Playing Dark Angels

[RayJ]

I definitely want to, but I've been throwing a lot of my time into Project Redemption, Project Unforgiven, and playtesting of some tournament armies and alternate rules systems. I'll see if I can get some more work done on this this weekend.

[Brother_Darius]

I definitely want to, but I've been throwing a lot of my time into Project Redemption, Project Unforgiven, and playtesting of some tournament armies and alternate rules systems. I'll see if I can get some more work done on this this weekend.

 

You know. Only after reading this post did I even both to look up project Redemption and Project Unforgiven. HOLY COW. As someone who has played DA since 2nd edition this has gotten my excited once again. I drifted away after 4th edition. I must say though that I think that this tactical write up here, could have great synergy with both of those two projects. I've found your right up to be particularly valueable as you note both how the DA portions work in concert with other DA portions as well as noting how they differ from other Codex's.

 

Working through that thought process and putting it down in text, I think will pay very good dividends for both of those other two projects. You need to have a full understanding of where you are, if you are going to plot a successful course forward.

[RayJ]

A notice to the Unforgiven:

 

This thread is being resurrected, and updated to the current game format. I have already updated the initial post, and I will be updating the information in each of the sections shortly. I'm doing a lot of initial prep over the next couple of days, and the major work and unfinished sections will begin to go up after DragonCon (So beginning in about a week).

 

If it is possible, I'd like to get the mods to remove the posts between the Strategies & Sample lists post and this one to make it easier for relevant discussion to take place. I'd like to keep this as a living resource, constantly updated as the game environment changes.

[Bringer of Redemption]

That's good to hear. I found what you had up useful, and more will be even better.

 

--BoR

[Brother_Darius]

A notice to the Unforgiven:

 

This thread is being resurrected, and updated to the current game format. I have already updated the initial post, and I will be updating the information in each of the sections shortly. I'm doing a lot of initial prep over the next couple of days, and the major work and unfinished sections will begin to go up after DragonCon (So beginning in about a week).

 

If it is possible, I'd like to get the mods to remove the posts between the Strategies & Sample lists post and this one to make it easier for relevant discussion to take place. I'd like to keep this as a living resource, constantly updated as the game environment changes.

 

This is awesome news.....

[RayJ]

Just a note: all the existing sections have been updated. Most of the information for Greenwing and Ravenwing didn't need much work, but I fixed a lot of typos. I'd like to get some feedback on what is sitting in those sections currently, as more user input can only make the information resource better. I hope to get the Ironwing stuff all put up before I head to DragonCon so we can get into the real meat of what will make this useful once I get back: Strategies, Synergies, and bringing the army together as a cohesive whole.

[Droma]

I think the ravenwing section is pretty solid. I'd make specific mention of common ways to field them as well as strategies. Specifically outflanking 3 man melta bike squads, and 3 mm/typhoon speeders 1 in each FA slot.

 

Overall I like your guide and the specific unit breakdown but personally I always found it more useful to get general army synergies/strategies/standout units than specific unit breakdowns. The first approach can be lite on details but provides pertinent useful info for gamers looking to get into or improve with the army while the second can just overload someone with info and make them not really sure what is better than what in the army.

 

I think that's one of the reasons the DW tactica thread on warseer has reached 240+ pages.

 

Edit: I think I'll copy and paste some of my strats from another thread into here to maybe start some discussion going.

 

At 2k lately I've been running this list.

 

Belial

DW: sarge, 4x th/sh, apoth, cml

DW: 5x th/sh, cml

DW: 5x th/sh, cml

DW: sarge, 4x pf/sb, cml

DW: sarge, 3x pf/sb, 1x cf/sb, cml

 

2x ven dreads, extra armor

 

3man bike squad pf, 2x melta

3man bike squad pf, 2x melta

 

Here is my general strategy for each of the 3 mission types.

 

Seize ground: Start with every thing but the bikes on the board and have the bikes outflank. The 3 th/sh squads+belial walk forward and capture objectives. The shooty squads guard home base. The dreads support weak areas. The bikes hunt armor and if they live late game contest/capture objectives with turbo boost.

 

Capture and Control: All of the terminators in reserve. Dreads on my objective. Bikes outflank. I deathwing assault the 3 th/sh squads as close as I can to the enemy objective and they just roll over any defenses he's got there. The bikes harass where I need them and my shooty squads I drop on my home objective and shoot anything trying to claim it. The dreads act as a good deterrent to anything wanting to try and swamp them in CC because they are such a good tarpit.

 

Annihilation: Everything on the board and castle up. Let them come to me. Bikes outflank once again. You want to form somewhat of a wall with the 3 th/sh squads upfront. You want to keep the dreads 6" behind them along with the shooty squads. The th/sh wall prevents first turn alpha strikes from melta vets in valks or podding armies toasting your dreads on turn one.

 

 

These strats can and do change depending on the army I'm facing but they serve well against most opponents that you'd face. If you run bikes or typhoon speeders never start with them on the board, they aren't very durable even with T5 because of 3+/4++(cover) at most and they're very often decimated turn 1/2 because they are a big danger to most opponents if they can have free run of the board. Th/sh squads as a mobile cover screen and charge deterrent are great. Most marine armies and a decent number of xeno's ones want to get close to you so using them as a mobile wall can be a good tactic. Also with the number of krak missiles you've got any squad you catch without cover can be very quickly decimated by focused fire for a turn. Try and keep long sight lines and force enemies to approach through open ground so you can whittle them down with instant death long range shooting, this will let your CC focused squads mop up pretty easily.

[RayJ]

Most of what you want will be coming in the Synergies and Bringing it All Together sections. I will probably go back and cover common unit setups for competitive play for each of the really important units, but I think it's important to look at those units in relation to what else the army can do. That's really what Bringing it All Together will be about. The unit sections before that serve as a primer to get the reader ready for that higher level of thinking.

 

I do think I will need to modify the existing sections some more to pair down the information and focus more on competitive output.

 

I look forward to getting the basic stuff done so we can really move into the important strategy and tactical stuff. That's where the community will best be able to help me. What you ahve here is a decent foundation for some early discussion, so keep it up. I think when we get done, each of the primary army list types will deserve their own threads with links in my guide. The different army compositions and capabilities will make it difficult for information to be cross-compatible with many lists at once.

[skink]

Awesome news indeed. I enjoyed the thread greatly when it began, and have been looking forward to strategies and synergies ever since then. I'm not the most experienced player so I doubt any critique from me will be much worth while, but I'll make suggestions/offer encouragment as and when seems appropriate!! Let the good times roll...

[RayJ]

Just to inform,

 

I am now back (and mostly recuperated) from my amazing trip to Dragon*Con. I'm going over some of the analysis from NOVA (infos provided by Kirby and some others) and then I'm diving into finishing off the Ironwing section today for sure. Something incredible to note from the NOVA Open:

 

5 players, from 204 total players, were playing Dark Angels (we assume all were Deathwing-based armies), and they had a combined 23-17 record for a 57.5% win percentage. That is higher than any other codex percentage-wise, showing exactly how strong the basic Deathwing core can be vs the majority of army lists out there. 2 of the 5 DA players managed to work themselves into the top ~19% on competitive results (competitive rating of .6 or higher). The other 3 players seemed to hover lower on the results, so we see that this still weighs in heavily with player skill, as our results are the same with a .5 competitive rating or higher.

 

From the data I've seen so far, Deathwing based armies are capable of competing at the top of the pack, though the general playing with them will need to be able to plan ahead and master the deployment and movement aspects of the game. Space Wolves and Grey Knights look to be the top books right now, with Dark Eldar and Blood Angels popping in with a good showing. We compare very well versus these armies, though our weaknesses are relatively easy for each of these to capitalize on.

 

Edit: here are the SAG ratings for the various armies based on opponent strength and other such things (similar to NCAA Football, provided by htmlord)

 

SAG Ratings

2.02 Dark Eldar

2.00 Dark Angels

1.94 Space Wolves

1.88 Blood Angels

1.86 Grey Knights

1.79 Imperial Guard

1.76 Eldar

1.72 Orks

1.61 Space Marines

1.52 Tau

1.41 Black Templar

1.37 Tyranids

1.33 Witch Hunters

1.28 Necrons

1.05 Daemons

0.92 CSM

 

It kind of makes me sad that I didn't get to attend, but Dragon*Con was an incredible experience as well. Stay tuned for updates.

[Russell's teapot]

Good to see this tactica moving again.

 

If you're interested in Pure DeathWing tactics, I've written a little ditty on it over at the other place.

 

Happy unforgiving!

[Droma]

Should come hang out more often russell. Your input is always good.

[Grand Master Raziel]

I have some comments about the material presented thus far. In some instances, I'm responding to specific passages, which will be quoted.

 

Under (almost) no circumstances should you build an army list that uses 10-man Tactical Squads with razorbacks. Making the decision to use the Combat Squad rules should be done at the beginning of the game, and not at list creation. You need to make sure the list can adapt to as many situations as possible, and going this route makes that very hard against some lists or even worse, certain terrain setups.

 

The 10-man Tac Squad with the Razorback can be good support for a Deathwing-heavy army. DWT squads are too valuable to tie down minding objectives. A combat-squadded Tac Squad with a Razorback can mind 2 while providing some much-needed fire support, for approximately the same price as 1 DWT Squad. This can be especially important in the NOVA-style GT games that have been popular recently, where regardless of what mission you're playing, there are going to be 5 objectives on the table and holding at least some of them is going to be important.

 

Regarding Scouts, I think the best use for Scouts is to harass backfield units. You want to get them there via outflanking, as Infiltrating isn't generally going to be reliable enougy. Unfortunately, Elites is a crowded category, making it hard to squeeze Scouts in.

 

Regarding Assault Marines, I don't have any problem with anything you stated in their entry. However, you left out how badly overpriced they are - upwards of 40pts for a full squad if memory serves. When I use Assault Squads, I mitigate the overcosting by not taking the plasma pistols. My Assault Squad gets run as 9 normal squaddies and a Vet Sergeant with a power fist. I find I don't miss the plasma pistols.

 

That said, a Company Vet Squad with pistol+ccw makes a pretty credible substitute for an Assault Squad as a counter-assault unit. With a Rhino, a 10-man CV squad winds up costing exactly the same amount as a 10-man Assault Squad. They don't have jump packs, but they do have 4 attacks each on the charge - that's enough to be considered an actual serious assault unit in my book. You also save a smidge of points by not having to give a jump pack to the hypothetical accompanying Chaplain. You do have to drop the squad size down to 9-man to get the Chappy in the squad's track, but you save a few points that way, too.

 

Devastator Squads are the kings of heavy firepower in the DA Codex.

 

Not really. A 5-man Dev Squad with 4 MLs is running in the vicinity of 170pts. An ACLC Pred costs us 130. Same degree of anti-armor firepower, and adds to armor saturation, which is important.

 

The Multi-Melta, on the other hand, is not a weapon we like to see static in bulk. Its much shorter range makes it more ideal for the tactical squad, which operates at the 12-24inch threat range much more efficiently.

 

True, but I've been thinking about a Dev Squad with 10-men, 2 MMs, and 2 of something else, plus a Rhino. The squad splits up, and the combat squad with the two MMs hop in the Rhino and drive to midfield to play area denial. If one MM in a Tac Squad in a Rhino is good for area denial, you'd think two would be twice as good. The downsides are cost and taking up a Heavy Support slot where you could take a Predator.

 

Sammael is widely regarded as the best HQ in the DA Codex, and for good reason. With two options to choose from for statline and rules, he is capable of leading almost any army into battle.

 

I kind of thought, post-FAQ, Belial was considered the best HQ choice in the dex.

 

To round of this unit (Deathwing Terminators), you can still purchase a chain-fist for any model (and purchasing one per squad is highly recommended), easily allowing all 5 members of your squad to be equipped differently. When it comes to enemy shooting and opposing sergeants with powerfists and power weapons, this lets you get through with fewer casualties on those attacks that penetrate your 2+ armor save.

 

An important little tidbit to keep aware of: you can upgrade the Terminator Sergeant to carry a chainfist. The sergeant's power sword is just about useless, but a chainfist is always useful, and much more of an upgrade from the power sword than it would be from a power fist. That makes 5pts to upgrade the Sergeant to carry a chainfist points very well spent.

 

I haven't found having a single Terminator with L-claws in a DWT squad to be a particularly valulable upgrade, though. Even charging, he's really not killing all that much - certainly not enough to justify losing both a power fist and a storm bolter. About the only reason to throw a single L-claw Termie in a DWT squad is to play wound allocation shenanigans. Multiples may be good, particularly in a rock unit with the Deathwing Banner, but one by himself is decidedly mediocre.

 

Instead of the default configuration (for Belial), most players opt for a pair of lightning claws.

 

I believe this reference is out of date. Post-FAQ, I think most players are opting for THSS.

[Russell's teapot]

Should come hang out more often russell. Your input is always good.

 

I tend to watch here, I can't be on every forum.

 

I like this thread though.

[RayJ]

Great discussion points, Raziel. I will try to work in some of your input to the sections to make things a little clearer. I still think Sammael is the best individual HQ based on his individual effectiveness and the armies he opens up. Belial definitely opens up the best troops, but on his own is still a little more than a multi-wound terminator. You are right that more people are using the TH/SS now, but I'm not sure it's the most popular choice yet. I'll have to look through some lists and do some research on that. I still swap between them to see how the army performs each way.

 

When working the math, a pair lightning claws are pretty much on par with a powerfist/thunder hammer for killing things at toughness 4 or lower with a single wound. The whole point behind using them is to get those swings in before powerfists and the like. Also, opening up wound allocation options is important, and shouldn't be just ignored. It's this very reason that I often keep the sergeant with a power weapon.

 

The only point you make that I really disagree with is on a 10-man Tactical squad with a razorback. I am not saying that the use of combat squads is wrong. What I am saying is you should decide when the game starts, based on mission, opponent, and terrain whether or not to combat squad. Doing this at the army list level greatly reduces your ability to adapt to the situation.

 

I can foresee situations where you would ignore this advice in list building, but I don't feel most generals are at the point where they understand the ramifications of making that choice at army list creation. My advice as a general guide then will remain the same, because as it is worded it is true while still leaving the option open for a good general to ignore my advice and do something new and exciting.

 

Keep up the discussion with these great points. I'm only one person, so my perspective is kind of limited. Your help will make this much better!

[Droma]

I agree and disagree with Raziel about the 10 man tac squad and a razorback. If you know what you're doing it works. I've used it to good effect before. However on general principles I agree with RayJ that's it not a very good choice.

 

What I do think is a good choice is a 5 man tac squad with razorback and using other units to get the support you need. DA still have a tiny advantage over other codex's in that we can still get special weapons in our 5 man squads. You have to pay for them but you can get them.

 

If you do plan on using a 10 man squad though I'd almost recommend not getting a heavy weapon because of the point waste and sinking those saved points into buying or upgrading a unit that is better suited to long range. The DA codex is very weird in a lot cases with certain options being more/less expensive than other codex's and you've got to make the most of that.

[pueriexdeus]

Regarding the 10 man Sqd w/RZRBK, I play them all the time in my GW games.

 

Tactica; I CS the Sqd, leaving the HW on my Obj's with DEV support. Stickem in the RZRBK w/another CS and a JP Chappi following on foot and go after the OP Obj's. Works for me.

[Droma]

Let me get this straight...

 

You use a 5 man squad in a razor, and on foot walking behind them is another 5 tac squad with attached jump pack chappy? And this works?

 

Not trying to sound offensive but you're wasting the 12inch moves by both the razorback and chaplain in order to have a single 5 man tac squad keep up. They'd all be shot to pieces inside a single turn most of the time in all the experience I've had facing enemy shooting. Not to mention neither squad is CC oriented so the chappy seems like a waste to put with them.

[Varizel]

Let me get this straight...

 

You use a 5 man squad in a razor, and on foot walking behind them is another 5 tac squad with attached jump pack chappy? And this works?

 

Not trying to sound offensive but you're wasting the 12inch moves by both the razorback and chaplain in order to have a single 5 man tac squad keep up. They'd all be shot to pieces inside a single turn most of the time in all the experience I've had facing enemy shooting. Not to mention neither squad is CC oriented so the chappy seems like a waste to put with them.

 

Seems like he's CSing his guys and put the heavy weapon guys on the back w/ a squad of Devs... and then have the other half ride on RZB and have a jp chappie follows on foot... behind the RZRB. Something along those line.

[Droma]

No he specifically says he's got the jp chap hoofing it with another combat squad behind the razor.

 

Edit: @puer

What point level do you normally play at?

[Grand Master Raziel]

Great discussion points, Raziel. I will try to work in some of your input to the sections to make things a little clearer. I still think Sammael is the best individual HQ based on his individual effectiveness and the armies he opens up. Belial definitely opens up the best troops, but on his own is still a little more than a multi-wound terminator. You are right that more people are using the TH/SS now, but I'm not sure it's the most popular choice yet. I'll have to look through some lists and do some research on that. I still swap between them to see how the army performs each way.

 

What makes THSS Belial stand head and shoulders over 2xLC Belial is his durability. 2+/3++ with 3 wounds for 130pts is a steal. Belial helps keep a DWT squad in action by taking wounds that require the 3++ but don't insta-kill - basically plasma and the like. He's got a good chance of saving against those wounds, but can afford to fail a couple of those saves.

 

When working the math, a pair lightning claws are pretty much on par with a powerfist/thunder hammer for killing things at toughness 4 or lower with a single wound. The whole point behind using them is to get those swings in before powerfists and the like. Also, opening up wound allocation options is important, and shouldn't be just ignored. It's this very reason that I often keep the sergeant with a power weapon.

 

The twin LCs might be about as good as a PF against T4 opponents, but aren't anywhere near as good (and in some cases are outright useless) against a lot of the kinds of opponents you need to chuck Terminators against - vehicles, MCs, and Dreadnoughts. Plus, power fists are insta-killing multi-wound models up to T4, whereas LCs aren't. What really bugs me, though, is losing the storm bolter. DWT squad can pump out some pretty respectable firepower if they all have guns. Losing one storm bolter may not be much of a degradation of firepower, but I, at least, notice it. A fair point on wound allocation, though.

 

The only point you make that I really disagree with is on a 10-man Tactical squad with a razorback. I am not saying that the use of combat squads is wrong. What I am saying is you should decide when the game starts, based on mission, opponent, and terrain whether or not to combat squad. Doing this at the army list level greatly reduces your ability to adapt to the situation.

 

Also a fair point. To be honest, you can accomplish the same thing with a 10-man Tac Squad with a Rhino. You lose a heavy weapon, but don't have as much incentive to combat-squad every game. Plus, retaining the Rhino's top hatch lets the embarked squad fire out of it. In that case, I might be inclined to give a plasma pistol to the sergeant, so the demi-squad can fully utilize the firing point. For 5pts, throwing the extra storm bolter on the Rhino seems like a good idea on paper, but I never seem to have the points to spare to do so.

[pueriexdeus]

Seems like he's CSing his guys and put the heavy weapon guys on the back w/ a squad of Devs... and then have the other half ride on RZB and have a jp chappie follows on foot... behind the RZRB. Something along those line.

 

No he specifically says he's got the jp chap hoofing it with another combat squad behind the razor.

 

Edit: @puer

What point level do you normally play at?

This works at 700/1500<point level.

 

Yes the JP Chappi is hoofing/bounding, until he needs to tarpit something, the follow behind footsloging Combat Sqd becomes the Counter Charge Sqd to support the Chppi.

In the process the Rzrbk Sqd is usually free to take the obj. Side note, the hoofing CS Sqd has the PG, and the Rzrbk CS SQD has the Flmr.

 

On the back side of retaining our own Obj/Obj's, we have a full Dev Sqd, (that can be CS'ed) with Tac Sqd HW support.

 

This is a standard tactic I use regardless of the points. I think you all need to think about using combat teams.

 

A Combat team is comprised of more than one unit that works in concert with each other to accomplish a specific objective.

 

In larger point games w/DW & RW the strategy remains the same. Always have sufficient long range firepower available to decimate the Op before you have to CC with him. Make sure you have Troops to hold your own Obj, and at the least contest his.

 

When you do CC, make sure it is to your advantage.

 

Tactia: PM Me

[Droma]

I agree on all of Raziel's points. Especially the ones about Belial using th/sh.

 

1. It's more survivability for Belial. All of a sudden he's not losing tons of wounds in cc from failed 5+ saves.

2. It's more survivability for the squad thanks to Belial being able to take the first 2 plasma hits.

3. Between characters, paladins, nobs, walkers, and tanks the extra strength almost always finds a use in every game. I used to use LC Belial and just too often ran into situations where I needed str 8 and got tar-pitted.

 

edit: Although if belials sword was str6 and he had an iron halo I'd almost always use that option.

[pueriexdeus]

I agree on all of Raziel's points. Especially the ones about Belial using th/sh.

 

1. It's more survivability for Belial. All of a sudden he's not losing tons of wounds in cc from failed 5+ saves.

2. It's more survivability for the squad thanks to Belial being able to take the first 2 plasma hits.

3. Between characters, paladins, nobs, walkers, and tanks the extra strength almost always finds a use in every game. I used to use LC Belial and just too often ran into situations where I needed str 8 and got tar-pitted.

 

edit: Although if belials sword was str6 and he had an iron halo I'd almost always use that option.

Yes some people are so fearful the Belial will get killed w/o a TH/SS.

 

I have learned better;

My DW Command Sqd is 3xTH/SS, 2xLC's w/ Apoth, Banner, CML, and the big B, LC's.

Belial's six I5 LC attacks on the charge are much better than 5 I1 TH attacks after the Op swings.

Belial's five I5 attacks receiving the charge are much better than 4 I1 attacks after the Op swings.

I have not lost him yet.

 

The 3xTH/SS's absorb any Op's PW's, and usually Belial kills w/50% of his hits before the Op can even do his thing. FNP is a gimme anyway. Wanting Belial to be Lysander is sad, sad, sad.

 

If you haven't figured out how to play Belial without a TH/SS, your not a Deathwing player.

[Droma]

@puer I wouldn't do your razor/jp chap follow strat in anything above 1200pts or you're asking to have that unit eaten alive.

edit: Your points about units supporting other units is good advice and very valid at any point range.

 

As to your points about LC belial..

You and your opponents need to go read the combat rules again. Belial is an IC and if the opponent is dedicating attacks against him then your th/sh guys can't eat those attacks for him.