Does anybody use Predators?

[Grey Mage]

5 LFs with 4 LCs- 175pts.

1 Predator- 2 LCs and 1 TLd- 165pts.

 

For 10pts you get a unit that is better able to make use of cover, can shoot 2 targets and can be upgraded with a razorback, and can potentially get 4 hits intstead of 3.

 

In return you can be harmed by S 3 weapons, and lose some mobility.

 

I think the LFs win by a mile personally.

[Blitzkreig]

Everybody knows that Long Fangs win by a mile, but I don't like them. I don't know why but I just prefer Tanks in my Space Wolf army.

 

I used the 2 predators in a game yesterday against a friend who plays Chaos and I must say, compared to Vindicators I was rather unimpressed... during the course of the game they accounted for a defiler and a Daemon Prince, falling just short of getting their points back. When we played again the Vindicators just kept tearing chunks out of his squads. Of course it is a moot point as the entire purpose of the Predators was to be long range anti-tank.

[Godhead]

Man i've said it a few times here recently, but I think as soon as GW gives preds the ability to equip plasma cannons, then they become the premier tank of the space marines.

[Vassakov]

Well, I have a Tri-Las and a Dakka Pred, plus 15 Long Fangs (4x Missile Launcher; 2 Las & 2 Plas; 2 Las & 2 Heavy Bolters)

 

Generally I tend to find the Long Fangs, provided you can find them some cover, are more survivable and more versitle. If I want a tank, a Vindicator or two tends to work better to support a Land Raider.

 

The problem I'm now having with Preds is the abundance of Outflanking/Deep Striking Melta. 5 or 6 Marines in cover isn't going to be easy to shift with a couple of Melta's opening up on them. The Predator tends to be so much slag. It's a similar story in CQC, as Preds tend to be immobile to fire, a Powerfist or couple of meltabombs peels it open no problem. 5 Long Fangs in cover, counterattacking? Well, they're probably going to die, but they're likely to take something with them.

[rodgambit]

I understand you wanting to compare at similar points, but who takes 4 long fangs? The ability to take 1 more heavy weapon and split fire is what sets them apart from normal marines so comparing them to a 4 man unit is not as realistic IMO. Now if your comparing them to a 4 man dev squad for marines or BA who employ fast preds, then by all means they outperform.

 

The autolas pred has the same range as the long fangs who you can put in cover. Gaining hull down without blocking LOS from the sponsons is going to be nearly impossible. In cover no battle cannon is going to wipe a long fangs pack. You also have wounds to give with the pack leader or by spending the points to add a wolf guard member.

 

Even a battle cannon that takes out half the squad doesn't make the squad useless. Even the worst damage table result (shaken) will cause the pred to sit and do nothing.

 

The predator is not a bad tank by any means, but I don't find it to be as survivable or flexible as long fangs, who can also handle horde armies with blast templates.

 

I agree that if you are building a list, you buy the full caboodle and the LF win. No contest.

But if you have 120ish points, the AutoLas is as good as destroying AV AND can touch AV14 and can kill TEq (though the ML are better at killing MEq)

Also if you are running a Mech list, the Pred fits in better as it saturates enemy shooting with too many AVs to shoot at.

 

I think we are both agreeing - both are good, both are better in different spots and ideally you take 5 x MLs, ftw!

 

I have been thinking about 40K thinking for a while now.

People do things out of habit, preference, etc. and are not aware of everything.

I just want to get people to weigh up 5th ed evidence and not rely on tried and tested 4th ed tactics ~ because we ain't playing 4th no more :(

 

I haven't played a full on SW mech force. I hear they are pretty competitive, but after playing my BA mech list I don't see how SW's could compare. I actually enjoy playing my wolves more than my BA and I like our unique units like long fangs, TWC, scouts and the general flexibility our book has. I've been trying out Ven dreads with x2 autocannon or Tllc/autocannon lately and both work out nicely IMO, but as far as tanks go I just don't see much use in playing a list that another codex does but better (due to fast tanks).

[Ranwulf]

Size matters too, think like this, how are you going to hide a Pred behind a small building? Other disvantage is that one Penetrate, and you can lose the vechile effiency. Besides, you can't fire at two different targets, and you are hardly going to be as tactical as Long fang Squad with Missile Launhcers.

 

Oh, and serious, five old guys holding Super Awesome Heavy Weapos? That's just FREAKING COOL.

 

Ran

[Karack Blackstone]

5 LFs with 4 LCs- 175pts.

1 Predator- 2 LCs and 1 TLd- 165pts.

 

For 10pts you get a unit that is better able to make use of cover, can shoot 2 targets and can be upgraded with a razorback, and can potentially get 4 hits intstead of 3.

 

In return you can be harmed by S 3 weapons, and lose some mobility.

 

I think the LFs win by a mile personally.

 

This, and at 215 pts versus a fully fitted Predator is what, 180 pts, with TLLC, x2 LC, and EA? That's 5 shots versus up to two targets, and 6 wounds available for 5 weapons. Pity whatever merits a single volley at it from those LF's... (Maybe not the wisest course, but if a Demon Prince is marching up and it's gotta die, it's just gotta die.)

 

I'd personally take LF's as they're more fluffy this edition and even if you go with ML's, it's a nice, cheap effective twin-mode weapon, and cheap at 140 pts for either Kraks and/or Frags per shot. Plus toss in a WGT-CML with a Fist and you've got something nasty supporting your army.

[captain fabian]

I prefer not to use ''important'' tanks. I mean if I can do a job of a tank with another unit I will. I believe tanks don't work for me. Actually they never did. It may have to do with my aggresive style though. So I use only the necessary Rhinos and Raiders and leave the rest to units that take more than a shot to destroy and can have more and permanent cover.

[Ranwulf]

5 LFs with 4 LCs- 175pts.

1 Predator- 2 LCs and 1 TLd- 165pts.

 

For 10pts you get a unit that is better able to make use of cover, can shoot 2 targets and can be upgraded with a razorback, and can potentially get 4 hits intstead of 3.

 

In return you can be harmed by S 3 weapons, and lose some mobility.

 

I think the LFs win by a mile personally.

 

This, and at 215 pts versus a fully fitted Predator is what, 180 pts, with TLLC, x2 LC, and EA? That's 5 shots versus up to two targets, and 6 wounds available for 5 weapons. Pity whatever merits a single volley at it from those LF's... (Maybe not the wisest course, but if a Demon Prince is marching up and it's gotta die, it's just gotta die.)

 

I'd personally take LF's as they're more fluffy this edition and even if you go with ML's, it's a nice, cheap effective twin-mode weapon, and cheap at 140 pts for either Kraks and/or Frags per shot. Plus toss in a WGT-CML with a Fist and you've got something nasty supporting your army.

 

Agreed. And they are SO AWESOME. I mean, old guys with Heavy Weapons? =D

 

Not forgetting, LF's are one of the uniquiness of the SW army, so using them is a helaof choice.

 

Ran

[jmurph]

Man i've said it a few times here recently, but I think as soon as GW gives preds the ability to equip plasma cannons, then they become the premier tank of the space marines.

 

Agree 100%. They should be able to take plasma cannon turrets and plasma gun sponsons at least. More weapon loadout variety would be good- options for multimelta turret, flamer sponsons, etc. I still don't understand why only BA get assault cannon preds when everyone knows how to stick them on a razorback.

 

The big advantage of the pred is that front armor 13. However, like all vehicles, it dies horribly to melta. That's why I like a drop pod full of GHs with 2 meltas or a melta/WG combi melta squad. Drop right next to tanks and melt them. Countercharge means assaulting them is not usually a great idea, especially if you have a PWeapon of Fist in there.

 

Which is why it is important to select units for their role. A pred fits well is you have alot of AV since it forces them to spread out their AT weapon fire. With a bunch of infantry and just 1-2 tanks, it is easy to just put the AT stuff on the vehicles. Likewise, lascannons are not ideal for hunting heavy armor, especially not on a platform that can be shaken/stunned. That's is what infantry with meltas is for. Lascannons should be sniping things from extreme range, popping transports/terminators/oblits/etc. It's largely wasted shooting at AV 14 hoping for a lucky roll.

[Karack Blackstone]

There will always be a use for Lascannons however, since there are always things like Monoliths that ignore the +1D6 for half melta range...

 

Sometimes AV 14 just requires a Lascannon...

[smurf-o-wolve]

i own 2 pred destruktors, 1 pred annihilator and around 50 long fangs....i would say i prefer long fangs *G*

 

i tinkered around with mecha lists a lot and have to say compared to long fangs the preds aren't so bad. when i play long fangs they often run over my border edge after taking some losses....i'm not really lucky with dice for moral :D. this don't happen with predators.

 

when you have enough armored targets in your list normaly the preds don't get as much attention as some people think. 2 rhino's + 1 land raider packed with grey hunters and wolfguard terminators rushing to the enemy normaly get more attention then the preds :D

 

2k points

2 pred destruktor, 1 pred annihilator, 2 razorbacks, 2 rhinos, 1 land raider, 2 cybots.....enough armored targets that your preds can survive 1 or 2 rounds :D

[Ranwulf]

Man i've said it a few times here recently, but I think as soon as GW gives preds the ability to equip plasma cannons, then they become the premier tank of the space marines.

 

Agree 100%. They should be able to take plasma cannon turrets and plasma gun sponsons at least. More weapon loadout variety would be good- options for multimelta turret, flamer sponsons, etc. I still don't understand why only BA get assault cannon preds when everyone knows how to stick them on a razorback.

 

The big advantage of the pred is that front armor 13. However, like all vehicles, it dies horribly to melta. That's why I like a drop pod full of GHs with 2 meltas or a melta/WG combi melta squad. Drop right next to tanks and melt them. Countercharge means assaulting them is not usually a great idea, especially if you have a PWeapon of Fist in there.

 

Which is why it is important to select units for their role. A pred fits well is you have alot of AV since it forces them to spread out their AT weapon fire. With a bunch of infantry and just 1-2 tanks, it is easy to just put the AT stuff on the vehicles. Likewise, lascannons are not ideal for hunting heavy armor, especially not on a platform that can be shaken/stunned. That's is what infantry with meltas is for. Lascannons should be sniping things from extreme range, popping transports/terminators/oblits/etc. It's largely wasted shooting at AV 14 hoping for a lucky roll.

 

I think it's because of the Assault cannon short Range fire that makes it difficult for non-fast Vechiles to use.

 

Ran

[jmurph]

There will always be a use for Lascannons however, since there are always things like Monoliths that ignore the +1D6 for half melta range...

 

Sometimes AV 14 just requires a Lascannon...

 

Monoliths? Yeah, just wipe out their necron squads. Ignore it. I agree that lascannons have a use, just not generally for AV 14. Even against Necrons, its better used killing destroyers. Or a lord.

[Tsavong Lah]

I think it all comes down to the fact that you stole two Predators for $5 a piece... you'd damn well better use them! :P

[Evilbob]

If you don't use the, sell them to me for 10! lol

[rodgambit]

There will always be a use for Lascannons however, since there are always things like Monoliths that ignore the +1D6 for half melta range...

 

Sometimes AV 14 just requires a Lascannon...

 

Monoliths? Yeah, just wipe out their necron squads. Ignore it. I agree that lascannons have a use, just not generally for AV 14. Even against Necrons, its better used killing destroyers. Or a lord.

 

I see people make statements like this a lot but necrons with a good list in the hands of a competent player won't ever have thei squads just wiped out. I've played necron players who go to tournies that make laughable list and just use terrible strategy and I've played a buddy who can at least pull a draw in most games and win some against the newer codexes. Most people want to ignore the monolith but remember it contest objectives, grants a 2nd well be back and provides excellent cover to deadly models like a ctan.

[Blitzkreig]

There will always be a use for Lascannons however, since there are always things like Monoliths that ignore the +1D6 for half melta range...

 

Sometimes AV 14 just requires a Lascannon...

 

Monoliths? Yeah, just wipe out their necron squads. Ignore it. I agree that lascannons have a use, just not generally for AV 14. Even against Necrons, its better used killing destroyers. Or a lord.

 

I see people make statements like this a lot but necrons with a good list in the hands of a competent player won't ever have thei squads just wiped out. I've played necron players who go to tournies that make laughable list and just use terrible strategy and I've played a buddy who can at least pull a draw in most games and win some against the newer codexes. Most people want to ignore the monolith but remember it contest objectives, grants a 2nd well be back and provides excellent cover to deadly models like a ctan.

 

I have a friend who completely destroys most tourneys, consistently placing in the top 3. I am the only person at our LGS that can beat him... because I use the Demolisher cannons on my Vindicators to wreck the Monoliths before I go back to wasting his warriors.