Great Company size

[hendrik]

it amazes me no-one has quoted this yet;

"perhaps Leman Russ had no intention of breaking apart his mighty legion so that they could be divided and conquered if necessary. What is known ,however, is that the space wolves had and still have little regard for the dictates and military organisation of the Codex astartes, instead holding sacred the teachings of Russ that are handed down from Wolf Priest to blood claw whelp even to this day" current SW codex, p9

 

I believe the imperial fists too first refused to split their mighty legion but in the end they gave in. the space wolves however seem less likely to give in imo; why? A) we came out of the heresy at a notable fighting strenght

but even more important :) we have the fang,only second to holy terra and everybody knew what power it took to besiege that

 

I believe the answer on how we got split can be best asked in the horus heresy part forum and that we go on from there on

[hendrik]

edit:double post

[Legatus]

I assume no one has quoted that because the current Codedx merely gives us an ominous "no one knows what happened, perhaps this was the reason for only one successor? Or maybe this was?", while previous sources were quite clear on what the reason was. I do think I quoted that bit in the last thread we had about this issue, but that was quite some time ago.

 

 

I believe the imperial fists too first refused to split their mighty legion but in the end they gave in. the space wolves however seem less likely to give in

If the Imperial Fists background tells us anything, then it is that resistance against the breaking up of the Legion was aparently not tolerated. If Dorn was not to be allowed to have his way, why would Leman Russ? And while the Black Templars Index Astartes mentions that Leman Russ supported Dorn in his resistance, the Space Wolves sources somehow never really seem to mention anything like that. I can think of five sources that explain how the Legions were divided into Chapters at the end of the Heresy (two of them are Space Wolves Codices), and none of these sources mentions that the Space Wolves were an exception, that they weren't divided like the others and are still a Legion. And there were only nine Legions, so one of them not breaking up would have been quite crucial to point out. Two of the sources even specifically state that the Space Wolves were broken up like the others, and that they just did not have enough left to make more than two Chapters.

 

 

why? A) we came out of the heresy at a notable fighting strenght

If the 2nd Edition background is anything to go by, that was not really the case.

[hendrik]

sadly enough i don't have a copy of the second edition dex so i'll take your word about our fighting strength.

but as for the splitting of our legion, Russ had the military power to resist the high lord of terra, because he had the fang. him not spliting his legion however was no option as this could escalade into a secondcivilian war so he did split the legion once, into the ill fated wolf brothers, to please the high lords of terra.in my vision would follow the codex astartes in numbers as all second foundings did(?reference they all did?). leaving russ with the space wolf legion-1000 marines. but that's just my opinion.

this however posses some new questions;

1) did the wolf brothers follow the codex astartes when founded?

2) what was the fighting strenght of the space wolves legion right after the heresy/when Russ left?

[Legatus]

1) did the wolf brothers follow the codex astartes when founded?

My guess would be that they were as fond of their original traditions as the Space Wolves Chapter, so were probably not adhering to the tactical and organisational doctrines either.

 

 

2) what was the fighting strenght of the space wolves legion right after the heresy/when Russ left?

Probably not too many more than 2,000.

 

 

sadly enough i don't have a copy of the second edition dex so i'll take your word about our fighting strength.

I had quoted the two relevant sources earlier in this thread, but here they are without my connotations.

 

From 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 9:

Never again could the Imperium tolerate the possibility of Space marine armies falling under the influence of an enemy. The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller Chapters and a code was drawn up to redefine their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This code was called the Codex Astartes and it established the basis on which Space Marines would operate in the future. Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order each Chapter's size was determined at about a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller Chapter and continued to keep its old name, but the remaining Space Marine warriors were reorganised into new Chapters.

 

The new Chapters became known as the Second Founding. These Second Founding Chapters all descend from one of the original Legions, and so claim a genetic brotherhood with the original Space Marines and the Primarchs. For example, the Ultramarine Legion gave rise to not only the Ultramarine Chapter, but also the Eagle Warriors Chapter amongst others. The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the genetic seed of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen, and therefor decided against dividing and further spreading the Space Wolves' genetic base.

 

 

From 3rd Edition Index Astartes - Codex Astartes (Index Astartes I), page 12/13:

The Second Founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus. The existing Space Marine Legions were broken up and refounded as smaller, more flexible formations. Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called the Chapter, and in future the Chapter was recognised as the standard autonomous Space Marine formation. No longer would one man have the power over a force as powerful as a Space Marine Legion.

 

The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times.

[hendrik]

i see your reasoning if we come out of the heresy with only about 2000. i guess it's because i tend to prefer the new horus heresy novels(where legions seem to number more then 10000) that i find 20000 a way to small number.

about the 2nd edition dex; i just ment it's sad i don't have the oportunity to read all of its fluff, there was no need to re-quote your sources, but still, here's an ale for the efford! ;)

[Wysten]

It simply does not matter how big the legion was. It's between 1.5k/2.5k battle hardened marines now, due to a combintion of legion spiltting, the gene seed killing the a good deal of applicants and the fact they are recuiting off a Death Planet while safe guarding over 100 planets within their territory near the eye of terror. The legion in compersion probably had a great deal more applicants then the space wolves currently have at present which explains why the legion is much greater and explains why our numbers are low, aside from the decree that all space marines have to follow. The Templar only get away with it because they never unite as a chapter.

 

Personally. I think the question has already been answered, the codex has stated the maxium number of combat hardened space wolves for a company, other then the great company to have during that era, though the size wildly flexes. I believe that that answer will not really change if we ask the same question repeatively. Just that most great companys in this era at least are under 200 battle hardened warriors, excluding Logan company which is unspesified.

[Captain Idaho]

This may be miles off topic, but this:

 

we have the fang,only second to holy terra and everybody knew what power it took to besiege that

 

confused me a little bit!

 

Whilst I consider the Fang to be immensely defensible, being the only structure/target for any would be invader to consider and defended by the Space Wolves themselves (a Chapter of nutcases by anyone's standards), whilst the world away from the Fang is just untenable giving the invaders nowhere else to go, is it really the case that the Fang is the penultimate defensive bastion, outside of Terra?

 

A number of other places seem a little more likely candidates for being greater fortresses, or at least the equals of the Fang.

 

Is that claim sourced, as I would be interested to read about it?

[Legatus]

The Fang is indeed reckoned the greatest fortress outside of Terra, and is described in some detail on page 13 of the 5th Edition Space Wolves Codex.

[Uguai Stormseer]

From what I've read in Codex: Space Marines. Roboute Guilliman's Sepulchre is a "small" temple within the Ultramarines Vast Norther Fortress. Though, there's enough marble within the small temple to build a mountain, and enough Plasteel and Adamantine to build a sizable War Fleet. Wrap your head around that!

[Valerian]

is it really the case that the Fang is the penultimate defensive bastion, outside of Terra?

 

A number of other places seem a little more likely candidates for being greater fortresses, or at least the equals of the Fang.

 

Is that claim sourced, as I would be interested to read about it?

 

From multiple sources, including WD 156 & 246:

 

"The foothills of this huge artificial mountain cover hundreds of miles, and the Fang itself rises up twenty five miles, a dagger driven into the belly of the sky, towering out of the planet's atmosphere. It is one of the mightiest citadels in the Imperium outside the fortified world of Earth.

 

The citadel is clad in resistant armour and cloaked with void screens more powerful than any starship's. Great weapon bays point defence lasers at the distant stars. A huge geo-thermal spike runs down the core of the mountain and provides power for the Chapter's weapons and factories. The mountain is crowned with a spaceport large enough for entire space fleets to be re-fitted. Thousands of miles of corridor wind down into the mountain's dark heart where Iron Priests and their servitors craft weapons forged in fire from the planet's molten heart."

 

V

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, The Fang is noted having hundreds of warships docket at it, for use as rapid strike craft. It is a rare Sector Fleet than can boast such a thing- such as say Cadia.

 

And of course, theres Bjorn holding off a large chunk of the Thousand Sons legion with less then 100 SMs for several years.... an impressive feat that most chapters could not have achieved. Im sure it was partially due to his massive tactical skills, but in no small part due to the truely formidable fortress in wich he fought.

[Dyre]

I would probably have included at leat one small unit of Wolf Scouts, for a well rounded force with a bit of everything. And I would have tried to keep the squads under 200 men in total, just to keep with the remark in the current Codex. Perhaps easier on the Long Fangs, as Ragnar prefers all out assaults.

 

Personally, I would have probably gone something like this:

 

20 Wolf Guard

20 Long Fangs

10 Wolf Scouts

100/40 GH/BC (or maybe 90/50)

 

For a "balanced" Great Company of that size I would probably go with more Long Fangs, but I think Ragnar is probably concentrating more on Assault.

 

That would be my take, anyway. Yours works too. Except for the size, and perhaps some Scouts.

 

 

One of the major disagreements left in this thread is the meaning of 200 battle hardened warriors. Some believing this includes blood claws others that it does not. I believe the grammar used in that paragraph is important and how this is related to the grammar in both the GH and BC dex entry that the 200 does not include blood claws.

 

I don't see any need to cap Ragnar's WG at 20 as that was a game mechanic which is no longer in our dex. If one of Ragnar's GC's main focuses is on Drop pod assaults I would think his WG is a sizable number to help lead the way in TDA.

[Valerian]

One of the major disagreements left in this thread is the meaning of 200 battle hardened warriors. Some believing this includes blood claws others that it does not. I believe the grammar used in that paragraph is important and how this is related to the grammar in both the GH and BC dex entry that the 200 does not include blood claws.

 

Here is my position on this issue; you can take it for what it is worth:

 

Phil Kelly finally answered one of the big questions and gave a fairly precise answer as to how many Marines are in a Space Wolves Great Company; Ragnar's is the second largest and he has just under 200. He isn't trying to hide an Easter Egg, and he isn't trying to add more mystery (or misery), by making us try to guess who should count as "battle-hardened" or not. I'm guessing he would be laughing out of his chair if he had seen this thread and all of the debate about the significance of that two-word descriptor.

 

Ragnar Blackmane leads a frakking Space Wolves Great Company, they are bad-ass killing machines, and any one of them will rip your face off. They are the Emperor of Mankind's "Angels of Death". The author is trying to capture some of that essence by describing them as battle-hardened warriors. He could have said "blood-thirsty", or any number of other image-evoking descriptors, but he picked a fitting one that sounds good, and gives the reader the correct "impression" about the Company. I don't see why some folks have to then go and get silly about it.

 

Let's make it easy on ourselves; take it at face value and move along.

 

V

[Dyre]

One of the major disagreements left in this thread is the meaning of 200 battle hardened warriors. Some believing this includes blood claws others that it does not. I believe the grammar used in that paragraph is important and how this is related to the grammar in both the GH and BC dex entry that the 200 does not include blood claws.

 

Here is my position on this issue; you can take it for what it is worth:

 

Phil Kelly finally answered one of the big questions and gave a fairly precise answer as to how many Marines are in a Space Wolves Great Company; Ragnar's is the second largest and he has just under 200. He isn't trying to hide an Easter Egg, and he isn't trying to add more mystery (or misery), by making us try to guess who should count as "battle-hardened" or not. I'm guessing he would be laughing out of his chair if he had seen this thread and all of the debate about the significance of that two-word descriptor.

 

Ragnar Blackmane leads a frakking Space Wolves Great Company, they are bad-ass killing machines, and any one of them will rip your face off. They are the Emperor of Mankind's "Angels of Death". The author is trying to capture some of that essence by describing them as battle-hardened warriors. He could have said "blood-thirsty", or any number of other image-evoking descriptors, but he picked a fitting one that sounds good, and gives the reader the correct "impression" about the Company. I don't see why some folks have to then go and get silly about it.

 

Let's make it easy on ourselves; take it at face value and move along.

 

V

 

 

Wording and Grammar are important. Read any of the codex entries for Blood Claws and tell me if you think the impression you take away is of battle hardened vets. Fierce and Foolhardey yes, but you cannont depend on them tactically to do as they are told.

[Marshal Rohr]

Lets do a little math:

 

 

Lets be generous:

Grimnar: 250

Ragnar:199

10x Everyone Else: 198

 

Comes to: 2429

 

 

So this means even using ridiculous, BS inflated numbers, you still dont come ANYWHERE near Legion size. End of Discussion. If you think there are more than 2500 Space Wolves you are FLAT WRONG, and just being uselessly obstinate. If you disagree: TOUGH. You're still WRONG.

[Valerian]

Wording and Grammar are important. Read any of the codex entries for Blood Claws and tell me if you think the impression you take away is of battle hardened vets. Fierce and Foolhardey yes, but you cannont depend on them tactically to do as they are told.

 

You just changed the wording to battle-harding vets (veterans). They might not quite be considered veterans, but even the Blood Claws are battle-hardened warriors. They were battle-hardened before they even joined the Space Wolves back when they were young Fenrisian lads in Wolfbrothers bands who fought at the forefront of battle; keen to win honour and the respect of their elders.

 

Yes, often wording and grammer are important - it is often the use of such language that allow us to discern subtle differences in meaning. However, at the same time, we have to try to determine when the language isn't meant to have any special significance. This is the case here, in the description of Ragnar's Great Company (in my own opinion, of course). I have already attempted to relay why I think it is ridiculous to think that the author is actually trying to discriminate and give a number for only one subsection of the Great Company (ie., the more experienced members), while failing to include the newer, younger members of the Company. That would be, well, an incredibly stupid thing to do. Kelly, or whoever actually wrote that section, could have simply stated "nearly 200 warriors" - but that wouldn't have had as much impact as "nearly 200 battle-hardened warriors", now would it?

 

V

[Dyre]

Lets do a little math:

 

 

Lets be generous:

Grimnar: 250

Ragnar:199

10x Everyone Else: 198

 

Comes to: 2429

 

 

So this means even using ridiculous, BS inflated numbers, you still dont come ANYWHERE near Legion size. End of Discussion. If you think there are more than 2500 Space Wolves you are FLAT WRONG, and just being uselessly obstinate. If you disagree: TOUGH. You're still WRONG.

 

I'm am not and have never said the space wolves are legion size where you are getting that from I have no idea. The only part of this arguement I interjected my opinion was on the description of Ragnar's Company.

[Dyre]

You just changed the wording to battle-harding vets (veterans). They might not quite be considered veterans, but even the Blood Claws are battle-hardened warriors. They were battle-hardened before they even joined the Space Wolves back when they were young Fenrisian lads in Wolfbrothers bands who fought at the forefront of battle; keen to win honour and the respect of their elders.

 

Find for me in the Fluff where Bloodclaws are described as Battle-hardened and I will not have a leg to stand on.

 

Yes, often wording and grammer are important - it is often the use of such language that allow us to discern subtle differences in meaning. However, at the same time, we have to try to determine when the language isn't meant to have any special significance. This is the case here, in the description of Ragnar's Great Company (in my own opinion, of course). I have already attempted to relay why I think it is ridiculous to think that the author is actually trying to discriminate and give a number for only one subsection of the Great Company (ie., the more experienced members), while failing to include the newer, younger members of the Company. That would be, well, an incredibly stupid thing to do. Kelly, or whoever actually wrote that section, could have simply stated "nearly 200 warriors" - but that wouldn't have had as much impact as "nearly 200 battle-hardened warriors", now would it?

V

 

Your right, I would not be in this discussion with you now if that where the case. B)

[Marshal Rohr]

Lets do a little math:

 

 

Lets be generous:

Grimnar: 250

Ragnar:199

10x Everyone Else: 198

 

Comes to: 2429

 

 

So this means even using ridiculous, BS inflated numbers, you still dont come ANYWHERE near Legion size. End of Discussion. If you think there are more than 2500 Space Wolves you are FLAT WRONG, and just being uselessly obstinate. If you disagree: TOUGH. You're still WRONG.

 

I'm am not and have never said the space wolves are legion size where you are getting that from I have no idea. The only part of this arguement I interjected my opinion was on the description of Ragnar's Company.

 

 

This song aint about you....

[Grimtooth]

Here is something to ponder.

 

Since the nature of the Space Wolves' history is told through sagas passed down through the ages it is highly possible that we have a melding of stories combined with regard to the Wolf Brothers.

 

We have fluff stating that the Wolf Brothers suffered from genetic instability.

 

We have fluff stating the Wolf Brothers chased some Eldar into the webways.

 

We have fluff that refers to the 13th Co as the Wolf Brothers.

 

We have fluff that the 13th Co were greatly affected by the Canis Helix.

 

We have fluff that the 13th Co are fighting in/from the warp.

 

Both are shrouded in half told mysterious that seem intertwined beyond just coincedence.

 

My theory is that Russ must have been under pressure from his brothers to divide his Legions. He has the 13th Co that would be questionable by the Adepts of Terra due to the high number of Wulfen/Curse of Wulfen. He sends them after the 1K Sons and attributes them to the splitting of the Legion thus getting Guillman off his back.

[Grimtooth]

Here is something to ponder.

 

Since the nature of the Space Wolves' history is told through sagas passed down through the ages it is highly possible that we have a melding of stories combined with regard to the Wolf Brothers.

 

We have fluff stating that the Wolf Brothers suffered from genetic instability.

 

We have fluff stating the Wolf Brothers chased some Eldar into the webways.

 

We have fluff that refers to the 13th Co as the Wolf Brothers.

 

We have fluff that the 13th Co were greatly affected by the Canis Helix.

 

We have fluff that the 13th Co are fighting in/from the warp.

 

Both are shrouded in half told mysterious that seem intertwined beyond just coincedence.

 

My theory is that Russ must have been under pressure from his brothers to divide his Legions. He has the 13th Co that would be questionable by the Adepts of Terra due to the high number of Wulfen/Curse of Wulfen. He sends them after the 1K Sons and attributes them to the splitting of the Legion thus getting Guillman off his back.

[Grey Mage]

Well that one should be confirmed when our side of the battle for prospero comes out.

[Legatus]

Only when the splitting of the Legions was demanded the 13th Company had already been gone for about a decade...

[Valerian]

Here is something to ponder.

 

Since the nature of the Space Wolves' history is told through sagas passed down through the ages it is highly possible that we have a melding of stories combined with regard to the Wolf Brothers.

 

We have fluff stating that the Wolf Brothers suffered from genetic instability.

 

We have fluff stating the Wolf Brothers chased some Eldar into the webways.

 

The fluff about the Wolf Brothers disappearing into the Webway was in WD 244, which I have. Going off of what you told me earlier, the fluff about them suffering from genetic instability is in WD 283 (which interestingly enough is a 13th Company article, not a Wolf Brothers article). Other than those two sources, I've never seen it stated anywhere else what happened to the Wolf Brothers, and why they are no longer an active Chapter. I need to get a copy of WD 283 so I can read the whole article myself, and maybe get a better understanding of the context.

 

We have fluff that refers to the 13th Co as the Wolf Brothers.

 

Where is this? Is this also in WD 283, or is it only from Black Library stuff?

 

We have fluff that the 13th Co were greatly affected by the Canis Helix.

 

We have fluff that the 13th Co are fighting in/from the warp.

 

Yes, there are tons of sources that say that both of these are true. More specifically, much of the earlier stuff says that the 13th Great Company was actually cursed because the Wolf Lord chose the totem of the Wulfen for his Company, and his hubris cost them dearly.

 

My theory is that Russ must have been under pressure from his brothers to divide his Legions. He has the 13th Co that would be questionable by the Adepts of Terra due to the high number of Wulfen/Curse of Wulfen. He sends them after the 1K Sons and attributes them to the splitting of the Legion thus getting Guillman off his back.

 

As Legatus pointed out, it would be a good theory if it weren't for the fact that the 13th Great Company was lost during the Horus Heresy, and the Second Founding (the splitting up of the Legions into smaller Chapters) ocurred 7 years after the Heresy was over.

 

V