Going to Ground vs cover ignoring weaponry

[WarriorFish]

In a game last night a squad was denied both their armour save and cover from a barrage blast (from the centre) and it was argued that they could go to ground and still claim a 6+ save. I wasn't playing the game so it didn't get checked in the rulebook but I thought that it was a cover save so would in theory be ignored by wounds that ignore cover?

 

It's not the first time it has cropped up and probably won't be the last so I was hoping to get the final answer - can anyone clarify for me?

[Legatus]

'Going to Ground' provides a cover save, see page 24 in the rulebook. And weapons that ignore cover saves ignore cover saves.

[WarriorFish]

That is what I said but I was told it had been "checked" previously. I didn't insist like I should have because I had a vested interested in the game's result so didn't want to appear biased... I'll be reading that page in detail when I get home, thanks for the page pointer Legatus.

[Tanhausen]

Actually, going to ground does not grant a 6+ cover save.

 

It improves your cover save by +1.

 

Might not sound important... but it is :) A squad in cover goes from 4+ to 3+!

 

Hence, if the shot denies cover saves (a flamer for example)...you don't get any, whether improved or not.

[ShinyRhino]

Going to Ground in the open does indeed grant a 6+ cover save, that is negated by anything that ignores cover.

[Tanhausen]

Bad wording I guess:

 

It improves your cover save by +1, so if your in the open you go from - (nothing) to 6+.

 

What I meant that its not like an Iron Halo that grants (as opposed to improving) a 4++ :)

 

Thanks for the clarification ShinyRhino.

[WarriorFish]

Indeed, I mostly feel annoyed for not saying anything more even when I was sure I was right. If there's a lesson here it's 1) never trust an Eldar and 2) don't let yourself get brow beaten if you're sure they've made a mistake...

 

For the record he went on to get tabled turn 6, dropped to 3rd place leaving me to claim the winner's slot. The Emperor looks after his own :D Thanks for the replies Brothers :)

[Koremu]

Ahh, but in this case (i assume) the target squad were actually in the open, but has LOS cover (rather than area cover) from the firer, but didn't get cover because the barrage calculates cover as if the shot emanates from the centre of the barrage.

 

In this case, the unit CAN go to ground for a 6+ Cover Save. This is because most barrages do not negate cover, they just have different rules for determining the applicability of Cover.

 

A weapon will only actually ignore cover entirely if specifically noted to do so, or it is a teardrop template weapon.

[WarriorFish]

Hmm, sounds correct to me from what I remember (no rulebook at work, you may not be surprised to know) - I'll have to double check but I think you're right. Seems a bit stupid but that wouldn't be the first (or last) time a rule made no sense. Once again, thanks for the replies :lol:

[Tanhausen]

Does it happen to you guys that the more you play, the more rules you learn? Only a step at time... but man, some details end up giving or taking games!

 

That was a VERY nice fine-tune Koremu.

 

However, and I speak out of my memory since I don't have the BRB with me, you only have 3 kind of saves: armour, invulnerable and cover.

 

If you have LOS cover, that's a cover save which you could actually improve by going to ground and making it a 3+, right?

 

I understand the barrage LOS issue (that's something I ought to keep weel read!) so your point stands but... it just gave me the idea of improving cover save due to LOS :lol:

 

Edit: BTW, congrats on winning!

[Grey Mage]

Ahh, but in this case (i assume) the target squad were actually in the open, but has LOS cover (rather than area cover) from the firer, but didn't get cover because the barrage calculates cover as if the shot emanates from the centre of the barrage.

 

In this case, the unit CAN go to ground for a 6+ Cover Save. This is because most barrages do not negate cover, they just have different rules for determining the applicability of Cover.

 

A weapon will only actually ignore cover entirely if specifically noted to do so, or it is a teardrop template weapon.

Yep, because you can try to duck, but napalm just doesnt care.

[Ming]

I rarely use "go to ground" because I rarely get hit by AP3 S8+ templates, but this is a great reminder...Might help you save 1 or 2 blokes...you would have lost them anyways, so the slight chance of saving a marine is always worth it (even if you cannot do anything with him next turn...)

[WarriorFish]

It was really bugging me at work as I went straight home to bed after the game (we were drinking until the morning) so I had to know! I know the rules pretty well but of course there's always room for improvement and the more you know the faster the games :)

 

They still have to take a leadership test if they suffer enough casualties right? So would that mean as Marines we can Combat Tactics back and regroup normally?

[Seahawk]

Yes, you must take Morale tests as normal.

 

If you have LOS cover, that's a cover save which you could actually improve by going to ground and making it a 3+, right?

Depends on the type of cover. Going to ground improves any cover save you were already benefitting from. If it's a wall, then 3+. If it's a wire-mesh fence, 5+.

 

To expand on LOS cover and area cover, it simply goes along with the terrain. Area terrain is area cover, giving the benefit no matter where the dude is or where the shot comes from/lands. LOS terrain is like fences or walls; as long as the victim is partially obscured by the cover from the point of view of the firer they get cover. Barrage gets around that by it's special rules making its point of view originate from where it lands.

 

Again though, any shot that ignores cover completely through special rules totally negates all of the above.

[WarriorFish]

Nice, another use for Combat Tactics (if minor) ;) Many thanks for all the replies Brothers, I think cover saves must have been completely covered here, and concisely too!

[Zynk Kaladin]

Yep, because you can try to duck, but napalm just doesnt care.

 

I thought it was promethium ;)