Tactical advice needed

[Grand Master Raziel]

During the tournaments I face often threats which were very difficult for me to handle, like:

- 5 to 10 TH/SS terminator squads

- 6-8 juggernauts of Khorne squads

- 2 or more MC’s in opponents list

- Multiple LR Lists or AV14 vehicles

- 3x3 obliterator lists

- Artillery, like a manticore, or units which were staying deep in the opponent deployment zone

 

Well, TH/SS Termies and Khorne Juggs present fairly similar challenges - they're both hard-hitting assault units that are hellaciously hard to kill - Termies because of the storm shields, Juggs because they're T5 W2 3+/5++ EW. The upside is that both units are fairly slow. In the case of the Termies, if you can slag their LR early, you can afford to ignore them for most of the game - maybe try and bait them away with something. The Juggs are a little harder to ignore, because they're probably DSing right on top of you, and are going to run the turn they come in to space out. If you happen to have a Dreadnought, you can tarpit them like breng77 suggested, but I'd expect your opponent to send in a Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon to rip apart the Dread and turn them loose. I'd say just use superior mobility to get the heck away from them and concentrate your efforts on softer targets, as the Juggs will absorb a ton of firepower.

 

As for MCs, depends on the MCs. There's a world of difference between a Daemon Prince and a Wraithlord. In general, I'd say Deathwing are a fairly reliable counter to most MCs. Have a wide variety of capabilities at your disposal and know what you're facing. MCs in the T5/T6 range with 3+ saves and 3-4 wounds can be pretty reliably taken down with torrents of fire, if you've got the firepower to bring to bear. T7+ MCs, MCs with more than W4, and/or MCs with 2+ saves need more specialized measures to counter - lascannons, plasma, massed melta, assault by units with multiple power fist equivalents - that kind of thing. Knowing what you're up against will help you a lot. For instance, you really don't want to have to take on a Trygon in close combat if you can help it, but a fresh 10-man Tac Squad with a power fist stands a pretty good chance of beating a Malwoc or a Tervigon in close combat. Speaking of power fists, shell out to have them everywhere. A Tac Squad with a PF might not beat a fresh Hive Tyrant, but will probably put a wound or two on it, giving the next squad that has to face it a better chance. Plus, sometimes you can beat things down by having multiple fist-armed squads dogpile onto them.

 

Multiple AV14 vehicles, I don't generally have a lot of problems with, because I generally run with a lot of high-speed melta. Heavy Deathwing shouldn't have a huge problem either. Pop a chainfist or two in every DW Squad. Take note that the sergeant of a DW Squad can buy a chainfist for the same price as a squaddie. Vanilla SM players can't do that, and the chainfist is hella more valulable than the default power sword.

 

Speaking of Deathwing Squads, I think it's a mistake to go crazy with the assault Termies in the squads. I find the stock Termie Squad with PFs, SBs, and an assault cannon to be very valuable, a versatile, hard-hitting unit I can rely on to do a lot of damage every game I play. When fielding a single squad, I'm seriously considering going all-fists (chainfist for the sarge). Their firepower is valuable, especially as they can move and maintain their full radius of effect for shooting, and in assault they hit like a ton of bricks.

 

Anyhow, Oblits are kind of a pain in the butt, because opponents don't really have much reason to send them close to our stuff and the only thing that can reliably pop them from a good distance are lascannons. Assaulting them is even a thorny prospect, because they have PFs, too. Assaulting them with Termies is probably your best bet. Statistically speaking, you should expect to lose 2-3 Termies, but will kill 3 Oblits in a single round of combat (assuming largely PF armament for the Termies). With all L-claws, if your Termies charge, you'll probably kill 2 Oblits and one will get to swing back, probably killing one Termie. With any luck, the Oblit will die to No Retreat, or almost certainly be finished off the subsequent turn of combat. If charged by the Oblits, you'll probably (but not certainly) kill 2 before they swing, assuming you're working with the full squad (which might be a pretty reckless assumption, considering what Oblits do).

 

As for Artillery/units that stay deep in the opponent's zone, it depends on what you've got. Termies can DS in at them, but you want to be careful not to send them in on a suicide mission. I generally don't have much problem with that kind of thing, but I generally run very high-mobility lists and play very aggressively, so I almost always wind up playing in my opponent's deployment zone (or at least on his half of the table).

 

 

I want to ask you how we, as DA, can counter these threats best. Do you have any ideas? I.e are three troop choices in a 2000pts. All-comers list enough in general?

 

I'd say no, but it depends on the Troops. I run 3 Troops choices in my typical 1500pt lists, but two of them are Ravenwing Attack Squadrons with ABs, so even without combat squadding we're talking about 5 scoring units, 4 of them being very fast (the other is a Rhino-mounted Tac Squad). At 1750pts, I add another Rhino-mounted Tac Squad (exactly 250pts with what I field), but I'd find that sufficient for 2000pts. If you're running 2000pts of battle company DAs and Deathwing, I'd say you want at least 5 Troops choices, maybe 6, with the understanding that 2-3 of them will be Terminator Squads, probably getting the most dangerous tasks to accomplish most of the time.

[HsojVvad]

- move 30 cm, charge 15 cm

So even in a unit of 5, they can easily take up a front of 30 cm and when assaulting (Ini 6, S6) its 3+2+ and your down to invulnerables.

I never ever herd of anything moving in cm in 40K. Why would you use cm and not inches?

[Maxamato]

Thanks to all for the feedback.

 

@GM Raziel!

Many thanks for your in deep answer. Very informative.

I have few question do you:

Which list you normally play? Because you write that you play a very mobile list. Is it pure RW? Can you probably show an example list?

An other question will be based on your statement

If you're running 2000pts of battle company DAs and Deathwing, I'd say you want at least 5 Troops choices, maybe 6, with the understanding that 2-3 of them will be Terminator Squads, probably getting the most dangerous tasks to accomplish most of the time.

Why? I think to spend to many points in Tacticals will decrease my overall army killing power.

Actual I prepare a 2000 pts. DW-GW list. In this list I plan to use 2 DW squads (one shooty and one cc oriented) and one Tactical squad.

 

Regards

Maxamato

[pueriexdeus]

- move 30 cm, charge 15 cm

So even in a unit of 5, they can easily take up a front of 30 cm and when assaulting (Ini 6, S6) its 3+2+ and your down to invulnerables.

I never ever herd of anything moving in cm in 40K. Why would you use cm and not inches?

 

Inches = USA, CM = the rest of the world.

[HsojVvad]

I thought everyone in the world used inches for 40K. I know the rest of the world uses Metric in real life, but still inches for 40K.

[Tanhausen]

In this forum I do try to talk in inches.. but sometimes it slips by :lol:

 

Just for the record, in WFH the'be changed to Movement Units that translate to... inches! Wow, I'd never see that coming xDDD

 

Edit: BTW, inches not only US, UK also ;) And I guess any "ex-brit" colonies such as Australia and similar, isn't it? I suppose the European prints (Spanish, Italian, German and French) are the only in cm.

[HsojVvad]

Us Canadians offically use the metric system, UNLESS you are over 45 wich many refues to use metric and talk everything in the imperial system. :lol:

[Grand Master Raziel]

Thanks to all for the feedback.

 

@GM Raziel!

Many thanks for your in deep answer. Very informative.

I have few question do you:

Which list you normally play? Because you write that you play a very mobile list. Is it pure RW? Can you probably show an example list?

 

Be happy to. Here's my current 1500pt list:

 

Sammael on his jetbike (well, counts as him, anyway - see my avatar)

Deathwing Terminator Squad: 2 chainfists (one on the sergeant), 1 Terminator wt 2xLCs, assault cannon

Ravenwing Attack Squadron: Sgt wt power weapon, 2xflamers

Attack Bike wt multimelta

Ravenwing Attack Squadron: Sgt wt power weapon, 2xmeltas

Attack Bike wt multimelta

Tac Squad: Sgt wt power fist, 9 Marines, meltagun, plasma cannon

Rhino

Predator: autocannon turret, heavy bolter sponsons

Predator: autocannon turret, heavy bolter sponsons

 

So, not pure RW, but a heavy contingent. I won't claim I've won any big tournaments with this list, but it's performed reasonably well for me in small ones. To bulk it up to 1750pts, I add a second Tac Squad with Rhino, same as the first, and to go to 2000 I add 3 Land Speeders with multimeltas and heavy flamers, plus a smattering of upgrades to use up that last 25pts.

 

An other question will be based on your statement

If you're running 2000pts of battle company DAs and Deathwing, I'd say you want at least 5 Troops choices, maybe 6, with the understanding that 2-3 of them will be Terminator Squads, probably getting the most dangerous tasks to accomplish most of the time.

Why? I think to spend to many points in Tacticals will decrease my overall army killing power.

Actual I prepare a 2000 pts. DW-GW list. In this list I plan to use 2 DW squads (one shooty and one cc oriented) and one Tactical squad.

 

Having more Tac Squads doesn't diminish killing power, it just puts it in the Troops category. I find Tac Squads to be solid performers. It's all in how you build them. Rhinos are a must for tactical mobility. Power fists are a must as a means of dealing with walkers, MCs, and beating vehicles to scrap. The plasma cannon is a must because it's the best anti-infantry weapon Space Marines can field, so it synergises well with bolter fire when you stop to shoot it. The meltagun you can exchange for a flamer, depending on what the rest of your list has. The previous incarnation of this list had a MMHF Land Speeder and a TLLC+2HB Pred, but I wasn't happy with the Pred because it was always dying early in the game. I reasoned having two Preds would help diffuse opposing anti-armor firepower, so the Speeder and Pred Annihilator got taken out and replaced with a pair of dakka Preds. I haven't once regretted the switch, but I was concerned about losing two major anti-armor weapons, so the Tac Squad's flamer got changed to a meltagun. Meltas synergise well with power fists and krak grenades (should the melta miss, you can always charge the vehicle), whereas flamers synergize well with bolter fire or a pre-charge bolt pistol volley. I'd use at least 2 Tac Squads. Trust me, they're valuable units.

[breng77]

@ Raziel I have actually played against you the past 2 years at Connecticon:).

 

As for someone bringing a Daemon prince or greater daemon to help it depends on how many Blood crushers there are as they have to pile in to base to base contact with the Dread as much as possible and if they surround him the MC cannot get in for the save. I have also had venerable dreads, keep daemon princes occupied for 3+ turns before, with some luck you can stay in combat for a long time.

[Maxamato]

Hi GM Raziel!

 

Thanks for your information! :D

 

Other questions are coming into my mind and I hope you can help here too:

- How do you use your tactical squads? Aggressive or more for defensive purpose?

- Why do you mean for a DW-DA list that we should have 5 to 6 scoring units? (this question is related to the statement for GM Raziel in his post from: Aug. 07, 2010. for a 2000 pts. list)

 

I feel more and more that I don't use the Tacticals for full effect. Most of the time I use my tacticals for home objective(s) guards. Specially if I give them a heavy weapon. I give the Rhinos more for survivability reason as for mobility.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Regards

Maxamato

 

Edit: Bracket added

[Grand Master Springemann]

Well Maxamato

 

In my usual list I run with four tact squads and I tend to use my as both aggressive and defensive because I tend to combat squad them most of the time and the SGT, special weapon, and normal bolters ride in the rhino while the heavy weapon with the rest of the squad take up fire positions. I would say the reason why you dont feel that you get full effect of the tact squads because either A) you haven't used them that much or B ) When you do use them you do not try different things with them. It is not a bad thing either way but I have found out that if you use three or more tact squads they tend to do most of the killing. With the list I run everything else supports my tacts and this has work very well for me. My record isn't perfect but I am currently on a winning streak of 6+ games. This includes armies like SW, BA and tank heavy guard.

[Maxamato]

Hi GM Springemann!

 

Well that’s funny because I use Tacticals very often but I have stopped to use 10 men and have switched to 5 men with Razorback with TLLC. I think that option b will be the reason.

 

 

Do you use the list, which you have posted here in this thread? If not, is it possible to show it? It is for me easier to understand because the rest of an army is also so important to bring units to full effect.

 

Also, thanks to your informative replies. :D

 

Regards

Maxamato

[Grand Master Springemann]

The list is not posted here but here it is.

 

HQ: Interrogator Chaplain with bolt pistol and corzius

Troops: Tactical Squad of ten with lascannon, flamer, and Rhino. SGT with bolt pistol and PW

Troops: Tactical Squad of ten with PC, flamer, and Rhino. SGT with bolt pistol and PW

Troops: Tactical Squad of ten with PC, flamer, and Rhino. SGT with bolt pistol and PW

Troops: Tactical Squad of five with Plasmagun, and Razorback with TLLC. SGT with bolt pistol and PW

Fast Attack: RAS of Three with 2Xmeltaguns

Fast Attack: Land speeder with Assault Cannon and Heavy bolter

Fast Attack: Land speeder with Assault Cannon and Heavy bolter

Elites: Dread with Assault Cannon and CCW with storm bolter

Elites: Dread with Assault Cannon and CCW with storm bolter

Heavy: Pred with Autocannon and Heavy bolters

Heavy: Vindicator

[Grand Master Raziel]

@breng77: I figured that was you! Breng77 and I were both contenders for first place at this year's ConnectiCon's 40K weekend league, and wound up facing each other in the final game! In order to get first place, breng77 had to beat me. In order for me to get first place, I had to beat breng77, and the Blood Angels player had to beat the Eldar player that beat me but breng77 defeated. In order for the Eldar player to take first, he had to win and I had to win. So, for the honor of the parent Chapter, I...gave breng the best game I could, coming down to a nailbiter finish where he was able to secure the win in the last turn. If any of you are interested in reading about the action, check out this thread on Warseer, with pictures!

 

Anyhow, regarding tying up Juggs with a Dread, you've got a point, plus there's no reason to simply allow an MCs to waltz into the combat like that. If you see them coming, counter with something. Terminators would be my first choice.

 

As far as tying up a DP with a Dread goes, I'm glad it worked out for you, but I wouldn't count on that working on a regular basis, even with a Venerable Dread. Monstrous Creatures are just too likely to be able to peel open a Dreadnought for my tastes.

 

@Maxamoto: I tend to use everything I have pretty aggressively, including my Tac Squads. If I have to babysit a home objective, I'll usually just leave a (scoring) Attack Bike sitting on it. Or, I'll place the objective in a spot from where a Tac Squad can provide fire support, which means placing the objective marker farther forward than most people would expect. Armies with scoring Ravenwing elements are at a big advantage in objective-grabbing missions, because you just need to be able to claim one objective and contest all the others, and no one else has 50pt scoring units that can move 24" in a single turn! I will admit, if I have a fault as a 40K player, it's that I tend to be too aggressive. Usually it works for me - I can't tell you how many games I've wound up fighting in my opponent's deployment zone - but there are times when it bites me in the ass, too.

 

@Grand Master Springeman: How's that list work for you? Maxamoto, looking at GMS's list, I'd wager he plays a very shooty game, relying on firepower to deal with most threats, with his Tactical Combat Squads largely mopping things up, maybe putting the torch to units with those pesky cover save bonuses. Also, the Combat Squads aren't likely to survive being charged by anything really nasty, which in this case is desirable, because it doesn't afford an opponent's units protection from being shot at on GMS's turns.

[Grand Master Springemann]

@Grand Master Raziel Yes I tend to sit back and shoot most of the threats. I have found out that with my landspeeders armed like they are they tend to be drop down on the opponents theat list which works in my favor. MY combat squads that ride deal mopping up or I will throw them at an enemy to buy me a turn or two to reposition my firebase out of harms way. I just loved how this list worked on the BA player I played because I baited him in to my killing ground with one squad which he took out in his assault. Said squad was Dante and I believe his special squad it had the angel wings can't remember the name, anyway that Dante's squad ended up with taking both PC shots with bolters from the rest of the squad and both of my dreads before mopping them up with my dreads in assault he was just a little upset. The squad and Dante cost him like 600 or 700 pts in a 1850 list.

[breng77]

@ GM Raziel I have tied up DPs with Venerable Dreads a few times (have also managed to tie up Nob Bikers for 4 turns), the key is several fold, one you need to have venerable, to keep the damage rolls from killing you early, 2 Psychic hoods help (if they have warp time), and last you need some luck. But on a charge a DP without warp time will hit you about 3 times, and pen probably 2 of those (odds are like 60%) Of that he only has a 33% chance to destroy the Dread, and with rerolls that is even less.

 

Nice write up of CTCON on warseer, I don't frequent the forum there so I had never seen it. A very thorough recap of our game. To answer why I chose to defend, my rationale was as follows. 1.) Use my deployment to push you back as far as possible. (though with both of us having scout and me scouting first it did not work quite as well as I had hoped) 2.) Secure last turn so I would have a chance to last second objective grab, had I gone first, unless things were very different, I would have lost that game, I would have had to bring my lone attack bike out onto that objective, and hope you shot really poorly, going last I was pretty sure I would at least end up with a draw (and thanks to some luck on my behalf on the damage chart I got the win.)

 

Things I have learned playing, MSU bikes so far is that I cannot win the assualt...ever (Except against Tau, and maybe guard), no matter how many bikes I bring into an assault I just don't cause enough wounds.

 

Land Speeders were really key to my army they are the best last turn contesting things in the Space marine arsenal.

[Tanhausen]

Quick thoughts:

 

- Tying up a MC with a vehicle... venerable or not...very risky. And usually the DP goes for some 100 points and our dread at 150ish... not the best deal. I agree terminators are a better option, but TH is a must, since DP has a nice Ini 4... I really struggle with them. And when they come in pairs/triples... :(

 

- What did MSU mean again?

 

- Speeders are a beauty... and Sammael for President! :D

 

- I'm testing a 2 vindicator list now... and so far, it works quite decently!

[breng77]

MSu = multiple small units

 

When I think DP I usually mean CSM which run more than a dread in most cases.

[Tanhausen]

When I think DP its Daemons.

 

Anyhow, we really don't have that many options to deal with them: either go for your option of a ven dread or for a hammenator unit (which I don't feel for that much, specially since they usually require a LR to be delivered and end up being munched up due to their Ini 1 thanks to our 4++).

[Grand Master Springemann]

We never really had anything to go toe to toe with a DP. You might want to try a Librarian in TDA with a force weapon with a TH/SS DW squad here he has to choose between the two. But even then it is not a whole lot better.

[Master Toddius]

On the subject of demon/cc armies:

You know whats the best anti-demon army in 40k IMO? Fast Attack bike/jet-bike armies. I don't even pull the RW out to battle against some of my friends best demon armies because its a near no win scenario for them. I've played 10 or so games against demon armies (and some really cheesey lists) with my RW and lossed once. Probable 6 out of the 10 games were even remotely close.

 

Still waiting to see someone try out the 2000pt C:SM bike/speeder army I talked about a year or so ago. WS bike armies can do it better than RW. In my opinion its a tournament crushing army.

 

I would focus on fast attack elements in a mixed wing list. Doesn't matter as much if they can deep strike thier whole list on you. Doesn't matter as much if they have fleet of foot or supercharged vehicles...

 

Just FYI. :)

[breng77]

I actually disagree with the thought that C:SM bike armies are better than RW armies, they are just different. C:Sm bikes are better in the assault and can take larger squads, but RW are Fearless (which on small squads is a blessing), do shooting better IMO, and can, and often do, field more scoring units (C:SM bikes have to be 5 strong to be scoring). Also, Scout is powerful for the Ravenwing, with the number of MM Ab we can take you can have 6-9 Multimeltas in Melta range on turn one if you go first.

[Master Toddius]

I'll start a thread on the topic and when i have some time and we can compare the two.

[Maxamato]

Hi All!

 

Thanks for the replies so far! The discussion helps me a lot and here are really good points.

 

The list is not posted here but here it is.

 

HQ: Interrogator Chaplain with bolt pistol and corzius

Troops: Tactical Squad of ten with lascannon, flamer, and Rhino. SGT with bolt pistol and PW

Troops: Tactical Squad of ten with PC, flamer, and Rhino. SGT with bolt pistol and PW

Troops: Tactical Squad of ten with PC, flamer, and Rhino. SGT with bolt pistol and PW

Troops: Tactical Squad of five with Plasmagun, and Razorback with TLLC. SGT with bolt pistol and PW

Fast Attack: RAS of Three with 2Xmeltaguns

Fast Attack: Land speeder with Assault Cannon and Heavy bolter

Fast Attack: Land speeder with Assault Cannon and Heavy bolter

Elites: Dread with Assault Cannon and CCW with storm bolter

Elites: Dread with Assault Cannon and CCW with storm bolter

Heavy: Pred with Autocannon and Heavy bolters

Heavy: Vindicator

Ah, I can remember me, that was the same list (or very similar) as in the Army review section, isn't it?

I have tired out a similar approach but the great success isn't coming. Probably I expect to much from the tactical squads. During the games I have thought: “Why I have spent so many points and they doesn't reach anything”. I think that my biggest issue with the Tactical squad is that they have a real flexibility. Example: If I have a squad with a heavy weapon, special weapon and a ccw mounted in a transport I can't decide what I should do. Should I stay and shoot with the heavy weapon but then are the other elements of the squad pointless or should I move forward, disembark and rapid fire against the foe but than I have bought the heavy weapon for nothing. This things are very difficult to handle for me. :(

 

Or, I'll place the objective in a spot from where a Tac Squad can provide fire support, which means placing the objective marker farther forward than most people would expect.

When you mention that you place the objective marker farther forward, what do you mean with that? Do you place the marker in the near of the opponents marker (12 inches) or do you place them anywhere? I ask because the placement of the marker will effect also you gameplay.

 

Maxamoto, looking at GMS's list, I'd wager he plays a very shooty game, relying on firepower to deal with most threats, with his Tactical Combat Squads largely mopping things up, maybe putting the torch to units with those pesky cover save bonuses. Also, the Combat Squads aren't likely to survive being charged by anything really nasty, which in this case is desirable, because it doesn't afford an opponent's units protection from being shot at on GMS's turns.

Yeah, I see your point here. As I have mention above, I have tried it out and I haven't any great success.

 

On the subject of demon/cc armies:

You know whats the best anti-demon army in 40k IMO? Fast Attack bike/jet-bike armies. I don't even pull the RW out to battle against some of my friends best demon armies because its a near no win scenario for them. I've played 10 or so games against demon armies (and some really cheesey lists) with my RW and lossed once. Probable 6 out of the 10 games were even remotely close.

 

Still waiting to see someone try out the 2000pt C:SM bike/speeder army I talked about a year or so ago. WS bike armies can do it better than RW. In my opinion its a tournament crushing army.

 

I would focus on fast attack elements in a mixed wing list. Doesn't matter as much if they can deep strike thier whole list on you. Doesn't matter as much if they have fleet of foot or supercharged vehicles...

 

Just FYI. :)

Interesting, can you explain it in more detail please? It isn't so clear for me what do you mean respectively how I should execute this.

 

However, in 3 weeks I will go to a 2 day tournament with 1750 pts. and some army choice restriction, like no more then 1 SC, no more than 2 times the same HQ, Elite, FA and HS and no more then 3 times the troop choice).

 

The army choice restriction, my mini collection and based on that what I have understood in these thread will bring me to this list:

Sammael on Jetbike (I have the model but I haven't used him, so I think it will be the time to try him out and to have a fast moving PC will be fine)

 

;)

2x Ven. Dreads with PC; DCCW and HF

1x DW Squad with 1x AC/ CF, 1x TH/SS, 1x LC, 1 xSB/PF and the Sarge with SB/PW

 

:teehee:

2x RAS: 3 biker with 2 MG and MMAB

1x 5 Marines with MG, PW mounted in a TLLC Razorback

1x 5 Marines with Flamer, PW mounted in a TLLC Razorback

1x 5 Marines with PG, PW mounted in a TLLC Razorback

 

This list brings me:

A couple of templates against hordes and also against heavy infantry (3PC, 2 HF, 1 AC, 1 Flamer)

A couple of high strength (an low AP) shoots against vehicles and MC (3 TLLC, 5 MG, 2 MM, 1 PG)

Some high strengths CCW, most of them placed in the DW squads and two are from the dreads.

The army as a whole is fast and very flexible but not too much flexible. Ok, the dreads aren’t that fast but they can provide some fire support and can be used as blockers.

And this list will cover the most threat that I can face during a tournament.

 

My concern with this list is that I'm lacking on enough high strength cc power and on a relatively low body count in every unit.

 

What do you say, does this list consider the content of these thread appropriate?

 

Comments are welcome!

 

Regards

Maxamto

[Grand Master Springemann]

The one thing I have found out with playing DA for anout ten years now is that if you want the hard hitting CC squads we have then you will have to give up firepower and vice versa. With tournament army lists you will never be able to come up with a lists that has a counter to every army but with the list you have posted just now is off to a good start I would run at least one ten man squad of tacts and you can still take the razorback but that will give you another heavy weapon and more bodies. You also gain another scoring unit (if you combat squad the ten man). If I was you playtest the list a couple times before you make a change and then determined how it played and start making small changes.