Tactical advice needed

[Maxamato]

Hi All!

 

I went relatively often to tournaments with my DA. Most of the time I use a Death- Greenwing army style.

 

During the tournaments I face often threats which were very difficult for me to handle, like:

- 5 to 10 TH/SS terminator squads

- 6-8 juggernauts of Khorne squads

- 2 or more MC’s in opponents list

- Multiple LR Lists or AV14 vehicles

- 3x3 obliterator lists

- Artillery, like a manticore, or units which were staying deep in the opponent deployment zone

 

I want to ask you how we, as DA, can counter these threats best. Do you have any ideas? I.e are three troop choices in a 2000pts. All-comers list enough in general?

 

Also I’m interested, how many and which troop choices you normally use in your lists, especially for a tournament list.

 

All ideas are welcome and will be helpful.

 

Thanks for reading and I hope for a good discussion.

 

Regards

Maxamato

[Tanhausen]

Quick ideas:

 

- Khorne Juggies are a pain. But big time, huh? I hate them with all my heart. Fortunately, there is only 1 Daemons player in my area so... I'd say the best way to deal with them is either vindicator (any missed save means instant death). Do not attempt to go into close combat... unless you are in cover and get that benefit... or you will be run over.

 

- TH/SS terminators: claws and a chaplain. Re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound and even if they have a 3+, they should feel the pain. If they foot slog, I'd just try to avoid them for as long as possible.

 

- MC... depends. If its Trygon and Nids, you can go with an assault terminator unit. If its Daemons... I'd say shot saturation. Its not a matter of hitting harder than they do (because you can't) but hitting more times. Probably a gun-line would be the best way out. Just some quick numbers: rapid fire by 18 marines (2 sargents not taken into account) is 36 shots at 3+ (.66) wound at 6+ (.16) he misses saves at say 2/6 (.33) means you should deliver 1.25 wounds.. but at least he is not hitting back! (actually, he hits before).

 

If you did this with a normal terminator squad (say 3xPF, 1 x TLC, 1 x TH/SS) in close combat vs WS6 T6 you would do something like:

PF-> 4+,2+,2+(his saves missed): .49 (assuming you charge, unlikely since they usually have wings).

TLC-> 4+,6+, 2+: .10 (I don't know ow to calculate the wound re-roll, but it probably doesn't affect much here)

TH/SS->4+,2+,2+: .16 (if you wound, how he gets Ini 1)

Total: 0.75 wounds... and that is assuming you are are full strenght because you charged. And Daemons have at least 4. And when they loose their last, they have something like Feel no Pain.

 

- LR/AV14 lists... Chainfists are your friends, so is vindicator, so is melta speeders. I'd say its the easiest part of your list :P

 

- I've only played once vs obliterators and it was a Nurgle list... that I tabled and was left with only 1 wound obliterator in table :P I'd say saturation is your friend: heavy bolters or krak missiles and similar.

 

- Artillery: throw a deepstriking squad and try to multiple assault them :D Remember close combat vs vehicles goes to rear armour (usually 10) so even claws can glance at 6+... anything better than claws/MEQ is simply going to shred the armour apart.

 

As for how many troop options are needed... it depends haha If you can devote your troop options only to capture objectives, then I'd say 2 is fine if you are careful with them.

 

If your troop also has to kill (beyond defending itself) then I'd go for at least 4. I play 5 terminator squads and usually devote 2 to secure my base or 2 close by objectives... and use the other 3 to do the killing supported by armour.

 

Hope it helps :)

[Grand Master Springemann]

All right Maxamato

 

I thought long and hard about this and ended up making an army list it has Death-Greenwing theme you like as well as some RW.

 

HQ: Belial with TH+SS

HQ: Sammael on Jetbike

Troops: Tact Squadx10 with Plasma Cannon and Plasmagun SGT W/BP PW

Troops: Tact Sqaudx10 with Plasma Cannon and Plasmagun SGT W/BP PW

Troops: Tact Squadx10 with Lascannon and Meltagun SGT W/BP PW

Troops: Deathwing squad with 2 LC and 3 TH+SS and a Cyclone missile Launcher

Fast Attack: Ravenwing Attack Squadron Bike Squad with bikesx6 with 2 meltaguns and an AB with MM

Elites:Deathwing squad with 2 LC and 3 TH+SS

Heavy: Pred with Twin-Linked Lascannon and Lascannon Spons

Heavy: Vindicator

 

It still leaves you with five points to spare. You could change it if you want but I was looking at your list of targets and thought that with enough AP2 weapons and blast templates from the PC the obliterators, termies and I believe juggernaughts of korne you are covered there. The combine power of all the meltas and lascannons you should be good for Landraider and other AR 14 vehicles. The artillery could be handled by the Ravenwing Squad or if you change the outfit of the DW squad you should be able to get to them. The best part though is that with the two masters on the board you could have six troops and can hold obectives with everybody but the vehicles and the HQ.

 

I tend to run with four troops in any of my lists and with the masters on the board you really dont have an excuse not to have alot of troops. I hope I didn't overstep myself with the list but I thought it might help more than just telling what weapons would work well.

 

Good Luck

[breng77]

actually you could have 5 troops if you have a RW squad and Sammi

[Tanhausen]

Why tacticals if you carry Sammy and Belial?

 

Body cound only? Because if its for the heavy weapons, I'd rather go for a devastators squad (you have a free HS slot).

 

In my opinion, the list lacks a bit of mobility (no transports, no speeders, only RAS and Sammy oving over 15 cm).

 

Also remember, many MC have 4++ and all Daemons have also 4++ or even 3++.

[RayJ]

Those issues you are looking at are exactly the issues most DA lists have serious trouble with. The Monstrous Creatures aren't as big a deal when Deathwing rolls in, but some of the newer characters in Blood Angels and Space Wolves pack the same punch with better survivability (higher initiative or better invulnerable saves)

 

Looking into the current meta-shift based on Space Wolves and Blood Angels, I'm thinking the best viable tournament builds for us are going to be MSU Tactical Squads with Deathwing and Ravenwing to support. The benefit of this list is that it can support any HQ in our codex, where most tournament lists really can only justifiably run with Sammael/Belial, mostly due to transport space.

 

I would probably still use Belial since he's so points efficient (and he gives us some good troops).

 

This style of army does have the problem that some of what it does can be done better with the three 5th-edition Space Marine books, though we can get very close. I think the list works better than at first glance, however because of simple things like our smoke launchers and the synergy between Deathwing and Ravenwing. If we could get teleport homers on tac squads, the list would be superbly brutal.

 

Here's a sample at 2000 points:

 

130 Belial

305 Deathwing Command (AC, 1xCF, Apothecary, Standard Bearer)

180 Tactical Squad (Meltagun, Razorback, TLLC)

180 Tactical Squad (Meltagun, Razorback, TLLC)

175 Tactical Squad (Flamer, Razorback, TLLC)

175 Tactical Squad (Flamer, Razorback, TLLC)

190 Ravenwing Attack Squad (2 Meltaguns, Multi-Melta Attack Bike)

135 Dreadnought (TLAC, ML)

135 Dreadnought (TLAC, ML)

150 Devastators (3 Missile Launchers)

150 Devastators (3 Missile Launchers)

 

There's still about 95 points to play around with, be it grabbing upgrades, or messing with options already there to add in another unit. Things I'd consider are making room for a 3rd devastator squad, or adding the 4th launcher to each of those and upgrading the autocannons on the dreads to lascannons. I'd likely then throw my remaining points into hunter-killer missiles.

 

This is close to being the best non-Ravenwing army that can be built from DA. Ravenwing has the special weapon saturation and mobility to pick pretty much any list apart. I'm just not skilled enough at using only bikes to take something like that to a tournament just yet.

[Tanhausen]

@RayJ

 

The first impression I get from that list is that it must be nightmare in Anihilation: 5 giveaway points (4 razors and the AB).

 

Also, how does the Belial+termies unit blend with the game-plan?

 

I love the idea of 4 mobile scoring units (I really do!) but it looks to me a bit of:

 

- Dreads and devastators sit at the back. If they are reached by close combat specialists (drop pods with wolf terminators, heavy cavalry like Khorne Juggies or Ork bikers to put a few examples), its some 600 points who won't be able to stand their ground :D

 

- 4 troops in transport either hugging cover until turn 4 (hading over the initiative to the opponent and praying he won't put pressure) or splitting and 2 going for 1 objective, 2 for the other.

 

- Bikers to aid Belial drop... melting as they go by.

 

Obviously, I try to be constructive...but I think the post turned out a bit harsh: not my intention :)

[RayJ]

The list has a lot of small units, each of which isn't vital on its own to the list winning. This allows you to position one or two as a throw-away unit when needed to aid the rest of your army in making it through. Lists build around this strategy are known as MSU (multiple small units).

 

These lists spam out a lot of fragile units, that is true. However, such armies are almost always in the advantage in kill-point games. Assume this list is going up against something with 4 fewer units. That is 4 fewer sources of firepower to hit each aspect of my army. It doesn't matter if you can kill 1 razorback a turn if that's all you can reliably kill due to not being able to spread out firepower. Moral of the story is these lists work much better than they appear in killpoint games, especially when properly weilded. Most lists remove the dreads for more razorback units, but I like the more durable firing platform.

 

Marine variants of MSU typically keep a couple of units with flamers to sit on home objectives, and steadily move the bulk of their force with planning ahead for the late-game objective push. Space Wolves and Blood Angels use psychic powers to give their tanks 5+ saves on the march and increase durability. We can't do that, but our smoke launchers help keep us up fairly well.

 

The plan is to reserve the terminators for sure, and deep strike off of the bikes. If you can scout ahead without making yourself too open to incoming fire, that can be good, but otherwise, protect the bikes with the armor wall from a couple of rhinos. Also, the bikes should be used to entice small sections of the opponents army to pounce out and overextend. They are a sacrificial unit, but require careful planning to ensure they get every ounce of power they can in-game. The termiantors provide you with a great counter-assault unit that just so happens to score. Use Belial to take excess wounds as he is the least-needed model in the list. By not coming in until turn 2 and having the apothecary on hand, you'll probably have 1 or 2 Deathwing left, even if the opponent tries very hard to get to them.

 

By combining the long-range firepower in this list (there's a lot) with the frontal melta coverage, you have a couple of threat bands that can't easily be dealt with. The Devastators sitting in the back are just small enough that most opponents will ignore them for a couple of turns to hit your tanks and try and limit your mobility. Proper use of terrain, smoke launchers, and interweaving armor facings will keep those alive while the missiles pound away and make your job easier. The missiles are great because they can take on both infantry and MCs/Armor.

 

With all that said, remember you have to play the mission and adapt to both the opponent's army and the terrain. Lists such as these are built to scrap it out for 3-4 turns, fighting forward bit by bit and then push to the objectives for a wonderful finish.

[Tanhausen]

Dunno... as I say, I like the list concept.

 

I didn't know that MSU concept.

 

One thing is for sure: that list looks quite hard to play because of the frailty and little margin for error.

[Grand Master Springemann]

Well you could always drop one of the tacts in my list and buys some rhinos or razorbacks to get the mobility and will have some points for a LS or two. I don't like the Dev squads beccause they tend to attract a lot of fire and the heavy weapons cost more then I would care to pay for them. With assault base armies the DA can not go toe to toe with them. I find the best to deal with those lists are to slow them down and shoot the piss out of them.

[Maxamato]

Hi All!

 

Thanks for the replies. Good points there.

 

- Khorne Juggies are a pain. But big time, huh? I hate them with all my heart. Fortunately, there is only 1 Daemons player in my area so... I'd say the best way to deal with them is either vindicator (any missed save means instant death).

Sorry, but Juggernauts are immune to instant death because they have the demonic rule.

 

However, you have make some good points Tanhausen.

 

HQ: Belial with TH+SS

HQ: Sammael on Jetbike

Troops: Tact Squadx10 with Plasma Cannon and Plasmagun SGT W/BP PW

Troops: Tact Sqaudx10 with Plasma Cannon and Plasmagun SGT W/BP PW

Troops: Tact Squadx10 with Lascannon and Meltagun SGT W/BP PW

Troops: Deathwing squad with 2 LC and 3 TH+SS and a Cyclone missile Launcher

Fast Attack: Ravenwing Attack Squadron Bike Squad with bikesx6 with 2 meltaguns and an AB with MM

Elites:Deathwing squad with 2 LC and 3 TH+SS

Heavy: Pred with Twin-Linked Lascannon and Lascannon Spons

Heavy: Vindicator

 

Well I like this list but I think mobility is key in 5th edi. I know that you have mentioned already to replace a tactical with rhinos and so on. I have already thought for a similar list but it lacks on the flexibility in my point of view.

 

130 Belial

305 Deathwing Command (AC, 1xCF, Apothecary, Standard Bearer)

180 Tactical Squad (Meltagun, Razorback, TLLC)

180 Tactical Squad (Meltagun, Razorback, TLLC)

175 Tactical Squad (Flamer, Razorback, TLLC)

175 Tactical Squad (Flamer, Razorback, TLLC)

190 Ravenwing Attack Squad (2 Meltaguns, Multi-Melta Attack Bike)

135 Dreadnought (TLAC, ML)

135 Dreadnought (TLAC, ML)

150 Devastators (3 Missile Launchers)

150 Devastators (3 Missile Launchers)

I have also tried out to use a lot of small Tac. Squad units and yeah, it works great. But, I have played with this against the C:CD which includes a 8 juggernauts strong unit with 2 greater daemons and they have wiped me out. Well, the problem was that a TLLC shoot will by fine but is useless against a big juggernaut unit and small units haven't a good staying power since the are disembarked. Beside of that, I like this list too. Personal I wouldn't use the Devas. because they are too static.

 

Thanks for the sample list

One thing that all the list shows here is that lots of points in troop choices spent(beside of DW and or RW). That is one of my concern if I create a list. To spent lot of points in units which aren't able to kill something aren't good invested I think. That has brought me to rethink my army list create philosophy because in previous army list i have also use a lot of tactical squads. The effect was that I haven't points left for the real dangerous staff.

If I write a list now I try to include:

- spam AP2 /AP1 weapons

- mobility (units which are able to move at least 6 inches and are able to shoot (best will be units that are able to move, shoot and can assault in one turn)

- a decent cc ability in ever unit in my and at least one strong cc unit

- many different units to overwhelm the opponents anti-infantry and anti-vehicle capacity

- to have the right tool for the needed job (i.e. counter the thread as I have asked for)

- units with a good survivability and staying power

- units which brings me a advantage in rules, point costs and/or uniqueness

 

I think this are the criteria which a army has to fulfill to be competitive.

 

However I hope that more inputs will come here because any comment will be helpful for me. :)

 

Regards

Maxamato

[RayJ]

The goal with the list above is to not get out of the transport unless necessary. Also, with the devastators, razorbacks, and dreads all firing at the khorne unit, they will still feel the hurt. Don't be afraid to move full speed without shooting with some of your units, as most daemon units have no shooting and MUST get into close combat to do anything.

 

If he is focused on taking our your devastators, he's leaving your troops alone. That should help you win the game. Also, don't be afraid to throw a unit or two at him as bait to draw him away from your forces. Most of the time you don't want to assault with your bait unit, as they will die too quickly. You want the bait to both make the enemy move away from your location on the board and spend time not dealing with the core of your army.

 

With that in mind, you can start using the rest of your army to pick his units apart. Being able to adapt how you play a list against each opponent without modifying the list is crucial to becoming a great general.

[Maxamato]

I understand your points (and I'm aware that a good general is able to adapt his list and play to the opponent :) ) but it has at least two issues, based on my experience:

1. The big juggernaut unit is able to multiple charge you because they have a big footprint and then they destroy anything on there way. this multiple charge will be supported often from the other demon army elements and eat the content. You can't spread out so far because then you are losing the support each other effect.

2. such big juggernaut unit soaks up a lot of fire power. You can destroy them fast enough. and if you concentrate the fire on them, means that the other ugly demon stuff will be unaffected.

 

That was the problem what I had last in the last game. :/

[Tanhausen]

I share your pain Maxamato.

 

The one and single list I simply CAN'T handle is Daemons.

 

He plays this list:

 

1 x Tzeench (the big bird, which allows invulrable armour re-rolls... plus fires 2 powers a turn!)

1 x DP with wings

1 x Big Daemon thing with WS10 (or something like that)

1 x 5 juggies

1 x 12 or so nurgles with icon

2 x 12 or so blood drinkers (energy weapons)

1 x 6 incenerators (negates armour saves)

 

If you concentrate on the juggies, the 3 big guys eat you up.

 

If you focus on the nurgle icon, its T5 and FNP

 

If you focus on the big bird, the big daemons + juggies run over you.

 

To be honest, besides psichological warfare and insults (but not too loud... the guys is quite big ^_^) are my only weapons xD

[Grand Master Springemann]

Well unfortunately I have yet to face a daemon army so I am going to have to ask a stupid question but what are the stats of a Juggernaut. I might be able to help you further if I was more informed.

[Tanhausen]

The problem with Daemons is that:

 

- They are inmune to instant death (thanks Maxamato :unsure: )

- They don't have armour saves... its all ++

- Its an all Deep Striking systems, using icons as beacons.

 

They divide the list and roll, 3+ the half they wanted comes in, 1-2 the other half. Then it goes by reserves just like DW.

 

Khorne Juggernauts stand in a big base (not sure if 40 or 60mm) and have something like:

 

- move 30 cm, charge 15 cm

- WS5 S5 T5 2 wounds, Initiative 4 I believe. Not usre, but I think 2 attacks.

- Furious charge (or however its called in english: +1S +1 Initiative)

- 4++ save

 

So even in a unit of 5, they can easily take up a front of 30 cm and when assaulting (Ini 6, S6) its 3+2+ and your down to invulnerables.

 

Vs. Terminators, when they charge (15 attacks) it means you have to save 8 ++ saves... almost 2 with each! And thats before you even get a chance to hit back.

[Grand Master Springemann]

Well there is no way of getting around invun saves and it is only a 4+. I know it is a pain but you just have to keep shooting at them and if need b charge them instead to rob them of the extra attack and furious charge bonus. We really do not have a good choice against a list like this. do they have like a phase out type of rule? if so try to get them below that number.

[Tanhausen]

Negative, no phasing out.

 

Saturation is the only way... and since all saves are invulnerable, you can rely on convetional weapons.

 

The player actually acknowledges that when he suffers most is vs IG, Orks and Nids... makes sense. But again, same goes for any list! If you receive say 54 attacks from a nob biker and assault mob, sheer number is bound to deliver wounds that he will simply not save... even if its 5+5+2+, you'll deal 2 wounds... hey, thats 1 model less! xDDDDD

 

To take 5 models down with bolters, you'd need 70 shots! So if you devote 4!! full tacticals Mathhammer says you should rapid fire it to death... at 30 cm... you better wipe it out, else you're in for some pain.

 

To be honest, I think they are probably the toughest list around, harder even than the Long Fang spam list. 3 MC with wings that can take care of 1 tank per turn... that means 3 tanks blown up per turn.

 

The only "shortness" it has is no long range high S shots.

[breng77]

Just a tip for how to handle Juggernauts, Dreads will do the job especially if you can get the charge (venerable helps if they get the charge) While you won't kill them if they don't charge you they cannot hurt you and you can hold them there for the whole game (I've done this even when they were accompanied by a herald who was S 6).

[Tanhausen]

Hadn't thought of that one... thanks for the tip breng77.

 

I promise, this is the single unit I most hate of all the game.

[Maxamato]

Just a tip for how to handle Juggernauts, Dreads will do the job especially if you can get the charge (venerable helps if they get the charge) While you won't kill them if they don't charge you they cannot hurt you and you can hold them there for the whole game (I've done this even when they were accompanied by a herald who was S 6).

Yeah, that is a good hint!

 

A Ven. Dread is one of my favorite unit’s choices because he fulfills a lot of my army list creation criteria’s.

 

To stop with an i.e. 145pts Dread an approximate 300 to 400 pts units will be great.

I will try this next time.

 

Thanks for that breng77.

 

Regards

Maxamato

[breng77]

Yeah I played against I think 30 blood crushers at ardboyz (in one game) and kept 10 tied up from turn 2 on (for 6 turns) and kept another 10 tied up until my termis could finish them off (Belial + command squad + GK GM can do plenty of damage on the charge I think the Gm killed 4 or 5)

[Maxamato]

Well done.

 

I have faced at my last tourney following list:

1x Greater deamon of khorme

1x Greater deamon of nurgle

2x 8 juggernauts

1x 6 beast of slanaesh ( I don't no the english word for that, this are an elite choices)

1x 9 nurgle demons

2 x 7 nurgle demons

1x 3 nurgling bases

that was a 1750 pts list.

 

Very tough and I could managed a minor lose because the game ended in turn 5 :)

 

So this list for example has given me to think, how as a DA can I counter respectively defeat that.

 

Regards

Maxamato

[breng77]

It really depends on your list. DW have a tough time against daemons, mostly because we are paying for things like power fists and Power weapons, that don't mean much against Daemons, who get there save regardless.

[Tanhausen]

MC are hard to take down by DW because they hit first and have the ++ save so... I'd say gun-line them. Just mass bolter shots... it should eventually go down.

 

As for the 3 nurgle options... they have T5, FNP and deny +1 attack when carged... but they have S3 ;) So charge! Even if you don't get extra attacks, the claws and sarge will punish them quite bit (FNP does not work vs energy weapons).

 

Juggies... we already know how to deal with them :)