force commander equipting options

[JohnGrammaticus]

I don't know if I should equip him with a power sword, war hammer, or power claws. whats your guys input?

[Ryjak]

Most people roll with a Relic Blade and Storm Shield on their Captain or Master, if they take either one.

[JohnGrammaticus]

thanks

[Warp Angel]

Bike, Relic Blade, Hellfire Rounds

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Relic blade, Stormshield, Artificer armor, Digital weapons.

 

still havent been bested in single combat against daemon princes or anything short of lysander

[mowglie]

Let's consider the "why"s, rather than just tersely repeating the done thing.

 

First of all, what sets the Captain apart from regular guys? What justifies his points cost?

 

The first thing you realise, looking at his statline, is that he's primarily assault-oriented. Point-for-point you get much better shooting elsewhere. He can't even take a genuine Plasma or Melta - let alone something more damaging. A BS5 Storm Bolter isn't worth 100 points.

 

The thing that really sets him apart is his initiative. Our FCs are the only models we have with I above 4. This biases us against Power Fists and Thunder Hammers, because they'd make him strike last.

 

Leaving him vanilla isn't really an option. Without a Power Weapon of some kind, he's pretty tame. Sure, there's a school of thought that says "keep everything cheap", but remember you've already spent 100 points on him. A few more to turn him into something useful is good spend.

 

So, that leaves us with three options: Power Sword, Lightning Claw, Relic Blade. Consider the kinds of targets you want your FC going up against. If you plan on murdering T3 hordes the pair of LCs looks pretty attractive. However, your FC is probably wasted fighting light infantry. Your tactical squads can deal with them just fine. For the same price (or 15pts more vs PS) you get +2S from the Relic Blade which turns him into a capable answer to e.g. MCs, and makes him devastating against T4 heavy infantry.

 

So, the common wisdom is to start with:-

 

130 - Captain (Relic Blade)

 

And add the following to taste (he's a good place to spend that last 10 points!):-

 

Storm Shield (better inv. save)

Artificer Armour (better vs weight-of-fire)

Digi Weapons (helps a bit in assault)

Hellfire Rounds (cheap, and opens up shooting options)

 

If you take a bike captain, the logic is exactly the same - although consider a combi-melta for him.

[Ryjak]

Should have pointed this out earlier... unless you're sticking a Captain on a Bike (unlocking Bikes as Troops), you're mostly buying a cheapish HQ CC unit. If that's what you need, think about looking at Lysander and some others that give you a ridiculous points bargain.

 

The best thing a Captain/Master brings are their associated squads. A Bike Command Squad is pretty solid, and Honor Guard are great if they stay away from power weapons.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Should have pointed this out earlier... unless you're sticking a Captain on a Bike (unlocking Bikes as Troops), you're mostly buying a cheapish HQ CC unit. If that's what you need, think about looking at Lysander and some others that give you a ridiculous points bargain.

 

The best thing a Captain/Master brings are their associated squads. A Bike Command Squad is pretty solid, and Honor Guard are great if they stay away from power weapons.

 

Please explain the bolded part? I thought HG come with 3 weapons including PW by default? Or is there a rule stating that they can only take 2 of the 3 weapons? If so what's the ideal way to outfit an HG?

[Fetterkey]

He's saying that Honor Guard are a good unit as long as you can prevent them from being engaged by *enemy* power weapons, as they have 2+ armor saves but no Invulnerable saves to protect them from power weapons or AP 1/2 attacks.

[Ming]

Yep, honor guard have no access to an invulnerable save...

 

Any captain (or master) with a relic blade cannot get an extra cc attack for a pistol, so might as well have a bolter or storm bolter, and then digital lasers to the reroll on one failed wound roll. Since he typically is already 4+ invulnerable, becomes a judgement on either going with artsy armor (to make hime 2+/4+) or a shield or (3+/3+).

 

Anyone want to experiment with a auxgrenlauncher? I may be experimenting at my next tournament with a pod-borne captain and command squad, spamming plasma or melta and PWs...plus the doc of course to give all of them FNP. Just to see what it may be able to do vs my local opponents (your experience in your metagame may differ)...

[ShinyRhino]

Anyone want to experiment with a auxgrenlauncher?

 

I've wanted to do this for a while. A Chapter Master with an Aux Launcher and Relic Blade, and hellfire rounds in his bolter. Joinhim up with a smallish (3-6) Honour Guard who are stock, but each carrying an Aux Launcher. Slap them in a pod, and drop a bunch of rapid fire bolter shots, plus one Aux Launcher shot per model. Will work nice against horde, but probably not as well versus elite-level units.

 

I may be experimenting at my next tournament with a pod-borne captain and command squad, spamming plasma or melta and PWs...plus the doc of course to give all of them FNP. Just to see what it may be able to do vs my local opponents (your experience in your metagame may differ)...

 

I have this unit built, just not in a pod. 4x plasmaguns, Apothecary, in a Stronos-pattern Razorback. But since I don't do pods, I'd end up placing mine in terrain or a ruin. Ruin is best, as you can spread members out through levels to keep them from all being blasted by the same pie plate at once.

[Nougat]

Any thoughts on a bike captain loadout? Relic blade is a pretty clear choice, but I'm not sure whether artificer armor/storm shield would be worth it.

[ShinyRhino]

Any thoughts on a bike captain loadout? Relic blade is a pretty clear choice, but I'm not sure whether artificer armor/storm shield would be worth it.

 

I always give mine artificer armor. I love that 2+ armor save.

 

Here's a general guideline:

 

If the Bike Captain is attached to a standard Troops Biker squad, give him Artificer Armor. Reason for this is that when attached to such a basic unit, you don't want him going up against things that can knock him down with a single hit, like powerfists or thunderhammers. Bikers have the relative luxury of picking their fights, due to high mobility. You can maneuver enough that you can eliminate the threat of a hidden powerfist hitting your captain by simple model placement. and basing. if you do it right, the only models your captain should be based with are mooks that he can scythe down like wheat. These opponents typically have only basic attacks, which a 2+ armor save is going to laugh at.

 

If the Bike Captain is attached to a Biker Command Squad kitted for close combat, give him a storm shield. This unit combo tends to point itself at the more elite level opposition. The mass of power weapons can chop through a lot of bad guys, but will also have a lot of power attacks coming back at it. The smaller squad size also restricts your chances for keeping the hidden powerfists away from your captain, so the boosted Invulnerable save helps keep him alive. A 2+ arty armor save is 100% useless when facing many powerweapon attacks, so you want to go for the shield.

 

When I have the spare points, I also like to throw hellfire rounds on my Biker Captain. He's got BS5, and on the bike his bolters are twin-linked. That's 1-2 bolter shots that hit on a 2+, reroll misses, and wound on a 2+. Great for forcing armor saves on those elite units before you crash into them, or plinking away at poor-armor troopers from afar.

 

I have never bothered with digital weapons, because I always take the Relic Blade. I'm wounding most non-MCs on a 2 or 3 anyways, so I don't need rerolls.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Any thoughts on a bike captain loadout? Relic blade is a pretty clear choice, but I'm not sure whether artificer armor/storm shield would be worth it.

 

 

 

 

I have never bothered with digital weapons, because I always take the Relic Blade. I'm wounding most non-MCs on a 2 or 3 anyways, so I don't need rerolls.

 

No its not neccesarry at all but when you roll that 1 to wound, and you will, you're going to wish you had it :P

[ShinyRhino]

Any thoughts on a bike captain loadout? Relic blade is a pretty clear choice, but I'm not sure whether artificer armor/storm shield would be worth it.

 

 

 

 

I have never bothered with digital weapons, because I always take the Relic Blade. I'm wounding most non-MCs on a 2 or 3 anyways, so I don't need rerolls.

 

No its not neccesarry at all but when you roll that 1 to wound, and you will, you're going to wish you had it :P

 

Thing is, the Captain has 3 attacks, 4 charging.

Digitals only allow a reroll of ONE failed wound. I could see the points being worth it if it rerolled ALL failed wounds, but in my head, it's just not valuable to reroll one failed wound out of a possible 4, when I only fail on a 1 anyways. A Captain would benefit far more from somehting that gave him a reroll to hit, instead of a reroll to wound!

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I agree with that statement, and when taking relic blade I never used to take digital weapons. However i cant tell you how many times it has saved me since. :P

[Koremu]

I don't see what the problem is with the one reroll limitation - you're probably only going to fail once in the first place!

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Wow, that was so simple it was simply genius.

 

if you roll two 1's to wound with relic blade then your just destined to lose that combat LOL

[Zynk Kaladin]

if you roll two 1's to wound with relic blade then your just destined to lose that combat LOL

 

Considering the bipolar nature of the dice gods and the law of averages, I wouldn't be surprised if that happens at least once with extended use of a relic blade captain. However, that storm shield disagrees with that lost combat destiny ^_^

 

As for the OP, a ws6 s6 a3 i5 dude will smack the crap out of pretty much anything you enemy fields against you. Once you bring the pain your opponent will be like WHAAA and try to nuke the crap out of him. However, your 3 wounds of 3+ armor and invulnerability saves will put a fan in front of the :) he unleashes upon you. Catch my drift?

 

But with any unit you field, you MUST play him/her/it/them smart. That means no stupid moves unless you are 100% sure it is so BA that it makes up for such an awesome tactical error. I like to run him with a x4 plasma gun command squad. This squad hits hard at range and close combat and the apothecary improves the squad's overall survivability substantially. Put them in a rhino and you're set. Like always, make sure he synergizes well with your army.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

What usually happens is out of your 3 attacks 2 usually miss. thats what stands out to me from extended use of relic blade captains..

 

That and the amount of over confident daemon prince heads i've added to my collection :)

[ImperialReaper]

Well I guess it is up to your playingstyle.

 

Me for instance, I have a rule: if it has a WS or T >/= 6, or it has a front, rear and sidearmor - then I wan to SHOOT it. Predators, Devastators, Vindicators, everyone with plasmaweapons and meltas - this is your target.

 

So everything else is close combatable for me. Having this in mind there is mind, there is no need for me to sacrifice the initiative of 5 on my forcecommander for a thunderhammer or powerfist. And if something goes on Initiative 5 - I want it to have as many attacks as possible to take out as much units as possible before they can strike. So the Stormshield is out for me as well since I never get the +1 attack with this - same goes for the relic blade.

 

So my choice would be double powerclaws. Go at initiative 5, get the bonus attack, ignore armor and feel no pain, reroll failed hits. Cuts through a squad of common chaos marines like a knife through butter.

[DarkGuard]

IMO if you're taking a relic blade with a Captain then digi weapons are a must. Consider this, you have one less attack than a 2x LC Captain that can re-roll all failed wounds. Therefore you have to make every attack that hits count. If you roll one 1, then you haven't done that, and only caused 2 wounds (most likely). Therefore, digi weapons are vital to ensure that all the hits you have are converted into wounds as you are only likely to roll one 1 per assault phase.

 

I kitted my Captain out with arty armour, bolter and hellfire rounds (plus RB/DW) because I was using him a support for a shooty Command Squad. HE couldn't carry a SS with his bolter, but I wanted to make sure he had some protection, and it has helped against regular CC attacks as well things like the Avenger. In all honesty, his normal Iron Halo save has served him well against things like multi-meltas and power fists before.

 

My old Captain, however, was a jump Captain, and he had a SS over AA, so that he could weather those inevitable power fist hits more reliably. That I would be able to assign plasma wounds to him instead of my fragile Assault Squad.

 

In the end it comes down to personal taste and preference. Effectiveness wise a Relic Blade is always a good way to start, but you might want to use him in a different way, or be constricted by fluff preferences. However, I do feel a Captain is a reflection on the owner at times, as it can be a personal choice -_-.

[Ryjak]

Here's a general guideline:

 

If the xxxx Captain is attached to a standard Troops xxxxx squad, give him Artificer Armor. Reason for this is that when attached to such a basic unit, you don't want him going up against things that can knock him down with a single hit, like powerfists or thunderhammers... You can maneuver enough that you can eliminate the threat of a hidden powerfist hitting your captain by simple model placement. If you do it right, the only models your captain should be based with are mooks that he can scythe down like wheat. These opponents typically have only basic attacks, which a 2+ armor save is going to laugh at.

 

If the xxxx Captain is attached to a xxxx Command Squad kitted for close combat, give him a storm shield. This unit combo tends to point itself at the more elite level opposition. The mass of power weapons can chop through a lot of bad guys, but will also have a lot of power attacks coming back at it. The smaller squad size also restricts your chances for keeping the hidden powerfists away from your captain, so the boosted Invulnerable save helps keep him alive. A 2+ arty armor save is 100% useless when facing many powerweapon attacks, so you want to go for the shield.

 

When I have the spare points, I also like to throw hellfire rounds on my xxxx Captain. He's got BS5, and on the bike his bolters are twin-linked. That's 1-2 bolter shots that hit on a 2+, reroll misses, and wound on a 2+. Great for forcing armor saves on those elite units before you crash into them, or plinking away at poor-armor troopers from afar.

 

I think this is some of the best advice I've heard regarding a Storm Shield, Artificer Armor, and Hellfire Rounds.... as well as what kind of squads you'll be attaching him to. The advice on using a Captain to stomp on stuff with T5 or softer is pretty solid too. Woul someone mind doing the Math-Hammer to compare a Relic Blade (with and without Digital Weapons) to Twin-lightning Claws? Point cost should be factored in, but you really shouldn't skimp on your Captain.

[Xeonic]

In terms of pure effectiveness:

Lightning Claws(pair) vs MEQ: 5 attacks on the charge 3.35 hits, 2.51 wounds

Relic Blade on the charge vs T4 WS4 MEQ: 4 attacks on the charge, 2.68 hits, 2.22 wounds

Lightning Claw(single) vs MEQ: 4 attacks on the charge, 2.68 hits, 2.01 wounds

Power Sword and pistol vs MEQ 5 attacks on the charge 3.35 hits, 1.68 wounds

 

Vs T5 MEQ(plague marines):

Claws(pair): 1.88 wounds

Relic Blade: 1.8

Claw(single): 1.5

Power Sword: 1.11

 

Vs T6 WS 5(Trygon):

Relic Blade: 1.34

Claws(pair): 1.04

Claw(single) .83

Power Sword: .57

 

Vs T3 WS3(guard):

Claws(pair): 2.98

Claw(single) 2.39

Power Sword: 2.24

Relic Blade: 2.22

 

Basically the power sword is abysmal(single claw is better vs almost any target profile, costs the same), and the relic blade is really nice VS T6+, and about equal to the claws vs T5. Not factored in is how the relic blade or single claw really make wielding a non-pistol ranged weapon a viable alternative(BS5 is always nice!), or a storm shield(which you cannot take with twin claws!). If you want to take a storm shield, take a relic blade, but if you want sheer killing power vs soft troop targets, dual claws might be your best bet. It's worth noting that the Relic blade is pretty handy vs light armor too, but then again, melta bombs are only 5pts. :lol:

 

Sorry, I've no idea how to factor in the single reroll of digi weapons. -_-

 

I generally kit my captain out with a relic blade and arti armor, as well as a combi melta. He tends to go either with a command squad(shooty or CC) or just in with tactical terminators slogging acrost the board. I've been experimenting with other HQs though and haven't fielded him in awhile. :lol:

[Grey Mage]

*shrugs* the killiest Captain Ive encountered to date- BA Captain with twin lightning claws and a jump pack. Slew 4-5 guys reliably, every charge at I6.

 

Of course if we start including Wolf Lords thats another matter... but they arent "captains" per se.

 

Edit: as for factoring in a single reroll take your number of average 'misses' and then divide it by the number of attacks:

 

IE 4 attacks on the charge with a relicblade gives us 2 and 2/3 hits, or 1.3333_ misses. Dividing that by 4 gets us another 1/3, so we have an average of 3 hits. VS T 3 or T 4 it wounds on a 2+, wich gives us an average of 2.5 wounds.

 

Make sense?