Confusion about Chaos Undivided

[minigun762]

This could easily be a case of me looking too deep into the background and trying to make connections that aren't there but I am running into a mental wall when it comes to the idea of Chaos Undivided.

 

At its simplest point, it makes sense. These are people who either worship all of Chaos as an entity/force, or they worship the dark gods as a collective or they don't really worship anything.

 

But I look at it deeper and things don't make nearly as much sense. For example:

1) The whole issue with how you can become an Undivided Daemon Prince when ascenion is always tied to a specific god.

2) How do you get gifts/support from god B when you were helping god A the other day by killing god B's minions or twarting god B's plan? One can only assume that the dark gods don't forget or forgive.

3) How much of the warp is not directly controlled by Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch/Nurgle? We know that they are the greatest influences in the warp but does their influence cover 99% or 10% of the warp? In the first case, its hard to imagine anything existing that isn't tied to one of the big four. In the latter case, the sky is the limit with possibilities of other powerful warp beings who might give their support.

4) Reading things like the Liber Chaotica, it just seems easier to have all of Chaos split amongst the four gods since they seem to attract the majority of the attention anyway. I'm not saying its better, just easier to view it that way. Part of the reason I say that is its so easy to compare the dark gods to the 4 classical elements that are fantasy staples (earth/wind/water/fire).

 

Anyway, let me know what you think and how you view things. A fresh perspective or two could really help I think.

[Dark Apostle Lorenzo]

Hopefully I can shed some light on this, Chaos Undivided is all of Chaos, including the four gods. and a few others that shall remain nameless. When you worship Undivided you are gaining blessing from all the four gods plus the warp realm. and it is the warp realm that the Gods gain thier power from. think of the warp as a fifth Chaos god incorporating the other four into its power, once you can get this image to stick around you start to realize that the four gods are the children of the father which is warp space itself. By worshipping Undivided you are embracing all of Chaos not just One aspect of it and then the limits are boundless.

 

As you gain in power and blessings you dont lose previous ones so a deamon gets monstrous creature blessing from Nurgle, Psychic powers from Tzeentch, he doesnt lose the blessing from nurgle and eventually the powers become so great that he simply becomes a Greater Daemon.

 

I hope I didnt confuse you.

In the name of Lorgar.

[Legatus]

1) The whole issue with how you can become an Undivided Daemon Prince when ascenion is always tied to a specific god.

Well, for one thing undivided Daemon Princes are weaker than dedicated ones (no Mark benefits and all). You could see an undivided Daemonprince eitehr as a Champion that had to work off his ass to please all of the four gods enough to give him a share of power, or perhaps it is a Champion that has gained the blessing of a lesser warp being.

 

 

2) How do you get gifts/support from god B when you were helping god A the other day by killing god B's minions or twarting god B's plan? One can only assume that the dark gods don't forget or forgive.

Obviously a Champion that is worshiping the gods as a pantheon will not rise as quickly in an individual god's favour as a Champion specifically dedicated to that god would. Nonetheless, the individual gods may find him to be a useful pawn if he proves to be successful enough.

 

 

3) How much of the warp is not directly controlled by Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch/Nurgle? We know that they are the greatest influences in the warp but does their influence cover 99% or 10% of the warp? In the first case, its hard to imagine anything existing that isn't tied to one of the big four. In the latter case, the sky is the limit with possibilities of other powerful warp beings who might give their support.

What people quickly forget when they talk about the gods is that there are actualla other non-chaos gods. The Eldar had a whole pantheon, before they were all killed by Slaanesh and now only two remain. The Ork gods Gork and Mork are described as insanely powerful, laughung while shrugging off the attacks by the other gods. The reason might be that Orks are very dedicated (even if mostly indirectly and automatically) and fuelling their gods with Waaagh energy. However, the Chaos gods generally seem to be the dominant entities in the Warp (the Ork gods do not seem to be doing much...).

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

The Emperor is the dominant entity of the warp! Legatus you renegade

[Blitzkreig]

Minigun, I will explain this as best I can.

 

You are attempting to define the truely unidentifiable. It is an impossible task.

 

It is possible to define, even worship a singular facet of Chaos for you need only realise that they encompass their chief emotions or principles, but also their diametric opposites. Chaos by its very definition is both everything and nothing. Khorne may be the god of Bloodletting and War but at the same time he must be the god of Life-giving and Peace for without one facet, the other cannot exist.

 

Chaos Undivivded is a much different being. Lorgar has achieved Daemonhood not because of his worship of Chaos, but because he gave the Gods the greatest gift of all. He bought Chaos to the Human race. Chaos Undivided is truely everything and nothing, each facet is merely a part of a greater whole, gaining Daemonhood from one god is just as much a measure of worship of the others as it is of the one. For in the end, all things of chaos ecompass one another and all the ruinous powers are tied together.

 

The followers of the Blood God decapitate heads (Khorne worship) and indulge in the feeling (Slaanesh worship) while allowing disease to thrive in their wake (Nurgle worship) and are changing too manyn things to mention (Tzeentch worship).

 

The Gods do not realise it, but when a single power grants a champion daemonhood they all do. Each of the emotions that drives them on are linked. When the gods as a whole grant Daemonhood it is because a Champion was shrewd enough to see this.

 

And I kinow that is bloody confusing.

[minigun762]

Thanks for the replies. I will admit that I'm still confused about the whole thing but as Blitzkrieg said, it might just be an excercise in futility.

 

Overall I'm torn about the whole thing because I've always gravitated towards the Undivided Legions because they aren't as one dimensional as the 4 Cult Legions but that also means its harder to really grasp their interaction (or lack thereof) with Chaos. I think that for myself, I'm shifting my view that the four dark gods are simply the biggest fish in a VERY big pond, which means there is alot out there that is outside their respective domains.

[Bulwyf]

There are more gods in the warp than the big four. The Emperor and his saints are there. Essentially every emotion would have an intelligent warp entity/god at this point. I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen GW define more gods: a god for hope (I'm not talking about Tzeentch), a god for love, courage, fear, hate, etc. They all exist. Liber Chaotica pretty much spells it out: if enough intelligent creatures believe in something at some point it manifests in the warp.

[caboosebe]

Well, we are talking about the GRIM DARK future. Don't think something would fit like: and the god of love shot his arrows at slaanesh and khorne, and they fell in love. The one in its grose way of eternal lust, while the other showed his love by chopping of the others head.

I can understand that there are more Gods, but it just doesn't fit, and GW doesn't feel the need to define more. Nobody likes the hello kitty space marines with flowers on their heads and stuff and shouting: 'We love Xenos'

As for courage, fear and hate, those are also sorts of into the Big 4, and love can be, with a very big swing ofcourse be Nurgle. He did after all fall in love himself.

[Bulwyf]

Well, we are talking about the GRIM DARK future. Don't think something would fit like: and the god of love shot his arrows at slaanesh and khorne, and they fell in love. The one in its grose way of eternal lust, while the other showed his love by chopping of the others head.

I can understand that there are more Gods, but it just doesn't fit, and GW doesn't feel the need to define more. Nobody likes the hello kitty space marines with flowers on their heads and stuff and shouting: 'We love Xenos'

As for courage, fear and hate, those are also sorts of into the Big 4, and love can be, with a very big swing ofcourse be Nurgle. He did after all fall in love himself.

 

Where did I say I wanted to see hippy Space Marines? I just pointed out that by their very own rules there should be a wide pantheon range of "good" and "bad" gods based on good and bad emotions plus specific gods created by intelligent creatures religions and belief systems.

[Prot]

I have always seen Chaos as being far more -vast- than we are typically exposed to in the fiction we've seen so far... I think it's far larger than we think and if you limit your thoughts to the current ruling body of the ether, I think you're cutting yourself short.

 

That being said....

 

But I look at it deeper and things don't make nearly as much sense. For example:

1) The whole issue with how you can become an Undivided Daemon Prince when ascenion is always tied to a specific god.

 

A Specific God. The term confuses me a bit. I think any entity with 'sufficient' power can grant powers. "We" might call it 'Daemon Prince' but in essence we are talking about so called gifts from entities within the warp. It seems a large enough gift gets called 'Daemon Princehood' but what does that really mean? I think it's a made up category that just means: "I got a lot of stuff from a Chaos dude, and I'm pretty strong now and can co-exist in the warp now'. Don't limit your understanding of "Daemon Prince" from the 3rd edition codex. My understanding? An entity has a vested interest in you. It fosters a mutual beneficial relationship (either long or short term), as a result you may receive a wealth of gifts and depending on the source, the nature of those gifts could be anything great or small.

 

2) How do you get gifts/support from god B when you were helping god A the other day by killing god B's minions or twarting god B's plan? One can only assume that the dark gods don't forget or forgive.

 

Each of these "gods" has an agenda. Have you ever worked for a company for a period, collected a paycheque and then went to work for another company in the same field? How is it any different? You complete a task for McDonalds, you get a paycheque. BUT it turns out you are sick of serving the French Fry God "Rotten Ronnie" so you cross the street to bask in the glorious form of the new fast food queen: Wendy. You work for her for a while, get a paycheque,... and decide you like Subway much better, even if Jared is a bit of a douche.

 

It might be a crude comparison but we are talking about doing something for payment here, completing a task, and moving on....

 

3) How much of the warp is not directly controlled by Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch/Nurgle? We know that they are the greatest influences in the warp but does their influence cover 99% or 10% of the warp? In the first case, its hard to imagine anything existing that isn't tied to one of the big four. In the latter case, the sky is the limit with possibilities of other powerful warp beings who might give their support.

 

This goes back to my first comment. You answer the question yourself. I believe Chaos is a VERY unexplored area fiction wise. Why is that? I believe it is to keep it a somewhat... 'mysterious' place. But that being said it hasn't been explored all that much. There is some VERY good fodder in Graham McNeil's Thousand Sons. It seems even someone as mighty as the Thousand Sons Primarch is swayed by an entity not directly tied to the 'big 4'. Like I said, the warp is a lot bigger than you're questions seem to think. You gotta think outside of what's already been presented in some of the fiction.

 

As a related story. A while ago my rather large Iron Warrior force was in a massive mega battle. I generaled it.... and won! I was asked to general the next one the next year.... I didn't want to so I made a story that had my Iron Warrior dude visited by a warp entity.... and offered something he couldn't refuse in exchange for defeating Imperial Forces yet again. (The 'prize' wasn't as obvious as it sounds, but you get the point.)

 

You can do stuff like this for yourself, and create your OWN mechanics for YOUR relationships (working and entertainment based) in the warp. This in part is why I like HURON so much. I think he has some seriously wild going on with some big players in the warp. His personality lends himself to juggling these... thin alliances for his causes. He must be doing something right because he doesn't seem to belong to one of the big 4 as you put it, and he's got some serious assets and a sizable army/fleet.

 

So there you go. There are lots of avenues for you to go down and create your own background. It's one of the best things of the 40K universe... it's just so... open.

[Tiemo18]

If im correct there is a 5th chaos god that controls all the less rage pestilence change and lust parts of the warp hes like the middle managment of the warp

[caboosebe]

Funny enough, the last issue of White Dwarf gives 'an answer' to your question.

To keep it short, they say that Chaos is created by the thoughts and feelings of a being, and that this is an endless circle.

For example: Imperial Guard Bob has never seen a Blood Letter in his life, but he did hear stories about it and has got a faint discription how they look, slender, red , angry, etc etc.

Now on a Chaotic day, a warp rift seems to open and a Blood Letter jumps out in front of Bob. The Blood Letter asumes the form of what Bob has of it in his head, slender, red, angry etc.

Bob sees this and his image of the blood letter is confirming itself, and thus the blood letter itself is growing more and more in this form, and endless circle.

 

 

Morale of the stories (according to White Dwarf) is that Chaos is something created by the minds of beings, but at the same time as a mind of its own. Nobody can see into the World of Chaos without being driven mad by the things we can't understand. Our minds try to find logic in the place where there is none to be had. There is no 'real' in it. The reason why there can be an individed prince is not to be understood (again, according to White Dwarf)

 

 

You can also look at this from an outsiders point of vieuw:

It is a scapegoat for GW to justify evrything they do with Chaos and Daemons, if there is no solid proof for anything, evrything is possible. They can invent anything they want, or keep the gamer intrested in this mysterious thing that is never fully explained.

[minigun762]

Prot: That is a very useful way of looking at things. I thought the McDonalds/Subway analogy was pretty humorous as well.

 

Caboosebe: I also agree with your assessment of Chaos having a cyclical, self-serving nature. It seems to function very much like a feedback loop.

 

Tiemo18: Where did you hear that? Its new to me.

[Rain]

Pretty sure there is no "fifth" Chaos god, there are just innumerable minor entities that tool around the warp collecting followers and whatnot. An interesting metaphor to consider is that psychic energy is like water spread over an uneven surface. The water flows down from the thoughts of sentient beings, and certain types of thought form indentations in the "floor" onto which the water is being poured and so larger and larger pools form there and as they do, the erosion from the extra water pouring down deepens the hole further, causing even more water to flow in. The deepest pools are those created by roughly speaking: anger, ambition, despondency, and depravity so those are the most powerful gods, but remember that within each individual "sea" the seafloor is uneven as well, meaning that certain gods might emphasize more than one attribute, and each to varying degrees.

 

Furthermore, the entire surface of this metaphysical realm is covered in water (in other words all of the warp is made of uh, warp stuff) so all of the "seas" are connected, and are merely the very deepest parts of a larger and unified ocean that is Chaos Undivided. Which really kind of explains what Chaos Undivided is, it is the entire body of water that makes up all of the warp and includes the wide and deep patches of the four gods as well as the other smaller wells and even the indistinct shallows in between. Kind of like a metaphor for the human psyche as well, we all have many different attitudes and predilections, some even conflict or seem to contradict one another, but they all make each of us and are therefore by definition unified, which of course makes sense as we create Chaos.

[Prot]

Prot: That is a very useful way of looking at things. I thought the McDonalds/Subway analogy was pretty humorous as well.

 

Well thanks.... That actually came out as I intended, and I wasn't even drinking.. <_<

Seriously though, I have thought about such things since someone leaked some old internal GW background info to me. I can't remember what it was called, but it kind of tied the whole forty K universe together with the idea of the warp, chaos and the star child.

 

I chose to look at Chaos and Chaos marines as a very powerful alliance that have some really odd, varying and sometimes, very potent results.

[hummus]

there used to be malal who may now be malice the anti chaos/anarchy god

[minigun762]

Rain: Its interesting that you use the water/ocean perspective because I was rereading the Daemon codex and it mentions a great area/region called the Formless Wastes (among other things) and the instant picture I got was that of the deep ocean. Seemingly endless and lacking significant activity but full of pockets of strange and sometimes powerful beings.

[RapatoR]

Well personally I think that Chaos Undivided can basically be seen from three points of view:

1. Serving to big four, all of them at once.

2. Not serving to any of them.

3. Serving to a lesser god/entity.

A good points has been raised there, for getting gifts: Doing things that please chaos at all (Pertuabo became DP after massacring Imperial Fists) - some things just pelase them all. Serving to gods in particular way (I would add there that turning from worshipping or serving one god to another may anger previous patron, but he can hardly punish him as champions is under patronage of another god.). Even slaying ones god chapmion by undivided one may not result in punishing him as three remaining gods might still protect him on this occasion. In fact, slaying particular gods champion may impress the god as well. They might see his deed as impressive because: "My champ was so freakin cool and this guy just slain him... He is even better than him. Impressive." And we should consider a third option too, as lesser beings or gods arent maybe so strong as big four, but they have to care just for few of their chapions while big four has dozens of them, so champs of lesser gods/beings may be sometimes stronger then chaps of big 4. Its a pitty that nothink is known about them... I also dislike, how much love gives GW to chaos undivided compared to big 4... ASAIK only udivided deamons in Chaos codex are furies.

[Legatus]

Well personally I think that Chaos Undivided can basically be seen from three points of view:

(...)

2. Not serving to any of them.

That would not be "Chaos Undivided", that would be simply "not Chaos". You do have the option to not upgrade your CSM squads with any Chaos Icon at all. But the Undivided bonus is quite usefull, so people usually do do that.

[RapatoR]

Well personally I think that Chaos Undivided can basically be seen from three points of view:

(...)

2. Not serving to any of them.

That would not be "Chaos Undivided", that would be simply "not Chaos". You do have the option to not upgrade your CSM squads with any Chaos Icon at all. But the Undivided bonus is quite usefull, so people usually do do that.

Oh my mistake, I meant not serving big four just serving chaos as whole or using it as tool: Damned company of lord Caudos is the best example.

[Guest Cate]

First this is my take on the undivided marines and how they gain power, and I will try to answer the two first question as one.

 

To simplify everything to the extreme, you could look at the chaos gods as lords over separate realms as kings and princes in the medieval Europe. The four major gods could be translate as powerful countries, England, France, Russia and Spain, the rest of the gods are minor powers like the city states of Germany, Denmark, Italy etc. etc.. Chaos Marines who are connected with one of the major gods are similar to the standing armies of these countries, it's easier for them to be knighted or claim power, aka getting daemonic stuff in the chaos realms. The undivided legions and more like mercenaries who have to haggle with the gods to get stuff and gets to be employed by them when they are needed, they can get a contract with one god one century and the next they get a contract with another one. This is fair and square for all parties involved. A chaos champion might be so bold get a daemonic weapon, more daemonic powers so one day he can be counted as a daemon prince. It was easier to understand this with the old codex. Even the lesser chaos entities can grant a Chaos champion gifts as they are not powerless.

 

Hope my late night rambling don't confuse even more.

 

Controlling the warp? I don't think the gods control any part of it as it shifts and morphs in all sorts of dimensions, they are just there drawing powers from it as do all the other gods.

 

For your last question I would like to say, I think everyone can view as they please as there is no real answer in chaos, specially if big bird is involved, if I hadn't aligned my marines to one of the four major ones I would probably make up one god and call them undivided. As a dedicated Slaanesh player I get bored and distracted easily so in the future I might switch my marines towards the undivided theme. My guards are Undivided, but they on the other hand see my daemon prince as a god, but they don't accept Slaanesh as their true deity.

 

Cheers Cate

[Culebras]

1) The whole issue with how you can become an Undivided Daemon Prince when ascenion is always tied to a specific god.

2) How do you get gifts/support from god B when you were helping god A the other day by killing god B's minions or twarting god B's plan? One can only assume that the dark gods don't forget or forgive.

3) How much of the warp is not directly controlled by Khorne/Slaanesh/Tzeentch/Nurgle? We know that they are the greatest influences in the warp but does their influence cover 99% or 10% of the warp? In the first case, its hard to imagine anything existing that isn't tied to one of the big four. In the latter case, the sky is the limit with possibilities of other powerful warp beings who might give their support.

4) Reading things like the Liber Chaotica, it just seems easier to have all of Chaos split amongst the four gods since they seem to attract the majority of the attention anyway. I'm not saying its better, just easier to view it that way. Part of the reason I say that is its so easy to compare the dark gods to the 4 classical elements that are fantasy staples (earth/wind/water/fire).

 

1) I don't believe ascension is strictly tied to a particular god, its just that gaining the favor of a god helps you smooth over some of the bumps and avoid the inconvenient things like your left leg growing a mind of its own. Consider, a champion devoted to one god might have to perform several deeds to earn their favor and become a Prince (like claiming 8 unique skulls for Khorne from 8 different battle fields on 8 separate worlds). On the other hand, an undivided might need to perform one or more deeds to earn each of the chaos gods' favor (which actually sounds pretty cool cause you can say, I'm going to steal a book for tzeentch and then go poison an entire planet for Nurgle)

2) how can you have bloodthirsters and daemonites in the same army as a demon's players? the funny thing about chaos is they don't act logically. Sometimes they give boons to their enemies because they are angry at their champions for failing. Or they could just find the idea hilarious in an ironic fashion. Or they could just be nuts.

3) a whale or a shark doesn't control the ocean, they just are a lot more dangerous in it, and they can survive there. We, on the other hand, can't. what might look like control to us is simply in their natural environment. A Whale can swamp a boat with a wave created by its tail, but that doesn't mean it can stop a tidal wave. To answer your second part, the Chaos gods are at the top of the demonic food chain. Nothing is bigger than them (at least that we know). That said, the warp is intended to defy limitation. so there could be something big out there, unseen that is working on plans of its own. Or there could be a host of lesser demons who are unaligned with any god but have dreams of divinity for themselves.

4) ah yes, but remember Slanesh only appeared with the death of the Eldar. Where was he/she/it before that? also, furies and soul grinders don't belong to any one side. Its easier to say that the big four represent the most common elements in the 40k universe: violence, death, superstition, and a secret desires/ambition. Consider that there are also likely daemonic entities of Intolerance, ignorance, and fear floating around. The wonderful thing about chaos is that it is not meant to be easily divided or explained.

[jma037]

Just throwing out another view point. There are no chaos gods. The warp is a natural occurance like the weather. Worshiping Chaos Undivided is simply drawing the energy of the warp and manifesting them in real space.