Grey Knights Fandex v2.0

[Gentlemanloser]

and the Power Weapons for all.

 

Once you've faced Bloodletters (S5/I5 due to FC, and all power Weapons) or Sanguinary Guard (Same, but Master Crafted...), it doesn't seem out of place for all NFW to be considered Power Weapons. :lol:

 

Edit: double post in same post bug. Ugh.

[Brovius]

I had a 1500 point game to test out the Lancers idea today.

 

I must say, for what they pay for they are nothing special. I priced the base squad (Brother Captain and 2 Grey Knight Lancers) at 190pts, keeping mind this is using the single-wound fandex. Additional Lancers were 55 points each, and i ran a unit of 5, at a nice and even 300pts. I'm fine where the points cost and their survivability (thanks to the Shrouding, 5+ to ignose wounds from shooting attacks coupled with a Storm Shield) but they need more ranged power. Glancing most vehicles on a 5+ is not that useful, and all i did was immobilize a Hammerhead and shake it twice.

 

Perhaps we could increase the strength value of the Knights' Lance to 8, or make it AP1? The trade-off being that it never counts as a Power Weapon, instead of it operating like Ork Burnas (Onlt a Power Weapon if you didn't shoot it that turn). Other than that, it fulfills the GK's lack of ability to take out enemies with a 2+ save without vehicles (3 Broadsides with 2 Shield Drones didn't take a single casualty until I assaulted them with a unit of PAGK, as the Lancers were on the opposite side of the field).

 

So do you like the idea of these units, Valerian?

 

Grey Knight Lancer squad - 190 points

 

Grey Knight Lancers

WS 5 - BS 4 - S 4 - T 4 - W 1 - A 2 - Ld 9 - Sv 2+/3++

 

Grey Knight Brother Captain

WS 5 - BS 4 - S 4 - T 4 - W 1 - A 3 - Ld 10 - Sv 2+/3++

 

Grey Knight Lancer squads are all equipped with:

-Storm Shields

-Knight's Lances

-Aegis Terminator Armour

 

You may add up to seven more Lancers to the squad for 55 points each.

 

Knights' Lance (Feel free to suggest a better name, but the weapon is basically a large lance that fires a missile-like armour-piercing shot at the enemy)

Here is the current profile (What i used today)

Range 18" - Strength 7 - AP 2 - Assault 1, Lance

 

I think it needs more potential to take down tanks. I'm aware that a squad of S8 Lance weapons would be powerful, but look at Tyranid Zoanthropes. 2 wounds, a 3++ save and they have a S10 AP1 Lance psychic power, and Tyranids can field 3 of them for less than the cost of this squad. It wouldn't be game-breaking, but it could be overpowered.

I'm suggesting either an increase in Strength, or improving the AP to 1, to make it's anti-armour abilities better.

 

Any suggestions, Valerian?

 

 

EDIT: My opponent like the Grey Knight Lancers. He says it's good that i'm relying less on Land Raiders <_<

It seems they certainly fill a hole in the codex with their anti-armour/anti-Terminator ranged weapons.

[Valerian]

well it seems we may getr a good test going on here.

 

tomorrow i will be going up against one of my regular opponents in a 2000 point game.

 

he is playing to Space Wolf 13th Company Fandex so i have decided to play this brilliantly crafted piece of reference literature (horay for long winded titles!)

 

Awesome! Do you have a link to the 13th Company Fandex? I might check it out. Definitely want feedback on how it goes.

 

this is the list i plan to use:

 

=HQ=

Grey Knight Master Commander

 

Okay, looks like no upgrades so 225 pts (you can post exact points in your list, since I made it, and there are no IP issues.

 

=Elites=

Grey Knights Terminator Squad

Psycannon

(taken as Troops Choice)

 

375 for the Squad + Psycannon

 

=Troops=

Grey Knights Squad

2 Extra Men

Psycannon

 

425 pts.

 

Transport: Land Raider Redeemer

Extra Armour

Multi Melta

 

275 pts.

 

Grey Knights Squad

2 Extra Men

Psycannon

 

425

 

Transport: Land Raider Redeemer

Extra Armour

Multi Melta

 

275

 

Total: 2,000 on the nose!

 

i'l let you guys know how it goes in a bat rep i'll post.

 

oo! i just got a message that i may be going up against blood angels as well...... supurb! :)

 

Great! Looking forward to hearing how it goes, especially against those two tough armies.

 

V

[Valerian]

Any suggestions, Valerian?

 

 

EDIT: My opponent like the Grey Knight Lancers. He says it's good that i'm relying less on Land Raiders :P

It seems they certainly fill a hole in the codex with their anti-armour/anti-Terminator ranged weapons.

 

Maybe up the Strength by 1 and see how it goes again. Otherwise, it does look like a pretty good unit for your games if you like them and they fill a niche for you.

 

V

[Brovius]

Definitely, like my opponent said, they like the fact that i'm not relying on LR-spam to take out heavily-armoured units and vehicles.

 

The only thing stopping me from upping the strength of the lances by one, is that would cause ID on too many units, and with sheer volume of shots that can be fired from what is a particularly sturdy unit, could leave some people unhappy.

So i think making it AP1 would be better, it has no extra effect on infantry, but makes it just that slight bit easier to punch through vehicles with a +1 to the damage result. (If it was AP1, i would have wrecked that Hammerhead first turn :) )

 

It looks like you've all but abandoned the old fandex, but i like the way it works. Mind you, i completely forgot about the psychic powers, but the 5+ shrouding filter works wonders. I just have serious doubts that many people will play against the new fandex, because of the multi-wound marines. There's no fluffy reason as to why Grey Knights have 2 wounds, yet Codex Marines only have 1. Thousand Sons had the whole 'empty suit of Power Armour' thing as reasoning. Not even Plague Marines have 2 wounds, and they are probably the biggest contenders for dual-wound SMs.

 

Feel free to playtest and utilize the Lancers if you like, it would be great to contribute something as major as an entire unit choice to the fandex XD

To me they certainly fill a large void in the Grey Knight force, that we have no ranged weapons AP3 or better that isn't mounted on a vehicle, and the ability to go tank-busting with footsloggers is great. No other army has units quite like this, and i think missile-launching lances would be right up the GK's alley.

 

Just my 5 cents worth (we abandoned the 1 and 2 cent pieces in Australia decades ago)

[Valerian]

Definitely, like my opponent said, they like the fact that i'm not relying on LR-spam to take out heavily-armoured units and vehicles.

 

The only thing stopping me from upping the strength of the lances by one, is that would cause ID on too many units, and with sheer volume of shots that can be fired from what is a particularly sturdy unit, could leave some people unhappy.

So i think making it AP1 would be better, it has no extra effect on infantry, but makes it just that slight bit easier to punch through vehicles with a +1 to the damage result. (If it was AP1, i would have wrecked that Hammerhead first turn :D )

 

True, ID might be an over-power issue, so AP1 probably is, after-all, a better choice.

 

It looks like you've all but abandoned the old fandex, but i like the way it works. Mind you, i completely forgot about the psychic powers, but the 5+ shrouding filter works wonders.

 

Yeah, I've definitely been focusing on the new version, as that is where my enthusiasm is at right now. After a couple weeks, I might take some of the good stuff we've come up with in v2.0 and go back and apply it to v1.0. I really liked the 5+ Shrouding filter idea too (pats self on back); it's a simple, but effective rules mechanic to achieve the intended effect (increasing survivability for expensive, elite, units).

 

I just have serious doubts that many people will play against the new fandex, because of the multi-wound marines. There's no fluffy reason as to why Grey Knights have 2 wounds, yet Codex Marines only have 1. Thousand Sons had the whole 'empty suit of Power Armour' thing as reasoning. Not even Plague Marines have 2 wounds, and they are probably the biggest contenders for dual-wound SMs.

 

True, some folks might be a little hesitant, but it is a Fandex anyway, so hopefully the folks that might want to consider playing against one of those, will be a little open-minded about it.

 

I think that it is important to keep in mind that having 2 Wounds is really just another way to express Survivability as one of the rules mechanics. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that Grey Knights are twice as tough as other Marines, it just means that they are less likely to become casualties. Perhaps that 2nd Wound comes from luck, the Emperor's protection, a Shrouding effect, whatever. Just like Space Marine Captains aren't really any more durable than a Tactical Marine (Marines aren't Orks, afterall, which do become bigger, stronger, tougher, and more durable as they mature), the fact that Captains have 3 Wounds, instead of just 1, merely represents that they don't become casualties as easily.

 

That being said, there are several ways to implement a game mechanic to achieve greater "lasting power". We do it with better Armour Saves, the Stealth USR (that improves Cover Saves), Feel No Pain, We'll Be Back, Iron Will, my version of The Shrouding, Eternal Warrior, and more Wounds. All achieve a similar effect, but all have subtle differences in how they work out in the game.

 

As I said before, I am very happy with The Shrouding filter, but I wanted to explore the 2W path this go around.

 

Just my 5 cents worth (we abandoned the 1 and 2 cent pieces in Australia decades ago)

 

Each penny (1 cent coin) that we produce here in the US costs more than its value to create. Where is the sense in that? One day we will probably stop making them here, too.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Looks like my playtest game is gonna have to wait till Wednesday night and not Sunday. :P

[archangelCJ]

thanks for the double check there Valerian :P

 

i just got home from that battle i was talking about... and we decided to make it a 3 way battle that had 5 objectives :lol:

 

i forgot the bring anything for me to take any notes, so the battle report will be nothing but guess work

 

all i can say now is that it was a victory for the Grey Knights that day :) however all i had left where the terminator squad and the Grand Master.

 

both the Space Marines and the Blood Angles where Wiped off the table!

 

at one point i was holding 3 of the 5 objectives, then the Blood Angel guy came in with that Supercalafreakinawesome psycker dude and wiped them both out. it came down to that dude with 3 wounds left and my termie squad where the Grand Master Instant Killed him *phew*

 

after all of theis there is one thing i have to say... and that is that allthough the army you have made is supremely well balanced as a whole, the heavy profile on the psycannon is quite over-poweded. i mamaged to wipe out almost two whole Space Wolf Squads with just one barrage from the Psycannons on the Redeemer. maybe you should think of just making it "Heavy 1, Blast" as opposed to "Heavy 3, Blast"?

 

just my "5 cents" :P

[Valerian]

thanks for the double check there Valerian :)

 

i just got home from that battle i was talking about... and we decided to make it a 3 way battle that had 5 objectives :P

 

Interesting. Of course, it is a little harder to check balance on a 3-way battle, since there are often issues of "teaming up", even if it is unintended.

 

i forgot the bring anything for me to take any notes, so the battle report will be nothing but guess work

 

all i can say now is that it was a victory for the Grey Knights that day :) however all i had left where the terminator squad and the Grand Master.

 

Good that you won (at least the Fandex hasn't made them underpowered), but no so much that it was a complete massacre. Okay, well it was a massacre since you destroyed all of both opponents forces, but you didn't have much left over in the end.

 

at one point i was holding 3 of the 5 objectives, then the Blood Angel guy came in with that Supercalafreakinawesome psycker dude and wiped them both out. it came down to that dude with 3 wounds left and my termie squad where the Grand Master Instant Killed him *phew*

 

Mephiston? Yeah, he is nasty. Good thing you got the Instant Death on him.

 

after all of theis there is one thing i have to say... and that is that allthough the army you have made is supremely well balanced as a whole, the heavy profile on the psycannon is quite over-poweded. i mamaged to wipe out almost two whole Space Wolf Squads with just one barrage from the Psycannons on the Redeemer. maybe you should think of just making it "Heavy 1, Blast" as opposed to "Heavy 3, Blast"?

 

just my "5 cents" :P

 

I'll be fixing the Psycannon profile in just a few minutes, so check back for an update. I got clarification on Stickmonkey as to the profile for the Psycannon used during playtesting (he had misreported it earlier), which will make it more reasonable against MEQ (but still nasty against Daemons, Eldar, IG, etc.

 

Corrected Psycannon profile (updated with new info):

24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.

or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

 

Thanks for playtesting it, and providing the feedback. If you have any comments from your opponents and their experience, perceptions, thoughts, I would definitely appreciate those. To get the Fandex right, it has to be fun for both players!

 

V

[Neonknight]

Greetings,

 

my Grey Knight fellow and I had a "Test Game" yesterday evening. In the past we used the "old" fandex of Valerian in more than 6 games.

2000 Pts. spearheaded Capture & Control mission.

I've decided to get my old Alaitoc Eldar out of the locker, cause I had some new Fire Dragons, ready to combat. :-)

 

His army list (not fully detailed):

 

• 1 Brother-Captain Commander
  
• 5 Terminators
  
• 4 Squads of 5 Grey Knights each. Each Squad had one incinerator.
  
• 1 Land Raider Phobos
  

 

 

My Eldar list (not fully detailed):

• Farseer with Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Guide, Mindwar
  
• 5 Fire Dragons including Exarch
  
• 10 Banshees including Exarch
  
• 8 Dire Avengers incl. Exarch
  
• 5 Path Finders
  
• 9 Path Finders
  
• 14 Guardians with Starcannon and Warlock (Conceal)
  
• 14 Guardians with Starcannon and Warlock (Conceal)
  
• 5 Swooping Hawks incl. Exarch
  
• 1 Vyper with Starlance
  
• 1 Wraithlord with Starlance and 2 Flamers
  
• 2 War Walkers with 3 Starcannons and 1 Starlance
  
• 1 Falcon with Pulse and Scatter Laser
  

 

 

Deployment:

 

Grey Knights deployed first.

He deployed just the Land Raider with one squad inside in front of his objective. Rest of his army was declared as reserve.

Eldar deployed everything in an arch. Both Pathfinder squads infiltrated on the right flank of the eldar host to give cover fire. Swooping Hawks kept in reserve.

Fire Dragons mounted the Falcon.

 

Grey Knights had the first turn.

 

 

1st Turn:

 

Land Raider moved 6 inches backwards on the objective and killed 2 Guardians.

Eldar in the centre moved towards Land Raider. Vyper popped up behind a hill to destroy the LR, but missed. Nothing else was in range.

1 Guardian Squad was holding the own objective.

 

2nd Turn:

 

1 Grey Knight squad shocked behind the the centre of the main eldar army, together with the Captain-Commander. Nothing else arrived.

LR moved 12 inches forward and the squad inside disembarked to assault the falcon who had moved 24 inches.

Captain-Commander lost a wound to perils of the warp.

Flame Strike of the new squad missed, 2 Guardians fell to bolter fire. Incinerator had cast the flame strike (my luck).

LR squad assaulted Falcon and destroyed it. Fire Dragons were unharmed.

Eldar army in the centre opened fire with 2 War Walkers, 1 Wraithlord, 9 Pathfinders, 12 Guardians, 8 Dire Avengers on the doomed squad behind them and swept them away. Captain-Commander was killed by mind war.

LR was missed by vyper starlance.

LR Grey Knight squad was melted by the Fire Dragons and Pathfinders.

Swooping Hawks arrived and achieved nothing.

3rd Turn:

 

Terminators and 3rd squad arrived in front of the LR.

Terminators killed 12 Guardians with Flame Strike and incinerator.

3rd squad killed 4 Fire Dragons.

1 War Walker was shaken by the LR.

Nearly the whole Eldar army fire upon the Terminators and killed them all.

Vyper and 5 Pathfinders killed on marine of the 3rd Squad.

LR was wrecked by the remaining Fire Dragons Exarch.

Swooping Hawks left the board.

4th Turn:

 

Last Squad of Grey Knights arrived on the right flank behind 5 Pathfinders and killed 4 of them.

3rd Squad tried to get to their own objective via "Gate of Infinity" but had a peril of warp attack.

3rd Squad killed the Fire Dragon Exarch.

The new arrived Grey Knight squad was doomed and half of the eldar fired (Dire Avengers were "guided" and inflicted 18 wounds), and killed 3 of them and wounded the rest.

The rest targeted the 3rd Squad, who was on the way to the objective, killed one marine and wounded the rest.

Swooping Hawks arrived and achieved nothing.

 

5th Turn:

 

4th Squad (2 guys) went towards the Dire Avengers and assaulted them.

3rd Squad used "Gate of Infinity" and shocked beside the own objective.

Doomed Justicar and Incinerator were hacked apart by the Dire Avenger Exarch.

3rd Squad was annihilated by advancing Eldar main host.

Swooping Hawks achieved nothing!

Banshees just went from left to right and had no hugging with the marines (sort of glad)

 

End of the game: Grey Knights were wiped out, Eldar hold one objective.

 

 

Conclusions:

 

I love Runes of Warding and "Doom". I love star cannons and star lances. And I love Pathfinders (if they hit).

I hate Incinerators and Swooping Hawks.

 

Serious: My friend had bad luck with his reserve rolls, although he could re-roll them.

If all, or most of his squads would have arrived together it would had been a massacre. But thats the risk.

So I was able to concentrate my fire on one or two of his squads and finish them before the next were dripping in.

You need a lot of "normal" fire power to stop the Grey Knights. Only chance are heavy weapons with AP 2 or S 8. GK are otherwise tough as nails.

Pathfinders together with "Doom" (reroll to-wound rolls) are also deadly against them.

And the Runes of Warding saved also my day, because 50% of the powers were "dispelled".

 

I'm really afraid of getting in melee with the GK because they all have energy weapons.

 

I think the 5+ shrouding save was better than the xtra wound.

I'm not yet sure about that the GK have access to ALL psi-powers. This makes them really really flexible to every situation.

 

Next week we will have another test. I think this time I will use my Chaos Marines. Maybe even a melee army of Khorne worshippers...

 

 

Best regards

Neonknight

[Valerian]

Greetings,

 

my Grey Knight fellow and I had a "Test Game" yesterday evening. In the past we used the "old" fandex of Valerian in more than 6 games.

 

Very cool; thanks for the feedback on the new version. I'm glad that you got to play a bunch of games with the previous version, too.

 

2000 Pts. spearheaded Capture & Control mission.

I've decided to get my old Alaitoc Eldar out of the locker, cause I had some new Fire Dragons, ready to combat. :-)

 

Fire Dragons are nasty for the new, super-expensive version of the Grey Knights. Meltaguns are something to be avoided at all costs!

 

His army list (not fully detailed):

 

• 1 Brother-Captain Commander
  
• 5 Terminators
  
• 4 Squads of 5 Grey Knights each. Each Squad had one incinerator.
  
• 1 Land Raider Phobos
  

 

So, 26 guys and a Land Raider; let's do it!

 

My Eldar list (not fully detailed):

• Farseer with Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Guide, Mindwar
  
• 5 Fire Dragons including Exarch
  
• 10 Banshees including Exarch
  
• 8 Dire Avengers incl. Exarch
  
• 5 Path Finders
  
• 9 Path Finders
  
• 14 Guardians with Starcannon and Warlock (Conceal)
  
• 14 Guardians with Starcannon and Warlock (Conceal)
  
• 5 Swooping Hawks incl. Exarch
  
• 1 Vyper with Starlance
  
• 1 Wraithlord with Starlance and 2 Flamers
  
• 2 War Walkers with 3 Starcannons and 1 Starlance
  
• 1 Falcon with Pulse and Scatter Laser
  

 

71 guys and 5 vehicles; hmmm. This is going to be tough.

 

Conclusions:

 

I love Runes of Warding and "Doom". I love star cannons and star lances. And I love Pathfinders (if they hit).

I hate Incinerators and Swooping Hawks.

 

Yeah, with AP4, Incinerators (and Psycannon) can ruin and Eldar's day. He should have preserved his Incinerator's ability to fire that one time, and really missed out on an opportunity to toast a large batch of your guys by assigning the model with the Incinerator as the caster for the Flame Strike that turn.

 

Serious: My friend had bad luck with his reserve rolls, although he could re-roll them.

If all, or most of his squads would have arrived together it would had been a massacre. But thats the risk..

 

He really did have very poor luck by coming in piecemeal like that, especially with the rerolls for failed Reserve rolls. I think if I only had one unit come in on the 2nd Turn, I wouldn't have been as aggressive with them. As you said, if they all came in together, he could have done some serious damage to you.

 

So I was able to concentrate my fire on one or two of his squads and finish them before the next were dripping in.

 

Exactly. When you come in piecemeal like that, I think you need to be a little less aggressive with where you decide to Deep Strike to. Even with 2+ Saves and 2 Wounds, each unit isn't going to be able to withstand a full Eldar armies' firepower (particularly with Doom and Guide, and those Eldar psychic powers). Speaking of that, since your opponent knew (I assume) that he would be playing your Eldar, I am very surprised that he didn't find the points to put a Psychic Hood on his Brother-Captain Commander. That would have made a world of difference if he could have shut down some of your powers.

 

You need a lot of "normal" fire power to stop the Grey Knights. Only chance are heavy weapons with AP 2 or S 8. GK are otherwise tough as nails.

Pathfinders together with "Doom" (reroll to-wound rolls) are also deadly against them.

And the Runes of Warding saved also my day, because 50% of the powers were "dispelled".

 

Definitely a good choice for the Runes of Warding on your point (with such a psychic power heavy force as my version of the Knights).

 

I think the 5+ shrouding save was better than the xtra wound.

 

Better in what way? More effective; more appropriate; something else? I might be convinced to abandon the 2 Wounds, and go back to the 5+ Shrouding filter. I think I would have to go back and adjust unit points again, though. I believe the Shrouding would bring their points down a little - what do you think?

 

I'm not yet sure about that the GK have access to ALL psi-powers. This makes them really really flexible to every situation.

 

Yeah, it was my intent to have GK units being fairly "standard" (only two choices, either GKT or regular GK), but that they would gain their flexibility through a broad menu of psychic powers. Also, since every character and every unit gets casting ability, it just seemed a hell of a lot easier to let them all have access to all of the powers and pick which they wanted to attempt to cast each turn, rather than try to track separately which units "knew" which powers. "Knowing" them all is just less complicated. Also, the advantage of knowing them all is just one of the many capabilities that has helped drive up their cost to 50+ points per model.

 

Next week we will have another test. I think this time I will use my Chaos Marines. Maybe even a melee army of Khorne worshippers...

 

Awesome, I hope that you guys enjoy yourselves again, and am looking forward to more feedback. Talk with your Grey Knight playing buddy, and let me know what you think about the "2W" vs. "The Shrouding" question.

 

Thanks again for helping out with this!

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Brovius]

I personally love the Shrouding in the old fandex, it's great to filter away some otherwise lethal firepower, and encourages the enemy to rely on taking out Grey Knights in close combat, which is where the GK excel.

It's really fluff-driven, and (the people in my local metagame, anyway) don't find it anywhere as cheesy as 2 wound GKs.

 

Grey Knights should be outnumbered by the enemy in almost all occasions, but not to the point where we have 20-ish models in 2000pts. The game is not entirely true to the fluff, because a Space Marine would be worth more than 3 termagaunts in the fluff. I personally like the points costs of the first version of the fandex It's all pretty spot-on.

 

Just my 5 cents

[Neonknight]

Yeah, with AP4, Incinerators (and Psycannon) can ruin and Eldar's day. He should have preserved his Incinerator's ability to fire that one time, and really missed out on an opportunity to toast a large batch of your guys by assigning the model with the Incinerator as the caster for the Flame Strike that turn.

 

That's right. He was just not concentrated at that moment and noticed his mistake to late. He forgot that Flame Strike is a psychic shooting attack. Otherwise my Guardian squad would have been nearly annihilated, because they were one big pile of bodies.

But in that turn I forgot once that his squad was "doomed" and didn't re-roll the wounds. :D

 

He really did have very poor luck by coming in piecemeal like that, especially with the rerolls for failed Reserve rolls. I think if I only had one unit come in on the 2nd Turn, I wouldn't have been as aggressive with them. As you said, if they all came in together, he could have done some serious damage to you.

 

First he made the mistake to think that all reserve is arriving in the first turn. Because last time we played a certain Space Marine Misson from the Battle Misson Book, where all shock troops can arrive in the first turn. Again he was just without concentration.

Yes, and the GK are coming in really precise because they only scatter one D6. Paired with the incinerator this is a certain death to guardsmen, orks, most eldar, tau und tyranid troops.

And with "Gate of Infintity" GK don't really need a transport, are able to get next to another unit and burn it down. In the last round they just hop back to an objective, to secure it. That's tough.

 

Speaking of that, since your opponent knew (I assume) that he would be playing your Eldar, I am very surprised that he didn't find the points to put a Psychic Hood on his Brother-Captain Commander. That would have made a world of difference if he could have shut down some of your powers.

 

Well, I think he underestimated the Eldar powers and was thinkink of his 4+ inv. save aganist psychic attacks.

We had a debate in the game if this 4+ save is against the psychic power self or against every wound that the power is causing.

My Farseer used "Mind War" against his Captain and scored the loss of 2 wounds. Has the captain one 4+ roll to discard the power self and afterwards (if he failed) his 4+ safe from "Icon of the Just" or just two 4+ (aegis suit) rolls against every lost wound and no "Icon of the Just" roll (because it's also an inv. safe)??

 

 

Definitely a good choice for the Runes of Warding on your point (with such a psychic power heavy force as my version of the Knights).

 

First I thought to kick the Farseer out of my list (cause I thought every squad can get a psychic hood), to get Yriel or Fuegan but then I noticed the "Runes of Warding" and couldn't believe it. The Runes are much more better now, because of that strong increase of psychic powers with the new codices.

 

Better in what way? More effective; more appropriate; something else? I might be convinced to abandon the 2 Wounds, and go back to the 5+ Shrouding filter. I think I would have to go back and adjust unit points again, though. I believe the Shrouding would bring their points down a little - what do you think?

 

More effective. Against such an enemy as this GK, you always will wield as much heavy weapons as possible, to negate their armour save or to achieve an Instant Death. With an 5+ save against (nearly) everything you always will have a chance to survive and you are more flexible.

In the last 2 games, his GK were fighting against a imperial heavy mech list (3 Leman Russ, 1 Demolisher, 1 basilisk, bane wolf, melta vets etc.) and were able to win both games. I really despaired of his 2+/5+ jusiticar who alone survived a lot of Battle-, Plasma-, and Lasercannon shots and took out my HQ and 2 tanks.

With such a litte model count you are really depending on every dice roll. And if you get no roll, you almost have lost.

My 92 points of Fire Dragons obliterated 550 points of GK. And in our days, meltas and similar stuff are all around.

 

"Knowing" them all is just less complicated. Also, the advantage of knowing them all is just one of the many capabilities that has helped drive up their cost to 50+ points per model.

 

Well, but is less complicated also balanced?

But for me personally it's to early to get to an final opionion about that. Some more test games will show it.

 

Awesome, I hope that you guys enjoy yourselves again, and am looking forward to more feedback. Talk with your Grey Knight playing buddy, and let me know what you think about the "2W" vs. "The Shrouding" question.

 

We will certainly enjoy it. Your fandex is on a good way. :(

I will ask him.

 

 

Neonknight

[Valerian]

I personally love the Shrouding in the old fandex, it's great to filter away some otherwise lethal firepower, and encourages the enemy to rely on taking out Grey Knights in close combat, which is where the GK excel.

It's really fluff-driven, and (the people in my local metagame, anyway) don't find it anywhere as cheesy as 2 wound GKs.

 

Grey Knights should be outnumbered by the enemy in almost all occasions, but not to the point where we have 20-ish models in 2000pts. The game is not entirely true to the fluff, because a Space Marine would be worth more than 3 termagaunts in the fluff. I personally like the points costs of the first version of the fandex It's all pretty spot-on.

 

Just my 5 cents

 

 

Just for you, Brother Brovius (and anyone else who prefers the older version of the Fandex), I have updated the original version to the new, more pleasant, format. Link to Fandex v1.0.

 

Version 1.0:

 

• Maintains single-Wound for all basic Grey Knights
  
• Maintains the Strength 6 close combat weapon for all basic Grey Knights
  
• Uses The Shrouding "filter" for added durability
  
• Each model is significantly cheaper than in Version 2.0
  

 

Here is the link to Fandex v2.0.

 

Version 2.0:

 

• Doesn't use The Shrouding "filter" for ranged shooting attacks against Grey Knights
  
• Gives two Wounds to all basic Grey Knights
  
• The NFW counts as a S6 Power Weapon for all basic Grey Knights
  
• Each unit is much more expensive
  

 

 

Enjoy,

 

Valerian

[Valerian]

Yeah, with AP4, Incinerators (and Psycannon) can ruin and Eldar's day. He should have preserved his Incinerator's ability to fire that one time, and really missed out on an opportunity to toast a large batch of your guys by assigning the model with the Incinerator as the caster for the Flame Strike that turn.

 

That's right. He was just not concentrated at that moment and noticed his mistake to late. He forgot that Flame Strike is a psychic shooting attack. Otherwise my Guardian squad would have been nearly annihilated, because they were one big pile of bodies.

But in that turn I forgot once that his squad was "doomed" and didn't re-roll the wounds. ^_^

 

It happens; all of us forget things we can do on occasion.

 

He really did have very poor luck by coming in piecemeal like that, especially with the rerolls for failed Reserve rolls. I think if I only had one unit come in on the 2nd Turn, I wouldn't have been as aggressive with them. As you said, if they all came in together, he could have done some serious damage to you.

 

First he made the mistake to think that all reserve is arriving in the first turn. Because last time we played a certain Space Marine Misson from the Battle Misson Book, where all shock troops can arrive in the first turn. Again he was just without concentration.

 

I think the game might have gone better for him if he was a little more "head in the game", but like I said, it happens to everyone on occasion. Hopefully, you'll get to test it again when he is able to concentrate a little better.

 

Speaking of that, since your opponent knew (I assume) that he would be playing your Eldar, I am very surprised that he didn't find the points to put a Psychic Hood on his Brother-Captain Commander. That would have made a world of difference if he could have shut down some of your powers.

 

Well, I think he underestimated the Eldar powers and was thinkink of his 4+ inv. save aganist psychic attacks.

 

Yeah, well, the Aegis will really help against the psychic shooting attacks, and things like "Doom" that targets the Grey Knights. It doesn't help at all against the powers that buff the Eldar units, though, like "Guide" and "Fortune".

 

We had a debate in the game if this 4+ save is against the psychic power self or against every wound that the power is causing.

My Farseer used "Mind War" against his Captain and scored the loss of 2 wounds. Has the captain one 4+ roll to discard the power self and afterwards (if he failed) his 4+ safe from "Icon of the Just" or just two 4+ (aegis suit) rolls against every lost wound and no "Icon of the Just" roll (because it's also an inv. safe)??

 

The Aegis 4+ is against the power itself, not against each wound, so Mind War would either get through (and do both wounds, depending on that Ld test comparison) or not. As to whether Icon of the Just would help, I'm actually not sure. Mind War acts as a psychic shooting attack, sort of, but doesn't allow any armour saves. Does it normally allow Invulnerable Saves? If so, he could try an Icon Save against each wound after the power made it past The Aegis. I'll have to look in the Eldar FAQ or in discussion boards elsewhere to see if Mind War allows Invulnerable Saves at all.

 

Definitely a good choice for the Runes of Warding on your point (with such a psychic power heavy force as my version of the Knights).

 

First I thought to kick the Farseer out of my list (cause I thought every squad can get a psychic hood), to get Yriel or Fuegan but then I noticed the "Runes of Warding" and couldn't believe it. The Runes are much more better now, because of that strong increase of psychic powers with the new codices.

 

Yeah, Runes of Warding are a no-brainer for you, especially now that 5th Edition psychic powers are becoming more useful/formidable. He needs to take a Psychic Hood on his HQ choice, and try to kill your Farseer early to open up his psychic power availability.

 

Better in what way? More effective; more appropriate; something else? I might be convinced to abandon the 2 Wounds, and go back to the 5+ Shrouding filter. I think I would have to go back and adjust unit points again, though. I believe the Shrouding would bring their points down a little - what do you think?

 

More effective. Against such an enemy as this GK, you always will wield as much heavy weapons as possible, to negate their armour save or to achieve an Instant Death. With an 5+ save against (nearly) everything you always will have a chance to survive and you are more flexible.

In the last 2 games, his GK were fighting against a imperial heavy mech list (3 Leman Russ, 1 Demolisher, 1 basilisk, bane wolf, melta vets etc.) and were able to win both games. I really despaired of his 2+/5+ jusiticar who alone survived a lot of Battle-, Plasma-, and Lasercannon shots and took out my HQ and 2 tanks.

With such a litte model count you are really depending on every dice roll. And if you get no roll, you almost have lost.

My 92 points of Fire Dragons obliterated 550 points of GK. And in our days, meltas and similar stuff are all around.

 

I'll really have to think about that one. Would you say that if I took away the 2-Wounds for all basic Troops, but added the 5+ Shrouding "filter" back in, that all of the units would stay at about the same points cost? I'd hate to make them even more expensive than they already are.

 

"Knowing" them all is just less complicated. Also, the advantage of knowing them all is just one of the many capabilities that has helped drive up their cost to 50+ points per model.

 

Well, but is less complicated also balanced?

 

Maybe not. I tried to ensure balance in this regard by making each squad god-awful expensive. I might be convinced to make each unit/squad and each character have to pick what they "know" prior to the game. This would have to bring unit costs down some though.

 

Awesome, I hope that you guys enjoy yourselves again, and am looking forward to more feedback. Talk with your Grey Knight playing buddy, and let me know what you think about the "2W" vs. "The Shrouding" question.

 

We will certainly enjoy it. Your fandex is on a good way. :)

 

Neonknight

 

Thanks much! I put a lot of work into it to make a good product for the community. I think it is cool that you are getting to enjoy it, and you are the opponent, and not even the Grey Knights player. I'd say that is success in my book.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Brovius]

Just for you, Brother Brovius (and anyone else who prefers the older version of the Fandex), I have updated the original version to the new, more pleasant, format. Link to Fandex v1.0.

 

Thanks, Brother Valerian. May the Emperor's light shine upon you.

[GeoWolf]

Just noticed something after browsing the two Fandex. In both versions, under the heading of Special rules, the Aegis is written to give a 4+ inv save vs the wounds caused by psychic shooting attacks. But then you go down to the wargear section and both the PA and TDA are written to having a 4+ inv save vs psychic shooting attacks.

 

Not sure which way you wanted to lean on this, or if each 'Dex is going a different route, but I figured in the interest of "Lawyer-proofing" I would point it out to you.

[Valerian]

Just noticed something after browsing the two Fandex. In both versions, under the heading of Special rules, the Aegis is written to give a 4+ inv save vs the wounds caused by psychic shooting attacks. But then you go down to the wargear section and both the PA and TDA are written to having a 4+ inv save vs psychic shooting attacks.

 

Not sure which way you wanted to lean on this, or if each 'Dex is going a different route, but I figured in the interest of "Lawyer-proofing" I would point it out to you.

 

Geo,

 

Thanks for finding those issues for me; once again, it is really helpful when you guys go through the "Fandices" with a fine-tooth comb. I did some rewording in both the army special rules, and the wargear sections that will hopefully now make it all clear.

 

Appreciate the help,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, finally got my playtest game in.

 

I used;

 

Nathanial Garro (250)

 

Grey Knight Terminator Squad (735)

Brother Captain

Grey Knight Terminator x 4 (350)

Adamantine Cloaks x 5 (100)

Multi-Melta (20)

Storm Shields x 4 (40)

Storm Hawk (225)

 

Grey Knight Quest Squad (1005)

Brother Captain Garviel (100)

Bike (25)

Grey Knight x 4 (300)

Grey Knight x 4 (200)

Power Armour (0)

Multi-Melta x 1 (20)

Adamantine Cloaks x 8 (160)

Bikes x 8 (200)

 

 

Total: 1,990

 

I faced and Eldar list with;

 

20 Guardians (with a Starcannon)

Farseer

10 Banshees

Avatar

5 Firedragons

3 x 5 Pathfinders

Fire Prism

Nightspinner

Falcon

Waveserpent

 

It was 5 Objectives, Table Quaters. I got the First turn.

 

It was a massacre. And the only game, ever, that I have taken out one of the blasted Eldar Grav Tanks. I took out all 4! Game ended as a draw though, mainly due to lack of experience with the list on my part, and just the sheer shock and awe the Eldar player had to overcome.

 

I started with a first turn MM shot on the Fire Dragons WS (only Tank I could get to due to terrain), then charged it and utterly destroyed it in CC (no movement, auto hits, S6 versus Armour 10...). Storm Hawk moved about, fired a missile.

 

The Storm Hawk didn't do much all game, it's just not as good a it's Raven bretheren.

 

The Avatar charged me (through the ruin of the WS), and I went first, and obliterated him (even fortuned) in CC with Prefered Enemy, Defensive Grenades and more attacks than you can shake a stick at.

 

The game progressed like this. My Bikes rampaged around, killing anything they touched and being super durable. The Termies came out and were nearly impossible to kill. In response, the Eldar player adapted really well. Used the Farseer, 20 Guardians and the Banshees to take out the PAGK (banshee'sscored 8 wounds in the first round, killing 4, but were wiped out in the two sucessive rounds), with only some of the Guardians remaining.

 

The Terminators were controlled for a orund by the Nightspinner, aftr which I walked towards it (luckily not losing any to Dangerous Terrain) and took it's weapon off with a Vortex of Doom and MM shot. Awesome.

 

Games ended on turn 6, Draw, with only a Guardian Squad remaining holding an Objective, and I had an unwounded Garro and two Terminators left (scoring) on another. With another turn, I might have got alucky Vortex in to hopfully rout the Guardian and win.

 

After game assessment.

 

Not fun to play against, much like a standard Dual LR list. Not enough targets, and mostly everything tied up in CC. The first turn Assault wasn't fun to face, and the PAGK were likened to Bloodcrushers on steriods (being able to live through a 'big hit' weapon), with the bonus of the first turn assault. The GKT were nearly unkillable (Storm Shield, TDA and Wound allocation for the win) and the army was destructive. The PAGK much more so (Storm Bolters, VoD *and* a Twin Linked bolter on everyone) more than the GKT, who with thier Invulnerable save were so so survivable. Plus with an insane amount of attacks in CC. The PAGK on Bikes was nearly an 'ultimate' unit. Fast moving, durable, deadly. For Hordes and Mech and Daemonic Monstorus Creatures. AV13 Walkers would have probably been the only stop for these.

 

The list was nicely balanced points wise to power though, but I feel that lowering the points and uping the model count (that 1W Marines without Adamantine Mantles would provide), but including the reroll to saves, would provide any army just as durable, but more fun to pay and play against. It was just a litle too disheartening for my opponent when my PAGK rolled up, fired 18 SB, 20 TL Bolter and 1 MM shots, then assaulted you with S6, hit on 3's 30+ Power Weapon Attacks.

 

Luckily, I've never faced Nob Bikerz, but this sounds like a worse version of them.

[Valerian]

OK, finally got my playtest game in.

 

I used;

 

Nathanial Garro (250)

 

Grey Knight Terminator Squad (735)

Brother Captain

Grey Knight Terminator x 4 (350)

Adamantine Cloaks x 5 (100)

Multi-Melta (20)

Storm Shields x 4 (40)

Storm Hawk (225)

 

Grey Knight Quest Squad (1005)

Brother Captain Garviel (100)

Bike (25)

Grey Knight x 4 (300)

Grey Knight x 4 (200)

Power Armour (0)

Multi-Melta x 1 (20)

Adamantine Cloaks x 8 (160)

Bikes x 8 (200)

 

 

Total: 1,990

 

Gentlemenlooser, I'm glad that you got a game in, and I appreciate your providing the excellent feedback below. It looks like you played with the original version of the "2-Wound" Fandex, which has actually already been refined quite a bit. If you take a look here - Fandex 2.0 - you can check out the adjustments that I have made. Ultimately, I think that (hope that), I've been able to balance it a little better so that it isn't so much of a blow-out.

 

The Storm Hawk didn't do much all game, it's just not as good a it's Raven bretheren.

 

I've got the Raven in the newest version, rather than the Hawk that was included in the Tempus Fugitives list.

 

The Avatar charged me (through the ruin of the WS), and I went first, and obliterated him (even fortuned) in CC with Prefered Enemy, Defensive Grenades and more attacks than you can shake a stick at.

 

The newest version doesn't give Preferred Enemy, like the TF list did, but you still might smoke an Avatar if he charges you in Cover.

 

The Terminators were controlled for a orund by the Nightspinner, aftr which I walked towards it (luckily not losing any to Dangerous Terrain) and took it's weapon off with a Vortex of Doom and MM shot. Awesome.

 

You can still use Vortex, but I've taken away the Multi-meltas that the TF list included, and added back in the familiar Incinerator and (improved) Psycannon.

 

The PAGK much more so (Storm Bolters, VoD *and* a Twin Linked bolter on everyone) more than the GKT, who with thier Invulnerable save were so so survivable.

 

Unless you know something I don't, AAGK on Bikes don't get to shoot both their personal weapon *and* the Bike mounted weapons. Just like regular Marines it is an either/or choice. In the newest version of my Fandex, instead of Twin-linked Bolters the Grey Knights Bikes have Storm Bolters anyway, so there is no difference to the standard armament unless the AAGK has upgraded his weapon to an Incinerator or Psycannon. The game might have been a little more forgiving to your opponent if you hadn't been shooting both sets of weapons from the Bikers.

 

The list was nicely balanced points wise to power though, but I feel that lowering the points and uping the model count (that 1W Marines without Adamantine Mantles would provide), but including the reroll to saves, would provide any army just as durable, but more fun to pay and play against. It was just a litle too disheartening for my opponent when my PAGK rolled up, fired 18 SB, 20 TL Bolter and 1 MM shots, then assaulted you with S6, hit on 3's 30+ Power Weapon Attacks.

 

I think you might like the newer version, so give that a try if you get a chance. If you want to try a list with more models, then I've also updated the original "1-Wound" version of the Fandex, which you can find here.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah soz, sohuld have clarified that I was using the TF list, just to get a feel of how 2W GK would feel. :P There's still reluctance for using home made Dex's in my group (as others have experienced), and getting a 'semi' official home made dex was the closest I could get my group to play against. :lol:

 

Yeah, the Bike thing should really have been SB/TLB (with it worth using the Bikes over the SB when in 12" Rapid Fire Range). The benefit was having the firepower of Chaos Termies, with the fallback of using the superior SB at over 12" range.

 

I don't think my group would play against 2W GK again, and would hate the new Dex to come out with them! :)

 

The game might have been a little more forgiving to your opponent if you hadn't been shooting both sets of weapons from the Bikers.

 

Nah, I never got to shoot the Bolters. ;) Only the MM versus a WS on first turn (Bolters couldn't hurt the 12AV so weren't worth shooting), after that I was assaulted every time I was free, to deny me the charge.

 

It was rather the potential for those shots, on top of my amazing CC capabilites, that my opponents thought was OTT. ;)

[Darkmagi]

Something I just noticed is that the AAGK don't have frag or krack grenades as per normal, i realize that frags are redundant with shrouding but what about kracks?

[Valerian]

Something I just noticed is that the AAGK don't have frag or krack grenades as per normal, i realize that frags are redundant with shrouding but what about kracks?

 

Darkmagi,

 

As you noted, my version of The Shrouding already counts as having Offensive and Defensive grenades in close combat, so there is no point in having Frag grenades. Also, when everyone attacks with S6 Nemesis Force Weapons, there really isn't any point in having Krak grenades, either. When assaulting a vehicle with Krak grenades every model gets a single S6 attack, whereas they would all get 3x S6 attacks with their NFWs.

 

V

[Neonknight]

So after two weeks, we had yesterday another game with 4 players.

Eldar and Tau versus GK and Space Wolves.

2000 Pts. each side; Capture and Hold, Dawn Attack.

 

 

GK 1000 Pts. list:

 

2x5 GKs with one Incinerator and adamantine cloaks.

Captain Stern.

 

 

Short Battle Report:

 

Eldar and Tau formed a compact fire line in the centre.

Space Wolves marched on.

All GL arrived via teleport attack in the 2nd round, all behind the fire line of Eldar and Tau.

1 Squad of GK had a teleport mishap and was destroyed.

Space Wolves took heavy losses in the 2nd shooting phase and the GK squad also lost 2 models.

 

Remaining GK squad attacked 9 Rangers and killed them. Afterwards they were killed in a hail of fire.

Stern attacked 5 Dire Avengers incl. Farseer and took them out in 2 rounds of combat.

Then he had 2 another rounds of close combat against a Wraithlord, till 4 Fire Warriors and 8 Kroots took part. Stern disappeared under an ocean of bodies.

But he contested the misson objective for 3 rounds and the Marines would have won, if there had not been a 6th game turn.

In the end GK and Space Wolves were annihilated and Eldar and Tau captured both objectives.

 

 

Conclusions:

 

Personally I think the GK are too expensive.

Sure there are tough as nails, and the adamantine cloaks saved the GK squad this time from the Fire Dragons, but one bunch of unlucky rolls and you've lost.

Maybe my GK buddy risked too much, because he shocked directly in front of the Eldar and Tau and so he lost one squad to the mishap. So he was outnumbered again, because the Space Wolves still were about 20 inches away.

But it took nearly all Eldar and Tau firepower of that round to accomplish the lost of 6 wounds.

The GK player is still not sure about the fandex 2.0., so we need another test game. ;-) And this time I can hopefully bring on my chaos list.

[Neonknight]

Hi there,

 

another test game is finished.

 

My Chaos list:

 

• Khârn the Betrayer
  
• 5 Terminators with 3 Kombi-Melta and 1 Kombi-Plasma
  
• Chaos Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon
  
• 9 Khorne Berserkers with 2 Plasma Pistols, incl. 1 Champion with Plasma Pistol and Power Fist
  
• 10 Lesser Daemons
  
• 10 Lesser Daemons
  
• 5 Space Marines with 1 Melta and Champion
  
• 5 Space Marines with 1 Melta and Champion
  
• 5 Space Marines with 1 Plasma and Champion
  
• 3 Obliterators
  
• Land Raider with Daemon Engine
  
• 5 Havocs with 2 Lasercannons, 2 Missile Launchers
  

 

GK List:

 

• Captain Stern
  
• 5 Terminators incl. Captain and 1 Incinerator
  
• 4 x 5 GK Space Marines incl. 1 Incinerator each Squad
  
• Land Raider
  

 

2000 Pts. Game, Capture and Control, Pitched Battle

 

Deployment:

Chaos had the first turn and deployed everything, only Terminators and lesser Daemons held in reserve.

GK deployed 2 Squads and the LR on the misson objective. Terminators were inside the LR. Rest in reserve.

 

Battle Report:

 

Chaos pushed forward to the misson objective of the GK. Chaos LR was packed full with Berserkers and Khârn.

Obliterators and Havocs stood still and supported with cover fire.

1 Chaos Space Marines Squad held the own objective.

Chaos Dreadnought annihilated 1 Squad of Chaos Marine and in the next turn he took aim on the next squad to kill two more. Stupid Thing.

Lesser Daemons arrived in 2nd and 3rd turn beside the LR to soak up fire.

Chaos Terminators arrived also in 2nd turn and killed 4 GK.

 

Other 2 squads of GK arrived in 2nd turn in front of their own line to defend the objective.

1 squad immobilised the Chaos LR with the Vortex, the other killed 5 Daemons.

Stern took part in the 3rd turn behind the own objective to welcome the remaining 4 Berserkers after they killed one squad of GK.

Khârn and 5 Daemons charged the fresh GK squad and killed 4 of 5. Khârn had one wound left.

GK Terminators eliminated the Chaos Terminators in close combat, boarded their LR again and drove back to the objective.

Another 6 lesser Daemons entered the close combat in the centre but Khârn and the remaining Justicar both died.

Stern managed to finish off the last 4 Berserkers with one wound left, thanks to his re-roll ability.

He was knocked out by a lascannon from the havocs, who re-rolled the to-wound roll, thanks to Sterns ability. :-)

Last 3 GK Terminators killed 5 lesser Daemons and were obliterated afterwards by the obliterators.

LR of the GK tank shocked 3 Space Marines and took an devastating Melta hit.

 

Game was over after 6 rounds as the Gk were annihilated.