Salamanders - working with the tactical doctrine and fluff

[Gothical]

Hey there folks. The keen-eyed among you will notice that I've had a thread similar to this running in the Index Astartes section of the board, but I think it's rambled a bit and is developing into being relevant for the Tactica Astartes section - hence I'm asking my questions here.

 

I've been playing the game for a little while now, and the background is something that has really kept me going with this game, particularly when I was in places that there were few other players. So it's obviously quite important to me.

 

My favourite force (well, when I'm not playing Imperial Guard) is the Salamanders - I found the background to be truly fascinating, and as an aspiring Blacksmith they just hit a chord with me - I've had a collection of them since their launch in the Armageddon Codex way back in 3rd Edition.

 

I'm looking to create a tabletop representation of the Salamander style of battle in regards to established background. Why is this an issue? It shouldn't be - until you take into account the difficulties/possibilities of current "metagame" unit selection and popular units. Although it is no business of mine, I find myself lamenting the people who take Vulkan and load up on 9 Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers, for (an extreme) example, as it seems to go against a variety of the established background material.

 

So what do we know about the Salamanders, that really affects the tabletop:

 

1) A high degree of Terminator units (120 Veterans in the company that can all be equipped with Terminator Armour) - be it TH/SS Terminators or their shooting bretheren.

 

2) The different Company Structure - 7 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads (and limited Bikes/Land Speeders) and 3 Devastator Squads.

 

3) Mechanisation is vital in 5th edition - and the Salamanders are described as being very pragmatic and not rushing into fights.

 

It's the second one that really gives me trouble, in light of the current "philosophy" regarding unit selection for Codex: Space Marines. Namely that:

 

A ) Tactical Squads are seen as underwhelming (though not by me, someone used to Guardsman statlines) and very expensive to field in large numbers - they prohibit you from taking vital support elements due to cost.

 

B ) Fast Melta is seen as the King of Anti-Tank (Land Raider-class), particularly with Vulkan, though the canon background from both Codex: Armageddon and Index Astartes: Salamanders out-right state that Land Speeders and Bikes are rare sights in a Salamander force due to difficulties in training on such conveyances with fluctuating gravity.

 

C ) Devastators are seen as very poor units, since they are non-scoring and have incredibly expensive weapon-options - and if you keep them small and cheap Sternguard can do their job better.

 

It does not seem that one can make a Salamander army that is viable in the current edition if you are trying to stick to the background. I accept that any force based more on background than "tournament choices" is going to be less-than-competative as opposed to taking an army of the Chapter and loading it with the "mathematically viable" units, however I think it is almost a sin to go against the fantastic background of 40K, particularly with such an iconic, yet different, chapter.

 

So how can I work around the challenges of the background limitations to create a force that isn't stymied by the lack of the "good options" (MM Speeders) and picking the "poor options" (Devastators)? Particularly in light of making the force Mechanised so that it has the mobility key to actually winning 5th Edition games.

 

Essentially, I would like a tactical discourse on what units can be used to make up for the (relative - it's still used) lack of Fast Melta, to compensate for taking Terminators in decent numbers, and working around the static, expensive nature of Devastators, whilst retaining mobility and close-combat prowess without relying on the 500pt sinks of "Terminators + Vulkan + Land Raider" that really cut down the other units contained within the army. Additionally I'd like to see some ideas for creating a hammer-and-anvil style of play, if it's possible.

 

I see many tactical threads advocating the taking of "Fast Melta" units and decrying Devastators for Sternguard, but very little on what to take to work around the fluff of the Salamanders and still have a somewhat-effective force - ie, how to "buffer" the army in light of the "poor" choices. It's never going to be tournament-level competative, but it'd be nice to have a force that isn't curb-stomped every time it's taken to the local gaming store.

 

So, what sort of crazy ideas are running through my mind?

 

I feel that Mechanised is the way to go. It's such a force-multiplier for the Tactical Squad that it seems insane not to use Rhinos to get them around. And since I want to give my key units (lets face it, Troops are key in 5th Edition) a vehicle, it makes sense to mechanise the whole force to add some target saturation into the army.

 

I'm looking at "Tactical Terminators" to complement the force. TH/SS Terminators are excellent units, I cannot begrudge this, but the Salamanders are quite a slow army by nature (as Fast Attack choices are limited) and having a unit or two Deepstriking onto the board with Assault Cannons/Cyclones could be a great way to get around this limitation (if a tad unreliable) - the guns they carry can be used to take out Skimmer Transports and Artillery that's trying to outflank/pound the Tactical Marines, and let's face it, they're still Terminators and aren't exactly slouches in Close Combat, especially when you take the firepower they have to help even the odds.

 

The Salamanders were one of the first Chapters to start fielding Whirlwinds in decent numbers. I'm not sure that there is anything in this, but the Incendiary rounds could help to make up for the loss of fast-moving Heavy Flamers normally toted by Land Speeders - yet it really cuts down on the number of "real tanks" you can field do draw firepower away from the vulnerable Rhinos (but then again, having no vehicle with an AV of greater than 11, and all being equipped with Smoke Launchers/out of LOS might be an advantage in-and-of itself, as it is essentially making the enemy "waste" the points they spent on the heavy-duty anti-tank weapons such as Lascannons and Multi-Meltas as cheaper guns could have done the job of killing the transports and left the player with more troops to deal with the Marines inside them).

 

Devastators should be represented in the army. I know they're fairly sucky, but I can see there being some sort of use to them, particularly as everybody loads up to counter Mechanised/vehicle-heavy builds - Predators and so forth don't tend to be able to fire, as they are "stun-locked", if not destroyed, by the quantities of anti-tank firepower out there in this edition. Having some firepower on a body of troops that does not suffer such limitations (although it has other drawbacks) might actually be handy for once.

 

Talking about mechanisation and firepower has drawn me on to the real key thing that I wanted to ask about in this thread: how important is long-ranged firepower in a Mechanised/short-ranged army?

 

Basically, I have been trying to fit in effective short-ranged firepower and long-ranged anti-tank firepower into my army lists, going by the old guide to the Marines that "you should always have some Lascannon pointed down the field" - however I am wondering if such a strategy is actually working *against* the Salamanders force (in general) for a two-fold reason. 1) It means that less points are invested in the area that Salamanders truly shine, the 12-24" range bracket and 2) It gives the enemy some easy choices - they can focus on taking out your long-ranged anti-tank firepower whilst the Meltas are still out of range, and then focus on eliminating the shorter-ranged threats before they can actually eliminate their tanks. The points-limit (games are usually 1500-2000 points in my area) just doesn't lend itself well to trying to split the force in this manner.

 

This is my concern regarding the "hammer and anvil" approach, which if well applied (I've no idea, the idea popped into my head writing this thread) could help fix this - having the long-ranged firepower on the more mobile platforms (Predators, Dreadnoughts, Razorbacks) that can pound away while the Tacticals advance, possibly drawing the enemy towards them - then they can push forwards and Tank-Shock/Assault/deploy held Troops (respectively) to act as a secondary "hammer" - "Be the anvil, become the hammer" as it were in the Salamanders creed.

 

But, in tactical terms, do you think it can be viable - given the proliferation of Melta weaponry potentially in the Salamanders army (even a fluffy one light on Bikes/Attack Bikes/Land Speeders) - to simply ignore the long-range options and go for an all-out short-ranged attack? It's something I am mulling over - it seems like a bad idea to not have a single long-ranged weapon, yet by avoiding the expensive Lascannon units (ie Predators/Dreadnoughts/Devastators) you can take a greater number of short-ranged weapons to really it the enemy hard...IF you can get in range, which could be difficult against some opponents (ie Guard). In short, you avoid the long-ranged options to really hammer the enemy hard at short-range, and hope you have enough bodies/mobility to survive to do so.

 

So really, is long-ranged firepower important in a short-ranged army that the Salamanders typically are (to cover the army as it moves up into range, or to draw the enemy in); or can it be avoided in order to increase the army's strength in the range-band - 12-14" really, TH/SS Terminators aside for a moment - that it excells in (making up for the loss of range via a great weight of fire up-close)?

 

I'd be really greatful for any thoughts on this matter as it is proving to be quite a conundrum for me!

[DarkGuard]

First off, may I applaud you for sticking to your guns and staying with the fluff aspect of the game, rather than following cookie cutter lists and other things that may detract from the fluff. I myself went that way for a while, before I shunned special characters and focussed on the fluff of my own Chapter.

 

As for what you could do to help with a fluffy list, I would recommend you have some long ranged firepower (anti-tank is essential for locking down opponent transports) and then have your short-ranged stuff in your Tactical Squads. So if I were you, keep those Devastators, and give them a lascannon and 3x missile launchers. I have run that unit before and it is good. In kill points you keep the unit together, and can focus on infantry or tanks without loosing much effectiveness. In objective missions you split it down into a lascannon squad with the Sergeant, and 3 missile launchers. This lets you target two transports in one turn, with your more powerful and accurate lascannon (thanks to the signum), and your high amount of missile launchers. Your missile launcher can even attack enemy infantry. The only problem I had with this unit was deploying it in DoW, where they would need one or two turns to set up before attacking.

 

Are you planning on using Vulkan? If so it would be worth looking at Assault Terminators as THs do benefit from him, and I'm pretty sure it's fluffy. Otherwise, Tactical Terminators tend to be better deploying on the board, but a 10 man unit with two cyclone MLs can be threatening.

 

I really hope you do well with this, always good to see some fluff with the lists.

[Gothical]

First off, may I applaud you for sticking to your guns and staying with the fluff aspect of the game, rather than following cookie cutter lists and other things that may detract from the fluff. I myself went that way for a while, before I shunned special characters and focussed on the fluff of my own Chapter.

 

Thank you - it's nice to hear that for a change :P

 

As for what you could do to help with a fluffy list, I would recommend you have some long ranged firepower (anti-tank is essential for locking down opponent transports) and then have your short-ranged stuff in your Tactical Squads. So if I were you, keep those Devastators, and give them a lascannon and 3x missile launchers. I have run that unit before and it is good. In kill points you keep the unit together, and can focus on infantry or tanks without loosing much effectiveness. In objective missions you split it down into a lascannon squad with the Sergeant, and 3 missile launchers. This lets you target two transports in one turn, with your more powerful and accurate lascannon (thanks to the signum), and your high amount of missile launchers. Your missile launcher can even attack enemy infantry. The only problem I had with this unit was deploying it in DoW, where they would need one or two turns to set up before attacking.

 

Well here's the thing - those Devastators cost 285 points. Yes, they'll provide some excellent anti-tank options to the force, but then they need their own support. Could it not be better to spend that many points on something powerful at short-range, like a couple of Vindicators?

 

That's what I'm struggling with at the moment. I like the idea of Devastators and Whirlwinds/Predators forming a "back line" with a Tactical Squad and Dreadnoughts holding mid-field whilst a couple of Tactical Squads and the Command Squad attack the enemy on a flank. But I can't help thinking that the points on the Devs and Whilwinds/Predators might be better spent bulking up the mid-field section.

 

Are you planning on using Vulkan? If so it would be worth looking at Assault Terminators as THs do benefit from him, and I'm pretty sure it's fluffy. Otherwise, Tactical Terminators tend to be better deploying on the board, but a 10 man unit with two cyclone MLs can be threatening.

 

I was thinking of not using him - as I want my Command Squad on the field. He's a great support character and a dab hand in a fight - but costs too much when everything else is taken into account.

 

I really hope you do well with this, always good to see some fluff with the lists.

 

Thank you - I'm still struggling at the moment but hopefully I'll get there :P

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Its nice to see a player who builds a fluffy army, it should be fun to use!

 

As you said there are certain elements of a salamanders which are almost non existant, but that doesnt mean they cant appear. I mean the land speeder for example could be just the one in your army to show they are rare and would get some fast melta into your army. If you dont want these units in your army i can respect that, just throwing out ideas.

 

Also Vulkan although costly and seen a lot in lists, appears a lot in lists for that reason, hes good. An army of melta and flamer units and Vulkan in LR with Assault Termies is popular and dangerous because of the power he packs into it. Though yes he lacks any command squad options :P

 

Good luck with the list! :P

[mowglie]

Although it is no business of mine, I find myself lamenting the people who take Vulkan and load up on 9 Land Speeders with Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers, for (an extreme) example, as it seems to go against a variety of the established background material.

 

Actually, I find myself lamenting the opposite: that the "fluff" asks you to do stuff that is rubbish on the tabletop. Space Marines are supposed to be elite, and yet the fluff is choc-full of obviously sub-optimal choices.

 

There should be more effort put into making fluffy choices good choices.

 

/wishful thinking

 

On-topic, unfortunately infantry MM are a bit rubbish, and devastators get punished hard by DoW.

 

I don't think it's "viable" from the PoV of a competitive player. C:SM is already arguably weaker than BA or SW (or IG, or Orks). The beardiest tricks we can pull barely even the playing field. Locking yourself out of one of our best units and into one of our worst is alas bound to hurt your chances of winning.

 

My honest advice is to just accept that. Find some players who feel the same as you, and who'll play for the fun of it rather than to win. Try other ways of picking scenarios (Devastators are much better if you don't have to risk DoW after all). Try Apoc, Planetstrike, or especially City Fight.

 

Don't be afraid to bend the representation of your list to suit the fluff. So Sternguard are better than Devastators? Obviously Salamander Devastators are elite enough to be represented by Sternguard. Problem solved. Not saying I agree that sternguard-devastators are any good without Pedro, but hey. You could even use the SW codex (much better Devastators, much better Tactical Squad, You can build an extremely individual Wolf Guard unit representing your veterans with weapons they've crafted themselves).

 

Are you taking Vulkan? A LR full of TH/SS will even the playing field a bit - especially if you either bring something to deal with your opponent's fast melta, or bring enough targets to split their fire (or both - Combi-preds? Dreds?)

 

Do not underestimate a tactical squad with flamer + combiflamer. They can pop out the side of a Rhino and put dozens of wounds onto infantry.

 

With a bit of effort, you can certainly make an army that "works".

 

Don't expect to beat Leafblower, Loganwing, any of the powerful builds BA can make, etc though.

[Ming]

Hmmmm... food for thought. I'd design some force restrictions to really get Salamander like...coming from a volcanic high grav world with lots of metallic resources....

 

Vulkan or a stick-built Captain and command squad, meltas. Captain has to have artsy armor. No plasma.

master of the Forge?

Librarians

 

Elites:

Ironclad or venerable dreads

Assault terminators w/ landraiders

Regular terminators w/ heavy flamers or cyclones w/ landraiders

 

Troops:

Tactical squads with melta, meltagun, flamer, rhinos or razors. No lascannons or plasmacannons.

 

Fast attack:

Marines mounted on dragons or lizzards - counts as bikers. Attackbikes can be somehow created in a similar fashion.

 

Heavy support -

Whirlwinds

Vindies

dev squads in rhinos BUT only 2 heavy weapons each. No lascannons or plasmacannons.

Preds but with no lascannons or plasma.

 

So - no jump packs. No speeders. No scouts. No Vanguards or Sternguards (doctrine says those guys are in TDS all the time). No chaplains?

 

To stay in doctrine - each list needs to include minimum of 1 term squad : 2 tac squads : 1 heavy choice.

 

I bet there are fan codexes out there someplace that have Salamanders all mapped out.

[Jackelope King]

I have to shake my head a bit at mowglie's perception that Codex: Space Marines is weaker than Blood Angels, Space Wolves or (the real headbanger) orks, but that's for a whole 'nother thread.

 

If you're not taking Vulkan, you're really short-changing yourself beyond even denying yourself fast melta, but let's see if there's anything we can do to make the concept workable. Since you don't have fast melta, you really want to make what melta you can get on the table more reliable, which Vulkan does (he tweaks those Multimeltas sitting atop your two land raiders after he polishes the thunder hammers the terminators inside are carrying). Obviously this skill is put to its best use if you have fast melta to be made even more deadly, but we have some other options.

 

One possibly workable non-Vulkan Salamander-ish list would be Razorback spam, or partial Razorback spam. Since you're basically going to be ignoring the fast attack slot, you need long-ranged firepower to work for it. So how's about a squad of 10 TH/SS termies on foot (yes, on foot), standing in front of... let's say 2x TLAC Dreads, 3x Dakka Preds, and then we can probably manage 5-6 Las/Plas Razorback squads. Against shooty armies like IG or Tau, the Terminators represent an "oh crap" unit that you can either deep strike or just run across the table which must be dealt with first, taking fire off of your smaller number of shooty units. Against more assault-oriented armies, asking them to fight through 10 TH/SS termies to get at your squishier squads is basically a giant "I dare you to come over here" sign. Note that I wouldn't use these guys as counter-assault: I'd actually use them as Skirmishers, deployed out to melta range, to protect your Mech and smoosh anyone who tries to come into midfield.

 

Since you're passing up on Typhoons (which are some excellent firebase speeders... are you sure you can't do something like convert buggy-style landspeeders?), you really want to get your firepower elsewhere, with the razorbacks, preds, and dreads. If you wind up having the points (and since you're not using your FA slots, you probably will), I'd definitely upgrade the Dakka Preds to autocannon / las-cannon sponsons preds. If you still have points, give the Librarian Terminator armor. Null Zone in a squad of TH/SS termies is terrifying. Now give him Vortex of Doom to boot, so against shooty armies when you deep strike, the squad has an even-more-credible threat profile on the turn they arrive. I also think you need to blow some points on hunter-killer missiles in this kind of force, because you need to be able to cripple enemy mech early.

 

I don't think trying to cram a Command Squad into this sort of army is really going to wind up being worth it. You can't afford to pass up fast melta and bolstering what little melta you already have and psychic defenses. A naked captain + naked command squad is going to set you back more than any of the above options would by a lot and no do a whole heck of a lot.

[Gothical]

*snip*

 

Thanks for the ideas - I'm not totally going to pass up on Plasma/Las and Fast Attack options, just limit them (the Salamanders have good relations with the Ad Mech and can get hold of lots of rare tech, so Plasma and Las do fit in - just not in huge numbers). Additionally each company still has 2 Assault Squads - I kinda limit myself by saying that I won't have any more Fast Attack marines (Assault Marines, Speeder pilots etc) than Devastators - which is usually 5 of each due to points-limit :P

 

I have to shake my head a bit at mowglie's perception that Codex: Space Marines is weaker than Blood Angels, Space Wolves or (the real headbanger) orks, but that's for a whole 'nother thread.

 

If you're not taking Vulkan, you're really short-changing yourself beyond even denying yourself fast melta, but let's see if there's anything we can do to make the concept workable. Since you don't have fast melta, you really want to make what melta you can get on the table more reliable, which Vulkan does (he tweaks those Multimeltas sitting atop your two land raiders after he polishes the thunder hammers the terminators inside are carrying). Obviously this skill is put to its best use if you have fast melta to be made even more deadly, but we have some other options.

 

Yeah, I know he's awesome. I just really want to use my converted Captain and Command Squad (which I bought the parts for pre-5th Edition and pre-Vulkan). I have been debating taking him in the guise of a Master of the Forge - it's the points-limit that's hampering, as 190 is a helluva lot for a single Marine (a well-equipped Marine, but Marine none-the-less)

 

One possibly workable non-Vulkan Salamander-ish list would be Razorback spam, or partial Razorback spam. Since you're basically going to be ignoring the fast attack slot, you need long-ranged firepower to work for it. So how's about a squad of 10 TH/SS termies on foot (yes, on foot), standing in front of... let's say 2x TLAC Dreads, 3x Dakka Preds, and then we can probably manage 5-6 Las/Plas Razorback squads. Against shooty armies like IG or Tau, the Terminators represent an "oh crap" unit that you can either deep strike or just run across the table which must be dealt with first, taking fire off of your smaller number of shooty units. Against more assault-oriented armies, asking them to fight through 10 TH/SS termies to get at your squishier squads is basically a giant "I dare you to come over here" sign. Note that I wouldn't use these guys as counter-assault: I'd actually use them as Skirmishers, deployed out to melta range, to protect your Mech and smoosh anyone who tries to come into midfield.

 

I was thinking of a partial-'Back spam list as it is.

 

Sort of:

 

Captain + Command Squad in HF Razorback

2x 5-man Tacticals in Assault Cannon Razorbacks

2x 10-man Tacticals in Rhinos

 

I can chuck in a pair of Dreads or Predators to give some real ranged firepower, supported by the Devastators, but then points start to get tight for Terminators and some sort of Fast unit too.

 

It's around 1200 points right there, but it's a fair few solid Marine squads with some heavy firepower and scoring ability. I just worry that a full 5-6 5-man units in Razorbacks will mean each unit is too vulnerable to enemy firepower, even if it squeezes in a lot of heavy weapons. I reckon that chucking in a couple of larger squads might be a good idea to give me more control on the field - the enemy has to choose between tackling the larger Scoring units or the smaller Scoring units with ranged capabilities - and that's before things like Terminators are mentioned.

 

Since you're passing up on Typhoons (which are some excellent firebase speeders... are you sure you can't do something like convert buggy-style landspeeders?), you really want to get your firepower elsewhere, with the razorbacks, preds, and dreads. If you wind up having the points (and since you're not using your FA slots, you probably will), I'd definitely upgrade the Dakka Preds to autocannon / las-cannon sponsons preds. If you still have points, give the Librarian Terminator armor. Null Zone in a squad of TH/SS termies is terrifying. Now give him Vortex of Doom to boot, so against shooty armies when you deep strike, the squad has an even-more-credible threat profile on the turn they arrive. I also think you need to blow some points on hunter-killer missiles in this kind of force, because you need to be able to cripple enemy mech early.

 

I won't necessarily write off Typhoons - I'm keeping one Fast Attack slot open after all. I'm just not sure what to take with it - Bike Squads offer decent flexibility (fast-flamer or fast-melta), Typhoons some Fire Support and Tornadoes offer fast-moving Multi-Meltas to the army. It's hard to choose between the lot of them - particularly given the usefulness that fast-melta units give to any force.

 

I don't think trying to cram a Command Squad into this sort of army is really going to wind up being worth it. You can't afford to pass up fast melta and bolstering what little melta you already have and psychic defenses. A naked captain + naked command squad is going to set you back more than any of the above options would by a lot and no do a whole heck of a lot.

 

Yeah, I know - but I spent money on the unit when they were still reasonable to use (and before we knew about Vulkan), so I'm trying to make the sodding thing work. I quite like using it to bolster some existing Tactical Squads, giving the "section" some assault capability in lieu of Assault Squads, as they're kinda limited for me sticking to the fluff.

 

Psychic Defence isn't hugely needed in my area - most people play Marines, and opt for Special Characters instead of Librarians (as I said, 9 of 14 players use Vulkan!), and I'm not too worried about them. There is a Space Wolf player with a thing for Rune Priests (especially Jaws of the World Wolf) but being Mechanised sorts that problem quite nicely. The other players don't have much in the way of Psychic assault capability either. So I'm hoping I can avoid the Librarian issue altogether, which at least gives me the slot (if not the points) for Vulkan.

[Ming]

Going along my original thinking and some added thoughts above...add scouts but proxy in the forgeworld dunebuggy for their transport...assault squads with no jump packs...

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think that the most important thing is that you build the army the way you want, so knock up a list that you really like the look of. In the game there are choices which will be more appealing to use because of the way they work (such as fast melta being decent anti tank) but thats not to say you wont have decent games with other options (like a lascannon pred for instance)

 

I can totally respect the want to avoid vulkan i don't want to use him either....but lets break the lad down because hes rather good value for money:

 

Artificer Armour

Master Crafted - Relic blade

Digital Weapons

Heavy Flamer

 

On a regular captain thats lets say (since some of this gear is unique) 175 points. For 15 more thats a whole army upgraded to use twin linked which aint bad!

 

 

Now If you wanna use a command squad and use it with your captain, should make you a bit more unique a sallie player to not use old Vulkan..and still fluffy!

 

I think you'll have to find a balance. Knock up a list of units you really want to use and a list of units you dont want to touch. Then look perhaps in the in between for anything that can do a job you are looking for. Playing by fluff should give you some fun and challenging games and i hope you do well :D

[DarkGuard]

As for what you could do to help with a fluffy list, I would recommend you have some long ranged firepower (anti-tank is essential for locking down opponent transports) and then have your short-ranged stuff in your Tactical Squads. So if I were you, keep those Devastators, and give them a lascannon and 3x missile launchers. I have run that unit before and it is good. In kill points you keep the unit together, and can focus on infantry or tanks without loosing much effectiveness. In objective missions you split it down into a lascannon squad with the Sergeant, and 3 missile launchers. This lets you target two transports in one turn, with your more powerful and accurate lascannon (thanks to the signum), and your high amount of missile launchers. Your missile launcher can even attack enemy infantry. The only problem I had with this unit was deploying it in DoW, where they would need one or two turns to set up before attacking.

 

Well here's the thing - those Devastators cost 285 points. Yes, they'll provide some excellent anti-tank options to the force, but then they need their own support. Could it not be better to spend that many points on something powerful at short-range, like a couple of Vindicators?

 

That's what I'm struggling with at the moment. I like the idea of Devastators and Whirlwinds/Predators forming a "back line" with a Tactical Squad and Dreadnoughts holding mid-field whilst a couple of Tactical Squads and the Command Squad attack the enemy on a flank. But I can't help thinking that the points on the Devs and Whilwinds/Predators might be better spent bulking up the mid-field section.

 

But yet used properly those Devastators can be worth their points. Consider the amount of firepower they bring to the table, the lethal accuracy of the lascannon, and the fact that one lascannon shot will not stop them all from firing the next turn. Add in expendable bodies and cover saves (if you're in cover), and you have a resilient long-ranged anti-tank unit. Seriously, I loved using them except for DoW missions, which did convince me to switch to Vindicators and Typhoons.

[Gothical]

Well thanks a lot folks, the advice in here has been really helpful.

 

I've knocked up a few army lists that I think have some potential, based on ideas from this thread, and I'd be really glad if someone were to take a look and give me some feedback - there's a few, so it doesn't have to be detailed - just which of the lists is the strongest in it's current state.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=208387

 

Anyway, thanks again for all your help so far!

[jaspiongitburna]

Have you considered quad multimelta devastator squads ? They can be tricky to use and you certainly couldn't use them in the way you describe above (holding the back line) but they'd allow you to fulfill some of your fluff requirements and give you a bit of flexibility elsewhere in the list - allowing you to perhaps take a couple of emergency lascannons in your tac squads (or stick to the free missile launcher!)

 

I have a quad melta squad of my own and tend to use it as a static tactical squad in a defensive , ground holding sort of role, rather than a fire support role. A holding midfielder in football parlance. I found that it helps to envisage the Multimeltas as super-plasmaguns rather than traditional heavy weapons when thinking of how to get the best from the squad, and give the sergeant a powerfist in case they get asaulted ( as they are positioned further forward than usual) If you already take a techmarine (or thunderfire ) in your list, they'd be a prime candidate for sitting in those reinforced ruins (you'd pick one in a dominating position)

[Brother Xeones]

Remember that techies can only bolster ruins in your own deployment zone. That's not going to do much good to a unit in the "midfield".

[jaspiongitburna]

Well, sure the bolstered ruins (if you had any) will sometimes be too far back to help, but not every mission available forces you to play in a strip. There'll be occasions when its entirely useless (stuff forced to come in from reserve) and others when it could be really useful (all-round defence from the Battle Missions book immediately springs to mind). It really depends on the variety of missions you play. THere's certainly no hard and fast "this will always work" scenario which can be posted up and held as gospel.

[chaplain belisarius]

@the OP-Hope the army is going well mate. Im trying to stick to the restrictions in codex armageddon and have opened up a thread with some ideas for salamanders(i love fielding a fluffy army too..)

 

Good luck!

[Brother Xeones]

Well, sure the bolstered ruins (if you had any) will sometimes be too far back to help, but not every mission available forces you to play in a strip. There'll be occasions when its entirely useless (stuff forced to come in from reserve) and others when it could be really useful (all-round defence from the Battle Missions book immediately springs to mind). It really depends on the variety of missions you play. THere's certainly no hard and fast "this will always work" scenario which can be posted up and held as gospel.

 

No, I get you. I merely pointed that out because you were talking about MM Devs in the context of "A holding midfielder". Which, obviously means that it'll be tough to place them in such a way that they are in the "midfield" while still benefiting from a +1 cover save in your deployment zone.

 

Also, to the OP, your list choices are interesting. I am a bit surprised to you don't have as many melta and flamer weapons in there as I assumed you would. However, I guess, most "fluffy" lists have a tendency to really over-emphasize the flavorful aspects of the chapter for the sake of differentiating it from a typical codex chapter--for example, no doubt the white scars chapter fields devastator squads, but most tabletop lists are going to be running bikes and speeders almost exclusively to really differentiate themselves from a "normal" marine list.

 

That said, I think my preference for building a Sallies list would be to go for broke on meltas and flamers just because it so obviously screams Salamanders. I respect your more balanced and "realistic" approach however.