Major events left

[overlordjebus]

Before the series even started, everyone knew the Horus Heresy story but only from major events like the isstvaan bombings, the dropsite massacre, the flight of eisenstein and Prospero being invaded.

 

My question is, after Prospero Burns is released, how many major book releases that have any impact on the story can they get out until the Battle of Terra, and from that the end of the series? (Books like Nemesis and Battle of the Abyss started with a problem and ended with solving that problem, not actually changing anything in the story)

 

What major events are left in the horus heresy, after Prospero being invaded and before the Battle of Terra?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Very few. One I can think of off the top of my head is the Blood Angels' big fight with the daemons. But what you have to remember is that there's a lot of stuff that is either implied or mentioned in passing that has never been fleshed out. The Iron Hands lost all their Veterans and Ferrus, but the rest of the Legion is still around -- what did they do? The Alpha Legion fought small actions to keep other Loyalists away from Terra. If Valdor made it back to Terra in time for the Siege, why didn't the Space Wolves he was powing around with? Other things I'm sure the fanbase would like to see: the destruction of Nostramo and events leading up to it; where the Dark Angels and the Lion really fence-sitting; and one good option in my mind would be a book about the efforts of the Custodes and Sisters of Silence to contain the daemons trying to get onto Terra through the holes that Magnus ripped in the Palace's defenses.

[overlordjebus]

Didn't all the iron hands people die at the dropsite massacre?

 

Another Alpha Legion book would be awesome, aslong as it is Dan Abnett :D

 

The destruction of Nostromo was covered in the audio book wasn't it? Would they have a book about it aswell as the audio book?

 

The Custodes and sisters of silence one sounds good, though nothing could live up to the first story in Tales of Heresy ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Didn't all the iron hands people die at the dropsite massacre?

 

No. When Fulgrim failed to convert Ferrus to Horu's side, he had his warships open fire on the Iron Hands fleet, causing massive damage to the ships.

 

When the orders to attack Horus came to Ferrus, he took command of the most viable warships, taking his veteran guard (morlocks i believe they were called) and ordered the rest to continue repairs (i believe) and then follow in their wake.

 

So when the attack on Horus became the betrayal, Ferrus had only lost his veteran warriors. I remember reading that those left behind actually were ordered to return to Medusa, re-arm and return to the fight. They never got the chance to return as Chaos found them on Medusa.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

There is the Battle at Calth, unfortunately being pretty much the only major event for the Ultramarines. But since Aaron Dembsky-Bowden is currently starting with the Word Bearers for the Horus Heresy series, there is hope that he will be the one doing the Calth episode.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

These aren't just post Prospero:

 

DA and SW making their way to Terra. I don't know if this fits 'modern' BL literature.

 

SW getting ambushed by the 'someone' - I cannot remember this exactly

WS wanting to help them but getting caught up against the Alpha Legion

 

Nostromo getting blown up

 

Olympus getting purged by the Iron Warriors

 

Death Guard becoming gooey

 

BA fighting Daemons as Horus had fooled them to go to that world.

 

+++

 

We have only had stories for Luna Wolves, Emperor's Children-Iron Hands, Space Wolves-Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion, Dark Angels, Death Guard and Adeptus Mechanicus (unless I am forgetting some)

 

That leaves 10 plus any for the Quis, Sisters of Silence, etc.

 

:lol: Yippee! ;)

 

EDIT: Plus stories for Librarians and Chaplains can be woven into those too.

[c-wrex]

There's also the weregeld incident with the Raven Guard, and there may yet be something regarding the rebuilding of the salamanders.

[Legatus]

I am not sure how much they will delve into the aftermath of the Heresy. That would be kind of anticlimactic.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I am not sure how much they will delve into the aftermath of the Heresy. That would be kind of anticlimactic.

 

How about:

 

The Iron Cage ~ our favourite in common subject ;)

The Scouring

 

Of course it would end in a somewhat post-Apocalyptic feel, but that's GrimDark^TM for you :P

[A D-B]

Before the series even started, everyone knew the Horus Heresy story but only from major events like the isstvaan bombings, the dropsite massacre, the flight of eisenstein and Prospero being invaded.

 

My question is, after Prospero Burns is released, how many major book releases that have any impact on the story can they get out until the Battle of Terra, and from that the end of the series? (Books like Nemesis and Battle of the Abyss started with a problem and ended with solving that problem, not actually changing anything in the story)

 

What major events are left in the horus heresy, after Prospero being invaded and before the Battle of Terra?

 

I actually brought this up at the last Horus Heresy meeting. And the main question I'd been waiting to ask for months, was to ask Alan Merrett exactly what he wanted from the series, specifically: what he wanted to see in future novels. See, I wasn't sure exactly what we were supposed to be doing at this point. We have half a decade of intergalactic civil war to fill, and there was a strong, strong theme around the table that none of us wanted to do "filler" novels. No one wants to be "that guy" who churns out generic 30K fiction, rather than something that solidly contributes to the series. It would be boring and unfulfilling to write those stories; you'd also get hideous reviews, poor sales, and you'd detract from the series itself. Plus, you'd never get such a story past the editors.

 

The "GW will drag it out as long as they can, just to make money" accusation (usually seen elsewhere, rather than here) is both true and false. The HH novels get huge sales numbers, and the civil war itself is far from over. In fact, it's just beginning. We need to detail several years, and cover a lot of factions at various significant points.

 

But no one - at any step of the process - wants to make a filler novel. No one wants to, and the editors wouldn't stand for anyone trying to do it. We're supposed to be professionals, after all. Doing something like that reeks of leeching for sales, and screwing things up for everyone else by being a bit of a tool. Add to that, no matter what various forums might say, we're all massive fans of the setting. You don't work your balls off to get onto the HH team just to write something mediocre and irrelevant. Would you want to do that? No. Trust me, neither does anyone else at that table.

 

Now, let's stay on the level when we talk about this. You can look at some of the novels and say they've not contributed to the developing storyline, or that, in X's opinion, they've sucked. I'd postulate that where those novels are concerned, they either failed because of "various issues" in their creation, which is a flaw of quality and not willful intent, or were simply out of left field, and came at the series from an unusual angle.

 

But I can tell you with all honesty that the main points of resonance we hammer home again and again is that every novel has to further the storyline, show something new, tie into the other novels, and shunt it all that little bit closer to Terra. Let's take Nemesis as an example. Assassins fail to kill Horus. We all know that Horus makes it to Terra, so ultimately Nemesis wasn't going to "change" the status quo. What I found so memorable and valuable in Nemesis (besides the fact it's dedicated to me and my fiancee... ahem... and besides the fantastic characters on show) was the way it showed the Imperium during the Heresy itself. Its pacing was a thing of beauty, with the interconnecting storylines meeting in the middle. First, a backwater world in the Imperium is far, far from the goings-on that we're all familiar with. It's cool to see how they view the whole thing. Then, slowly, inexorably, the war reaches them and all the storylines converge. We also see the way the Imperium is managed by its highest echelons, while the Emperor seems to be paying no attention. We see foreshadowing for the future Assassin Temples. We see how Horus and co. have changed in the last 2 years of war. And so on.

 

I use Nemesis as an example here because at first glance it comes across as a filler book, and when I first heard Jim was writing it, my blood ran a bit cold. And yet it turned out to be his best-written novel, a killer spy/detective story which adds a unique flavour in the series that's getting rave reviews. It's an extreme example, but suitable.

 

But you had a question, and I'll do my best to answer it, rather than go on and on about my opinion.

 

What major events are left before the Siege of Terra? Good question. What events are left that we know about already? Not many. What events are left that are of equal importance to, say, Prospero, Calth or the Dropsite Massacre, that we don't know about yet? Several. Many. Loads. There's a lot of blood to be shed before Horus crosses blades with his father.

 

When Alan Merrett wrote Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, it finalised some things, added new battles to the lore, and did a balancing act between hinting at loads while detailing just a little. All good, all fine, all dandy. And that's exactly where we're at again. What we're supposed to be doing now is shedding light on the 'Dark Age' of the Horus Heresy, and showing the conflicts that raged over the course of that half-decade. Why were the Ultramarines so late - if what we know of Imperial record from the time is potentially untrue? How did Dorn prepare the Imperial Palace? What was the Lion really thinking? Was he really the noble good guy the first 2 novels have suggested, or was he more on the fence, as the older lore suggests? What were the Night Lords doing after Nostramo burned, and more importantly, why were they doing it? What did the Iron Hands do after their primarch and Legion leaders were slain? What was it like to be the first Possessed Astartes in the entire galaxy? What Legions gathered for massive, galaxy-changing battles before Horus managed to fight his way to Terra? Did the Imperium's forces set up a second front, with the loyalist Legions doing their best to regroup and prevent Horus from reaching the Sol system? Is 'Ratamahatta' Sepultura's greatest song? (The answer is yes.)

 

Plenty of grand, major events yet to come. They've just not been revealed yet.

[A D-B]

There is the Battle at Calth, unfortunately being pretty much the only major event for the Ultramarines.

 

Don't quote me on this as it's just a guess, but I wouldn't be uber-shocked if Calth ended up as a duology in the same vein as A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. If it happened, I'd almost definitely be on the Word Bearer side of things, as The First Heretic was kinda written as "the first Word Bearer book" the same way Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames were linked so closely.

[Legatus]

Hum, that is not exactly good news (or "good speculation"). That may surprise you, seeing as how I was the one invoking your involvement in the first place, which you then in a way kind of confirmed. But now I am affraid that there is going to be a good and enthraling "Word Bearers" take on the issue and a lacking "Ultramarines" take. :P

But I guess it is all speculation at this point. Who knows, if the Ultramarines movie proves successful, perhaps Dan Abnett gets to write for the Ultramarines during the Heresy.

[brother varen]

I for one would like to investigate the rebuilding of the legions after the Isstvan 5. I am a die hard fan of the Iron Hands legion, because not much is even know about them. I have sent an email discussing my feeling on not all legions getting covered in the series. I understand "filler books", and don't want that. But i would like every legion to be covered to give some insight to their legions actions and flavor.

 

I don't want a collection of all events to each legion, but an account to events that affected each legion. To see what changed, if anything, in the legion's belief and emotions.

[c-wrex]

Thanks for the Insight ADB, but Raining Blood is definitely the best song by Slayer ^_^ !

[Rain]

Of course Chaos gets all of the good authors, as it should be. Too bad that neither ADB nor Abnett seem to be interested in the Iron Warriors, I've always loved Perturabo and he could use a characterization from a good author. That said, I hope to the Chaos gods that McNeill keeps to writing about Ultramarines and doesn't return to IW, I would rather have no IW novels than one by McNeill. As to important events, they will just make some up, and then the siege of the palace will be at least 3 books, plus they will keep jumping back in time, just like how The First Heretic is set before Horus Rising.

[c-wrex]

Know what else would be cool to read about? The history of the Custodes and the origin of the first dreadnought. Specifically, who trained the original of the Custodians, what is the explanation of their psychic immunity, and what sets them apart to be fit as the Emperor's personal guards over others. And whose idea the dreadnought was, who built it, where did the technology come from, was it an STC, etc. Just some thoughts.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Hum, that is not exactly good news (or "good speculation"). That may surprise you, seeing as how I was the one invoking your involvement in the first place, which you then in a way kind of confirmed. But now I am affraid that there is going to be a good and enthraling "Word Bearers" take on the issue and a lacking "Ultramarines" take. -_-

But I guess it is all speculation at this point. Who knows, if the Ultramarines movie proves successful, perhaps Dan Abnett gets to write for the Ultramarines during the Heresy.

 

As you have shared your dislike of certain UM books, be of good cheer ~ they will be better than those surely? ^_^

 

McNeill has done a great job in Fulgrim and A Thousand Sons. Better than Horus Rising? not imo, but still great books. Keep your chin up mate :)

 

+++

 

A D-B, I have a potentially curly question for you:

Now, let's stay on the level when we talk about this. You can look at some of the novels and say they've not contributed to the developing storyline, or that, in X's opinion, they've sucked. I'd postulate that where those novels are concerned, they either failed because of "various issues" in their creation, which is a flaw of quality and not willful intent, or were simply out of left field, and came at the series from an unusual angle.

 

As you know, we are possessive of 'our' guys and fluff. When things that are unattractive to us are put out, we the audience quickly see the flaws and point them out.

I know we all have different views on fluff, ret-conning and ones man's meat is another's fish, etc.

 

But how do those books - the stinky ones (be it HH or the rest of BL books), get through the net? I know everyone has bad days and we are all only human, but a novel is a culmination of days, interaction with Alan Merret, editors, etc.

So how do they get passed all those fail safes?

 

A car maker is enslaved to it's shareholders and bottom line, once the die is caste, they need to get those cars out as a return on the investment.

 

Does a novel suffer from these issues?

If not, why do they get out into circulation?

 

If you gave the book to other authors or trusted fans (such as high-ups of The Great Crusade forum, etc.) and they said "huh?", "why?", "what is the point of that?", "this stinks" etc. wouldn't that help get rid of "those" books?

 

Sorry if this is a bit awkward for you - you can avoid this one ^_^

 

Anyway, thanks for hanging out with us. We love it, in case you were wondering. :D

[Rain]

Well GW, like any publicly traded firm is merely a vehicle for the generation of dividends and the growth of equity. What you have to realize is that what is bad to many of us rabid fans might be perfectly fine to the vast majority of "casual" warhammer fans. To go further, I for example hated Fulgrim, and yet you liked it. So I could say "how could they let such obvious tripe get published, don't they care about the bottom line?" but of course they do, and what is tripe to me is a good book to you, so maybe you will tell your friends to pick it up or whatever else and they sell more copies.

 

In other words, it's all very subjective, and in many cases, tripe aimed at the masses will sell a lot more than something in depth aimed at hardcore fans. It's kind of like how Billy Bob with his 15 children up in the mountains is more fit from an evolutionary perspective than a billionaire with no kids. The lowest common denominator often wins.

[A D-B]

Too bad that neither ADB nor Abnett seem to be interested in the Iron Warriors...

 

I love the Iron Warriors. I assembled three of them last week. But Storm of Iron is, like, one of the most treasured novels ever, ever, ever. Graham's secure on that well-deserved throne; I'd never even dare to mess with his juju. And I'm sure for every person that said "Aaron did some killer Iron Warrior stuff" there'd be 8,000,000 saying "This guy is a hack and Graham should stab him in the kidneys".

 

And Graham's a mighty dude. If he came for me with a shiv in his hand, I have to confess, I think I'd be going home in a coffin.

 

I could probably take Dan if his back was turned, but Jim would just shoot me - he doesn't fight fair.

[A D-B]

As you know, we are possessive of 'our' guys and fluff. When things that are unattractive to us are put out, we the audience quickly see the flaws and point them out.

I know we all have different views on fluff, ret-conning and ones man's meat is another's fish, etc.

 

But how do those books - the stinky ones (be it HH or the rest of BL books), get through the net? I know everyone has bad days and we are all only human, but a novel is a culmination of days, interaction with Alan Merret, editors, etc.

So how do they get passed all those fail safes?

 

Okay.

 

Excuse me while I dance lightly around this one. There's a difference (in professionalism, and probably legality as well) between me saying "I think some books released by my publisher sorta suck" which I say about every publisher in the world (because that's what tastes are), and "Book X was terrible - here's how it slipped the leash, only to die in the jaws of much bigger dogs".

 

So I'll give you a general heads-up on the publishing side, that applies to all publishers, not just the Black Library.

 

And bear in mind that you, him, her, and everyone else may end up thinking this applies to The First Heretic in a few months, so I'm fairly nervous about this, myself.

 

No editor, no marketing guy, no sales dude, no manager, and no authors themselves ever want to release a bad book, just as they never start writing one expecting it'll be bad. There's a process of plot approval, detailed synopsis jazz, intense discussion about plot with colleagues and bosses, midway draft-readings, and a second draft (sometimes with third, fourth or whatever other number of drafts right after it). Then it goes to a lore nut like me or you to proofread and check over for details, before it goes into copy-editing, and then it goes back to the author for the final draft.

 

And at any point, you could get told "This is awful" or "Change that..." or "You missed out this" at any of those stages.

 

As you mentioned it, a big chunk of The First Heretic did indeed go to a high-up at www.thegreatcrusade.co.uk. (Laurie, of Shroud Film fame), as well as Dan Abnett, Dan's wife Nik (who has always edited him, and gave me the best advice I received during the whole writing process), as well as my editor Nick Kyme (himself a 40K author and long-time fan), and 2 other novelists. This process is not unique to me, really. Every novel, ever, goes through it to some degree.

 

For the sake of argument, let's say you think The First Heretic sucks when it's released, and you decide I've wasted 10 months of my life writing it.

 

Firstly, that's mean of you, but I forgive you. This time.

 

Secondly, how did it happen?

 

With any publisher, a novel that's halfway done (let alone a novel with the first draft finished) represents a significant investiture of time and effort for a lot of people. The author has taken months to do it. The advertising is everywhere. Deadlines attack like vultures on a carcass. Marketing and sales and printing and distribution and all of that complicated jazz I barely understand are doing... whatever it is they do. It sounds important when they nag me about it, so I take them at their word.

 

There's only so much time for rewriting, before shunting the release back becomes insanely expensive and complicated schedule-wise. Prohibitively so. Delaying Prospero Burns was a necessary evil, with extenuating circumstances. But no publisher wants to do that too often, as it's a serious, serious kick the teeth. And reeeeeally, why delay something? Is it "good enough"? Is it at least "not bad"? Then there's your answer. It's "not bad". It's "good enough". The same goes for every movie, song, novel, play or whatever else ever released. They all adhere to a similar process. They're intended to be amazing, but they're often just good, and occasionally not bad. Sometimes, just awful.

 

Bajillions of novels are released every month across the world, and they vary in quality. Even on the publisher level, that's obviously true. A book that's "okay" won't exactly be celebrated at the publisher - indeed, that author's chances of being hired again are definitely more limited - but it's done, it'll sell, and it's not torturously bad. So it releases as normal. And then there's taste to take into account: Some people have said Book X was awful, whereas others have loved it, or said it was good because it gave their fave faction some precious lore, or was "good enough" or whatever else.

 

So, like, that's how the "bad" ones get through.

 

Novels (including BL novels), as with any media, will still be released if they're "good enough". That doesn't mean that behind the scenes, everyone is hugging the author and giving him high-fives. It's also a sure-fire way to earn me being mean to said author when we cross paths, because I am categorically not a pleasant human being to be around.

[A D-B]

...the origin of the first dreadnought.

 

Huh.

 

That's... a really killer idea.

[GlennBT]

I was just wondering A D-B if after the Word Bearers you or BL had any plans to do something with everone's favorite terrorist Legion? Was just wondering as i am a huge NL fan and really want to see the Haunter get some love.

[Captain Idaho]

I find it reassuring to know that other major events are going to get some love. I was kinda of the opinion (being a worrying Ultramarines fan) that the battle of Calth would be one of those battles other novels talked of and we would never really see up close (which is an important device in it's own right, but not when it's your 15mins of course).

 

Thank you for your insight A D-B.

 

If I can be so bold, could we ever expect to see a book on each Legion in some form? I was thinking that that would be too excessive (like you said about "filler" novels just for money spinning ideals), but then how are the Legions/Primarchs chosen for representation in a novel?

 

My thoughts are that it is partly a personal preference of the author's desires themselves, the "official" plan and maybe even the existing fan base so sales are considered (as the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels all have a Codex, so logically there are a proportion of people who will sell their grandmother's teeth to read a novel on their favourite Chapters).

[Rain]

I'm sure for every person that said "Aaron did some killer Iron Warrior stuff" there'd be 8,000,000 saying "This guy is a hack and Graham should stab him in the kidneys".

 

And those people would be wrong. Although Storm of Iron was McNeill's best novel as far as I know, it retroactively suffers from the pattern that all of his books have held to in the years since its publication. 1.)The "hero" will win pretty cleanly 2.)All of the somewhat interesting characters will die, usually without being sufficiently explored 3.) Lots of battle scenes involving numbers/sizes of "cyclopean" proportions. I was actually surprised that Soul Hunter ended the way it did. I didn't particularly like it to be honest, but at least I didn't see it coming which has a quality all its own for someone as jaded as myself.

 

That said, I get that he has dibs on the IW, I'm just sad that my favorite legion goes to the guy whose writing makes me hate whoever he writes about, it's a bad sign when the audience wants the hero to just be put out of his misery already (Honsou, Ventris, Fulgrim etc).

[Hyperion]

There's mention of the Alpha Legion defeating the White Scars on Tallarn (curses!) and also the largest tank battle of the Heresy (the Battle of Tallarn) after the Iron Warriors virus bomb the lush planet, and weeks later the survivors leave their underground shelters in millions of sealed tanks to fight across the ravaged surface.

 

Regarding STC - lots of data is recovered during the great crusade (including things like the land raider and vindicator) and it's also a time of progress and experimentation, so it would be really interesting to throw some references to this into the novels, possibly including a whole bunch of 'new' vehicles or strange variants of existing ones (to drive the modellers crazy!). The first Land Raiders and Land Speeders were made at the beginning of the Great Crusade and the Imperial Army had them during the Heresy, not just Astartes. Maybe we could have a book about Arkhan Land himself?