What's better?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Are death company ever better than an equivalent points worth of assault marines with a sanguinary priest? For comparison:

 

ASM x10 with Power Fist, Infernus Pistol, and 2x Melta + Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack

 

Total 325

 

A death company squad with similar loadout:

 

Death Company x7 with Power Fist, Infernus Pistol, 3x Power Weapon, Jump packs

 

Total 330

 

Breakdown:

 

DC:

- Superior CC potential

- Don't rely on an IC for FNP and FC

- WS 5

- Relentless (worth a few bolter shots on the way in)

 

ASM:

- Superior anti armor (superior on the deepstrike)

- Combat Squads

- Scoring

- Not raging

- Larger squad

 

The CC difference is significant. The DC have an extra attack and WS 5. But both are still CC monsters. ASM with FNP and FC are going to roll over most non-CC specialists anyway. DC will do better against certain things, but they will still get pwned by power weapon heavy units. Sanguinary guard or Vanguard veterans will probably fair better cost for cost than DC against other tougher targets anyway.

 

So is there ever a reason to take DC rather than just more ASM in a jump army?

[Brother Weasel]

THe extra WS and attack

 

DC dread

 

Lemartes

 

Cool black minis that scare the crap out of people.

[vharing]

even though a lot of BA players have the hate out for DC, I still love them. If anything they are a great distraction for everything else to make it across the board.

[Firedrake28]

So is there ever a reason to take DC rather than just more ASM in a jump army?

 

In an entirely jump army? Not really, no. A jump packing Blood Angels army should have enough FC/FNP bubbles from Honor Guard and Priests to not need a unit that comes with "free" FNP that can't take "proper" melta weaponry (by that I mean meltaguns as opposed to infernus pistols). Also, Death Company with jump packs are hideously, stupidly expensive.

[evileyevirtue]

They are pretty awesome... if it weren't for the inability to control them. That is their biggest losing factor. Other than that, for anti-everything they're ridiculously amazing. Tanks... MC's... squads... they can do it all. Plus, they're a gigantic fire magnet that can take one hell of a beating before they go down. No, they can't take regular melta guns, but that isn't really what they're there for anyway. I think it's pretty amazing to have a bunch of these guys jumping around with boltguns and rapid firing like crazy.

[Emperors Immortals]

They are pretty awesome... if it weren't for the inability to control them. That is their biggest losing factor. Other than that, for anti-everything they're ridiculously amazing. Tanks... MC's... squads... they can do it all. Plus, they're a gigantic fire magnet that can take one hell of a beating before they go down. No, they can't take regular melta guns, but that isn't really what they're there for anyway. I think it's pretty amazing to have a bunch of these guys jumping around with boltguns and rapid firing like crazy.

 

 

For true.

 

TAking it as positive criticism, just put your DC in a DP nearest the largest concentration of enemy armour/elite available and let em rip.

 

 

remember the key to DC is to free and leave 'em. THey WILL charge things you dont want, they WILL run wild, but they will ALWAYS charge the first thing they see, so use it and make it count.

[jeremy1391]

The one thing about dc is that if your opponent doesn't deal with them before they get to his lines there will be blood! Now if your opponent thins em down with floods of fire then they won't be as impressive, but remember the DC are designed for just that, fire and forget and watch the carnage ensue!

 

And to answer the question DC are way better than ASM with SP

It brings a certain fear fActor into your opponent!

[Redo]

I tend to think that the DC with JPs are really worth it and have too much of an uncontrollable element. If you can control them in a SR, LR or rhino I think that they are cheaper and more effective. Obviously that means that there is a unit without JPs; so it is not an all-jump army but that is my take on them. They need to be constrained.

Personally if there was a storm raven, I think that DC on foot with the Raven would still be fluffy.

 

PS I think that the DC Dread with Talons is amazing. If it strikes it usually dishes out an unbelievable amount of hurt; Opponents will try to take it out before it hits your lines and you can only get one with DC.

 

So to answer your question i think the DC are unit that can be better than a RAS, except that they need a transport.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I imagine rage isn't a huge issue if you deepstrike them in the proper location? Can anyone comment on them in that context?

[Volchek]

I prefer the DC blob. 15-20 footslogging DC with an epistolary librarian with Might of Heroes and Unleash Rage. And I use my DC as a protective bubble around my DC dread. I use this mainly to draw fire and then use my Assault Sqds+SP to capture objectives while the other guy is completely focused on my DC blob running crazily at his army.

 

This past weekend my DC blob of 20 DC with a mix of power weapons, a couple of infernus pistols, a couple of PF, and the DC dread wreaked havoc on 2 full strength Plague Marine units and a Chaos dread in 2 turns while taking only 3 deaths.

[Droofus]

I prefer the DC blob. 15-20 footslogging DC with an epistolary librarian with Might of Heroes and Unleash Rage. And I use my DC as a protective bubble around my DC dread. I use this mainly to draw fire and then use my Assault Sqds+SP to capture objectives while the other guy is completely focused on my DC blob running crazily at his army.

 

Not to go off topic (too much), but I'm curious as to why you wouldn't use Sanguinary Shield on your Libby and drop him back to an codicier? Seems like having a 5+ cover against all those things that get through armor and FNP would be useful.

[Somar]

i run 8 DC with 2xPW, 2xPF, chappy and rhino (~400 pts)

my RAS is 10 marines, 2x MG, sarge with PW and IP, SG with JP and PW (~330 pts)

 

both units perform well, but have different roles. the DC will tear up just about anything (huge mobs, elite units, MCs, vehicles) so they are a terror/distraction unit that cannot be ignored, the RAS is more of a surgical tool that will worry about the big picture regarding objectives, enemy units that can contest those etc.

 

i just think that JPs for DC are way overpriced, especially since they might not come into play later due to rage.

[Volchek]

I prefer the DC blob. 15-20 footslogging DC with an epistolary librarian with Might of Heroes and Unleash Rage. And I use my DC as a protective bubble around my DC dread. I use this mainly to draw fire and then use my Assault Sqds+SP to capture objectives while the other guy is completely focused on my DC blob running crazily at his army.

 

Not to go off topic (too much), but I'm curious as to why you wouldn't use Sanguinary Shield on your Libby and drop him back to an codicier? Seems like having a 5+ cover against all those things that get through armor and FNP would be useful.

 

Because of wound allocation, he's always the last to take any wounds anyway. I'd rather have the double-punch offensive spells to maximize the attacks of my DC when they charge something. Might of Heroes is +D3 attacks combined with Unleash Rage for rerolling misses and that A LOT of attacks by one large unit.

[Tame]

I'd rather have the double-punch offensive spells to maximize the attacks of my DC when they charge something. Might of Heroes is +D3 attacks combined with Unleash Rage for rerolling misses and that A LOT of attacks by one large unit.

 

Shield of Sanguinius would give a nice little protection against blast/templates for your big squad, though. and for the re-rolls, a chaplain would be better: the DC would re-roll the wounds too, the only downside is the librarian himself wouldn't get that bonus.

 

For the 50 pts difference (100 - 50), you get 4 more attacks on the charge, re-rolling all DC wounds, almost the same hits re-roll - except without the need to pass a psychic test - and protection against shooting. Your only real loss, beside the points, is the ability to use the second power for the psyker Force Weapon...

[Kurb]

They are pretty awesome... if it weren't for the inability to control them. That is their biggest losing factor. Other than that, for anti-everything they're ridiculously amazing. Tanks... MC's... squads... they can do it all. Plus, they're a gigantic fire magnet that can take one hell of a beating before they go down. No, they can't take regular melta guns, but that isn't really what they're there for anyway. I think it's pretty amazing to have a bunch of these guys jumping around with boltguns and rapid firing like crazy.

 

 

For true.

 

TAking it as positive criticism, just put your DC in a DP nearest the largest concentration of enemy armour/elite available and let em rip.

 

 

remember the key to DC is to free and leave 'em. THey WILL charge things you dont want, they WILL run wild, but they will ALWAYS charge the first thing they see, so use it and make it count.

 

Won't they get shot to heck and back before they are able to do something ?

 

Kurb = new player...

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Won't they get shot to heck and back before they are able to do something ?

 

Probably. But then they aren't shooting the rest of your army, and DC take awhile to die.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think the best way to run Death Company is in a large unit (15) with jump packs and around 4-5 power fists. You might as well take Lemartes as well for his buffs. If you do run a large unit (12+) then it's better to just spend the points on power fists over power weapons. It's a one dimensional unit but they will ravage your opponents. When you field them in a large number they can absorb some damage and keep rolling along. Smaller units are glass hammer and will quickly disappear even with FNP. So in my opinion I'd rather not use the DC but if I do it will end up being a large chunk of my army.

 

0b :)

[evileyevirtue]

One thing to take into account is the actual wording of the Rage special rule. You only have to move towards the closest unit. Nowhere does it say that you have to shoot at or charge the closest unit. So, if you get these guys into some clump of enemy, you still have the choice of where to shoot and assault. Or you can even fun to prevent them from assaulting. Or, you can simply choose not to assault. So, if you get locked onto a unit that you don't think you can take down or don't even want to assault, for whatever reason, you can plain ignore. Maybe an oversight in rules but... those are the rules.

 

I like the idea of running as many JP DC as I can bear to afford. I like nice round numbers like 10, so I try to get 10 into my list. If I can. And Lemartes... because I love his new model and the character.

[Jakobus]

I figure that they are pretty similar on killing power, DC do have a brute force advantage but Assault marines aren't ruled by the Rage rule.

However, attach a chaplain to either squad and the DC will leave the Assault squad in the dust.

 

Over the weekend I played a 1K game against CSM, Spearhead with 5 objectives. The DC rhino was blown up and then the DC and the Chaplain where charge by a squad of Berzerkers. well the DC destroyed them and then went on to kill 2 more 10 man CSM squads.

But on the other side, the 2 Assault marine squads where able to Deepstrike into a position to Melta both the Defiler and the Deamon Prince.

[Volchek]

I'd rather have the double-punch offensive spells to maximize the attacks of my DC when they charge something. Might of Heroes is +D3 attacks combined with Unleash Rage for rerolling misses and that A LOT of attacks by one large unit.

 

Shield of Sanguinius would give a nice little protection against blast/templates for your big squad, though. and for the re-rolls, a chaplain would be better: the DC would re-roll the wounds too, the only downside is the librarian himself wouldn't get that bonus.

 

For the 50 pts difference (100 - 50), you get 4 more attacks on the charge, re-rolling all DC wounds, almost the same hits re-roll - except without the need to pass a psychic test - and protection against shooting. Your only real loss, beside the points, is the ability to use the second power for the psyker Force Weapon...

 

I understand the argument of a chappy over an epistolary libby, but the chappy's reroll hits only works on a charge. If the DC unit is locked in combat they lose the to hit rerolls with a chappy but the libby can use Unleash Rage every turn and compensate for the loss of wound rerolls by upping the number of attacks for the whole unit. I'll take the libby over a chappy for that reason.

[Tame]

I understand the argument of a chappy over an epistolary libby, but the chappy's reroll hits only works on a charge. If the DC unit is locked in combat they lose the to hit rerolls with a chappy but the libby can use Unleash Rage every turn and compensate for the loss of wound rerolls by upping the number of attacks for the whole unit. I'll take the libby over a chappy for that reason.

 

Ah, true, that's a valid argument. I think your main problem would be getting to charge (because of rage) rather than being locked though : I hope that 15 DC charging, that can re-roll hits and wounds don't get locked up in combat too often :-)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would rather reroll hit & wound on the charge rather than just reroll hit all the time. Librarian can be blocked by an enemy hood too.

 

0b :P

[Chimaera2000]

I imagine rage isn't a huge issue if you deepstrike them in the proper location? Can anyone comment on them in that context?

 

In my last couple of games I've been Deep-striking a ten-man Death Company squad with bolters, 2x infernus pistols and 2x power fists. I've deep-struck them within 1" of the biggest, scariest vehicle I can find and melt it first turn. Afterwards I rely on Feel No Pain to see them through the return fire... and with their 24" inch threat range from their bolters, they're going to threaten something on most turns. So far it's worked fairly well for me. In my first two games against my opponents Witch Hunters/Imperial Guard, they've accounted for three Exorcist kills, two Chimaeras and a squad or two of Guardsmen while absorbing fire for my more valuable Assault Marines.