Playing Dark Angels

[MolonLabe]

Loving the info RayJ!! Its really helped me develop a plan to revamp my decade old DA army with new effective toys. I agree that the LIbrarian is the least sexy HQ choice in the DA army, but I find myself taking him more often than not and here's why.... My gaming group is filled with Space Wolf and Eldar players (I see Eldrad on the table almost every weekend). I've been taking the Librarian for his full table psychic hood, which has saved or helped me in many situations. He does take a step back against the occasional Ork horde that I face, but the combi-flamer and hopefully decent hellfire abilities will make up some of his lack of fighting ability. What does everyone think about putting the LIbrarian in Termi-armor with a CC DW unit?

[RayJ]

I'm going to be covering a Librarian in TDA with the Deathwing. Short story: he's a good wound blocker (use him to save on plasma and occasionally lascannons and melta) and a good source for a second special weapon (I'd go with a combi-melta or plasma since he already has the flamer in hellfire

[Maxamato]

Regarding RAS:

 

Few question I may ask:

- Is it necessary to have in a RAS 6 bikers or are 3 bikers enough? I think that for the command squad you will need 6 bikers for more survivability (specially for the Apoth. upgrade and two special weapons) but for other RAS?

- I have read here in the forum that some people don't give any special weapons to the bike squad. I don't understand this because I think to equip a biker squad with two special weapons is one of there advantages. Hopefully anyone can explain the reason.

 

Regards

Maxamato

[RayJ]

Under most circumstances, and especially in Ravenwing-only army builds, running with smaller squads (3 bikes + attack bike) with special weapons is the way to go. When working with a command squad or flamers, going larger is a great idea. The idea is that you are capitalizing on mobile special weapons, and you build these units to support each other and the rest of your list. Give them the weapons the rest of your army lacks.

 

Another reason to go with large squad is if you want to maximize the number of independent land speeders (or add scoring land speeders to the list). I remember seeing the thread you mention where the author didn't use special weapons on any of his bikes. For most generals that is a very hard thing to work with, and I don't recommend it for most lists.

 

Choosing not to grab the special weapons does a couple of things for you though. You don't pay points for them first off, so you can include more units or upgrades elsewhere in the list. Also, it makes the squad a little easier to play in regards to target priority. Since that squad doesn't have the meltaguns, you aren't tempted to ignore the infantry squad that needs their attention even though a tank or transport is within striking distance.

 

By not including special weapons, they are also of less importance to your enemy, who will see 3-6 bolter bikes as nothing more than a nuisance to be dealt with after the rest of your army or if you give him a better opportunity. This will increase their survivability against some opponents and allow them to do their job of thinning out infantry much more reliably.

 

Mostly in that particular situation it came down to the list builder knowing exactly what he wanted out of them and how to apply them on the battlefield. People at that level of intimacy with the codex and our units probably won't get much benefit from this thread, but I'm sure we can help them in at least a couple of areas. I find that most players, even veterans, get stuck in the rut of only using a unit in 1 or 2 ways and don't truly understand everything a unit is capable of. I know I fall into that category with more than a few units. Writing out these explanations allows me to think about those posibilities and combine them with my experience, thus improving my own ability at the same time.

[Grubbslinger]

Quick question: You mentioned in the Ravenwing section that bikers and attack bikers are scoring regardless of being Fast Attack or Troops. Could you explain why this is so? I couldn't find anything in the codex stating that Ravenwing acted as scoring even in Fast Attack and was wondering where I missed it.

[RayJ]

This is covered on page 27 of the DA Codex in the little box titled "Ravenwing Combat Squads". The second paragraph of this box reads as follows:

 

Much like Combat squads, the squadron's Attack bike and Land Speeder are purchased together with the squadron and then deployed at the same time as the squadron's bikes, but from then on they always operate as completely independent scoring units of one model.

 

This paragraph has not been changed in any of the errata, giving Dark Angels the only vehicle scoring units in the game that I'm currently aware of.

[Firenze]

Excellent. I just might start making some bikes for my army. A couple of fully equipped squads should do.

 

This tactica is brilliant. Great job. Is it Ok if I submit a list and some strategies for it?

[RayJ]

Absolutely. It's gonna take me a long time to really fill this out on my own, and it'll only get better with input from multiple sources.

[Maxamato]

Sammael is widely regarded as the best HQ in the DA Codex, and for good reason.

Well, is this the case? If yes, why the people don't use him so often respectively you see him very rarely in any list. Is it only based on his point costs?

 

Regards

Maxamato

[RayJ]

There are a couple reasons, but cost is the primary reason I would guess. Ravenwing in general are the best part about our codex. Most people would tend to think it is Deathwing, and Deathwing is more appealing from a fluff standpoint for most players. People tend to play what they like whether it is effective or not. If you try to run both Sammael and Belial in the same list, you quickly start running out of points.

 

A lot of players would feel obligated to take Ravenwing with Sammael, and bikes are probably the hardest unit to play well in 5th edition. Small squads that die easily to anti-tank fire (and any terrain) don't make for newbie-friendly units.

[Tanhausen]

Agreed: RW is HARD to play... but not only due to bikes being small squads and "easy" to kill, but also because the "tanks" are AV10 skimmers that can deliver quite a punishment but go down WAY to easily.

 

Also, RW has an issue with KP... if you take a full RAS and combat squad it... that means 4 points! if you take 4 of those, 16! Usually, lists are running something like 10-12 points so that is another handicap they have.

 

However, RW is probably one of the most enjoyable armies due to its huge mobility and quite hard hitting fire power.

[Grand Master Springemann]

I am currently building my RW army and am looking forward to playing it and figuring out the ins and outs of ravenwing. But I would think that taking a 6 man bike squad would be the norm because it will allow you to break them up into smaller tankhunter groups if facing a tank heavy army. I have been using a small number of bikes in my current list to start familarlizing myself with what they can do and how to use them effectively.

[Tanhausen]

Actually, I'm thinking of the following RAS config:

 

6 bikers, sarge with PW, 2 meltas and 1 LS (MM/Hf or Typhoon as needed).

 

The tactica behind:

 

I'm not going to combat squad, because as I've stated at some other post, the last thing I want is "throwing" a 1 melta unit to pop a transport/tank... and missing.

 

I'd rather go for a double melta and the PW for the sarge to charge if needed (thinking of denying furious charge from the dislodged troops).

 

AB I'm not that fond of them, I'd rather go for LS (although they are more expensive).

 

And certainly, not a single PF for the sarge, since that hampers ini way too much. If I really had to, I'd drop some meltabombs.

 

Obviously, just my reflections :)

[breng77]

RW is a very strong build in the right hands, however it does have a big issue in KP missions due to the fact that you have to combat squad RAS. What I mean by this is that while you can keep the 6 bikes together (should you buy them) the Attack bike and speeder are always separate. I wish the rules had been written in such a way that at least the AB could stay with the bike squads if you wanted it to. That would be 6 less KP for me in KP missions. Alas, since that is not the case KP missions for me are one of 2 things 1.) Try to table the opponent, and take out their ability to kill you quickly. 2.) Try to stay off the table, and stay away by turbo boosting, and then try to kill a few things late in the game for the win. Neither is easy to do on a consistent basis.

[ZeussS]

Great info.

Have to agree that Sammael on bike or speed...ahem speeder is my fav choice. Another benefit to Sammael is the identical points cost for either setup, making it easy to swap HQ quickly for pick-up games depending on foe, changing the focus of your army without messing with the overall list :P

 

Look forward to reading the strategies. Keep it coming :mellow:

[RayJ]

Just a quick update (since it's been so long without an update), I am working on finishing up Deathwing today, and I've got Belial's entry up for critique!

[Russell's teapot]

Hello,

 

Just thought I'd run through this DeathWing advice, hope you don't mind...

 

This is from the perspective of playing pure DeathWing, not using DeathWing in a mixed force, so caveats will apply.

 

My comments are in red within the post below.

 

DA First Company (Deathwing)

Deathwing Terminator Squads

Like their Ravenwing brethren, the Deathwing are a versatile and effective fighting force. Out of the box, these guys look like a typical terminator squad with a points hike, but those points buy you one of the best special rules available.

 

Regardless of what others may tell you, Fearless is NOT a hindrance for Deathwing. If a situation comes up where Fearless causes you to take wounds, you were just about to be running your expensive termiantor squad off the board. Sticking around and taking some wounds lets them at least have a chance at doing something for the rest of the game. Anyone who says otherwise is just plain wrong (please, feel free to quote me on that) I agree with this for the most part. Never running away from being shot is a great asset. And should we lose combat, then we normally won't have any terminators left. In the few instances where we do lose combat & need to take wounds, there won't be that many & we have a 2+ armour save anyway...

 

Like any termintor squad, we can field a heavy flamer, cyclone, or assault cannon in our squads. Each of these weapons has a use in the current environment, and none of them is the automatic choice. When working with an assault plan in mind (and riding in a land raider) the Heavy Flamer is great for its low points cost and close-range support. Massively disagree with this. The assault cannon is flat out the best weapon for DeathWing. Beating the ML on armour penetration & kills in every circumstance where it is in range. The fact that the ML has a longer range is a non-point, as if you are shooting from there, then the rest of squad is out of range & you are losing a load of shooting which you should be utilising, or be capable of utilising. the order of weapon choice is:

Assault cannon

Heavy Flamer

Nothing

Cyclone

 

When facing off against Eldar, Tyranids, or anything you'd like to keep at a distance, the Cyclone Missile Launcher is your friend. That high-strength ap3 shot will do a lot of good if you can nail your target priority and hit the appropriate targets. This can sometimes be hard with only one member of the squad being able to fire over 24 inches. With. One. Shot. Who cares. Get the assault cannon in & suddenly you have 12 shots, 4 of which are almost as good as the ML, and 8 that can wound anything outside of a Wraithlord or C'tan (which you shouldn't be shooting anyway).

 

In the middle of the road, we have the assault cannon. This guy is a little weaker against MCs and Wave Serpents, but against most other armor it is better than the missile launcher. It's highr ate of fire and solid strength make it close to the heavy flamer in effectiveness per shot, but it will get to fire more with its 24 inches. Most people blindly pick this option for their squads. I won't deny it's a great support choice, but it isn't automatically the best choice for everyone. It's 'blindly picked' because it's the best all round weapon. By a mile.

 

At the end of the day, these options aren't what make the squad shine. Deathwing's ability to take Lightning Claws and Thunder Hammers in their squads gives this unit a tremendous amount of flexibility. Not having to pay for these weapon swaps makes them even better. This is definately, totally, untrue. More will follow below.

 

To round of this unit, you can still purchase a chain-fist for any model, easily allowing all 5 members of your squad to be equipped differently. When it comes to enemy shooting and opposing sergeants with powerfists and power weapons, this lets you get through with fewer casualties on those attacks that penetrate your 2+ armor save. Chainfists are a must buy. Remember the 5th ed meta? Melta rules ok. Chasinfists are DeathWing melta guns, they have the same range (6"), they have the same rule (double dice for pentration, at the same strength), but you get 3 shots with it (when you charge) if you are going to buy 1 thing in your DeathWing squad after you buy your assault cannon, make it this.

 

In most lists, I will run with a single lightning claw or thunder hammer model in the 5-man squad and make sure everyone else still has something to shoot with. Without the ability to hop in a rhino or fast movement, you'll want a squad able to be effective on the move. The lightnign claw model gives you the ability to get more strikes at initiative 4, while the Thunder Hammer gives you a unit better able to take power weapon hits in close combat. Recently I've been running the Thunder Hammer a lot more since 5th edition has a lot of close combat monsters. Don't mix your squads. If fact, you're better ff not mixing squads in the army. Either go assaulty, or go shooty. Shooty being marginally more effective & definately more flexible. Mixing squads reduces efficiency. Taking a TLC terminator in a shooty squad does next to nothing (one more attack), at a better initative - the initiative makes next to no odds as:

1) proper assault units will have a better I anyway

2) taking out 4 members of an not good assault unit doesn't remove the hidden fist, so no real gain

3) not good assault squads will have the same I, and therefore you don't remove any attacks from your opponent anyway

Adding TLCs to a squad toting 4 powerfists does not make it a more or less scary a proposition to charge or be charged by. Keep your shots up from 24" before you need to charge, or are charged, it's a far more eficient way of not being dead in combat.

 

The TH/SS is a joke. It's no better than powerfists, the +1 inbvulnerable isn't worth the loss of a stormbolter & you have a better tank killer in the chainfist anyway. It's better in one circumstance - making an MC strike at the same tiome as you in the second round of combat, for that unlikely option, you're better off not chosing it.

 

If riding in a crusader, running a squad with massive amounts of lightning claws and a heavy flamer can be really nice. You'll need those Frag Assault Launchers to get to use your initiative value for sure. I don't like this squad's inability to shoot, but I have seen some other people have success with it, especially when supported by an interrogator Chaplain (see below). It can work, but I prefer shooty, it's far more competative (which is important when the baseline of DeathWing is very uncompetative).

 

Regardless of whether it is fitted completely for assault or mixing it up, every squad should equip at least one chainfist. This little gem allows you to have little fear in combat against walkers and gives you a much greater ability at taking out armor in assault. Agree

 

The following squad is widely used as a typical Deathwing unit in current armies:

 

- Sergeant with Power Weapon & Storm Bolter

- Heavy Weapon with Powerfist

- Powerfist & Storm Bolter

- Chainfist & Storm Bolter

- Lightning Claws or Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

 

As you can see, this squad is able to support any unit, and will be effective both in the shooting phase and assault. These guys will be amazing in close combat against anything that is not a close-combat specialist. In some situations they will even hold their own against such units, though most of the time a squad with power weapons and assault grenades will put a huge amount of hurt on these guys. I'd definitely thin those guys out with a lot of shooting before facing them in assault. Drop the TLC/TH&SS option down to a SB&PF - you still have 4 sets for wound allocation & it improves the squads damage output no end. As an aside, the first member of your squad to die should be sarge, he's the least useful member. Don't be tempted to upgrade him for the chainfist, as you'll lose an armour save set & you'll lose something useful when you lose your first terminator.

 

Belial

The Grand Master of the Deathwing is the most customizable special character in any codex as far as I am aware. His three weapon configurations give him the means to combat almost any foe, provided you know what you are facing up front.

 

His standard wargear is actually the least-used of the three options. Today's tournament environment is very marine heavy, and even with a full 7 turns of shooting, the storm bolter should only expect to kill just under 2 space marines over the coarse of the game. It is much more likely that some turns Belial will not be shooting.

 

Likewise, a master-crafted power weapon isn't extremely strong against space marines. With 3 attacks on the profile, Belial will typically kill 1 space marine per round in close combat, and the extra hit-chance adds less than a 50% chance to kill a second one. Against xenos and guardsmen, however, the storm bolter and power weapon are much more effective, since they usually have lower toughness (for the power weapon) and weaker armor (for the storm bolter).

 

Instead of the default configuration, most players opt for a pair of lightning claws. This increases the number of attacks open to Belial while still using his higher than average leadership. Assuming two phases of close combat (with no charge bonuses) against space marines, the pair of lightning claws will kill 4 space marines. This is slightly better than the same combat with the power weapon and the storm bolter firing all game, and odds increase in favor of the lightning claws when a charge bonus is applied to the attacks. Math in this case supports the use of lightning claws over the default option for pure killing potential, so it's easy to see why most people run this setup. Agree with all the above

 

The third setup is the use of a thunder hammer and storm shield. While this strips Belial of his high initiative attacks, his killing potential remains very high versus other marines. Versus armor and monstrous creatures, his performance skyrockets, as he loses no effectiveness while the lower-strength counterparts quickly start lagging behind. The invulnerable save from the storm shield icnreases his durability against power weapons to compensate for his lower initiative. When fighting against tyranids and other multi-wound models you will find this configuration to be of great value. Given that we have 2 Characters in any given army hat can be I5, taking one out seems very silly & for no real benefit as the TH/SS varient does nothing that a standard terminator doesn't do. Give yor character something that the rest of your army can't.

 

Killing potential aside, there are even better reasons to run with Belial. He allows all Deathwing squads to be taken as troops, greatly opening up army building options. You can run all terminators, but you will typically have better luck by combining other elements of the army, as we will discuss below. As stated at the start, I'm assuming this is running from a pure DW pov.

One Deathwing squad is also capable of getting two different upgrade characters added to the squad. The first is the Apothecary. This model will be the single most valuable member of the average DA army. Provided with the ability to prevent a single wound each turn, he will quickly earn back the points spent on this upgrade and keep that unit running strong long after they should ahve died. The downside is this doesn't work against power weapons or isntant death weapons, and can't be used if the apothecary is locked in close combat.

 

Even close combat oriented squads will want this model, however. There will be multiple turns in the game where your close combat unit is standing in the field and in line of fire to your enemy, usually after having just killed an opposing unit. In these situations, the apothecary gets to do his job of saving wounds. The apothecary is useful, but there are better ways of keeping troops alive. If you have the points, take it, but in pure DeathWing it's not a given.

 

I find that when building the list it is best to make the apothecary also weild the heavy weapon for the squad. This will make it easier to keep both pieces of wargear in the fight. When the squad takes enough wounds that each member must make a save, always roll saves for the most valuable model first, and roll down in decreasing priority. This usually means the apothecary takes saves first and ICs take saves last. This ensures that the apothecary will save the most valuable member of your team. Note that when you have fewer wounds than models, ICs should always take a wound if they have more than one wound remaining 9and the attack doesn't cause instant death) and the apothecary should almost never take a wound. Again, the goal here is to keep your units stronger for longer. Totally disagree with apothecaries use. The apothecary should be separate from the heavy weapon. Most armies will be wrapping wounds on a terminator squad. Losing your heavy weapon & apothecary in a single unlucky dice roll & you'll be annoyed. If you are taking an apothecary go for:

Sargeant

SB&CF

SB&PF

SB&PF (apothecary)

AC&PF (or other heavy weapon)

More sets, if either heavy weapon or apothecary die, the squad still has a purpose, if both die, it's not your day.

 

On the ICs - they should always take the first non-ID wound rom shooting until they get to 1 wound. The IC is an apothecary for a squad that you can use every time you are shot at. If he fails a wound - who cares, he still fights to the same effect. Hence why the apothecary is optional - having 2 ICs means that you get more assaulty goodness & a free apothecary.

 

In addition, using cover properly (either terrain, or your own, or the enemy's tanks) will give a better return than having an apothecary.

 

The second upgrade option is the standard bearer. This guy functions just like the Ravenwing standard bearer, and thus is great for a unit heading for the front lines. Adding an extra attack to each member of the squad increases their kill potential by 3 or 4 marines a turn when attached to an IC.

 

Always remember that both upgrades must go in the same squad. I frequently run with both upgrades, but if points are short, the banner is almost always the first option I cut. Killing potential is nice, but surviving the enemy's return fire is gonna be the biggest problem, so the apothecary is much more important. I'd rather spend points on guns than gimmicks. Both the apothecary & the Standard Bearer (especialy the standard bearer) are gimmicks. I'll discuss with Chaplains below.

 

As if running Belial couldn't get any better he has one more benefit. He is super cheap on the points. All three options cost the same price, and your marine opponents can't field even a regular captain with his gear for the same price, much less get special rules and FOC manipulation! His downside, however, is that he is not extremely durable. Lack of Eternal Warrior and a moderate stat line means he doesn't keep up with the super-killy HQ choices of the new codices. Powerfists and Thunder Hammers also make extremely short work of him. For the price though, he is quite the bargain, even when running a force primarily consisting of battle company units. Agreed, Belail is utterly pathetic, it's a bonus if he ever kills anything, but for his points you get:

 

A free apothecary using his IC status

An I5 model that's dificult to get hold of in DW

5 attacks on the charge with lightning claws

Spare points to fill up on stuff because he's so cheap

A good laugh when he runs into combat, flails around like an incompetant and frighted guardsman, fails to wound anything and is splatted by said guardsman

 

I love Belail, I wouldn't change him for the world (unless he decided that he could find an Iron Halo hanging around somewhere for no extra points...)

 

Librarians

The Deathwing Librarian is a decent second choice for an HQ, but rarely fits the bill as a primary leader. Equipped with a storm bolter and force weapon, he is quite the bland choice at first. He does have some tactical options that make him useful for fielding against your opponents, however.

 

As covered previously, the Force Barrier psychic power is great for saving against deadly shots. When added to a Deathwing unit, he should typically be the target for lascannons, plasma, and melta shots unless you are extremely worried about instant death. Chances are high, however, that he will shrug off a single hihg-powered shot as if it were a gentle breeze.

 

Hellfire also gives the unit a second "heavy" weapon, which is something not possible with terminators any more at such small squad sizes (unless perhaps you are playing Black Templars). While the weapon itself is just as effective when it gets used as it is anywhere else in the army, terminators are notoriously slow once they hit the table. When not riding in a land raider, it is quite easy for the enemy to outmaneuver and make hellfire less of a threat. It is stillg reat for use when coming out of a land raider or on a deep strike, however.

 

Topping the librarian off with a combi-weapon is a great choice for a terminator squad. I much prefer the meltagun for getting into transports, but the plasma gun is great at rapid-fire range. A nice combi is detaching the librarian during the movement phase so that he can kill a transport and then the squad he was attached to can deal with the contents. Only do that if you need more firepower before the charge though, as the librarian is quite vulnerable when left on his own.

 

Perhaps the best use for him is to increase the durability of a troop Deathwing unit. Extra wounds and Force Barrier can make that troop unit last through just enough firepower to hold the objective at game's end. Combined with an apothecary you have an extremely durable scoring unit, though you are spending a lot fo points to do so. I've never been convinced by the librarian. If your meta has a lot of lash/BA spam, then he can be useful, otherwise the Chaplain is a far better option

 

Chaplains

Deathwing doesn't allow just any Chaplain into their service. Only Interrogator Chaplains have proven themselves worthy enough to assist in the hunt for the fallen. However, their skills make them a great force multiplier to a Deathwing squad.

 

Equipped with a power weapon and rosarius, the interrogator chaplain is just a little more durable than Belial without as many options. Like the Librarian, he comes with a Storm Bolter standard which can be upgraded to a combi-weapon. Again the meltagun is preferred, but I would almost never separate him from his unit as I would with the librarian. He lacks the psychic invulnerable save of Force Barrier and is much more effective at making the attached squad kill things faster.

 

Just like all Chaplains, Litanies of hate multiplies the killy factor of the attached unit. Honor of the Chapter doesn't see any use when attached to Dathwing 9as they are already fearless), but that's not a big deal. This guy is great as both a second HQ or Priamry. When runnign with Belial, it is recommended that he runs with the Deathwing Standard Bearer. Combining these two models gives you a truly scary melee unit.

 

When run as the only HQ or with someone else, it is still best to attach him to a Deathwing squad. These guys work well at counter-assault and harrassment, and make a great fire magnet. The Chaplain's 3 wounds give you enough buffer to ensure that he will cause trouble when the unit his melee. Under these circumstances you will want a mixed Deathwing squad so that you can deep strike in and still shoot. Since this unit is not scoring, you will not need to protect them with a land raider and can generally use those points for increasing your core's strength.

If you are charging a squad with a chaplain. It will be dead. If it isn't, then you are because you assaulted a unit that's far superior to you in assault & that's your own silly fault. You don't need a standard bearer - Chaplain provides this for free, an MC might kill 2-3 members of the squad (one of which is sarge, so we don't count him!), therefore your squad is still acting as if it was at full strength because of the chaplain & re-rolling misses. Adding a standard to this squad is over-amping it to the point where you are simpley guilding the lily.

 

Deep Striking

Coming Soon...

Work on the assumption that it is always a bad idea & you won't go far wrong. If you must do it, then DS somewhere safe at about 20" from the enemy & hope any scatter keeps you at 24".

 

Land Raiders:

If you are going mechanised, load up on LRCs, don't bother with Godhammers - they are fantasticly inferior. here's the lowdown (from here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php...ostcount=2537):

The synergy between LRCs and shooty squads is fairly obvious I think. Both fire 24". That in itself is enough I think, but I shall continue anyway . Here we go:

 

1) They both shoot 24": This means that you can keep your entire army together, focus fire, and protect your troops with your tanks, or tanks with your troops (depending on threats) whilst maintaining a 24" threat zone, and nothing gets left behind.

 

2) Troop movement: There are times when you simply need to get out of a situation & the LRCs allow you to load up an run for the hills should you need to. In addition, for your troops to be effective, they need to be within 24". Again the transport allows you to get to that area when the enemy refuses to come to you.

 

3) They're rock hard: Sometimes you are facing an army with so much plasma that you get a nose bleed. Got a Land Raider? Roll up, roll up, get inside, tickets are free & provide immunity from most weaponry on the 40k battlefield, invite your friends, there's room for more!

 

So point 2) Troop movement is probably where you are thinking ah-ha (no, not the band) then why not take a Godhammer (a Land Raider with Lascannons)? Here are the reasons why a Crusader is better than a Godhammer:

 

1) Killing stuff: The Crusader is simply better. At killing light troops, the tank is a unit murderer, cover or not. Against heavy troops you put out so many shots that some are bound to die, and your troops can finish them off. Against tanks the assault cannon and MM are far more effective (at the tank & troops shooting range of 24") than the Godhammer, at 12" it is even better. At 48" the Godhammer is obviously better at killing anything, but think abou this:

a) if your land raider is 48" from the enemy & your troops are 24" away from the enemy, neither is supported adequately & both will die

b ) if your land raider is 48" away with your troops, your troops are doing nothing and you kill less

c) 24" is a massive range in 40k. With 2 land raiders, you can drive into the middle of the board & dominate most of it, only the corners and extreme edges are safe, but you can move 6" and still shoot to cover most of this area.

 

2) Moving stuff: The extra capacity of the LRC is fantastic. At 1500 points, I'd always recommend 2 LRs & 2 IC (mostly because I think dreadnoughts are bunk). So if you need to move your army & you have 2 ICs - how do they get out of there if they can't get in a tank? The LRCs provide flexibility in that a squad can attach 1 or 2 ICs and still be able to load up & go where they like. This is useful where an IC has had a squad shot out from around them & needs to join another squad.

 

3) Assaulting: The LRC is an assault tank, meaning it is the only way we can get I5 from our ICs whilst charging into cover. In an assaulty list this is almost mandatory, as without this ability, TLC terminators turn into puny powerfists.

 

Dreadnaughts:

May be better now that the meta has swung so far to melta weapons, our LRCs are 250 point melta targets. The best tactics seem to be to:

1) take as many s you can

2) Either:

a) Drop pods, venerable, MM & DCCW

b ) Walking wall with your terminators with AC & DCCW - the perfect compliment for your standard terminator squad

c) Long range TLLC & ML as a fire base to kill scarey things before you get there with your terminators

Equip them all the same. Redundancy is the key to killing things in 40k.

 

There you go. Hope that helped.

[RayJ]

@Russel's teapot:

 

All the information you have provided (except the information on the Land Raiders) is the same bog-standard stuff I read when I was starting with my Deathwing army. Some of it has a lot of merit, so I will incorporate it into my information. I will disagree that it is necessarily the best way to run pure Deathwing, as my mech Deathwing follows the advice I am giving and has a solid track record.

 

I've done much of those same things you mention and been completely demolished by armies in the current environment. My advice is coming from things I have seen perform well. Your take on fighting with Deathwing looks like you are playing a lot of Annihilation and not so much on the objective missions, or you are playing much more aggressively than I would consider.

 

Neither of those things are wrong, but they will give us much different experiences with what works. We should discuss a little more the environment we play in (opponents, builds, terrain, missions) to see if we can provide better information to the readers.

 

It is also important to note, that I am giving information on how best to use units that don't see a lot of play (such as the Deathwing Librarian). I am not saying that all our units are the most efficient or most effective or that they even have a place in a well-built competitive list. I am providing a framework for how the units themselves work best so that maybe someone will discover something new and increase their playing ability accordingly. Some of the tricks and/or gimmicks that can be learned will be just the thing for a savvy general to step up his game.

 

Expect an update probably tomorrow incorporating your ideas. There's a lot of good stuff in your words, but it also needs to be parsed for objectivity. My goal isn't to have people read this and all make the same cookie-cutter lists. I want to inform what the options are, and what merits and failings each unit has to their fullest extent so readers can make an informed choice.

 

It sounds to me like you have a pretty good grasp on the pure deathwing, so I'd very much like to hear more from you!

[Russell's teapot]

Hey RayJ,

 

Sorry if I came across a little...um...terse, bad day at the office, thanks for not jumping down my throat :D

 

I look forward to discussions.

 

Cheers.

 

RT

[RayJ]

I have incorporated your information into the Deathwing section, and I think it is much more informative now. I still need to add your other comments to their appropriate sections, but I'm gonna finish up painting my last Deathwing squad this evening. I have a lot of small details to finish there...

[HsojVvad]

I have a question. Someone mentioned that a RW can be 4 points in a Kill point mission. Wouldn't this be one piont if the DA player choose not to break it up? I don't have codex on me, so I thought it was up to the player to break them up to into smaller squads if he so choose so. So couldn't they be one KP instead of 4?

[Tomevans]

Excellent stuff so far RayJ, however I would like to add one thing. Assault Marines are good for protecting transports, as they can keep pace with the tanks and then assault units with melta weapons etc to tie them down and give the tank a better chance to advance and then provide support for the disembarked troops when they have dealt with the melta unit. Hope that is useful for you.

[RayJ]

@HsojVvad, If you purchase all 8 models for the Ravenwing Attack Squadron, they will be 4 kill points if you combat squad and 3 if you don't. The Attack Bike and Land Speeder are ALWAYS separate units.

[krewl]

I'm not going to re-quote the entire Deathwing blob, but most of it is good writing. But thinking of the enviroment I'll just add my bits without a huge quote, as people might print the thread :devil:

 

Off side note: DW with the current rulesset are just not good enough to cut it against today's super army's. (Off course off course this is my opinion, perhaps you do fine in your local metagame, or you are just a superb general.) I play a fair ammount of tournaments, and my DW just don't cut it.

Ravenwing and DeathRaven do a lot better imho, combined they fill each others weakspots, and pure RW is just so fast with so many Specials and multimelta's that a well played list can refuse flank and put a ton of hurt on the enemy.

Back to deathwing:

 

Pure DW has 2 builds; All foot or meched in landraiders.

 

Meched Deathwing

Those landraiders are just not hard enough these days, with melta so readly available and on fast units aswell. I have 3 LR's, but against current codexes, they run into melta and die. Plus they eat away one DW squad per LR, so you end up with to little troops on the table for my liking. So I'd rather not build a list that has the weakness of beeing easy to disable for 40% of my points by BA, SW, IG, SM. In those four alone you have the most prevalent army's at tournaments. Hoping for a good match is not a good way to build a list.

 

Footslogging

Pure foot should use deepstrikes to gain entry up to (I'd say) midfield, NOT in your face up against the enemy. (Unless you want to distract them and keep him in his deployment zone for an objective game, but that only works against newer opponents with slower armylists.)

As you are on foot you need a battleplan when you deploy. Your units should know where to head, and you should start walking asap as 6"(When you want to shoot) is not that far, and the game minght end at t5.

 

Weapon options

Here (In footsloggers) is where I WOULD consider one unit with a cyclone. Even if it is just one shot, in 2 out of 3 missions you need to cover a back objective, and you might as well have that unit commit something to the game.

Heavy flamers for me are a gap filler, If say I have to little points for another assault cannon, I use the HF in 1 squad. (Works well on DeathRaven, I deep strike the unit off a teleport homer, in a perfect flamer spot on the drop.) But as we are talking pure DW here, I'd skip it if at all possible.

 

I fully agree on the Assault Cannon being the weapon of choice, if we ever get a 2 shot cyclone I'd take that hands down on every squad. What DW misses most of all is range to reach out and touch someone over 24". It's not a matter of blindly following the masses, the heavy flamer lacks range, AP(rending) and Strength. You need to be in "about" charge range to use it, and often you will not want to spoil charge chances so you might opt to not use it. Even at 5 points it's a waste 90% of the time. The CML is just 1 shot, and although that is still usefull, that's one unit of about 150 points doing this.... PIEUW, one shot, for 250 (or 240) points? It should be obvious that that is so inefficient pointswise it can not be your "Main" heavy weapon.

 

I strongly object to one thing though in the comments by Russell's teapot.

 

You always try to get the apothecary in either a pure Deathwing of Deathraven list.

For less points then a terminator you get to ignore a failed save. Use it ONCE in a game and it made more then it's points back. Odds are you'll use it several times, and it makes your termies harder. In my games with DeathRaven I have 2 apothecaries, working in sinc, supporting Belial and 2 squads of termies on a DWA. They are SO hard to kill. No matter what they shoot at you you are hardly damaged, and that's priceless. (I once had 30 hits in a volley on my squad, ending with 2 wounds, which I ignored.. priceless.)

 

Based on my experience and my playstyle they save 2 or 3 guys a game, hardly ever less. Especially as you use these saves for your important guys (like the assault cannon for example) they are easily worth their points. Say 3 guys, once on the assault cannon. Thats a 1 to 6 return on investment, or 3 more termies and you still have you important heavy weapon spilling out damage.

 

The banner is a nice to have, mostly because I prefer the librarian for the 2nd characater, or no 2nd guy at all. Belial in squad with banner and a LC guy is just killer, all those High I attacks re-rolling to wound do a ton of damage. (6 on belial on the charge, 5 on the regular guy. chop chop!)

 

He's (Mr. Teapot) dead right on some others though.

Fearless is 100% good on termies.

1. You have a 1 in six chance of failing that save, who cares?

2. If you lost combat you did less wounds. As you have (in my builds) powerweapon, lightning claws, 3 guys with fists, you did some wounds at least, so you got 3 or 4 back (unsaved)? how many of your guys are left? You lost CC and that means you either had a very bad diceroll or you are in CC with the wrong thing! (Super CC units mostly, some MC's aswell, though you should normally kill or at least do 3-ish wounds. )

For you to fear fearless wounds you'd need to take a lot, but the odds of you doing 0 wounds and he doing 4 are minimal (with all the fists, you should hit&wound something), and that's your worsth case scenario. So why worry about a unit already lost if they got hit so bad that these saves apply?

The ammount of controle (your guys never run away) you get in return is worth it for every bit.

 

Sergeants are there for the 1st save

I call mine Mr "take one for the team" as they so often do.

Also you could upgrade him for free to twin claws guy aswell, less diferent models, but more CC attacks. Depends a whole lot on your playstyle, as you lose a bit more shooting.

 

Characters are woundsinks.

You have very little on the board as you play an elite army. Do your best to keep your guys onboard.

So do not discount the following: Belial, Librarian in termie armour, apothecary, sacrificial sarge.

Shoot at these guys please? 2+ saves, plasma I can ignore 1 wound done, I have a 2+ inv save on the librarian, other wounds I can stack on belial and the libby. They suck up shots like a magnet, and in your turn you get to strike back with hardly deminished capacity. (And a heavy flamer-ish attack, or the combi weapon, and 2 characters and a DW terminator unit. Darn right it's killy ;-)

[Brother_Darius]

Any thoughts on adding more to this? It has been a great read so far, noticed a few were labeled "coming soon" and last update was August.