Chaos Marines at 1000pts

[Mr. Sandbot]

...their synergy is reduced to "Look, I draw fire from that unit onto me! So much synergy!"... So apparently all my lists collapse because I don't use 2 daemon princes - and rarely even use one. I guess that would explain why I lose all the time. Or wait, I don't lose all the time. What, are you going to say that the good dozen people in my club are all bad gamers because they can't beat an obviously lesser list? Somehow I can compete without 2 daemon princes.... and you can't? huh... you're right - I must be the lesser player! I play with list without 2 daemon princes and can win without them! Something must be wrong!...

Wow - really wow. So, our having some of the strongest troops choices in the game mean that our list is mediocre? What about those Oblits, the defiler, and the possessed vindicator? My lord Zhukov! I had no idea that our list was so weak! What's that you say? A list is only strong based on its HQ? How right you must be! We all know those Tau would be lost without their Commanders - or those Space Marines without Vulkan and Pedro! I can hardly believe that I was so foolish as to think that our list ever had anything to offer! Thank goodness for those two winged Daemon Princes - otherwise we would really have no reason to play Chaos at all! How fortunate we are to have someone with your wisdom to point out how we are really playing a substandard list!

Really, I am surprised you haven't joined the ranks of Blood Angels in disguise if you think the Daemon Prince is Chaos' only saving grace... But then again you are the proud owner of Space Wolves - and proud you should be, since they do not have the glaring weaknesses of our dear Chaos Marines.

Your sig says you have what, 2k points of Chaos? Come back to me when you have tripled that number, played with many more units, and actually have something to say other than how we are all suckers for not running 2 daemon princes.

 

Please don't insult Zhukov with your sarcasm. If you can't come up with a good rebuttal then don't bother posting one with an offensive one.

 

I would also like to point out that a good portion of what you're accusing Zhukov for saying never really happened. I don't think theres any point in time where he said our list was "so weak" without dps. I also am pretty sure he never said that "a list is only strong based on its HQ". He never even said "we are all suckers for not running 2 daemon princes". All Zhukov is pointing out is that without Daemon princes Chaos tends to falter against other competitive lists and choices.

 

I think the Lady has a point in this.

 

The focus of csm players on this thread seems to be about optimal lists with 2dps.

The Chaos codex is a big book with lots of possibilities for what makes a good list I think.

 

Other than that, you guys just like to argue over minor differences.

 

Ultimately the Chaos dex has a lot of possibilities. The problem is that it normally ends in a decent or mediocre list overall. But there are only a few options in our dex that really shine through as cost-effective.

Does that mean they're the mandatory buy for every chaos player?

well no. The game is still about fun and its still possible to win with another list that doesn't use competitive choices. Its just that you have to work a lot harder for the win than your opponent will if he/she uses a competitive list. We also recommend you don't jump into a tournament expecting several wins with a list filled to the brim with Dreadnoughts, lords, spawn and greater daemons.

 

EDIT: deleted anything that could possibly even resemble a personal attack as per Nihm's instructions

[Lady_Canoness]

And here comes the all-trumping maturity card - Far be it from me to argue with that!

My favourite part must be about the illogical nonsense :P

 

I'm presenting a point of view - one that, it would seem, has ruffled some feathers. And by the way, something about "The whole list collapses" (without DPs) flies in the face of every other unit the can prop up a powerful list. The OP deserves to know that Chaos can and is strong without DPs - so I am illustrating that (as infuriating as it must be to read.)

 

Around where I come from there are generally two types of gamers for any game: Power Gamers and Friendly gamers. Power gamers crank out what might be called optimal lists which maximize efficiency, while friendly gamers build armies based on theme and what they imagine would actually be on the table. Needless to say, the proposed list of 2 daemon princes complimented by 15 Plague Marines would not roll with these chaps. I once knew a Tau player who ran two tricked out hammer heads at 750 points. After several games he found himself not well-liked, even though his list was powerful. Power Gamers - unless playing against another Power Gamer - would often face the dreaded 'scoop' or be denied a match all together. Whereas friendly gamers - who sought to make the game as fun as possible by working the codex through and through and fielding units with bizzare and unique abilities - never found themselves without a willing opponent.

Maybe the OP has a similar gaming community. Maybe not. Either way it is something to consider - and something oft overlooked on 40k forums.

 

Now, who next would like to smear me with another maturity card? Or even a gender card? Hmmm?

[Brother Nihm]

I'd like to open up a 24 hour window, in which every poster involved in this thread reviews their replies and edits them to exclude personal attacks and the like.

After the 24 hours are up, if personal attacks still exist, warnings will be given.

 

As always people, keep it civil & keep it constructive.

[the jeske]

And by the way, something about "The whole list collapses" (without DPs) flies in the face of every other unit the can prop up a powerful list. The OP deserves to know that Chaos can and is strong without DPs - so I am illustrating that (as infuriating as it must be to read.)

show the lists ?

if he tries to run csm , the the list collapses as you say it nicely . 10 man rhinos means he would either have to slogg the HQ[bad idea] put them in to a bike/raptor/terminator unit[bad ,overcosted or both at the same time . not in the order of choices listed] , he can try to play with 9 man squads , but then A he is giving fewer targets [making it easier for his opponents to focus fire on his army] B he makes the csm unit rather crapy with one special.

other option is to run plagues and zerkers, lets assumed he wants to use cult units . the focus fire thing is still there , lords are still as "good" as they are . an identicaly build zekrer/pm build with one runing lords or even sorc , compared to the same build but with DPs , what is more flexible gives more power, more tactical options and is easier to use ?

Power Gamers - unless playing against another Power Gamer - would often face the dreaded 'scoop' or be denied a match all together. Whereas friendly gamers - who sought to make the game as fun as possible by working the codex through and through and fielding units with bizzare and unique abilities - never found themselves without a willing opponent.

ok and why are the fluff heads suppose to be the more supported sort of player and not the gamers [because w40k is a game] ? why is beers and pretzel suppose to be the better way of playing ? why is the the gamers who always have to change their armies to something they dont want to play[by the way how would a "friendly player act" if I started to build the army for him + I would make it both unfluffy and bad ?] ?

I am gamer , I play the game it is even in w40k name . I can play anyone another gamer or fluff head . sure the game against a fluff head may not be as good for me , but I in the end its the fluff heads choice what he wants to play. I can give advice what works and what doesnt , but no man has to power to force another [unless he is in the DT] to play certain options. fluff heads on the other hand think that is perfectly normal for them to make lists for other players[because saying someone cant play with X,Y,Z is just that].

and then they say we are immature , that we havent grown up to the type of "gaming" they practice . :P

[killersquid]

Wow thats an interesting list. I've never seen that many chaos spawn, but if you only lost one of those games in the tourney they must be at least somewhat effect en masse haha.

 

In all my lists so far, I've had at least two 10 man CSM squads, and I thought that would be the bare minumum for an effective CSM list at 1000pts, maybe thats why I dont have much points left for the scalpel and sledgehammer units of a Chaos army. Does the two five-man squads work ok in terms of objective taking and survivability?

 

 

I used the two 5 man units to finish off some squads weakened by spawn a few times. But they mostly spent most of the game not doing a whole lot (besides trying not to die). The main thing is using the Spawn and Princes to remove my opponents ability to hurt my troops. Keeping the marines in reserve worked well, as did keeping the force together and compact. In my first post, I included a link to the post-tourney battle report detailing my games.

 

Two princes are good, as they are a wonderful distraction and most armies cannot handle fighting two of them at that level. Adding in more multiple wound models adds a lot of pressure.

[HelbrechtsSword]

The Chaos Codex is really powerful and is bursting with units that are top-tier and capable of making a very well-rounded force.

 

Really? Are you Gav Thorpe in disguise?

 

The OP deserves to know that Chaos can and is strong without DPs..

 

With what HQ? The only decent option is Khârn.

 

Around where I come from there are generally two types of gamers for any game: Power Gamers and Friendly gamers. Power gamers crank out what might be called optimal lists which maximize efficiency, while friendly gamers build armies based on theme and what they imagine would actually be on the table. Needless to say, the proposed list of 2 daemon princes complimented by 15 Plague Marines would not roll with these chaps...

 

Here's my friendly list, it has a nurgle theme.

 

2x DP's MoN Warptime Wings 350

2x5 Plague Marines with Rhinos and 2Meltaguns 340

1xCombi-flamer on Rhino

2xDefilers with 2xCCW 300.

 

1000 Pts. Sort of a mini chaoszilla.

[Supreme Overlord]

I used the two 5 man units to finish off some squads weakened by spawn a few times. But they mostly spent most of the game not doing a whole lot (besides trying not to die). The main thing is using the Spawn and Princes to remove my opponents ability to hurt my troops. Keeping the marines in reserve worked well, as did keeping the force together and compact. In my first post, I included a link to the post-tourney battle report detailing my games.

 

I don't think I'd be able to use two 5 man squads as my troops, every time they get shot at I would be scared they'd all die (I need to get out of the Ork psychology of having as many troops as possible :) )And yeah, I had a read of the battle report, quite an interesting tourney.

 

Maybe the OP has a similar gaming community. Maybe not.

 

Well, in my main group of 5 or so gamers, we're mostly a mix of fluff heads and gamer gamers (except for this one guy who never wins, even though he always takes the cheesiest lists he can come up with. Funny stuff), but the 1000pt list I'm making is for the local tourney which includes a lot of gamers I either wouldn't know or wouldn't regulary game with (including power gamers, don't get me started on the land speeder of doom army I encountered once ;) ). So I'd rather have an effective list than a fluffy list to be honest, but not a list that is dripping with melted cheese if you know what I mean.

 

The lists I've made up so far are basically a Daemon Prince and two Obliterators, but I'm still deciding on what combination of troops choices. I've thought about three 10 man CSM units; two CSM units plus a zerker or plague marines unit; or maybe three plague marine units. Lots of different combinations to choose from (maybe I should try them all in some practice games).

 

I haven't seen any mentions of Noise Marines. Are they of any use?

[Chainswood]

I entered a 1'000pt tournament in the New Year with the following list:

 

Daemon Prince of Slaneesh, Wings, Lash of Submission - 155 points.

Sorcerer of Slaneesh with Plasma Pistol & Lash of Submission - 140 points.

8 Plague Marines, Champion with Powerfist, 2 Melta Guns, Rhino - 279 points.

7 Noise Marines, Champion with Powerfist, 6 Sonic Blasters, Rhino with Dozer Blade - 265 points.

2 Obliterators - 150 points.

 

I managed to win three out of five games, and got possibly the flukiest kill ever when my Noise Marine Champion blew up a Hammerhead with his Doom Siren.

 

Afterwards though I swapped out the Noise Marines for Thousand Sons, who I've found to be a little more effective. Only thing to watch out for with Chaos Space Marines at a 1'000 points is that our armies tend to be really small.

[chaplain belisarius]

Personally i agree with lady canoness regarding the cookie cutter chaos list of 2 dp and lots of obliterators. Sure, its effective but its pretty boring in my opinion...id rather build my army based around fluff and background than just blindly take the most effective units.

 

Granted, i am not a tournament player-i play for fun and like to try to keep my army as fluffy as i can...

 

I really hope in the next chaos dex sanity prevails and DP and obliterators are reduced to 0-1 in the army list...

 

Just my 2 cents...

[Solidus Veneris]

I really hope in the next chaos dex sanity prevails and DP and obliterators are reduced to 0-1 in the army list...

 

"Sanity is for the weak!" and just for good measure, "Do you hear the voices too!"

 

I completely disagree on Oblits, as IMHO they are the most effective and efficient Heavy option. If they make Lords or Sorcerers as efficient a use of points as DP's I would agree on the 0-1 for DP's.

[Dark Apostle Lorenzo]

Ok I have read all this and by the way it looks I fall into the fluff head category. I would rather lose a close match than win a slaughter. That being said I dont need 2 special weapons in a squad. In the squads I need 2 I have them Champion and the trooper. not much but at 1000 pts The 2 oblits make up for the loss of the extra guys. but thats my 2 cents.

[Mr. Sandbot]

And here comes the all-trumping maturity card - Far be it from me to argue with that!

My favourite part must be about the illogical nonsense :)

 

I'm presenting a point of view - one that, it would seem, has ruffled some feathers. And by the way, something about "The whole list collapses" (without DPs) flies in the face of every other unit the can prop up a powerful list. The OP deserves to know that Chaos can and is strong without DPs - so I am illustrating that (as infuriating as it must be to read.)

 

Around where I come from there are generally two types of gamers for any game: Power Gamers and Friendly gamers. Power gamers crank out what might be called optimal lists which maximize efficiency, while friendly gamers build armies based on theme and what they imagine would actually be on the table. Needless to say, the proposed list of 2 daemon princes complimented by 15 Plague Marines would not roll with these chaps. I once knew a Tau player who ran two tricked out hammer heads at 750 points. After several games he found himself not well-liked, even though his list was powerful. Power Gamers - unless playing against another Power Gamer - would often face the dreaded 'scoop' or be denied a match all together. Whereas friendly gamers - who sought to make the game as fun as possible by working the codex through and through and fielding units with bizzare and unique abilities - never found themselves without a willing opponent.

Maybe the OP has a similar gaming community. Maybe not. Either way it is something to consider - and something oft overlooked on 40k forums.

 

Now, who next would like to smear me with another maturity card? Or even a gender card? Hmmm?

 

Its not a "maturity card", we're asking you kindly to not insult another board member and instead create a more polite response (aka without the mocking sarcasm). Zhukov never said a word of what you accused him of so to me it is illogical and it made no sense as to why you would add that to your post. Its also not infuriating, I just want to know what you think makes the Chaos list strong without DPs and many of the other efficient choices.

 

As for power gamers and fluff heads, saying you're apart of one camp or another doesn't make sense to me since its such a black and white outlook to the 40k community. Ultimately they're both the same thing from my eyes. Both of them are playing a list that makes them happy and that they can have fun with. Its not right for either side to say they have the only, one true way of playing 40k. Competitive lists tend to win more because their lists are tailored specifically to make the best of the game mechanics. Players who use fluff lists made them so they can have more fun with them. Win or lose, fluff list players are using a list they tailored toward pure fun, so why complain? If you lost because your opponents' list was better game-wise than the fault isn't in his list its in yours because it didn't keep you happy then (which was its original purpose). Your opponent played and used a list they felt made them happy, why not use one that does the same for you?

 

In the end OP, use a list that makes you happy (competitive or not) and then ignore what everyone else thinks.

[Supreme Overlord]

Alrighty, thankyou all for the information, I think I've got it all sorted out now.

 

All that remains is to actually get the models, then to decide what legion/warband to paint them as (thats going to be the hardest decision...Alpha Legion? Iron Warriors? Night Lords? Children of Purgatos? So many choices...)

 

You can continue the Daemon prince discussion if you want to, I find it interesting seeing different people's points of views on it.

[Hellios]

Hi I think I would be called a fluff head... but I used to put up a good fight (don't play a lot anymore) with my Eldar (my biggest army) who would win 75% of the time and I used to just make up lists on the spot (based on what I had) and I also had themed lists and stronger lists if I knew it would be a hard fight. Some armies do better or worse but my average again is around 3 out of 4 in my favour... although I have my space wolves who never win... but I swear that luck is involved...

 

As for chaos being weak... or strong... yes chaos has a lot of good units... it also has a lot of poor units when you look at what they do compared to other units and the points they do it for. Chaos has IMO a selection of one of if not the best selection of troops in the game... and I doubt many people would argue against this... Generally chaos FA choices are seen as bad for the points and that they don't do anything special... then we have Elites... which fall into unreliable (AKA dreads and possessed) and ok (Chosen and Termies), which are able to bring a lot of dakka for a low amount of points and are by no means bad but don't super-wow either... Heavy support is pretty much standard marines fair... with posession on the vindi (although if it is destroyed...) and Defiler... oh and did I mention Oblits... some kind of super-terminator that has almost every gun? Then we have HQs... Sorcerers... reason to take them? Psychic powers... which can get shut down by almost every other army and are pretty expensive at that... and unlike other psykers we can't shut down the powers of other races... lords... to kill stuff... like a normal marine captain... the main bonus should be killing stuff with daemonweapons... but not only is it easier to hurt yourself with them now (compared to leadership tests) but you also stand around doing nothing so even if you don't kill yourself you just sit still waiting for the powerfist... and this leaves us with Daemon princes...

 

As the OP was talking about a tourny it seemed giving him powerful options would be wise... if he wants to just take whatever he likes then he isn't in need of any advice now is he? and I did ask questions about the tourny... But as I say I'm a fluff head my main army is 1ksons... think rubrics... lesser daemons... greater daemon (in my army this isn't a waste of points this is a handicap), sorcerer lord and if I'm lucky I might have some sort of heavy support... however I can still recognise that against a strong army (and with the right dex and theme this can be fluffy) I will get kicked in the face... even a bad army from the right list can beat me... yay for 20+ point models that have a 4+ inv and an AP3 bolter against mass orks or gaunts... who have cover no doubt as well...

 

In a way both sides are right... so called power gamers who are more in it to win should be able to take strong armies to try and win if that is what they like doing and fighting against them should be a hard fight... on the other hand people should be able to take units they like and with themes they want to use without having some power gamer table them in turn 1... and the answer to this is very simple but really hard to implement... and it is called Game balance... both within the core rules and armies. My 1kson army should have the choices and options that while remaining fluffy it should be able to give a good fight to a 'cookie cutter' list or whatever else someone might be using... however when one of you lot (or GW) have made a rule set that represents the background well, is full of options and is balanced give me a call. And this is the main reason Chaos players say the chaos codex is bad not because it is weak or weaker than the 3.5 dex but because it is harder to make multiple varied (often themed) strongly competative lists with the current codex compared to the 3.5 dex...

[chaplain belisarius]

I agree that oblits are very ood but it just doesnt seem very sporting to take 2 dp and lots of oblits...unless you were in a tournament and REALLY wanted to win at all costs!

 

unfortunately im more of a fluff nut than a tournament player-which is what i think the difference in opinion in this thread comes down too? (which is why i hope gw make dp and oblits 0-1 in the next dex)

[Zhukov]

I really hope in the next chaos dex sanity prevails and DP and obliterators are reduced to 0-1 in the army list...

I dont think a lot of people would really mind that happenening, on this condition: Give us other wortwhile choices. Right now its a no-discussion choice, no brainers compared to the other units we can field in those slots. (although Defilers arent bad at all, Oblits are better suited for tournement play by far). I would love to play with other units, but the amount of effectiveness i'm giving up with it while it doesnt even change the actual gameplay much/not at all... no thank you.

 

But this comes down to the old 'our dex sux, 3.5 was better! etc etc. Which is true of course.

 

I would rather lose a close match than win a slaughter.

This may be a suprise to you, but many people who use 'power lists' actually enjoy close matches the most too! At least I do. Playing with a weak list doesnt mean you get close matches automaticly, you still get slaughters but now you are on the receiving end of it... Many times the quality of the list also has to do with the oponent his skill, although exceptions are here to made as there are people who use weak lists on purpose and some people copy paste lists from forums of course.

 

I agree that oblits are very ood but it just doesnt seem very sporting to take 2 dp and lots of oblits...unless you were in a tournament and REALLY wanted to win at all costs!

Here lies another problem of our codex. We only can make really strong lists by doing stuff which can be considering 'unfluffy', while on the other hand Space wolves, Orks, Marines and Eldar can make very strong lists which dont look that unsportive. Its also not overpowered, so why do you consider it unsporting if I may ask? I make a list with which I hope I can possibly beat every lists which people throw at me, and I hope to meet such lists too. Its pitty that I cant make such a list while its also somewhat 'credible', because yes even I care about fluff a little. After all the 40k universe probably draws us all to some extent, not only the rules of 40k.

[Dark Apostle Lorenzo]

This may be a suprise to you, but many people who use 'power lists' actually enjoy close matches the most too! At least I do. Playing with a weak list doesnt mean you get close matches automaticly, you still get slaughters but now you are on the receiving end of it... Many times the quality of the list also has to do with the oponent his skill, although exceptions are here to made as there are people who use weak lists on purpose and some people copy paste lists from forums of course.

 

No surprise to me ive been playing 40K since day one of third ed, and necromunda even longer. I have been on both ends of a slaughter and I have enjoyed it on occasion it depends on the opponent. I fight people with my fluff list who use a "Power List" and at the end of the game I get compliments. So you can have a balanced Fluff list that is competetive without 2 dps I dont even have one.

 

 

Oh and for your legion I vote for Word Bearers after all without us the emperor would have ruled the galaxy by now.

[Supreme Overlord]

Oh and for your legion I vote for Word Bearers after all without us the emperor would have ruled the galaxy by now.

 

Coincidently, today when I was trying some colour schemes on some spare models I tried a Word Bearer scheme. It looked very good, and was very easy to do as well. I might end up being an Acolyte of Lorgar after all... :lol:

[chaplain belisarius]

@zhukov-some very good points there mate- i agree that we need some better units (i understand dp and oblit spam happens because its effective-especially in tournaments, right?)

 

I just see it as a bit boring and predictable when i play a chaos army and i see 2 dp, lots of obliterators, some zerks, some pm...thats what im against and i understand this means they messed up with the dex in my opinion...;)

[Darius Macab]

so if one wanted to start a chaos army recomendations are:

 

at least one DP (lash is up to you but is a good choice)

lots of Obliterators

Plague Marines

and a minion for your DP, a Sorcerer (psychy) or a Lord (Killy)

 

also i noticed a lot of people choose one of the four traitor chapters instead of ordinary marines, is there a reason for this?

 

DM

[Zeller]

Traitor chapters? Are you reffering to renegades or the 9 traitor legions?

[Supreme Overlord]

I think he means the four Cult Legions (Berzerkers, Plague Marines etc). The reason for this Darius, from what people have posted here, is that they seem to be more killy (Berzerkers) or tougher (Plague Marines). Personally, Í like the humble (or not so humble) standard Chaos Marine. But don't take my word for it, I'm a newb when it comes to Chaos at the moment.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

The Chaos Codex is really powerful and is bursting with units that are top-tier and capable of making a very well-rounded force.

 

Really? Are you Gav Thorpe in disguise?

Hah, that made me laugh so hard :P

 

But no, I see Lady_Canoness' point. We DO have a lot of powerful and varied choices (I mean, just LOOK at that Troops section! Can you say that about any other Codex? Not with the same assurance I wager), but we also have quite a few absolute stinkers.

 

Here's my friendly list, it has a nurgle theme.

 

2x DP's MoN Warptime Wings 350

2x5 Plague Marines with Rhinos and 2Meltaguns 340

1xCombi-flamer on Rhino

2xDefilers with 2xCCW 300.

 

1000 Pts. Sort of a mini chaoszilla.

Mmmm... That's Punchy. Might have to try that out sometime.

 

Also, on the whole topic of 2DPs/Not 2DPs, I tend to find it's mainly preference and list style. The main reason most people take them is because at anything above 1500/1750, you are starting to run out of troops/heavy support (after all those points spent on cult troops/Obliterators/Defilers/Vindicators), and the only thing that is really punchy is another DP. Personally, I run a Chaos Lord for Fluff, Model AND Points reasons, and he tends to dish out his fair share of pain.

[Supreme Overlord]

Personally, I run a Chaos Lord for Fluff, Model AND Points reasons, and he tends to dish out his fair share of pain.

 

Hm that is interesting, most other posters on this topic don't seem to like Chaos Lords that much...I think I'll try one out some time, considering how awesome all the Chaos Lord models look. Whether I can make it perform well is a different matter entirely :D

[A-A-D-R]

Hello all,

 

Back with the previous codex I played almost all 1000pts pick-up games and a couple with the newest one (I've migrated to WHFB for the time being!) The key to a successful pick-up list at such a low points level is spending your points wisely and making the most of every single unit, e.g. only buy upgrades that your characters need and use. The codex we have now is showing its age compared to the newer (particularly marine equivalent) codex's, this doesn't mean the chaos marines suck, they just can't brandish the same level of "bling" (sorry bad way to describe it!) as say the space wolves or blood angels. A lot of what factors into list building is the environment I play in, with friends whom you can trust you can be more relaxed and feel more comfortable to explore, but if you are like me and rely on pick up games then you have to be sharp as you can't wager on who you may battle. In essence, balance and frugality go a long way, as for units, well I can't really recommend anything because we all have our likes and dislikes, but in pick up games I would advise against taking units that rely too heavily on random dice rolls like possessed, dreadnoughts, spawn... And so forth, not that I'm saying these are bad units, it's just that when playing "randoms" (online multiplayer jargon :P) you don't want your ace units freaking out or the dice delivering your strategy a swift kick to the gonads.

 

For most armies 1000pts is a challenge, you don't have room to feel comfortable and every model counts, with chaos marines there is little expandability and every casualty will be sorely felt, however our basic troops kick most other armies assess on a 1-1 basis, so exploit this and give 'em a good duffin! (English slang, sorry for those who have gone :cuss!?) :P

 

As for the two DP's argument, the fluff-nuts and hardcore gamers have always never seen eye to eye because they're like chalk and cheese, they both want something different out of the same thing and it always causes friction, hell I always had a good chuckle at the debates of yonder when the haines 'dex was still alive! As a dabbler of both serious gaming and fluff gaming I would say that both parts of the hobby are good and bad, like I enjoy making real hardcore lists, what I don't enjoy is steamrolling randoms in pick up games (I gave up this way of gaming when 3.5 was knocked off, caused a lot of issues). Same can be said with fluff gaming, I adore the 40k lore and never a day goes by when I think of themed lists/armies, what I don't like is getting nailed to the board time and again in pick up games, with friends fluff lists are great fun, in the world of pick up, it's like being smacked with a cod in the face every time you are beaten.

 

It's 6 and 2 threes really, I wouldn't normally go out of my way to join in with arguments likes these (because they happen every week and end in the same way) and whilst they are almost always pointless, like trying to wallpaper a wall by headbutting it, sometimes something meaningful is mentioned and we become inspired or change the way we think.