Grey Knights Fandex v2.0

[Zebub]

Nice take on a GK codex. A very interesting read.

 

There are a couple of things I find odd, though:

Why does GK troops and elite have access to Adamanitine Cloaks while the commanders do not?

As far as I can tell the only place the Teleport Homer is mentioned is in the Genhain entry. No unit has access to it, even though it is in the armoury. Is this intentional?

 

This is why I kept "Hammerhand" so they get the 2D6 for AP in close combat,...

If I read this right, I do not think the entry for Hammerhand in the dex is correct.

 

And in the interest of making it "lawyer proof", I have another couple of things.

 

In Justicar Genhains Perfection Through Coordination special rule you say that it works exactly as if the squad had a Teleport Homer. Now by RAW I would say this means the squad has to be on the table at the start of the turn, but I am not sure that this is the intention?

 

Now I am not at all sure about this, but I think that all blast weapons are fired as scatter 2d6 minus BS? If this is the case, is this what "roll to hit as normal" in the Vortex of Doom entry refers to?

 

Also, I see no rules for Bikes, the Storm Ravens Locator Beacon (Teleport Homer?), Power of the Machine Spirit, and quite a few weapons. I realize that this is a fandex and all, but if you want it "lawyer-proof" this should probably be taken care of. Maybe just a note referring anything not described to the SM codex or something.

 

I hope this helps!

[Brovius]

The Lancers aren't particularly anti-tank, their weapons should be strong enough to take out Power armour-equivalent. They sacrifice their CC strength for high-powered mid-range weaponry. Given the frequency of Mech Guard and Space Mechrines, GKs need all the help they can get.

 

The point is, we need units that can take out vehicles, but also be able to take on those pesky heavy infantry at some range. They can still take on enemies in CC, but are less capable than a GKT with NFW and SS. On the other hand, they are devastating against vehicles and anything outside of TDA or equivalent. We get some anti-tank, and we are making the Grey Knights less like grey Space Marines in the process. In the end though, it is your fandex, i just think it would be a cool idea to implement it.

 

Valerian, the game mechanics in Valkyria Chronicles is kinda like Space Hulk in 3D, with anime visuals and set in a big parody of WWII.

The continent is called Europa, for instance. There are work camps for Darcsens (Black hair with a bluish tinge), and there is a small, neutral country being invaded by the evil expansionistic Empire (who are in the East, surprisingly). I really enjoyed it, it's a strategy/RPG type game, you have Command Points to use to move your soldiers around, where you zoom down into 3rd person. I really enjoyed it, there really needs to be more games out there with similar mechanics.

 

Well that's enough detouring from the topic, but i'd like to play-test the Lancers in the old fandex (it's much easier to get people to play against it without screaming "cheese"). Do you think 50 points per model is enough for a GKT with one of the weapon profiles mentioned earlier, and a Storm Shield?

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, but I would still rather have our 2 Wounds + each than their FNP. Best of luck in that game.

 

:) I'll let you know how it goes! :P And if the low mini count is really detrimental.

 

Relentless Multi-Melta's FTW! (I think my largest weakness is going to be Walkers/Ironclads in CC. Hopefully the two MM or two Vortexs can disable them before I get tarpitted by any. But I should have the speed to avoid CC with them.)

[Valerian]

Nice take on a GK codex. A very interesting read.

 

Thanks!

 

There are a couple of things I find odd, though:

Why does GK troops and elite have access to Adamanitine Cloaks while the commanders do not?

Er....uh...that's a good question; fixed.

As far as I can tell the only place the Teleport Homer is mentioned is in the Genhain entry. No unit has access to it, even though it is in the armoury. Is this intentional?

Fixed.

This is why I kept "Hammerhand" so they get the 2D6 for AP in close combat,...

If I read this right, I do not think the entry for Hammerhand in the dex is correct.

 

I just forgot what Hammerhand does. Since it is just Sx2, which isn't all that great against vehicles, I think that I will scrap it and replace it with Sunder (S6+2D6 for AP).

 

And in the interest of making it "lawyer proof", I have another couple of things.

 

In Justicar Genhains Perfection Through Coordination special rule you say that it works exactly as if the squad had a Teleport Homer. Now by RAW I would say this means the squad has to be on the table at the start of the turn, but I am not sure that this is the intention?

Yes, the other squad does need to already be on the table; I adjusted the wording hopefully to maybe make it clearer.

 

Now I am not at all sure about this, but I think that all blast weapons are fired as scatter 2d6 minus BS? If this is the case, is this what "roll to hit as normal" in the Vortex of Doom entry refers to?

Yes, I adjusted the wording now, thanks.

 

Also, I see no rules for Bikes, the Storm Ravens Locator Beacon (Teleport Homer?), Power of the Machine Spirit, and quite a few weapons. I realize that this is a fandex and all, but if you want it "lawyer-proof" this should probably be taken care of. Maybe just a note referring anything not described to the SM codex or something.

I'll add those in this afternoon.

I hope this helps!

Definitely, yes, thanks much! I really appreciate the fine-tooth comb review; that is exactly what I needed.

 

Well that's enough detouring from the topic, but i'd like to play-test the Lancers in the old fandex (it's much easier to get people to play against it without screaming "cheese"). Do you think 50 points per model is enough for a GKT with one of the weapon profiles mentioned earlier, and a Storm Shield?

 

Maybe adjust to S8, AP2, Assault 2 and try them at 55 pts apiece. They are giving up their NFW's but they are getting Storm Shields and a new "better than a Plasma Gun" weapon. I think that justifies +15 at least, maybe +20. See what your mates think. Understand your buddies maybe preferring the old version, but they might want to try you against the new version, just to get used to what might be on the horizon : )

 

Yes, but I would still rather have our 2 Wounds + each than their FNP. Best of luck in that game.

 

:) I'll let you know how it goes! :P And if the low mini count is really detrimental.

 

Relentless Multi-Melta's FTW! (I think my largest weakness is going to be Walkers/Ironclads in CC. Hopefully the two MM or two Vortexs can disable them before I get tarpitted by any. But I should have the speed to avoid CC with them.)

 

Yeah, hopefully so. You've got one Multi-melta on the Storm Hawk, right? Where is the other one? If your MM's don't keep you from getting locked by Walkers, Garro has a Melta-Bomb at least. You should be able to easily avoid them with the Bikes, but if the Storm Hawk gets destroyed or Immobilized you might have trouble. I am really looking forward to seeing how your 15 or 16 guys do in a 2K game.

 

 

@Everyone - Last nights work was focused on tweaking points and balance; I went through each unit to make sure the standard gear, upgrade options, and points cost for everything makes sense. Please take a look through that and let me know if you think it looks fair. If anything, I've tried to lean toward more expensive when in doubt because it is a Fandex I don't want potential opponents to be able to complain that we are getting too much for nothing.

 

Best regards,

 

V

[Brovius]

It's more like a Plasma Lance, that can be used as a standard Power Weapon in CC. It is a bit different to the Plas-PW models in other armies.

Maybe have the range capped at 18" and remove (or hinder) the ability to deepstrike them in, so they aren't too powerful. Still, a few S7 Lance shots is still not that incredible, penetrating a LR as easy as a short-range Lascannon, and we all know how many LCs a Guard army can field...

 

So 55 points each is a good price? I'm inclined to say that if the weapon drops to Assault 1, it could retain the Lance special rule.

Let me know what you think, and i'll try and playtest it this weekend

[Aeddon]

The way I read your writeup for Grand Master Mandulis it looks like he knows all of the psychic powers. Is this intentional?

[Valerian]

It's more like a Plasma Lance, that can be used as a standard Power Weapon in CC. It is a bit different to the Plas-PW models in other armies.

Maybe have the range capped at 18" and remove (or hinder) the ability to deepstrike them in, so they aren't too powerful. Still, a few S7 Lance shots is still not that incredible, penetrating a LR as easy as a short-range Lascannon, and we all know how many LCs a Guard army can field...

 

So 55 points each is a good price? I'm inclined to say that if the weapon drops to Assault 1, it could retain the Lance special rule.

Let me know what you think, and i'll try and playtest it this weekend

 

Oh, I forgot about the Lance power for the weapon. How about:

 

Range 18", S7, AP2, Assault1, Lance

 

That would make them relatively short ranged, effective against enemy vehicles of all types, as well as Elite Infantry (like other Terminators). I think that you'd have to go for at least 55 points for this, though, especially if the Lances still act as a Power Weapon in close combat (maybe do that only if they didn't shoot in that turn, kinda like Ork Burnas).

 

The way I read your writeup for Grand Master Mandulis it looks like he knows all of the psychic powers. Is this intentional?

 

Actually, I've written it such that every Psyker unit knows all of the powers. Mandulis can use up to 3 per turn, regular Grand Masters up to 2 per turn, and Brother-Captain Commanders, Terminator Squad, Grey Knights Squads, and Venerable Dreadnoughts just 1 per turn.

 

I know that it isn't the norm to allow them to know all of the powers, but I think it'll just at tactical options, make them more flexible, and still won't be too overpowered, as none of the psychic powers are too over-the-top.

 

Looking for feedback on this; if y'all think it is too much let me know, and I can adjust what units can "know".

 

Thanks,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Yeah, hopefully so. You've got one Multi-melta on the Storm Hawk, right? Where is the other one? If your MM's don't keep you from getting locked by Walkers, Garro has a Melta-Bomb at least. You should be able to easily avoid them with the Bikes, but if the Storm Hawk gets destroyed or Immobilized you might have trouble. I am really looking forward to seeing how your 15 or 16 guys do in a 2K game.

 

One of the GKT got a MM (instead of a SS), and I've got one on the PAGK Bikers (lolz!). I would have had a second, but I didn't quite have the points to sqeeze in the 10th PAGK fo the Squad. :lol:

 

The Storm Hawk doesn't have a MM, it doesn't have any options :rolleyes:. IIRC it's got a twin linked Autocannon and a Twink Linked HB. And 4 one shot missiles that aren't as good as the Storm Ravens. ;) (AP3 over AP1).

 

Ah! Missed Garro has a Melta Bomb! That will help if the GKT get locked in CC by a Walker! ;)

[Brovius]

Range 18", S7, AP2, Assault1, Lance

 

That would make them relatively short ranged, effective against enemy vehicles of all types, as well as Elite Infantry (like other Terminators). I think that you'd have to go for at least 55 points for this, though, especially if the Lances still act as a Power Weapon in close combat (maybe do that only if they didn't shoot in that turn, kinda like Ork Burnas).

 

I know that it isn't the norm to allow them to know all of the powers, but I think it'll just at tactical options, make them more flexible, and still won't be too overpowered, as none of the psychic powers are too over-the-top.

 

Looking for feedback on this; if y'all think it is too much let me know, and I can adjust what units can "know".

 

Thanks,

 

V

 

That seems fair for the Knight's Lance, i'll give it a try with the local gaming group, in conjunction with the old fandex.

 

About the Psychic powers, I agree that it is better that they all know every power, it would be an absolute nightmare trying to keep tabs on what model knows what power, when you're fielding squads of 10. You'll end up having to memorize the powers known for about 30 models, and that's just in normal games!

Streamlining is the norm with the new codex releases, hence why Tyranid Bioweapons no longer modify the user's strength, and why Termagants are armed with Bolt Pistols now. Having everyone know every power will be much simpler.

[Darkmagi]

Well I just finished a 750 point game and a 1050 point game vs the Chaos Daemons and won handily. My list was:

 

1x Captain Commander

2x 5 man Gk squads with 1 incinerator apiece

 

Total 745

 

his was a 300pt grater daemon character... nurgle based... the entire rest of the army was plague bearers.

 

end total i tabled him by turn 3 game one and game 2 where we upped the points by another 300 i added 2 dreadnoughts and 1 more Gk i tabled him on turn 4. Was really nasty due to wound allocation i didn't lose a single Gk.

[Valerian]

Well I just finished a 750 point game and a 1050 point game vs the Chaos Daemons and won handily. My list was:

 

1x Captain Commander

2x 5 man Gk squads with 1 incinerator apiece

 

Total 745

 

his was a 300pt grater daemon character... nurgle based... the entire rest of the army was plague bearers.

 

end total i tabled him by turn 3 game one and game 2 where we upped the points by another 300 i added 2 dreadnoughts and 1 more Gk i tabled him on turn 4. Was really nasty due to wound allocation i didn't lose a single Gk.

 

Excellent, excellent. The first feedback of battles with the new version. What did your opponent think? What didn't he like? Did he think it was fair? What was over the top? I don't want the army list to be so powerful that nothing can compete.

 

With regards to Wound Allocation, in each of your GK Squads you have 3 regular guys, 1 with an Incinerator, and 1 Justicar (3 distinct "groups" with regard to Saves), so you can do some Wound Allocation hijinks, but not nearly as much as a Nobz mob that can all be equipped differently.

 

Thanks for the input though, and let us know if you get more games in. Give my thanks to your Nurgle Daemon opponent, as well.

 

V

[Valerian]

One of the GKT got a MM (instead of a SS), and I've got one on the PAGK Bikers (lolz!). I would have had a second, but I didn't quite have the points to sqeeze in the 10th PAGK fo the Squad. ;)

 

The Storm Hawk doesn't have a MM, it doesn't have any options :P. IIRC it's got a twin linked Autocannon and a Twink Linked HB. And 4 one shot missiles that aren't as good as the Storm Ravens. ;) (AP3 over AP1).

 

Ah, that's right; I had forgotten the weapon options for Grey Knights and Terminators in the TF campaign pack already. I've been focusing more on the Fandex lately. Yeah, those guys on the Bikes are going to be a nasty surprise for your opponent.

 

V

[Darkmagi]

he thought the psycannon blast should be changed to the small blast templet... he pointed to the hellfire rounds for the scout heavy bolter as an example. other then that he was amazed.... although a bad scatter each game annihilated one of his squads. he though it was a major challenge. also with a ws 3 vs ws5 and the plague bearers having no shooting it was hard for him to wound me despite his str 5

[Valerian]

he thought the psycannon blast should be changed to the small blast templet...

 

Yeah, that is probably fair. Of course, I could just drop the Blast altogether and leave it as 3 shots at 36" if you don't move (or are Relentless) and 24" if you do move. Hmmm.

 

other then that he was amazed.... although a bad scatter each game annihilated one of his squads. he though it was a major challenge. also with a ws 3 vs ws5 and the plague bearers having no shooting it was hard for him to wound me despite his str 5

 

Don't have my rulebook with me, but doesn't WS3 hit WS5 on 4+ ? If it is 5+, then that would make a big difference, but 4+ would be the same as his attacks against about everything in the game.

 

V

[Darkmagi]

I don't have mine on me either tbh but from playing against his guard we have always played it as a 5+ to hit at ws3-ws5....i hope we havent been playing it wrong all this time.

[archangelCJ]

yeah its a 4+ to hit. you only hit on a 5+ in close combat if your opponents weapon skill is twice as big as yours +1.

 

so for WS3 to hit on 5+ they would have to be swingint at something with WS7

[Valerian]

yeah its a 4+ to hit. you only hit on a 5+ in close combat if your opponents weapon skill is twice as big as yours +1.

 

so for WS3 to hit on 5+ they would have to be swingint at something with WS7

 

That's what I thought; it is pretty rare to need anything harder than 4+ (50%) in close combat.

 

@Darkmagi, you may want to give your pal another go, and see if it isn't so one-sided in close combat this time : )

 

I'm sure that he'll be pleased with the good news.

 

V

[archangelCJ]

well it seems we may getr a good test going on here.

 

tomorrow i will be going up against one of my regular opponents in a 2000 point game.

 

he is playing to Space Wolf 13th Company Fandex so i have decided to play this brilliantly crafted piece of reference literature (horay for long winded titles!)

 

this is the list i plan to use:

 

=HQ=

Grey Knight Master Commander

 

=Elites=

Grey Knights Terminator Squad

Psycannon

(taken as Troops Choice)

 

=Troops=

Grey Knights Squad

2 Extra Men

Psycannon

Transport: Land Raider Redeemer

Extra Armour

Multi Melta

 

Grey Knights Squad

2 Extra Men

Psycannon

Transport: Land Raider Redeemer

Extra Armour

Multi Melta

 

i may need correction but i think that it will put me spot on 2K. corrections are most welcome as i dont reall want to c*&k this one up :P

 

i'l let you guys know how it goes in a bat rep i'll post.

 

oo! i just got a meg=ssage that i may be going up against blood angels as well...... supurb! :)

[Darkmagi]

yeah its a 4+ to hit. you only hit on a 5+ in close combat if your opponents weapon skill is twice as big as yours +1.

 

so for WS3 to hit on 5+ they would have to be swingint at something with WS7

 

ok so then if i have a ws5 vs his ws3 do i hit on 3+ or 4+?

[Valerian]

yeah its a 4+ to hit. you only hit on a 5+ in close combat if your opponents weapon skill is twice as big as yours +1.

 

so for WS3 to hit on 5+ they would have to be swingint at something with WS7

 

ok so then if i have a ws5 vs his ws3 do i hit on 3+ or 4+?

 

If you have a better WS (which you do), then you'll hit him on 3+, but he'll hit you back on 4+, which isn't so bad.

 

V

[Gyson_Vore]

Excellent, excellent. The first feedback of battles with the new version. What did your opponent think? What didn't he like? Did he think it was fair? What was over the top? I don't want the army list to be so powerful that nothing can compete.

Well, I was the Nurgle opponent, and I honestly enjoyed getting beaten down before the end of the game.

My notes as mentioned were the large blast to the Psycannon, and the Power Weapons for all. It just seemed a little over the top, as with the superior weapon skill to standard troops and the 6 for strength which means they wound on 2+ usually, just kind of makes me shudder what squads without an invulnerable save will go through. They naturally have an insane shooting capability with a Storm Bolter Standard, so a squad really gets hit in what I might think is a too powerful manner.

 

Other than that, I felt that it was well balanced. The 2 wounds and attacks made the few numbers they had really count, and made them punch a little above their weight.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Darkmagi]

Oh i wanted to check are the options for the justicar and brother caption to take special war gear being removed? there are no options for the brother captain or the justicar to take psycannons or incinerators. Also the removal of the Pergation squads i found odd. Why not continue to have our version of devastators?

[Valerian]

Excellent, excellent. The first feedback of battles with the new version. What did your opponent think? What didn't he like? Did he think it was fair? What was over the top? I don't want the army list to be so powerful that nothing can compete.

Well, I was the Nurgle opponent, and I honestly enjoyed getting beaten down before the end of the game.

My notes as mentioned were the large blast to the Psycannon, and the Power Weapons for all. It just seemed a little over the top, as with the superior weapon skill to standard troops and the 6 for strength which means they wound on 2+ usually, just kind of makes me shudder what squads without an invulnerable save will go through. They naturally have an insane shooting capability with a Storm Bolter Standard, so a squad really gets hit in what I might think is a too powerful manner.

 

Other than that, I felt that it was well balanced. The 2 wounds and attacks made the few numbers they had really count, and made them punch a little above their weight.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Thanks Gyson, appreciate your feedback. Will take everything into consideration and wait for some more Battle Report results before making major changes. Have already downgraded the Psycannon though based on your recommendation.

 

V

[Valerian]

Oh i wanted to check are the options for the justicar and brother caption to take special war gear being removed? there are no options for the brother captain or the justicar to take psycannons or incinerators. Also the removal of the Pergation squads i found odd. Why not continue to have our version of devastators?

 

What kind of options were you looking for, for Justicars and Brother-Captains? They don't really need much more than what they come with. The B-C can take the special weapons, since the option for the Terminators says "up to two models can replace their Storm Bolters with..."

 

I dropped the Purgation squads since I don't think anyone would bother spending 400 points for a non-scoring unit of 5 models with 4 Psycannon, when you get the same thing by putting 2each Psycannon in 2 scoring Troops squads. As expensive as this army will be, it'll be hard enough to get enough Scoring units on the table.

 

V

[Darkmagi]

Oh i wanted to check are the options for the justicar and brother caption to take special war gear being removed? there are no options for the brother captain or the justicar to take psycannons or incinerators. Also the removal of the Pergation squads i found odd. Why not continue to have our version of devastators?

 

What kind of options were you looking for, for Justicars and Brother-Captains? They don't really need much more than what they come with. They can take the special weapons, since the option says "up to two models can replace their Storm Bolters with..."

 

I dropped the Purgation squads since I don't think anyone would bother spending 400 points for a non-scoring unit of 5 models with 4 Psycannon, when you get the same thing by putting 2each Psycannon in 2 scoring Troops squads. As expensive as this army will be, it'll be hard enough to get enough Scoring units on the table.

 

V

well if you look at the ability of the newer codex's for the "Sargent" of the unit to be able to customize their weapon... or like the current dex where the justicar or brother captain can purchase an incinerator or psycannon albeit at an increased price. just a thought to through out there maby give the option to them for +15 points for the incinerator and +30 points for the psycannon.