Playing Dark Angels

[pueriexdeus]

@puer I wouldn't do your razor/jp chap follow strat in anything above 1200pts or you're asking to have that unit eaten alive.

edit: Your points about units supporting other units is good advice and very valid at any point range.

 

As to your points about LC belial..

You and your opponents need to go read the combat rules again. Belial is an IC and if the opponent is dedicating attacks against him then your th/sh guys can't eat those attacks for him.

Yes above 800 points I do add other supporting elements to the game. Here is my new 1500 point GW list that is based off of the smaller JP/Rzrbk/Dev list..

 

Yes the whole idea of dedicated supporting units is lost to most players, sad, eh?

 

Belial, I know the rules, I refuse to put him in B2B unless I am dedicating his attacks against an Op IC. At I5, most Op models will die before they can attack back, so it's a non issue for me. 3X TH/SS will absorb the hits after the other two LC's have attacked... Model placement has a lot to do with the battle at hand. Belial with his Command Sqd outfitted as I do will rarely fail unless their up against a SM:C Deathstar unit, ala Calgar/Honor Guard w/Relic Blades. I know, it's the only unit my Belial w/Cmd Sqd has lost to.

 

In most games Belial will win the day if used correctly. One game I detached him from his Cmd Sqd, to run off and dispatch an Op unit by himself on an Obj contesting it for the win.

 

Mathhammer is one thing, bold, decisive action is another.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Belial, I know the rules, I refuse to put him in B2B unless I am dedicating his attacks against an Op IC. At I5, most Op models will die before they can attack back, so it's a non issue for me.

 

You've been getting lucky, or facing Belial off against a lot of weak ICs. Most ICs are WS5+I5 or better, have more than 2 wounds, and at least some kind of invulnerable save. Against what I'd regard as a typical IC, Belial should be generating 2-3 hits and 1.5-2 wounds, with a fair likelihood of at least one of those wounds being saved against. The odds of Belial killing an even modestly competent IC before he gets to swing back are pretty small.

[Droma]

I agree with Raziel, I'm not sure what enemy IC's you're facing if belial kills them all before they can swing back as most should at least be even in init with him. Once again read the assault rules. If you're making an assault the IC must be the first one moved towards the enemy, then the opponent also gets to move his models into b2b once you finish your assault moves. Unless you're talking about just avoiding a fight you're not going to avoid belial getting into combat.

[RayJ]

I am personally weighted towards using the TH/SS on Belial over LCs in my listbuilding for all the reasons listed above by Raziel/Droma. My previous statement was that I didn't have the evidence to say the TH/SS version is used more often than the LC version just yet. I think both options are valid, even if the TH/SS applies to more situations; the attacks at Initiative 5 do have merit, and this version of Belial is made for dealing with standard infantry, not ICs, MCs, or Walkers. I typically feel Deathwing as a whole do extremely well against those targets anyway, and I can definitely see someone kitting out the command squad for dealing with the smaller bits of an opponent's army more effectively.

 

I will definitely be updating each section based on these discussions, so keep it coming.

 

My statement on 10-man squads with razorbacks will not change. I acknowledge in my statements that there are situations in listbuilding where a good general can do that, but as a general rule, you should definitely not do it. I am used to adapting my tactics and strategies during the game, and it's a skill more generals need to work with. Forcing yourselves into a limited set of options needs to be carefully considered. Is the beefier turret and extra points cost worth the loss of versatility for the squad? In most cases the answer is a definite "NO". I don't care that under 60% or more conditions it will work fine. I'm worried about the percentage where it is not optimal and you have to force your squad to either split up and be weaker, or stay outside the transport and be vulnerable the whole game. There are plenty of lists in the competitive environment today that can tear you up because of that decision.

[Droma]

I'm not going to argue over greenwing tactics too much unless stuff is obvious. I'll probably be keeping most of my comments to deathwing/doublewing advice as that is the army I play most often.

[Grand Master Raziel]

I am personally weighted towards using the TH/SS on Belial over LCs in my listbuilding for all the reasons listed above by Raziel/Droma. My previous statement was that I didn't have the evidence to say the TH/SS version is used more often than the LC version just yet.

 

We could throw a poll out there if anyone is really interested, but I don't think it's really important enough. Pre-FAQ, I'd certainly have agreed with you. Now, I'm supposing most players who are even mildly competitive have switched over, though it could be folks are still soldiering on with their LC-Belials rather than change over before the new dex comes out. I have to tell you, though, converting the pewter Termie Captain to THSS Belial is wicked easy. You get the THSS arms from the Assault Termie sergeant, attach the THSS arm where the Termie Captain's storm bolter arm would go, trim the skull off the other arm's wrist vambrace, then glue the SS hand to where the power sword is supposed to go. I did have to use a pin and a little green stuff to make it stay securely, but very little cutting was necessary, and the pose I wound up with is even pretty decent.

 

My statement on 10-man squads with razorbacks will not change.

 

Okay. I thought what I last stated on the subject was pretty clear, but I'll reiterate it a little more plainly here. When taking a Tac Squad to claim objectives for a DW-heavy force, taking a 10-man squad with a Razorback could be useful, but it's probably better off with a Rhino. If you combat squad, one demi-squad can sit on an objective, the other can hop in the Rhino and scoot to another, and annoy things with a meltagun and maybe a plasma pistol out the Rhino's top hatch. The Rhino also has the virtue of being cheaper, and can transport the whole squad in case claiming more than one objective isn't an important game consideration. So, basically I agree with you, with one caveat: if you're building for a situation where you know objective-claiming is always going to be at least somewhat important (such as the NOVA Open GTs), then the Razorback might be worth considering. I've been noticing the tournament scene with some frequency using 5 objectives evenly distributed across the board and mattering to some degree every game, so if you're building for such a tournament, you might want both demi-squads to be able to reach out and touch things. For general play, though, you probably don't want to have to commit to combat squadding the Tac Squad during Annihilation missions.

 

RayJ, I invite you to cut-and-quote whatever you deem useful or appropriate from any of my replies. You can call this bit GMR's NOVA Open caveat.

[RayJ]

Belial & 10-Man Tac Squads sections have been modified. Scouting & Outflanking has been added to the Ravenwing section. I think that makes the foundation pretty good so we can start working on Synergies. Feel free to list your favorite unit synergies to help me out.

[outrider]

Assault Squads

Updated August 29, 2011

(..)

As for armament, it's pretty simple. If you want some ability to deal with light vehicles and heavy infantry, throw some plasma pistols into the squad. The sergeant is usually best fit with a powerfist, though if you face a lot of GEQ armies a power weapon will do just fine. The sergeant can also grab another plasma pistol, granting the squad 3 in total and making them very good at taking out transports on rear armor (and thus assaulting the poor squad inside afterwards).

(..)

 

Just some constructive criticism to your great work RayJ. The bolded statement is not true. A transport is a separate unit to the one inside it, therefore shooting it immediately dissallows an assault on the transported unit. Unless of course by "afterwards" you mean "in the next turn" ;)

[skink]

Just some constructive criticism to your great work RayJ. The bolded statement is not true. A transport is a separate unit to the one inside it, therefore shooting it immediately dissallows an assault on the transported unit. Unless of course by "afterwards" you mean "in the next turn" :devil:

 

p.67 of the rulebook, just above the Dedicated Transport box: 'if a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers, if it is allowed to assault according to the assault rules'.

 

As the context involves plasma pistols (as opposed to rapid firing plasma or a heavy), then the assault is good to go (unless for some other reason)... Definitely worth remembering!

[outrider]

Guess you learn something every day :devil: I stand corrected.

[Droma]

I use that strategy frequently to keep my melta bikers around longer. Pop the razor/rhino with a melta shot and charge whats inside. It's almost always better than taking rapid firing bolters and melta guns to the face in my opponents next shooting round.

[pueriexdeus]

I use that strategy frequently to keep my melta bikers around longer. Pop the razor/rhino with a melta shot and charge whats inside. It's almost always better than taking rapid firing bolters and melta guns to the face in my opponents next shooting round.

Does the charge force a difficult terrain test?

[Grand Master Raziel]

Does the charge force a difficult terrain test?

 

One would think, but perhaps not always. There's quite a few people who are unaware you can have a unit pop a transport then charge the forcibly-disembarked squad with the same unit. Catches them by surprise.

 

On that note, Bikes take Dangerous Terrain tests rather than Difficult Terrain tests, but if you're willing to gamble, sometimes that can be handy. Unlike units that take Difficult Terrain, Bikes are getting their full movement and full charge. You might not end that movement/charge with as many Bikes as you started, but you know those suckers are crossing the entire distance. Sometimes it's a good tactical move, even if you do wind up taking casualties to terrain.

[Droma]

It's almost always better to risk it. If you don't charge the unit then you're going to get shot up the following shooting phase because you've got a 3 man melta biker squad that's sitting in the middle of his parking lot turn 1 or 2 he's going to shoot the the hell out of them if you let him.

[Father Mapple]

This is a great article. Thanks! My brother plays Dark Angels, and I'm sending it to him now. I learned a lot and am trying to make a Deathwing list for him now. Good stuff.