Lemartes as 5th Death Company member

[GlauG]

What it says in the title basically; Since you buy Lemartes as a member of the Death Company unit, can he count as the 5th model needed to purchase a DC Dread? That extra 20 pts can be life or death in a Tournament list. :D I mean, that's a melta for each of my RAS, for example...

[vahouth]

Since he is an upgrade character for the unit, I would say that he counts as the 5th model for the DC Dread.

[JamesI]

He is not of model type Death Company. I don't think he counts.

[Gumo9]

I'd wondered about this too for Death Company Tycho.

 

Using Army Builder, only actual Death Company Troops count towards the five for taking a DC Dread so this is (unfortunately) how I've been interpreting things.

 

G

[Mattsama]

Sadly no...

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

if DoM is a zoanthrope, i see no reason lemartes shouldn't count as a DC.

[Mattsama]

DoM is not a Zone, its the DoM... It may be a unique version of it, but it doesn't go into a Zone brood, and has its own name and statline...

[evileyevirtue]

Lemartes can only be bought as a part of a DC squad, and can only be a member of a DC squad. Therefore, he is a DC member. He is a special type of DC unit, but he is still a DC member.

[mustardParty]

Lemartes can only be bought as a part of a DC squad, and can only be a member of a DC squad. Therefore, he is a DC member. He is a special type of DC unit, but he is still a DC member.

 

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. The Death Company UNIT contains models of a type called Death Company and have their own stat line. The DC Unit can include Lemartes, and he has his own stat line called Lemartes, so he is a member of the DC unit, but NOT a Death Company type model.

 

Further, the DC Dread entry makes sure to specify that you have "five Death Company models" not five models in your Death Company unit. This is in contrast to the language used throughout the codex when the only requirement for an upgrade is that the unit be of a certain size without regard to the composition of the unit itself (tac squad upgrades and all that).

 

This is really similar to the HG debate - The Honor Guard is a unit, with models of two types, Honor Guard models and 1 Novitiate. If you upgrade one Honor Guard to a Blood Champion then it's a Blood Champion and not an Honor Guard anymore, though it is still in the same unit as Honor Guard models.

[GlauG]

Well, for my purposes, the Tournament Organiser has decreed that he does count. B) Though the Tourney FAQ has one or two things people might find similarly objectionable.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

Lemartes is Lemartes and is not called Death Company Member. People should not mix up fluff and rules. So Lemartes does not count for the 5 DC Troopers you need for the Dread. But more Power to you when the Tournament Organisation allows this.

[Jakobus]

I would say he does for two simple lines.

 

Line #1 from Lemartes "The Death Company can include Lemartes"

 

Line #2 from the DC Dread "You can include one DC Dread for every five Death Company models in your army"

 

Line #1 includes Lemartes in the Death Company and Line #2 looks at how many models are in the Death Company

[Mattsama]

I would say he does for two simple lines.

 

Line #1 from Lemartes "The Death Company can include Lemartes"

 

Line #2 from the DC Dread "You can include one DC Dread for every five Death Company models in your army"

 

Line #1 includes Lemartes in the Death Company and Line #2 looks at how many models are in the Death Company

 

By this crazy logic, would you say DC Tycho counts too??

[Jakobus]

No since DC Tycho is a DC Tycho model not a Death Company, and is excluded from the 0-1 Death Company rule - i.e. You can have DC Tycho and a Death Company without haven't to use the Astorath option

[Volcatus]

Another way of looking at it: Your Death Company can be 30 models, or 31 if you include Lemmy. In other words, he doesn't replace a DC model which means he's not a DC type. If you want the Dread, you have to have 5 DC or 5 DC plus Lemmy.

[Cain Tiberius Kondrad]

Also DC Tycho uses up an HQ slot regardless wether or not you play him as DC or not. He is also not an IC so technically he can't join a DC unit. But that's a whole other debate.

 

CTK

[Mattsama]

Another way of looking at it: Your Death Company can be 30 models, or 31 if you include Lemmy. In other words, he doesn't replace a DC model which means he's not a DC type. If you want the Dread, you have to have 5 DC or 5 DC plus Lemmy.

 

Thank you. This is the perfect example. He is not DC.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I consider him a member of the DC since he benefits from FNP plus he rerolls hits and wounds when charging. On top of that he is listed as an option in the DC entry under the Troops section. However if I field him I always take five DC Marines as well so there is no question in regards to fielding the DC dreadnaught.

 

0b :devil:

[daboarder]

DoM is not a Zone, its the DoM... It may be a unique version of it, but it doesn't go into a Zone brood, and has its own name and statline...

 

Not quite, the DoM IS a zoan in GW's own words and so is a Deathleaper a lictor or Swarmlord a Hive tyrant. Thats why the Swarmlord can join a unit of TG.

[evileyevirtue]

This is an interestingly worded issue. Other previous examples, like Lucas in C:SW, list the member as an upgrade. Here, Lemartes is an additional buy.

 

My personal opinion is that he should count as a DC member, simply because it brings the units DC model count up by one.

 

On the technical perspective, he's not an upgrade to an existing DC member, so he really only exists as an add on. I think it wasn't really thought through all that well, in this case. It makes it easier to make out the points because you don't have to figure he's an XXpt upgrade to the unit.

 

Now, that being said, you're buying a model for the DC, which can only be bought for DC. So he is a model in the DC that can only be bought for said unit. That makes him DC in a sense. However, it is true that it doesn't say that he is a DC, nor does it say he counts as a DC in relation to model count for any purposes. So, honestly it can go either way unless GW makes some sort of clarification. I mean, you can be an uber douche and say he doesn't count, but I think that's more along the lines of being rules-lawyer jerk. I would say this is one of those things you'd have to have a quick talk with your opponent about before hand in a friendly game. I'm sure that nobody who's looking for a casual pick up game would really care all that much since you're paying 130pts more for a DC squad member. In a tournament setting, this would have to be addressed beforehand with whomever runs the tournament.

 

As for Tycho, you can make the absurd absrtaction that yes, DC Tycho does count towards the limit because it says, plain as day he is Death Company Tycho. The requirement says to take the DC dread you need 5 DC models, not 5 models in the DC unit or 5 DC models in the DC unit. However, it seems like this was not how it was intended... but RAI be damned! We're talking about RAW here. DC Tycho clearly has DC in his title making him a DC model...it's in his title. So, if you really want to hold to Lemartes not counting, I hold you to Tycho counting.

[daboarder]

ultimately this and other similar arguments throughout our codex come down to what is "fun" to do, we could really spend all day one upping each other with conflicting precedents withing our codex so it should come down to, are you really going to refuse to play a guy because his list has lem, 4DC and a DCdread? because I for one am not.

[Rider-75]

srely if he is bought FOR the DC, then he is DC.

 

isn't this bordering on the "my daemons from codex:daemons aren't daemons because it doesn't say so in their unit entry" argument....

[Deus_Sanguinius]

I would say he does for two simple lines.

 

Line #1 from Lemartes "The Death Company can include Lemartes"

 

Line #2 from the DC Dread "You can include one DC Dread for every five Death Company models in your army"

 

Line #1 includes Lemartes in the Death Company and Line #2 looks at how many models are in the Death Company

 

Yeah, but Lemartes is no DC-Model. He is Lemartes. You can include him to the DC but he still is not a DC-Model. But nice try. <_<

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Those type of comments don't really help anyone and offer nothing to the discussion other than come across as trollish.

 

0b :wacko:

[Zealadin]

I'm sorry but anyone argueing that he is NOT Death Company is just being obtuse (or one of those annoying retarded rule wording lawyers).

He is PART of a Death Company unit, he can be purchased in no other way.

He has ALL the same DC special rules (Including BLACK RAGE!) (asif this doesn't give it away)

 

Also worth reading is his page in the codex, with his lore; lets take a minute to look at something: "Unlike the other warriors of the Death Company......."

 

You can't argue he isn't a 'death company model' you can't argue he isn't part of the unit, and its just illogical to try and maintain that he doesn't count towards the total needed to get a Dread. In fact if anything I'd even say that even DC Tycho counts towards it.