Great Company size

[Grimtooth]

So I am proposing the idea that each of the Great Companies of the Space Wolves are equal to a Space Marine Chapter.

 

Now I have participate in many debates at the size of our Great Companies. My stance has always been that due to the Space Wolves Legion only every having been divided once to create the Wolfbrothers Chapter, that the Great Companies would not be the same size of Space Marine Companies. That each Great Company would be equal in size to a Space Marine Chapter. Of course opposing views come up with unsubstantiated attrition numbers to support that the Great Companies are equal in size to a Space Marine Company.

 

I would like to direct your attention to page 14 of Codex Space Wolves, The Great Companies. At the end of the third paragraph we have this comparision,

 

Thus the Great Companies are not fixed in the manner of other Space Marine Chapters, but change throughout the ages as one leader succeeds another.

 

Now why compare the Great Companies to Space Marine Chapters? Why place the structure and processes of the Great Companies in comparison to Space Marine Chapters? If the Great Companies are supposed to be equal to Space Marine Companies, why are they not compared?

 

The only answer I can see that explains this reason is that the Great Companies are indeed equivalent to Space Marine Chapter. That our Space Wolves Chapter is really equivalent to 12 individual Space Marine Chapters. The Space Wolves Legion still exists, albeit under the guise of being 12 individual Great Companies.

 

I can see how this would satisfy Guilliman and the Space Wolves non-adherence to the Codex Astartes. The goal of the Codex Astartes was to prevent the fall of an entire Legion to Chaos as had happened during the Horus Heresy. Well, the Space Wolves have 12 Great Companies, each for the most part operating autonomously from each other. Yes they do follow orders of the Great Wolf, but Wolf Lords are noted to have given up their vows to the current Great Wolf to follow what they believe is the will of Russ. So in theory, a Great Wolf could fall to Chaos, but individual Wolf Lords could rebel under the united banner of Leman Russ and the Allfather. Likewise, one Wolf Lord could fall to Chaos, but would then face the wrath of the remaining Great Companies of the "Legion/Chapter".

 

I would ask that anyone feel free to poke holes in this theory.

[Grimtooth]

Just something I wanted to put in, but did not find the words till just now.

 

The essence of my referenced quote is that they are comparing a Wolf Lord to a Chapter Master, not to a Company Commander. Why is this so?

[Bikeninja]

I think it is a more of a bad sentence than anything else. While I'll agree that the Great Companies are bigger than the average company of Space Marines, to say that they are Chapter size is a stretch. Especially since this has never been stated before.

 

I really believe that they intended to say companies instead of chapter. The books are full little things like this. I remember a guy awhile back who believed the Wolfbrothers were actually fake and Russ created the story to hide the Chapters numbers so that could stay together.

[Valerian]

Ragnar's Great Company has about 200 men in it, and his is the second largest. Only Logan Grimnar's personal Great Company is larger. The whole Chapter most likely has less than 2,000 Marines.

 

Valerian

[Tsavong Lah]

Interesting, but source?

[Grimtooth]

I think it is a more of a bad sentence than anything else. While I'll agree that the Great Companies are bigger than the average company of Space Marines, to say that they are Chapter size is a stretch. Especially since this has never been stated before.

 

I really believe that they intended to say companies instead of chapter. The books are full little things like this. I remember a guy awhile back who believed the Wolfbrothers were actually fake and Russ created the story to hide the Chapters numbers so that could stay together.

 

It has always been known that the Space Wolves have no 2nd Founding, that is undisputed in pretty much every Space Wolves codex and Space Marines codex. If we go by what was intended by the Codex Astartes, the attempt to create the 2nd Founding Wolfbrothers would have been 1000 Space Wolves or 1000 Space Wolves geneseed. Where are all the rest? If you want to point out attrition (death, lost to warp, etc, etc) then you would have to believe that the Space Wolves stopped recruiting, COMPLETELY. That even if they were only slightly larger then a Space Marine Chapter, lets say 1500 Space Wolves, then the Space Wolves purposely bled themselves of approximately 5000 brethren, without recruiting, over a span of 10000yrs. Not likely in the slightest.

 

If your only way to poke a hole in a theory is that it is a misprint, then I think that a Wolf Lord's stats are all just misprints and he needs to have +10 added to each stat. ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

there is no good answer.

 

i believe our numbers are larger than it appears, for if fenris could supply enough recruits to keep a legion in strength, why would we stop that practice due to some book which we larglely ignore?

 

but in print, fluff wise, there is no evidence to back this belief up.

 

WLK

[Grimtooth]

Ragnar's Great Company has about 200 men in it, and his is the second largest. Only Logan Grimnar's personal Great Company is larger. The whole Chapter most likely has less than 2,000 Marines.

 

Valerian

 

Quote the source correctly so it is not taken out of context Valerian,

The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all.

 

Specifying "battle-hardened warriors" sure leaves out a bunch of units that could not be considered "battle-hardened" and not be part of that two hundred.

[Grimtooth]

there is no good answer.

 

i believe our numbers are larger than it appears, for if fenris could supply enough recruits to keep a legion in strength, why would we stop that practice due to some book which we larglely ignore?

 

but in print, fluff wise, there is no evidence to back this belief up.

 

WLK

 

I think it is backed up. Another example would be the description of a Great Company, pg 14 second paragraph,

 

Each Great Company has its own headquarters and territory with the Space Wolves' massive Chapter-fortress, and has its own spacecraft, armoury, forges, and other facilities.

 

If you cross reference codex Space Marines, the emboldened assets above DO NOT happen at the company level but only at the Chapter level. Furthermore, such expenditure of assets and resources for what some suggest is only for 100-200 Space Wolves is preposterous? To then suggest that it would then be for the other 11 Great Companies as well? Yet each Great Company has these assets at their command.

 

Cross reference "The Company of the Great Wolf" pg14, Codex Space Wolves and "Ultra Marines Chapter Organisation" pg 17 Codex Space Marines,

The Company of the Great Wolf is effectively another company in itself but it differs from the Great Company in some important respects.

 

As compared to the Chapter Command of Marneus Calgar.

 

Logan has an entire company to himself, with all the above quoted/emboldened assets, to himself, which is then repeated 11 times over within each of the Great Companies for each Wolf Lord. All items that are clearly lacking for Marneus Calgar's Chapter Command and within all of his Companies for each Captain.

[S. Bloodhowl]

Each Great Company has its own headquarters and territory with the Space Wolves' massive Chapter-fortress, and has its own spacecraft, armoury, forges, and other facilities.

 

If you cross reference codex Space Marines, the emboldened assets above DO NOT happen at the company level but only at the Chapter level. Furthermore, such expenditure of assets and resources for what some suggest is only for 100-200 Space Wolves is preposterous? To then suggest that it would then be for the other 11 Great Companies as well? Yet each Great Company has these assets at their command.

 

 

You just stabbed you self in the back there mate, as you and others have said we are not a codex chapter, so therefore we do not follow the rules as to what assets/facilities a company is allowed and what a chapter must share. Although saying that each Great company is chapter strength is a bit of a stretch (and you were really clutching at straws when you said that the 200 battle hardened warriors of Ragnar's company were only the vets). Sorry, but I think you've been caught out by a grammatical error :)

[hmk17]

Not so at all. Making a comparison between the two does not invalidate the argument. While slightly awkwardly worded, he is drawing a comparison that the Wolves assets per company are comparable to the assets many entire chapters.

 

However, not even all "codex" chapters are the same in regards to assests. Salamanders, Ultramarines, and Black Templars being first to mind. The Ultramarine novels give a glimpse that there are certain "Company Vessels", but the chapter as a whole controls the fleet. Ventris went so far as to promote his company's ship master to the 4th Company Captain's rightful position... Master of the Fleet. Comparing individual chapters will bring a better understanding rather than lumping all "codex chapters" together as there is GREAT diversity among them despite being "codex".

 

On a whole, it is a slightly shaky foundation. However, the argument can still be made. Bottom line, we do know the Wolves boast more warriors than most every other chapter and that each Great Company has retained more shape from the Legion days.

[Sharpsilver]

Estimated Space Wolves Chapter Strength = 1500-2000 + Logan's unknown and unspecified Great Company Strength.

 

If you still count the 13th Company still as part of the Chapter, then they would number anywhere between 2,000 and 4,000. Obviously taking the death toll/losses for many thousands of years within the Eye of Terror. A good estimate might be between 1,500 and 2500.

[Simo429]

The templars are the largest chapter with about 4000 if I remember correctly we are the second largest

[S. Bloodhowl]

Estimated Space Wolves Chapter Strength = 1500-2000 + Logan's unknown and unspecified Great Company Strength.

 

If you still count the 13th Company still as part of the Chapter, then they would number anywhere between 2,000 and 4,000. Obviously taking the death toll/losses for many thousands of years within the Eye of Terror. A good estimate might be between 1,500 and 2500.

 

Space Wolves dont die, they're just missing in action

[Wysten]

Aye, to say that the wolves are chapter sized is a pushed, since even if we are talking just hardened warriors, we know that there are less blood claws then vets due to their terrible attrition rate. I can't remember the exact number, but it would add between 50/70 to their number, with much of the command structure being listed within their fighting classes (Wolf Guard, Lord) or within the great company itself. (Rune, Wolf and Iron Priests)

 

Though, assuming the other chapters techically lie about their marine sizes by putting roughly half their number in support roles, it would be ironic that we were the only honest chapter about our marine size. XD Typically, I would like to imagine chapters to be bigger anyways. Though I guess thats due to marines on table top not being as tough as in the books.

[Beef]

The templars are the largest chapter with about 4000 if I remember correctly we are the second largest

 

 

Templars were estimated at 6000, But dont forget the DA who with the combined might of the unforgivan could easily top the 6000 BT mark especially when you consider that they keep in regular contact with each other and the grand masters of the DA succesor chapters are all part of the DA inner circle.

 

However SW would top out at 3000 max

 

200+ for ragnars and if the rest of the wolf lords have even 180 each we have 1800 pluss ragnars 200 plus Grimnars unknown = 2000 + Grimnars (max 500) =2500 so 3000

would be a genourous figure.

 

HOWEVER one must not forget the blood claws that have finished training at Rushvik and the other training camps who have not been assigned a great company. There are hundreds of them waiting for a great company to suffer losses so they can replace them.

[Bulweih]

Just to add sth.:

 

In my Ragnar's GC there are 200 battle-hardened warriors=Long Fangs, Wolfguard, Grey Hunters.+changing number of Lone Wolves.

From there on, it's still: Blood-, Swift- and Skyclaws, Vehicle- and Speedercrews, Fenriswolves in the same company....

 

....and then come those assigned to my company by the Great Wolf: Priests, Dreads and Scouts.

Well, let's just say it's bigger than 200.

 

In the next passing days I'll start a thread to oversee my progress for those interested and me of course :lol: .

[Legatus]

Thus the Great Companies are not fixed in the manner of other Space Marine Chapters, but change throughout the ages as one leader succeeds another.

Now why compare the Great Companies to Space Marine Chapters?

That was just a clumsy way of saying "The great companies are not fixed in the manner of how other Chapters have fixed companies".

 

- Ragnar's Great Company is described in the current Codex as being second only to the Company of Logan Grimnar, and consisting of almost two hundred battle hardened warriors. I see no reason to assume that "battle hardened warriors" is not generously refering to every single member of his great company. (They have been through a lot, basically.)

 

- The Space Wolves fleet is often described as consisting of about 15 vessels of Strike Cruiser or Battle Barge equivalent (one source being the Ragnar novels). That would be enough for an oversized Chapter. For 12 Chapter sized Great Companies the Space Wolves would need a fleet of 100 or more (!) of such ships. That would be a massive fleet, worthy to be mentioned at least once at some point. Instead we get the aforementioned ~15.

 

- The 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves specifically explained that the Legion was only divided once because it had never been particularly large. So where the Imperial Fists were divided twice (into the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars) or the Dark Angels were divided three times (into the Dark Angels, the Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption and the Angels of vengeance), the Space Wolves were divided only once (into the Space Wolves and the Wolf Brothers). That seems reasonable enough. If you assumed that the Space Wolves were 12,000+ warriors strong today, they would be even larger than a pre-heresy Legion (which is given as about 10,000 in the Codex Space Wolves). That is pretty much the opposite of what earlier fluff had suggested (well, rather "plainly stated").

 

- A Space Wolves force was traditionally only allowed to have between 5 and 20 Wolf Guard (though the current Codex has unfortunately ignored that), for an average of 13 per Force. If we assume (not entirely unreasonably) that the Space Wolves Chapter consists of 10% Veterans, like other Chapters do, then a typical Great Company with 13 Wolf Guard would have about 130 members in total. Ragnar's Great Company would be one with the maximum of 20 Wolf Guard, for a total of about 200 warriors. 120-130 would be the average per Great Company, but there may be the odd unlucky Wolf Lord whose entourage is less than a hundred.

 

- The old Epic Space Wolf Great Companies started out with 120 warriors (IIRC) and could get 5 additional detachments on top of that. If you added nothing but Grey Hunters you could potentially get to ~350 infantry for this one Great Company (consisting entirely of Grey Hunters...). If you instead used the 5 Detachments to add a few Blood Claws, Long Fangs and then some support vehicles (like Predators or Land Speeders, instead of constructing a completely unsupported infantry Great Company) you would have about ~180 warriors with support vehicles.

[Brissebrajan]

Thus the Great Companies are not fixed in the manner of other Space Marine Chapters, but change throughout the ages as one leader succeeds another.

Now why compare the Great Companies to Space Marine Chapters?

That was just a clumsy way of saying "The great companies are not fixed in the manner of how other Chapters have fixed companies".

 

- Ragnar's Great Company is described in the current Codex as being second only to the Company of Logan Grimnar, and consisting of almost two hundred battle hardened warriors. I see no reason to assume that "battle hardened warriors" is not generously refering to every single member of his great company. (They have been through a lot, basically.)

 

- The Space Wolves fleet is often described as consisting of about 15 vessels of Strike Cruiser or Battle Barge equivalent (one source being the Ragnar novels). That would be enough for an oversized Chapter. For 12 Chapter sized Great Companies the Space Wolves would need a fleet of 100 or more (!) of such ships. That would be a massive fleet, worthy to be mentioned at least once at some point. Instead we get the aforementioned ~15.

 

- The 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves specifically explained that the Legion was only divided once because it had never been particularly large. So where the Imperial Fists were divided twice (into the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars) or the Dark Angels were divided three times (into the Dark Angels, the Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption and the Angels of vengeance), the Space Wolves were divided only once (into the Space Wolves and the Wolf Brothers). That seems reasonable enough. If you assumed that the Space Wolves were 12,000+ warriors strong today, they would be even larger than a pre-heresy Legion (which is given as about 10,000 in the Codex Space Wolves). That is pretty much the opposite of what earlier fluff had suggested (well, rather "plainly stated").

 

- A Space Wolves force was traditionally only allowed to have between 5 and 20 Wolf Guard (though the current Codex has unfortunately ignored that), for an average of 13 per Force. If we assume (not entirely unreasonably) that the Space Wolves Chapter consists of 10% Veterans, like other Chapters do, then a typical Great Company with 13 Wolf Guard would have about 130 members in total. Ragnar's Great Company would be one with the maximum of 20 Wolf Guard, for a total of about 200 warriors. 120-130 would be the average per Great Company, but there may be the odd unlucky Wolf Lord whose entourage is less than a hundred.

 

- The old Epic Space Wolf Great Companies started out with 120 warriors (IIRC) and could get 5 additional detachments on top of that. If you added nothing but Grey Hunters you could potentially get to ~350 infantry for this one Great Company (consisting entirely of Grey Hunters...). If you instead used the 5 Detachments to add a few Blood Claws, Long Fangs and then some support vehicles (like Predators or Land Speeders, instead of constructing a completely unsupported infantry Great Company) you would have about ~180 warriors with support vehicles.

 

i agree with legatus, i have all SW codex, and have read all except 1 SW novell.

[Grimtooth]

People still clinging to the 200 "battle-hardened" as a benchmark as to what constitutes a Great Company.

 

To bring up a point again, taking Beef's generous 3000.

 

If we are to say that the Space Wolves were at 8000 strong pre-heresy, using the quoted smaller Legion reference, subtract the 1000 taken away Wolfbrothers (assuming these were actual bodies, not geneseed), that would leave us 7000. Taking attrition into account, you are saying that the Space Wolves would have voluntary lost 4000 Space Wolves without trying to recruit more Space Wolves. If you try to say that they have been recruiting, you are saying that the Space Wolves have lost in excess of 4000 Space Wolves just to stay at 3000.

 

Now, this attrition number spirals out of control when you try and say that the Space Wolves chapter is even smaller, i.e , in the 1200-1500 range. It would be outrageous to believe that the Space Wolves would agree to a voluntary culling of their brethren or a voluntary recruiting freeze to lower their numbers to only 1200-1500.

 

And it is a valid comparison to show what is present in a Chapter versus what is compared in a Great Company. The codex does just that with the very first excerpt that I pointed out. I am only expanding upon that comparison.

 

Let me give you an idea of how I am looking at this and what I see of our Space Wolves:

 

My old Marine Corps unit was unique. For example, we were only a company but were allotted the ammunition and assets of a regiment for training and deployment. Unlike the standard rifle company in the Marine Corps, our unit did not consist of 3 platoons, we consisted of six. Unlike the standard platoons in the Marine Corps, we had 4 squads of 3 fire teams instead of the 3 squads of 3 fire teams. The fourth squad in every platoon was a dedicated heavy weapons squad, again absent from a standard platoon. Our platoon sergeants were not sergeants, but staff sergeants or gunnery sergeants. Platoon commanders were not lieutenants but captains. Our company was not led by a captain, but by a major.

 

So my old company in comparison to a standard company had more boots on the ground, were better led, and were better equipped. This is what I see of a Space Wolves Great Company due to our original size and no 2nd Founding.

[Valerian]

Ragnar's Great Company has about 200 men in it, and his is the second largest. Only Logan Grimnar's personal Great Company is larger. The whole Chapter most likely has less than 2,000 Marines.

 

Valerian

 

Quote the source correctly so it is not taken out of context Valerian,

The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all.

 

Specifying "battle-hardened warriors" sure leaves out a bunch of units that could not be considered "battle-hardened" and not be part of that two hundred.

 

Brother Ramses, I didn't think that the phrase was relevant, since we all know that every Fenrisian teenage boy is already "battle-hardened" before they are even taken by the Wolf Priests to become Space Wolves initiates. I think that it goes without saying that every single member of a Space Wolves Great Company is battle-hardened.

 

I could be off on this, but once again I think the codex author has been fairly clear in giving us the approximate "order of magnitude" for a SW GC. Ragnar commands about twice as many Marines as a Company Captain from any other Chapter. The rest of the Wolf Lords somewhat less, and Logan Grimnar somewhat more (as he has his own Great Company, as well as the Great Company of the Great Wolf with all of the Priests, etc.). This is my theory anyway.

 

I think that the whole point about describing what each Great Company controls, and the assets that they have at their disposal, is just to demonstrate that each is a fully independent and self-reliant fighting organization. The Codex Companies aren't like that, and really on each other and their higher-level organization (their Chapters resources) in order to fight effectively.

 

Edit:

If we are to say that the Space Wolves were at 8000 strong pre-heresy, using the quoted smaller Legion reference, subtract the 1000 taken away Wolfbrothers (assuming these were actual bodies, not geneseed), that would leave us 7000. Taking attrition into account, you are saying that the Space Wolves would have voluntary lost 4000 Space Wolves without trying to recruit more Space Wolves. If you try to say that they have been recruiting, you are saying that the Space Wolves have lost in excess of 4000 Space Wolves just to stay at 3000.

 

Now, this attrition number spirals out of control when you try and say that the Space Wolves chapter is even smaller, i.e , in the 1200-1500 range. It would be outrageous to believe that the Space Wolves would agree to a voluntary culling of their brethren or a voluntary recruiting freeze to lower their numbers to only 1200-1500.

 

Just a theory here, of course, but it has been 10,000 years since the Wolves were at their (smaller than most) Legion numbers. They cut out over 1,000 to form the Wolfbrothers; I say more than 1,000, because the Wolf Brothers would be organized like the Wolves with Great Companies as their shared Primarch, our great Russ intended. After that, who knows what has happened in the last 10,000 years. Perhaps there just aren't as many recruits that make it through the initiation rites as there used to be (we all know that making it through the trials to become a SW is a lot harder than for other Chapters). Perhaps the population of Fenris itself is on the decline, and there are simply less warriors available to pick from. Perhaps the population of Fenris has experienced the natural slow mutation of genetic material that happens to result in less men that are genetically compatible with our geneseed. Perhaps it is simply the fact that the Imperium is in constant warfare, with new threats (Tyranids and the Necrontyr) that weren't around a few thousand years ago; they just can't keep up with losses.

 

These are all just examples of explanations, none with any specific support, but all provide a possible answer to satisfy the attrition question.

 

Best regards,

 

V

[Legatus]

People still clinging to the 200 "battle-hardened" as a benchmark as to what constitutes a Great Company.

I did try to refer to a few other indicators of the Space Wolves' Chapter or Great Company sizes...

 

 

If we are to say that the Space Wolves were at 8000 strong pre-heresy

But why would we asume that? We know that the Imperial Fists had about 3,000 warriors at the time of the second founding, based on into how many Chapters they were divided (they probably had a bit less, as the Imperial Fists Chapter then took 20 years to reorganise and possibly rebuild). We know the Dark Angels had about 4,000 warriors at the the time of the Second Founding, for the same reasons. Why don't we apply the same logic to the Space Wolves? During the heresy they were attacking another Legion's home world, and after the heresy the Space Wolves were very agressive in chasing the traitor Legions, even pursuing them into the Eye of Terror. The 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves stated that they were only divided once because they did not have more warriros than that. The 3rd Edition Index Astartes about the Codex Astartes states that most Legions were divided into a hand full of Chapters, while the Space Wolves specifically were divided into only two. So why should we assume that the Space Wolves had more than ~2,500 warriors left at the time of the Second Founding, being divided into a more standard sized Wolf Brothers Chapter and a slightly oversized Space Wolves Chapter?

[Jonas Stromclaw]

I personally lean more toward Brother Ramses side of this argument, but the source of any contention is simply contradictory fluff.

 

1) Depending on which codex/book you read PreHeresy legions numbered 10,000 to 100,000.

2) Space Wolves numbered less than this but not sufficiently so that they couldn't kick the Thousand Sons off their own homeworld.

3) While losing the 13th at Prospero and sustaining significant casualties both there and on the way to Terra, the Wolves did not participate in any of the notable meat grinders like Isstvan or the Siege of Terra.

4) Legions who did participate in such meat grinders ended up with sufficient numbers (even after hounding the renegades into the Eye, Legatus...) to create between two (IF) and three (RG) successor chapters.

5) AFTER the heresy these forces not only maintained thier strength but increased it to the point that they created new chapters.

 

Space wolves created one successor from the remnants of a legion that was not known for the number of casualties it recieved and never created anymore.

 

So.... Where did all the Wolves go?

[Wysten]

The wolves were killed during the hersy, hence why there were less people to spilt off. After the war the Wolves would have not been at legion strength anyways, none of the major players were at legion strength, so come the introduction of the codex, the legion had been reduced in strength such that it was simply spilt into two, 1000 bodies for the wolf brothers as an experiment and let the space wolves keep the rest until they could determine the success rate of a successor chapter.

 

Safe to say, the fluff is patchy in areas, so I would simply assume that was another fluff mistake to instead show how unstable a Space Wolfs gene seed is. They were concentrating on that rather then thinking about where the remaining marines went, or they simply let them keep them because of being pretty close to the eye of terror until they had fallen to more acceptable levels.

[Skirax]

Thus the Great Companies are not fixed in the manner of other Space Marine Chapters, but change throughout the ages as one leader succeeds another.

Now why compare the Great Companies to Space Marine Chapters?

That was just a clumsy way of saying "The great companies are not fixed in the manner of how other Chapters have fixed companies".

 

- Ragnar's Great Company is described in the current Codex as being second only to the Company of Logan Grimnar, and consisting of almost two hundred battle hardened warriors. I see no reason to assume that "battle hardened warriors" is not generously refering to every single member of his great company. (They have been through a lot, basically.)

I believe this may be starting to come out of context; we're all saying that, in the line, 'Ragnar's GC is second to the Great Wolf's' it refers to numbers. But what if it's not for that; what if it's in terms of combat prowess. This could obliterate the idea of Ragnar's GC being second largest, and the others (apart from Logan's) being smaller, which could vastly increase our numbers to say, 2500 without Legion Chapter (:cuss) assets.

 

However, I may just be losing the plot XP