Grey Knights Fandex v2.0

[Valerian]

Fellow Daemonhunters,

 

Upon discovering the Tempus Fugitives campaign pack for The Great Scouring, I decided to do some major overhauling to revise my pure Grey Knights Fandex (a continual work in progress). I borrowed a lot of the ideas from the Fugitives folks (thanks guys!), who had done a great job of crafting a simple, but very effective army list for the Knights, and incorporated many of the concepts we had developed during the feedback phase of v1.0. In addition, I have included a few of the major items that have been recently revealed by Stickmonkey and Harry over at Warseer regarding the upcoming Grey Knights codex (the real one) that might be released next year.

 

The purpose for this thread is to gather feedback, and post Battle Reports for any folks able to conduct some playtesting. If you are interested at all, please look here for the revised Fandex.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Oiad]

Bud, that TF campaign book is done purely basing Grey Knights on C:SM rules, wargear and abilities because it's the closest codex to compare GKs to in 5th Ed. Hence they try and make up for the Aegis abilities by just giving them psychic hoods. NFWs become relic blades, the use of SM powers and HQ units and so on. You're probably aware of that already so hopefully you can find a middle ground between that and the old GK codex to be more accurate. For example, the Aegis was (and by many is still presumed to be) based on the mental defence that provides protection agaisnt psychic powers, not an alternative name to Artificer. But you could still keep the ability and have a 2+ save rather than just give them psychic hoods.

 

Also, I'd imagine that 10K+ years on that Garro and co. must be dead (along with pretty much all of those characters from that book) and have been replaced by truebred GK heroes. Not former SM captains, tagging along for the ride. GKs were still new and finding their feet at the time, with very few heroes compare to everyone else. Probably explains why they no dynamo-characters at that point. If you have to use characters from BL books then the characters from Ben Counter's *ugh* Grey Knight's series would be more in line with M41 times...

 

...otherwise, keep up the good work.

[Gentlemanloser]

Garro still has;

 

Icon of the Just, Storm Shield

 

Which is redundant (and might shave some points off him?).

 

There's no Librairan Dreadnought? I thought a version of the Furioso would be a shoe-in for the Grey Knights. B)

 

I also like the Runic Armour of the Space Wolves, and suppose our Aegis armour should apply the same 5+ save, and we should be able to use Psychic Hoods on top. If the Spaces Wolves can have Psychic proof armour, then they should have probably got it from us! :)

 

Oiad, there's nothing wrong with including dead historical Characters. Like Tycho or Eldrad. :P

[Oiad]

Yeah, but they're recently dead heroes. Not 'dead for ten millennia' dead heroes. Heck, using Aurellian or Mandulis‎ would be more relevant and they're dead too.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, any new current Special Characters are going to be newly created folk from GW. As we don't have any existing fluff (I'll scream blue murder if Alaric is made a Justicar updgrade...), so using the old canon we know until then shouldn't be a problem. B)

 

Did anyone else catch Garviel? Only upgrade without a background. Looks like TF are of the mind that Loken lives! :)

[Oiad]

I'll scream blue murder if GW make any Ben Counter characters at all! <_<

 

If using Ben Counter characters isn't canon then using those characters isn't exactly canon either. After all, TF deny any of their rules being official and all Eisenstien characters come from the misinformed world of BL books too.

 

The best thing to do for now would be to just use Stern. Boring? Maybe but at least he's the only one there is something official on and is easy to transmute from 3rd to 5th.

[Valerian]

Thanks for the feedback so far, fellas.

 

@Oiad,

Understand the formula used by the TF guys, and the historical scenario using Eisenstien heroes. I'll be tweaking a few things, and intend for the Fandex to represent "modern" Grey Knights. I didn't change the upgrade/special characters names yet, because it was after midnight, and I was ready to wrap this up.

 

As for the Aegis, I am for keeping the 2+ Save of Articifer Armour (it helps provide the survivability we'd have to have to field 50+ point models. The old Aegis rules were almost exactly the same as Psychic Hoods, so I figured that I would just integrate them as standard into everyone's armour. I'll go back and look at Runic Armour again, and will probably split Psychic Hoods back out as a seperate upgrade.

 

@Gentlemanloser,

I left Garro with Storm Shield and Icon just for the fluff that he should still have an Icon as the Supreme Grand Master; I tried not to overcharge. He is expensive, but also a monster on the field.

 

Good recommendation on considering Runic Armour, will get to that today.

 

Also, there will be a Psyker upgrade for the Venerable Dreadnought; I'll try to finish that up today.

 

If you have suggestions for replacement names for the upgrade characters, let me know.

 

Also, I'll try to make a revised version of Stern, who'll be a Brother-Captain Commander in an HQ slot.

 

Thanks again,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Ignoring any of the Ben Counter stuff, as mentioned, there's Aurellian and Mandulis from the First War for Armageddon's clash with Angron.

[RexTalon]

I'll scream blue murder if GW make any Ben Counter characters at all! :)

 

If using Ben Counter characters isn't canon then using those characters isn't exactly canon either. After all, TF deny any of their rules being official and all Eisenstien characters come from the misinformed world of BL books too.

 

The best thing to do for now would be to just use Stern. Boring? Maybe but at least he's the only one there is something official on and is easy to transmute from 3rd to 5th.

I would like to direct your attention to the past few IG codecs and the Dan Abnett inspired characters. All of this has happened before and it will all happen again. [/cylon]

[Oiad]

@Oiad,

Understand the formula used by the TF guys, and the historical scenario using Eisenstien heroes. I'll be tweaking a few things, and intend for the Fandex to represent "modern" Grey Knights. I didn't change the upgrade/special characters names yet, because it was after midnight, and I was ready to wrap this up.

 

As for the Aegis, I am for keeping the 2+ Save of Articifer Armour (it helps provide the survivability we'd have to have to field 50+ point models. The old Aegis rules were almost exactly the same as Psychic Hoods, so I figured that I would just integrate them as standard into everyone's armour. I'll go back and look at Runic Armour again, and will probably split Psychic Hoods back out as a seperate upgrade.

Ahh, so it was al because you were in a bit of a tired rush about. I'd probably let you off with that excuse. :P

 

As for the Aegis/Runic Weapon debate I prefer the last option though there isn't too much between them. It's just with Runic Weapons you know the score you need to beat already. Psychic Hoods just seem a little unfair to me and would crank the costs higher.

 

I would like to direct your attention to the past few IG codecs and the Dan Abnett inspired characters. All of this has happened before and it will all happen again.

Don't say such evil words. Believe in them and they'll come true! :P

:P

[Valerian]

Okay, just had a chance to run through again and do some updates based on the thread so far.

 

I've moved The Aegis back to the Grey Knights Army Special Rules section and just made it a flat 4+ Invulnerable Save against enemy psychic attacks (just like the Space Wolves' Runic Armour, but a 4+, instead of 5+. The option to buy Psychic Hoods is back for the HQ choices, and one of the unit upgrades already comes with one, so if you choose to buy a Hood for someone, then an enemy power has to get past the Hood, and then past The Aegis to actually affect the Knights.

 

I've added details to The Armory section, instead of just referring you back to Codex Space Marines or Codex Daemonhunters.

 

I've removed two of the upgrade characters, and renamed the others, and moved some abilities around a bit.

 

I've changed Garro to Mandulis, and added Stern as a special character HQ choice.

 

The only thing that I wanted to do today that I haven't gotten done yet is to add the Psyker option for the Venerable Dreadnoughts, but that will have to wait until this evening sometime, or maybe tomorrow morning.

 

If you are up for it, please take another look and let me know what you think.

 

V

[Brovius]

With the 4+ Invuln against psychic powers, how about making it useable for Perils of the Warp, also?

So all units have a 4+ against Perils tests, and models that already have an Invulnerable save, save on a 4+ but do not need to reroll

[Gentlemanloser]

How about some protection for making Perils tests? Maybe a purchasable upgrade or wargear. Something to Stop Eldar and 'Nids making us take them on 3d6..

[Valerian]

With the 4+ Invuln against psychic powers, how about making it useable for Perils of the Warp, also?

So all units have a 4+ against Perils tests, and models that already have an Invulnerable save, save on a 4+ but do not need to reroll

 

 

How about some protection for making Perils tests? Maybe a purchasable upgrade or wargear. Something to Stop Eldar and 'Nids making us take them on 3d6..

 

 

Already got that right here fellas, in the army special rules section:

 

Rites of Exorcism

The psychic purity the Grey Knights and their sonorous chants of detestation are nigh intolerable to daemons and other Warp‐inhabiting creatures. If a Grey Knights psyker suffers a wound from Perils of the Warp, roll a d6; on a roll of 3+ the wound is ignored.

 

With the Aegis granting 4+ Saves against psychic attacks, the availability of Psychic Hoods as upgrade purchases for our two Headquarters choices, and the 3+ Save to avoid Perils of the Warp wounds, I believe the Grey Knights will be extremely well-equipped to deal with Daemons, the denizens of the Warp, and rogue psychers, as is befitting.

 

Additionally, although the Grand Master and Brother-Captain Commander (the HQ choices) will be casting their own powers, when squads cast their powers, they get to designate one of their members as the "caster" each time they make an attempt. Every Grey Knight has two (or more) Wounds now, so even if someone fails their Rites of Exorcism save and take a Perils Wound, they've still got another and won't be removed as a casualty. The next time the squad has an opportunity to use a psychic power, you just need to designate a different caster in the unit, so an untimely Perils Wound won't cause a casualty.

 

This is why I abandoned the idea of the "passive powers" that we had been working on, to make squad powers work like they do for Eldar Warlocks. Since there really isn't a danger to causing immediate casualties from failed Perils' Saves, like there would have been for single-Wound models, I just went back to letting both Independent Characters and the Squads picking from the same list.

 

One additonal change that you might not have noticed - I added a slightly modified version of Gate of Infinity to the list of available psychic powers to give footslogging Grey Knights some additional tactical mobility.

 

V

[Valerian]

Fellas,

 

I got a lot of work done today on the Fandex. I completely revised the format for the entire thing to make it easier to read/follow, and I threw in a few pictures, just for fun. I'm going to do a little more format changes tomorrow, then after that it should just be content changes and points adjustments.

 

Oh, and I went ahead and made all Venerable Dreadnoughts into psychers with a single power per turn, and a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon that acts as a Force Weapon (i.e. the Venerable Dread can spend its power to cause Instant Death if they want to). Of course, most things would die to a Strength 10 hit anyway, but I added it just for completion. Should I adjust this to make it a Strength 6 Weapon like the Fuiroso's?

 

Depending on how much more feedback I get on the product, my next step is to open a thread up on the "Homegrown Rules" subforum and open this up to a wider audience. I want to make sure fellow Grey Knights players are mostly happy with it first, though.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Oiad]

Hehe, someone really likes using large fonts at the beginning of each paragraph. :D

[Valerian]

Hehe, someone really likes using large fonts at the beginning of each paragraph. :lol:

 

Ha! Yeah, just an experiment. I'll probably change them back to normal.

 

Let me know if you have any other feedback. At this point I've probably gotten "snow-blind" from staring at it and will have missed some glaring issues.

 

V

[Gyson_Vore]

Just as a thought, you may want to change the AP value of the Machine Lance to a 6, as by the rules, AP - always glances, and there might be some one out there that will try to lawyer that point so it will always function like crew shaken. Again, just think it might make it a little more defined... Otherwise, it looks good so far.

[Valerian]

Just as a thought, you may want to change the AP value of the Machine Lance to a 6, as by the rules, AP - always glances, and there might be some one out there that will try to lawyer that point so it will always function like crew shaken. Again, just think it might make it a little more defined... Otherwise, it looks good so far.

 

Great recommendation, just fixed. I'd like to make it fairly "lawyer-proof", which is why the community's feedback is so helpful.

 

Thanks again,

 

V

[Brovius]

I kind of disagree with a Justicar having the same amount of wounds as a Grand Master.

The problem with the new format for it, is that people might not want to play against an army entirely consisting of multi-wound Space Marines.

That's why you don't see the Movie Marine list in use that often

[Valerian]

I kind of disagree with a Justicar having the same amount of wounds as a Grand Master.

 

The project for the last two days was revamping the format to make it easier for everyone to read and understand. The project for the next few days is to go back and make sure the unit profiles and points costs make sense. I agree that 3 Wounds is too much for the Justicars and Brother-Captains, so I'll be adjusting those today. I also need to do some more work to differentiate the Brother-Captain Commander and the Grand Master.

 

The problem with the new format for it, is that people might not want to play against an army entirely consisting of multi-wound Space Marines.

That's why you don't see the Movie Marine list in use that often

 

I really don't want them to be like the OTT Movie Marines, and think that in the end there will be good balance to this list. They will be more formidable than any other Marines, certainly, but not so powerful that another army can't still prevail. When the Stormraven and Land Raiders are the cheapest units in the army, you know that they will always be outmanned, even when playing against DeathWing or LoganWing armies. I think some players will appreciate the chance to play a list that is balanced, but still allows you to play Marines that are somewhat more in line with the fluff, in that they can take on other armies at a 10 to 1 ratio disadvantage and still have an even chance of coming out on top.

 

If you prefer the older version of the Fandex, it is still available on my Blog, and you are more than welcome to keep using it. My efforts, for the near term, however, will be on making version 2.0 a better product.

 

Thanks again, Brovius, for participating in the process. I know that you got some games in with the original version. Maybe in a few days when I finish fine-tuning of this version your mates will try another couple games with you.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Brovius]

Thanks again, Brovius, for participating in the process. I know that you got some games in with the original version. Maybe in a few days when I finish fine-tuning of this version your mates will try another couple games with you.

 

All's good, anything to help make my Knights army more competitive.

I don't know if you've played it, but I just finished playing Valkyria Chronicles on the PS3, and i must say, those guys got anti-tank right. Guys in heavy, blast-resistant armour, wielding large lances that fire mid-range explosive missile-like projectiles. Quite simply called Lancers ;)

 

Just saying, it would be a really cool and unique (at least among the other 40k armies) way to deal with vehicles, and possibly even heavy infantry, depending on if you give them AP 2 or 3.

 

So I was thinking some stats like either of the following:

Range 18" Strength 8 AP 2 Assault, Lance

 

Range 24" Strength 7 AP 3 Heavy, Lance

 

This version of Grey Knight Lancers (I know there was discussion about jetbike lancers in the Inq. Project) could perhaps be in TDA, or at least have the Relentless USR. Perhaps they could be just like GKTs with Storm Shields (Mounted on their arm for extra protection) using their lances like power-weapons with no strength modifier. So we have a tough-as-nails anti-tank unit, that can fare well in assault, too. Imagine these guys bailing out of an LRC :)

Going by the version 1 fandex, make the Lancers 10 points more than GKTs, 5 for the SS, and 5 to downgrade the NFW into a powerful tank/heavy infantry-busting weapon.

 

These are just some ideas i made up on the spot, feel free to comment and give feedback

[Gentlemanloser]

Have a look at the TF Custodes Katafrakt. <_<

 

They have an option for a Melta Lance that hits as a flamer template and counts as a chain fist in CC.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hopefully this wekend I'll get a chance to test the TF list. I'm planning 2K list that looks somethign like;

 

Garro + 5 Termies (SS and AM) in a Storm Hawk.

 

Loken + 9 PAGK on Bikes.

 

The Idea is to infilrate the Bikes (thanks to removing AA) and have Loken give them Scout for a First turn assault. After a Multi-Melta and Vortex hit. <_< See what lives after that.

 

Then use the Storm Hawk to give my Termis some mobility.

 

Not a lot of minis on the table though... And no FNP, which *really* helps the S Guard.

[Valerian]

Thanks again, Brovius, for participating in the process. I know that you got some games in with the original version. Maybe in a few days when I finish fine-tuning of this version your mates will try another couple games with you.

 

All's good, anything to help make my Knights army more competitive.

I don't know if you've played it, but I just finished playing Valkyria Chronicles on the PS3, and i must say, those guys got anti-tank right. Guys in heavy, blast-resistant armour, wielding large lances that fire mid-range explosive missile-like projectiles. Quite simply called Lancers :)

 

...

 

These are just some ideas i made up on the spot, feel free to comment and give feedback

 

Brovius, although I've got a PS3, I am not familiar with that game (might have to look it up). I think that your idea/recommendation is a good one, but honestly, with the "new" direction that I'm going, I want to avoid a unit that is specifically geared toward anti-tank as those guys that you suggested would be. Instead, I really want to highlight their use of psychic powers to "even the playing field" against vehicles, warmachines, siege engines, etc. This is why I kept "Hammerhand" so they get the 2D6 for AP in close combat, and why I added "Machine Lance", which is useful for temporarily disabling vehicles from a distance, so they can safely approach them and destroy them in close combat. I'm also considering a new psychic power "Sunder", which will essentially add d6 to the AP of the caster's NFW (making AP 6+2d6), and would replace the Hammerhand power. Also, for anti-tank, I've changed how Orbital Bombardment works (a subtle change), that will make a Lance Strike or Melta Torpedo more viable threats against any vehicles that hang out within 2D6 inches of a Bombardment marker. Also, we've got the new Stormraven and its arsenal of anti-vehicle weaponry to add to the AT punch of our Land Raiders and/or Dreadnoughts.

 

Obviously, all of this requires playtesting to see how such a force would fare against a mechanized or tank-heavy opponent, but once some trial runs are accomplished tweaks can be made.

 

Hopefully this wekend I'll get a chance to test the TF list. I'm planning 2K list that looks somethign like;

 

Garro + 5 Termies (SS and AM) in a Storm Hawk.

 

Loken + 9 PAGK on Bikes.

 

The Idea is to infilrate the Bikes (thanks to removing AA) and have Loken give them Scout for a First turn assault. After a Multi-Melta and Vortex hit. ;) See what lives after that.

 

Then use the Storm Hawk to give my Termis some mobility.

 

Holy cow, 16 models plus a single vehicle at 2,000 points; that should be awesome! Let me know how it goes.

 

Not a lot of minis on the table though... And no FNP, which *really* helps the S Guard.

 

Yes, but I would still rather have our 2 Wounds + each than their FNP. Best of luck in that game.

 

V