ^_^

A Melta-Bomb Im pretty sure.

[Lady_Canoness]

Welcome to the dark side! And Kindly ignore the 'requirement' of two daemon princes with wings... unless you like feeling like a cheese-monkey (and you don't sound like you do ;) ) Sure Daemon Princes are cheap, but if you want to get enjoyment out of a game (and by that I mean enjoyment other than by beating some poor fellow's face in) and earn a reputation for a fun gamer to play against and a good sportsman) You'll see that one daemon prince gives you a nice balance between theme, power, and not being worth your weight in Cheddar.

 

The Chaos Codex is really powerful and is bursting with units that are top-tier and capable of making a very well-rounded force. I would recommend avoiding multiple spammed units of Chaos Marines. Why? A) because identical units have identical strengths and weaknesses, and B ) because its boring. Fortunately, mixed bags are something Chaos Marines have a lot of!

 

Khorne Berzerkers are good at any point level, so a squad of them should be included, as should Oblits as Lorenzo metioned as they can take any opponent and can shoot every turn they are alive.

 

Try something based on the following:

(HQ)Daemon Prince

(Elite)... Terminators? Dread for the sheer fun of it?

(Troops) 1 Squad of Berzerkers and 1 CSM squad for support. + Rhino for the Berzerkers

(Heavy) 2 Oblits

 

This kinda of a starting point already gives you good assault and shooting, plus leaves open some points for whatever you want to add :)

[Argon]

Welcome to the dark side! And Kindly ignore the 'requirement' of two daemon princes with wings... unless you like feeling like a cheese-monkey (and you don't sound like you do :) ) Sure Daemon Princes are cheap, but if you want to get enjoyment out of a game (and by that I mean enjoyment other than by beating some poor fellow's face in) and earn a reputation for a fun gamer to play against and a good sportsman) You'll see that one daemon prince gives you a nice balance between theme, power, and not being worth your weight in Cheddar.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

Yes, two Daemon Princes with wings, Mark of Slannesh, and Lash is our most "cost effective" HQ selection. Yes, combining Lash and Vindicators and/or Oblits will let you kill things with ease.

 

However, it also reeks of cheese and people might hate you for it.

 

 

As people have said before Berzerkers are good. Throw them in a Rhino and claim skulls for Khorne. Thousand Sons are good at killing anything that isn't in Terminator Armor, at the cost of being utter crud in close combat. Plague Marines have Feel No Pain, so take plasma guns and don't worry about Gets Hot!

 

Other than that, I can't give you much advice.

[the jeske]

whats an MB?? :)

A Melta-Bomb Im pretty sure.

 

 

thx . Which also means I have to add that taking a power weapon and a melta bomb instead of a fist is a bad idea for something that doesnt have a much different point cost.

[Mr. Sandbot]

If I'm right, the OP asked for the "no-no"s of building a 1k army list.

Generally, the big ones that come to mind are not to bother with dreads, spawn, and 1k sons (sadly).

Dreads are too much of a liability in 1k points because you don't have enough units to still be completely alright if the dread decides to go crazy and kill someone. Failing that if he is crazy then he's not being very useful. Better to spend your points elsewhere. (Side note: I still field one with a plasma cannon because I love the idea of gambling with them)

Spawn aren't amazing because they don't have a save, are SnP, you don't have control over them and aren't scoring units. Also, better to spend points elsewhere.

1k Sons devour points and their AP 3 bolters become useless when cover is brought into the equation. Yes, it does lower a marine's save to 4+, but that still doesn't justify their price.

 

Oh and another thing about 2x prince with lash:

Undoubtedly one of the strongest combinations our dex can muster up. Go ahead and use it if you want. If anyone cries cheese then tell them to use more transports or any form/deviation of a psychic hood to shut it down. In my honest opinion, don't use it yet, otherwise you might start relying on Lash as a crutch to constantly do your dirty work instead of learning how to live on without it. As a returning chaos player, its best to get a good feel for the army right now then throw in lash sometime later.

 

Now then some generalized things to keep in mind to get the most bang for your buck from the chaos codex at 1k (when you're making a list):

 

General:

-Champions cost a lot. I don't recommend buying them.

 

HQ:

-Princes are amazing for their price, but always get them wings.

-Lords aren't very amazing. Unless you really need to save points, don't bother with him.

-if you're going for a khorne lord, try out dual electric claws, they tend to work more consistently than a daemon weapon

-you should only ever buy a sorcerer instead of a prince if you need him to hide in a squad or if it fits with your fluff. Otherwise the price to make him effective is about the same as the prince with worse stats.

-Give your HQ some means of quick transportation around the place

 

Elites:

-Terminators and Chosen are wonderful ways to bring more special weapons to the field at higher point levels, not so much for 1k

-Chosen are great for an outflank with more special weapons. Once again though, save them for higher point games.

-Terminators make great expensive retinues.

-theres a build for terminators known as a termicide which involves deep striking a minimum strength squad armed with combi-weapons to take out whatever you need dead. They then proceed to die net turn. I don't recommend using it for 1k

-Don't bother with possessed or dreads right now

 

Troops

-always buy rhinos for our troops

-don't buy upgrades for Rhinos to keep things cheap

-Plague marines are really hard to kill when in cover and are excellent troops.

-Khorne berzerkers are best in land raiders so they can disembark and assault. Rhinos are good alternative to stay cheap

-If you get a skull champion, give him a power fist. It will deal with independent characters and tanks alike.

-Keep your CSM at 10 members for the sake of having 2x special weapons. They help plug any holes in your list. (I recommend 2x melta for the sake of additional anti-tank)

-Give your CSM IoCG so they can stick around for a little longer unless you can't afford its cheap price.

-Thousand Sons are expensive and not cost effective at 1k.

-If you do get Thousand Sons either buy them doombolt or warptime/meltabomb

 

Fast Attack

-Bikers are very expensive and I don't recommend them for this point level

-Raptors are dirt cheap, but fragile. Buy them if you have a purpose for them.

-Spawn aren't an amazing use of points

 

Heavy Support

-Obliterators are amazing for the price and allow you to prepare for everything and anything. They're like swiss army knives for a low point cost. Buy more than one.

-Predators bring more fire power to the table than obliterators and can be geared toward more anti-tank. They are fragile though so use them if you plan to cover them well.

-Land raiders are great assault platforms for things that like to bash skulls in, they are expensive though

-Defilers bring a lot of fire power to the table too, but they have a bad side effect of being fragile and making your opponent wet themselves and aim every anti-tank gun at them.

 

With these in mind, once you get a better feel for chaos you can go ahead and start breaking these thoughts. Ultimately though you want to try some of the units out and see which ones you like and which ones you don't like and build a list that ultimately satisfies you. If you need more help on seeing how best to accomplish what you want out of a list (or to streamline/refine/redo/etc your list) then post it up on the army list section of these boards.

 

Hope this helped.

[chaplain belisarius]

ive never liked the daemon prince and obliterator spam (in my opinion these units should only be 0-1).

 

It depends on what your theme is...but a pair of ten man chaos marine squads in rhinos are a good place to start! :)

[Zhukov]

Welcome to the dark side! And Kindly ignore the 'requirement' of two daemon princes with wings... unless you like feeling like a cheese-monkey (and you don't sound like you do :) ) Sure Daemon Princes are cheap, but if you want to get enjoyment out of a game (and by that I mean enjoyment other than by beating some poor fellow's face in) and earn a reputation for a fun gamer to play against and a good sportsman) You'll see that one daemon prince gives you a nice balance between theme, power, and not being worth your weight in Cheddar.

I beg you pardon? I'm pretty sure people know me as a fun gamer to play against and a good sportsman. I also dont use 2x Prince so I can beat some poor fellow's face.

 

Really, why do people like you always act so rude towards the people who use strong lists? Just learn to accept that there are more possibitlies than 'nice with weak lists' and 'bastard behaviour with strong list'.

 

Just try to give your opinion about the actual lists, while leaving your opinions towards other people out of it. It would be the same as me saying now against you: You are a bad player and use weak lists so you have an excuse when you lose. Apart from the question whether i'm right or not, its not of any relevance is it?

 

If everybody just gives his about about the units/lists, i'm sure the OP can decide himself what he thinks suits him best, dont you agree?

[Mr. Sandbot]

Welcome to the dark side! And Kindly ignore the 'requirement' of two daemon princes with wings... unless you like feeling like a cheese-monkey (and you don't sound like you do :) ) Sure Daemon Princes are cheap, but if you want to get enjoyment out of a game (and by that I mean enjoyment other than by beating some poor fellow's face in) and earn a reputation for a fun gamer to play against and a good sportsman) You'll see that one daemon prince gives you a nice balance between theme, power, and not being worth your weight in Cheddar.

I beg you pardon? I'm pretty sure people know me as a fun gamer to play against and a good sportsman. I also dont use 2x Prince so I can beat some poor fellow's face.

 

Really, why do people like you always act so rude towards the people who use strong lists? Just learn to accept that there are more possibitlies than 'nice with weak lists' and 'bastard behaviour with strong list'.

 

Just try to give your opinion about the actual lists, while leaving your opinions towards other people out of it. It would be the same as me saying now against you: You are a bad player and use weak lists so you have an excuse when you lose. Apart from the question whether i'm right or not, its not of any relevance is it?

 

If everybody just gives his about about the units/lists, i'm sure the OP can decide himself what he thinks suits him best, dont you agree?

 

Its still good to give the OP a heads up that some people will overreact to the 2x lash prince list. Its unfortunate and not very common but it does happen sadly.

 

Once again though, if anyone says its cheap, overpwered or cheese just tell them to beat it with lots of vehicles and anything that can block psychic powers. Otherwise player opinion shouldn't factor into your list. Take a look at what units are good and which are bad, along with what units you have the most fun using and decide from there.

[Lady_Canoness]

I beg you pardon? I'm pretty sure people know me as a fun gamer to play against and a good sportsman. I also dont use 2x Prince so I can beat some poor fellow's face.

 

Really, why do people like you always act so rude towards the people who use strong lists? Just learn to accept that there are more possibitlies than 'nice with weak lists' and 'bastard behaviour with strong list'.

 

Just try to give your opinion about the actual lists, while leaving your opinions towards other people out of it. It would be the same as me saying now against you: You are a bad player and use weak lists so you have an excuse when you lose. Apart from the question whether i'm right or not, its not of any relevance is it?

 

If everybody just gives his about about the units/lists, i'm sure the OP can decide himself what he thinks suits him best, dont you agree?

 

I hear you Zhukov, but I like a game when the person across the table actually enjoys a hard fought, balanced match that isn't a landslide for either person - and y'know, the wide-eyed 'you are doing what?' look I get from even *one* Lash makes the game considerably less fun. Call me old fashioned, but having 2 Princes flying around and moving two enemy units a turn just rubs me the wrong way (kind of like using steel wool instead of toilet paper...)

I don't know you, so I can't judge your sportsmanship, and its nice to know you don't go face bashing with 2 DPs... though I don't honestly know what else you'd do with 2 DPs...

 

People like me always act so rude towards people with "strong" lists because *we* are tired of seeing the same thing over and over again - its like a cooking recipe for how to make the ultimate Chaos Cake ("ooops! you forgot your two Daemon Princes, didn't you? Well, I guess you have to go back to the loser table!") and because *we* know that you can still have a strong list without cut-and-pasting the same army onto the table over and over again. Actually, I think I'm doing the OP a favour by representing the people like Argon and others who think of theme and fairness instead of numbers.

 

Hell yea I like to purposely take lists without Daemon Princes (Look Zhukov - a bad list!!) and take units that people who play by the numbers write-off (like the dreadnoughts that see a lot of bench time) because I can laugh about it, enjoy it, and get to actually work for a win instead of Lashing units around the table so that he can't possibly fight back.

Sandbot does have a point though, and people can counter the Lash - yet I am of the (obviously incorrect, right?) opinion that the person across from me shouldn't have to take a list based on what I have, but on what he or she wants to take.

[Supreme Overlord]

Thanks for the replies! It would take forever to respond to every tidbit of information you've all listed here, but I am taking all of it into account for when I do up another list.

 

What format do your TO run? is it hard or soft? do they run 1 mission over and over or are missions changed each round? DO they just use the standard 3 missions or do they use custom or expansion missions?

 

From what I remember, its 3 games, and usually the standard three missions each time.

 

I would take the advice of 99% of all the chaos players though: stay away from Spawn.

 

Yeah thats what I thought, which is why I found it interesting that killersquid used all those spawn and managed to do quite well in that tournament. I guess they work well for some people?

 

Welcome to the dark side! And Kindly ignore the 'requirement' of two daemon princes with wings... unless you like feeling like a cheese-monkey (and you don't sound like you do )

 

I was never known as a cheese monkey back when I used to play, and I'd like to keep it that way! ^_^

 

Ok, so I'm gathering from all the above posts, theres a general agreement on a couple of things:

 

-Obliterators and DPs are exceptional, and they are a bargain considering what they do.

-Plague Marines, Berzerkers and standard CSMs are all good troop choices and should be taken with a rhino.

-Everyone except for killersquid seems to think spawn aren't very good.

-Defilers draw fire as though they have a big red "shoot here" sign painted on them.

 

Seems to me thats theres a bit of differing opinions on Elites and Fast Attack. Some like termies and chosen at this level, others not so much; some think Bikes and Raptors aren't very good, some like Raptors etc etc.

 

Just because the models look so ridiculously awesome I wanted to include some terminators, or failing that, some chosen (that I can model myself). At the 1k points level, what would be good loadouts for these units?

 

And also on a somewhat unrelated topic, would it be acceptable to use the plastic CSM models, make them all Nurgle-like and use them as Plague Marines instead of the metal ones?

[Rain]

I don't think 2x lash is even in vogue anymore, most powergamers now run 2x nurgle prince or 1x nurgle 1x undivided to save points as mech has largely sidelined lash and Nids that have no mech have shadow in the warp. In any case, although I don't take 2 princes due to fluff, 1 prince is indeed almost necessary as he is just so obviously better than a lord or sorcerer. As for oblits, fluff or not, they are just straight up the best unit in our codex in my opinion so take them if possible, I have pretty much never been let down by them and I can say that of no other unit I've ever used, they have certainly won me games and they practically never just whiff, as long as you play them smart they will make back their points and then some.

[the jeske]

Call me old fashioned, but having 2 Princes flying around and moving two enemy units a turn just rubs me the wrong way (kind of like using steel wool instead of toilet paper...)

not against anything imperial[hoods /staffs] or to some extand nids and eldar[shadow/runes] and anything mecha[more or less most armies being played]. 2 lash are played [if they ever get to be played in 5th ed] because if you take one the chance of it actualy being used is too small.

 

and because *we* know that you can still have a strong list without cut-and-pasting the same army onto the table over and over again

how strange it is then that most good tournament armies always have the same sort of units in them . how very odd.

 

 

 

Sandbot does have a point though, and people can counter the Lash - yet I am of the (obviously incorrect, right?) opinion that the person across from me shouldn't have to take a list based on what I have, but on what he or she wants to take.

aha so this means I can take tanks or transports , because necrons and nids and orcs have problems with them [would be unfair for them to be forced to run units specialy to do anti tank] . same with psychic powers , orcs , chaos , tau , necron dont even have ways to counter them , so everyone else should stop playing them , because those armies would have to think about the usage of psychic powers at the level of list building . It could go on and on and on like this and it would end up with everyone playing identical lists[only fair] , no terrain[terrain could be unfair] and with 2 games played each time . one time you start one time you dont[starting can decide if you win or lose].

Yeah thats what I thought, which is why I found it interesting that killersquid used all those spawn and managed to do quite well in that tournament. I guess they work well for some people?

ask him to give the lists of armies he played against.

 

Just because the models look so ridiculously awesome I wanted to include some terminators, or failing that, some chosen (that I can model myself). At the 1k points level, what would be good loadouts for these units?

there are non. they dont fit in to 1k points. if termis are used then as termicid . 3 naked guys with 3 combis. if chosen are used then with special spam in a rhino for fast outflank. everything else is either overcosted , not better then normal chaos troops or [in the case of termis] oblits etc. one can start to think about them when all hvy and all troops slots are full , which also means your somewhere up there playing 2k or more points.

 

 

also hi Z .

[Mr. Sandbot]

I beg you pardon? I'm pretty sure people know me as a fun gamer to play against and a good sportsman. I also dont use 2x Prince so I can beat some poor fellow's face.

 

Really, why do people like you always act so rude towards the people who use strong lists? Just learn to accept that there are more possibitlies than 'nice with weak lists' and 'bastard behaviour with strong list'.

 

Just try to give your opinion about the actual lists, while leaving your opinions towards other people out of it. It would be the same as me saying now against you: You are a bad player and use weak lists so you have an excuse when you lose. Apart from the question whether i'm right or not, its not of any relevance is it?

 

If everybody just gives his about about the units/lists, i'm sure the OP can decide himself what he thinks suits him best, dont you agree?

 

I hear you Zhukov, but I like a game when the person across the table actually enjoys a hard fought, balanced match that isn't a landslide for either person - and y'know, the wide-eyed 'you are doing what?' look I get from even *one* Lash makes the game considerably less fun. Call me old fashioned, but having 2 Princes flying around and moving two enemy units a turn just rubs me the wrong way (kind of like using steel wool instead of toilet paper...)

I don't know you, so I can't judge your sportsmanship, and its nice to know you don't go face bashing with 2 DPs... though I don't honestly know what else you'd do with 2 DPs...

 

People like me always act so rude towards people with "strong" lists because *we* are tired of seeing the same thing over and over again - its like a cooking recipe for how to make the ultimate Chaos Cake ("ooops! you forgot your two Daemon Princes, didn't you? Well, I guess you have to go back to the loser table!") and because *we* know that you can still have a strong list without cut-and-pasting the same army onto the table over and over again. Actually, I think I'm doing the OP a favour by representing the people like Argon and others who think of theme and fairness instead of numbers.

 

Hell yea I like to purposely take lists without Daemon Princes (Look Zhukov - a bad list!!) and take units that people who play by the numbers write-off (like the dreadnoughts that see a lot of bench time) because I can laugh about it, enjoy it, and get to actually work for a win instead of Lashing units around the table so that he can't possibly fight back.

Sandbot does have a point though, and people can counter the Lash - yet I am of the (obviously incorrect, right?) opinion that the person across from me shouldn't have to take a list based on what I have, but on what he or she wants to take.

 

I play Thousand Sons, so I really do understand the whole "take what you want" idea. But for a returning 40k player at 1kpts I think it would be easier to understand how Chaos normally handles different situations rather than to just tell them to take what they want and figure things out through trial and error. The whole "cooking recipe of chaos" that you mentioned earlier still does serve its purpose in giving you a good start on how this army works and how to play to its strengths. Once you understand how to play the "standard" you can start swapping things out for what you want and begin to build effective lists for yourself. From there you can branch out and start doing crazy things like....ionno...spawn heavy lists.

 

As for the counters in a list, its one of those things you should have already packed into your list to keep it at a safe level for all opponents. Like lots of rhinos cause they're just all around useful, or land raiders because the point cost is high enough and you have something important to get into smashy range. Also, I would like to point out that a good deal of the time what your army is tends to control what your opponent suddenly wants to take. For example if you played horde nids vs a marine player. He sure as hell isn't going to arm his tacs with multimeltas and meltas and as a result he'll want to take flamers instead.

[Zhukov]

I hear you Zhukov, but I like a game when the person across the table actually enjoys a hard fought, balanced match that isn't a landslide for either person - and y'know, the wide-eyed 'you are doing what?' look I get from even *one* Lash makes the game considerably less fun. Call me old fashioned, but having 2 Princes flying around and moving two enemy units a turn just rubs me the wrong way (kind of like using steel wool instead of toilet paper...)

I don't know you, so I can't judge your sportsmanship, and its nice to know you don't go face bashing with 2 DPs... though I don't honestly know what else you'd do with 2 DPs...

Do you know what I like most in this game? Hard fought and balanced match, where the person who played best wins. If I'm coming with a very strong list and my oponent does the same then I'm getting what I want. For that reason I play with good lists.

 

You talk about Lash a lot, I dont ever use Lash. Not even when I'm going to big tournements. Why? I think its stupid that I can move someone else his models, apart from the question if its overpowered or not atm.

 

What I do with 2 Princes? It ensures I have a balanced list which can win against every list I face. They make my list 'complete'. You dont take units to bash oponents, you take units to make a list. Its about the whole list, not individual units.

 

Also please stop saying things like 'cheddar' or 'cheese' in combination with 2x Prince. This obviously shows your lack of knowledge about balance in this game. Without Deamon Princes our list becomes mediocre or less. Without deamon Princes we cant compete with the best. They make our (only working) lists work well.

 

People like me always act so rude towards people with "strong" lists because *we* are tired of seeing the same thing over and over again - its like a cooking recipe for how to make the ultimate Chaos Cake ("ooops! you forgot your two Daemon Princes, didn't you? Well, I guess you have to go back to the loser table!") and because *we* know that you can still have a strong list without cut-and-pasting the same army onto the table over and over again.

Well thats the problem, you cant. The whole list collapses. The synergy is completely gone. If you play with a 'bad' chaos list against a good player who uses a good list, you have almost no chance at all. Its sad, but the truth unfortunately. Does this mean you should go with the standard chaos list? No, do what you want. But dont say things which simply arent true.

 

 

also hi Z .

Hey Jeske! Its good to be back after my 2 months break of 40k ^^

[Lady_Canoness]

You talk about Lash a lot, I dont ever use Lash. Not even when I'm going to big tournements. Why? I think its stupid that I can move someone else his models, apart from the question if its overpowered or not atm.

Glad to hear it - I totally agree with you on this one.

 

What I do with 2 Princes? It ensures I have a balanced list which can win against every list I face. They make my list 'complete'. You dont take units to bash oponents, you take units to make a list. Its about the whole list, not individual units.

***

Well thats the problem, you cant. The whole list collapses. The synergy is completely gone. If you play with a 'bad' chaos list against a good player who uses a good list, you have almost no chance at all. Its sad, but the truth unfortunately. Does this mean you should go with the standard chaos list? No, do what you want. But dont say things which simply arent true.

I disagree largely because 40k lists in general (and Chaos lists in particular) have virtually no synergy whatsoever. Want synergy? Play Warmachine. 40k is built on independent units that act independently from one another, and - since Daemon Princes are monstrous creatures with no powers other than simply killing stuff - their synergy is reduced to "Look, I draw fire from that unit onto me! So much synergy!" Other than transports, no units in 40k can claim to be worth more than the sum of their parts - unless you count drawing fire as 'synergy'.

So apparently all my lists collapse because I don't use 2 daemon princes - and rarely even use one. I guess that would explain why I lose all the time. Or wait, I don't lose all the time. What, are you going to say that the good dozen people in my club are all bad gamers because they can't beat an obviously lesser list? Somehow I can compete without 2 daemon princes.... and you can't? huh... you're right - I must be the lesser player! I play with list without 2 daemon princes and can win without them! Something must be wrong!

 

Also please stop saying things like 'cheddar' or 'cheese' in combination with 2x Prince. This obviously shows your lack of knowledge about balance in this game. Without Deamon Princes our list becomes mediocre or less. Without deamon Princes we cant compete with the best. They make our (only working) lists work well.

Wow - really wow. So, our having some of the strongest troops choices in the game mean that our list is mediocre? What about those Oblits, the defiler, and the possessed vindicator? My lord Zhukov! I had no idea that our list was so weak! What's that you say? A list is only strong based on its HQ? How right you must be! We all know those Tau would be lost without their Commanders - or those Space Marines without Vulkan and Pedro! I can hardly believe that I was so foolish as to think that our list ever had anything to offer! Thank goodness for those two winged Daemon Princes - otherwise we would really have no reason to play Chaos at all! How fortunate we are to have someone with your wisdom to point out how we are really playing a substandard list!

Really, I am surprised you haven't joined the ranks of Blood Angels in disguise if you think the Daemon Prince is Chaos' only saving grace... But then again you are the proud owner of Space Wolves - and proud you should be, since they do not have the glaring weaknesses of our dear Chaos Marines.

 

Your sig says you have what, 2k points of Chaos? Come back to me when you have tripled that number, played with many more units, and actually have something to say other than how we are all suckers for not running 2 daemon princes.

[Zhukov]

You have really problems staying polite dont you? You can only be right when you try and insult me, imply things I did not say and when you use !!!! a lot?

 

unless you count drawing fire as 'synergy'.

There is indeed not a large amount of synergy possible, so considering to that standards; yes thats the synergy the Deamon Prince at least gives and which the Lords/sorcerers dont.

 

So apparently all my lists collapse because I don't use 2 daemon princes - and rarely even use one. I guess that would explain why I lose all the time. Or wait, I don't lose all the time. What, are you going to say that the good dozen people in my club are all bad gamers because they can't beat an obviously lesser list? Somehow I can compete without 2 daemon princes.... and you can't? huh... you're right - I must be the lesser player! I play with list without 2 daemon princes and can win without them! Something must be wrong!

I can win fine with non-optimal lists too against allright players, just like you. I and you cannot however win against very good player who use optimised tournements lists without Deamon Princes. Collapses is maybe a big word, but it definately is a pretty big difference. I'm pretty sure if you played with your chaos without Princes against my Eldar or SW that I would win 90% of those battles. I'm assuming we are both of equal skill here. (because skill is by far the most influencing variable in 40k in my opinion)

 

Wow - really wow. So, our having some of the strongest troops choices in the game mean that our list is mediocre? What about those Oblits, the defiler, and the possessed vindicator? My lord Zhukov! I had no idea that our list was so weak! What's that you say? A list is only strong based on its HQ? How right you must be! We all know those Tau would be lost without their Commanders - or those Space Marines without Vulkan and Pedro! I can hardly believe that I was so foolish as to think that our list ever had anything to offer! Thank goodness for those two winged Daemon Princes - otherwise we would really have no reason to play Chaos at all! How fortunate we are to have someone with your wisdom to point out how we are really playing a substandard list!

Really, I am surprised you haven't joined the ranks of Blood Angels in disguise if you think the Daemon Prince is Chaos' only saving grace... But then again you are the proud owner of Space Wolves - and proud you should be, since they do not have the glaring weaknesses of our dear Chaos Marines.

I have problems understanding what you want here... Have you even read what I said? Without Deamon Princes are list becomes in the middle line, with them we are still top. I dont see the problem here. But go on, try to make me look bad with your sarcastic 'jokes' instead of arguing seriously.

 

Your sig says you have what, 2k points of Chaos? Come back to me when you have tripled that number, played with many more units, and actually have something to say other than how we are all suckers for not running 2 daemon princes.

Completely wrong assumption. I tested pretty much every unit in the Chaos Codex. Do you know why I only have 2k left? Because I sold the rest. I invested the money into other armies instead while keeping my Tournements lists possible, as I find the Eldar and SW codex more interesting to play with.

 

And please point me to the line where I say everybody who doesnt run 2 deamon princes are suckers? Where mate, where? I merely say taking other choices makes your list worse by quite some margin, thats all. That you are not willing to accept that ... well fact, thats your choice. But dont try to flame me and imply things I didnt say because you dont like my opinion. And I'm also not saying that you should play with Deamon Princes. Nobody has to. I'm never saying that somebody should do something, so please stop spreading such nonsense.

 

If you cant be a little more polite, I wont reply to you anymore. I'm not going to argue with people who need a certain style of language to be right.

[Rain]

Yeah I gotta go with Zhukov on this, I mean I have never run 2x princes because I haven't played in any kind of tourney since the days of 3.5 anyway so I play fairly fluffy, but arguing that 2x princes does not optimize a list is pretty silly. Now sure you can beat other casual gamers with a casual list and my casual lists definitely win a lot more than they lose, but that's because I don't take them to tournaments, it's all about the environment you play in. Oh and lords are garbage. Blissgiver is alright against other HQ's but other than that they are completely awful compared to a flying MC with 4 wounds.

[Maelekor the Wanderer]

I think the Lady has a point in this.

 

The focus of csm players on this thread seems to be about optimal lists with 2dps.

The Chaos codex is a big book with lots of possibilities for what makes a good list I think.

 

Other than that, you guys just like to argue over minor differences.