Great Company size

[Jonas Stromclaw]

The wolves were killed during the hersy,

See points three and four of my previous post. Even more Raven Guard were killed and yet they formed three successors. My personal conclusion is that either GW pusposefully left our codex vague in this matter, leaving room for the possibility of Great companies numbering anywhere from 200 to 500 OR (More likely) the fluff is just messed up.

[Wysten]

The wolves were killed during the hersy,

See points three and four of my previous post. Even more Raven Guard were killed and yet they formed three successors. My personal conclusion is that either GW pusposefully left our codex vague in this matter, leaving room for the possibility of Great companies numbering anywhere from 200 to 500 OR (More likely) the fluff is just messed up.

 

 

My throughts exactly. Though considering the vaugeness which is the numbers, it's hardly suprising. I don't really think much on the heresy, it's just made to sell figures and make it sound impressive and make a vauge past to set the scene for the rest of the play.

[Grimtooth]

The wolves were killed during the hersy, hence why there were less people to spilt off. After the war the Wolves would have not been at legion strength anyways, none of the major players were at legion strength, so come the introduction of the codex, the legion had been reduced in strength such that it was simply spilt into two, 1000 bodies for the wolf brothers as an experiment and let the space wolves keep the rest until they could determine the success rate of a successor chapter.

 

Safe to say, the fluff is patchy in areas, so I would simply assume that was another fluff mistake to instead show how unstable a Space Wolfs gene seed is. They were concentrating on that rather then thinking about where the remaining marines went, or they simply let them keep them because of being pretty close to the eye of terror until they had fallen to more acceptable levels.

 

Where are you getting this rubbish? You act as if there was a huge massacre of SW yet none is documented in the fluff at all. We do know that the Space Wolves were not part of any "meat grinder" events as noted previously.

 

And the fluff of the Wolfbrothers does not lend itself to 1000 Space Wolves being split off from the existing Legion.

 

It seems to suggest a large portion of the doomed 2nd Founding came from genestock with probably only command structure consisting of Space Wolves drawn from Great Companies.

 

Otherwise it would be suggested that the mere redesignation from Space Wolves to Wolfbrothers caused the mass mutation which is ridiculous.

 

So I would say that at the most, maybe a quarter of the new Wolfbrothers were existing Space Wolves drawn from existing Great Companies. These brethren would also have just been sent back to their previous Great Companies.

[Valerian]

And the fluff of the Wolfbrothers does not lend itself to 1000 Space Wolves being split off from the existing Legion.

 

It seems to suggest a large portion of the doomed 2nd Founding came from genestock with probably only command structure consisting of Space Wolves drawn from Great Companies.

 

Otherwise it would be suggested that the mere redesignation from Space Wolves to Wolfbrothers caused the mass mutation which is ridiculous.

 

Brother Ramses, you have opened a new can of worms here, but I feel that I should respond.

 

The genestock of the Wolfbrothers is/was exactly the same as the rest of our Space Wolves, as that is what they were; they were no more, and no less, prone to mutation or genetic instability than the rest of their brother-Wolves. All Sons of Russ share the the same genetic problem, which is why we suffer from the Curse of the Wulfen. There was no "mass mutation" as you call it; the Wolfbrothers served the Allfather and humanity with honour for over 6,000 years before the entire Chapter was lost chasing a fleeing Eldar force into the Webway; they were never seen or heard from again. This is why they are known as the "ill-fated Wolfbrothers"; the "ill-fated" description has absolutely nothing to do with genetic problems, mass mutation, or everybody turning into Wulfen. They were "ill-fated' in a way similar to how the Fire Hawks Chapter was (all lost in the Warp), or the Death Guard were (all caught that plague and subsequently turned to Nurgle for relief).

 

We don't know how it was done exactly, but we know that Russ preferred his own fluid, flexible, and dynamic Great Company organizational structure. When other Primarchs split off the 1,000+ Marines from their Legions to form 10 Companies of 100 Marines to make a new 2nd Founding Chapter as a successor, good old Leman Russ most likely did more or less the same thing and split off enough Space Wolves to create a viable 1,000+ Marine force of Wolfbrothers for their new Chapter. There is no reason not to assume that Russ didn't just take a bunch of Great Companies and say, "you aren't going to like this, but you guys are all "Wolfbrothers" now." They'd just have been formed in the same self-sufficient, completely autonomous, Great Companies instead of the too weak to fight on their own Codex Comany design.

 

Genetic instability, not even mentioned in the same sentence as the Wolfbrothers in the codex, was just one of several possible reasons for why the Space Wolves were not split more than the one time. The other potential reason is simply that Russ didn't want to have his Legion divided any further than the one time and refused to let it happen more than once.

 

Okay, back to the original topic. Firstly, I want to say that I respect you and your opinions. You have a theory that the Great Companies, and therefore the whole Space Wolves Chapter is, well, very large (for lack of a better way to say it). As evidence to support this position, you are using a lot of "indirect evidence" from the background material, and a lot of what is, frankly, conjecture. It is my theory that they Great Companies are not nearly so large as you suppose, but usually no more than twice the size of a standard, Codex Company of about 100 Marines. I feel that the the evidence that supports my position is much more "direct", and that the quote that Ragnar's Great Company, being second only to Logan Grimnars, consisting of about 200 battle hardened warriors gives us a very clear idea of the scope and scale of a GC. You have tried to dissect the phrase "battle hardened warriors" to question what it means, but as someone else has already stated - it is my opinion that you are now clutching at straws here.

 

I really hope that I didn't come off as an ass again. If I did, then I apologize in advance, and will stay out of it.

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Legatus]

3) While losing the 13th at Prospero and sustaining significant casualties both there and on the way to Terra, the Wolves did not participate in any of the notable meat grinders like Isstvan or the Siege of Terra.

4) Legions who did participate in such meat grinders ended up with sufficient numbers (even after hounding the renegades into the Eye, Legatus...) to create between two (IF) and three (RG) successor chapters.

5) AFTER the heresy these forces not only maintained thier strength but increased it to the point that they created new chapters.

In older fluff, the Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard were all effectively wiped out at Istvaan V, safe for a hand full of survivors. More recent fluff explains that not the entire Iron Hands Chapter had been present. Since the Raven Guard and the Iron Hands were indeed able to create successor Chapters a few years later, I can only asume that they used the time of the scouring more for rebuilding than for chasing traitors.

 

While the Space Wolves did not participate in the battle for Istvaan V or the Battle for Terra, the current Codex does claim that they were involved in the struggle right from the beginning and participated in some of the most important battles (I don't have my Codex at hand, so unfortunately cannot cite a page). The Space Wolves, cunning as they may sometimes be described as, are also often a bit reckless, and specifically following the traitor Legions into the Eye of Terror was probably not without a great deal of risk. I am not sure any other Legion did that. But why should GW tell us how big the Space Wolves were at the time of the Second Founding? They haven't told us that for any of the other Legions. We go by into how many Chapters they had been divided into. But for some reason a statement that "the Space Wolves were divided into two Chapters" has no meaning for a lot of Space Wolves players.

[Grimtooth]

Valerian, where are you getting your Wolfbrothers information from?

(2nd Ed. Codex: Space Wolves @ p9)

The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolf Brothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the genetic seed of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of Wulfen, and therefore decided against dividing and further spreading the Space Wolves' genetic base.

 

The above does leave out the the mentioning of maybe it was Russ himself that decided to not divide his chapter.

 

Index Astartes: Space Wolves 13th Company in UK WD 283)

Little information as to the true identity of this group survives, though what scraps of data have been recovered suggest that the Wolf Brothers were in fact a successor Chapter of the Space Wolves that was disbanded due to some form of genetic instability.

 

And man dude, post up the entire fluff, not just what supports your argument. You post up that the Wolf Brothers were lost pursuing Eldar through a webway but then leave out the next sentence that pertains to their genetic instability thus making both our points valid possibilites:

 

A further legend speaks of the disappearance of a Space Wolves force through an Eldar webway portal, though in this particular case the story relates to the so-called 'Wolf Brothers'. Little information as to the true identity of this group survives, though what scraps of data have been recovered suggest that the Wolf Brothers were in fact a successor Chapter of the Space Wolves that was disbanded due to some form of genetic instability. A passage in The Calleria cites the Wolf Brothers as pursuing an Eldar force through a mystical portal, from which they never returned. The similarity between this and other legends suggests that a kernel of truth lies at the heart of the matter, though the exact details will likely never be known.

 

As far as how the Wolfbrothers was formed, I mentioned that it was a combination of both, both existing Space Wolves and genestock. From Codex Space Marines, pg 8 regarding geneseed after the heresy,

 

Each of the Second Founding Chapters was derived directly from an original First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same gene-seed. Subsequently the new Chapter's gene-seed was isolated forming a new genetic line.

 

The above emboldened sentence is where I believe is the point when the Wolfbrothers genetic instability manifested itself thus resulting in being disbanded.

[Quillen]

Actually the Wolves did fight on terra cleaning up. Which is the whole point.

 

The Legion attacks properro, then stopped and killed off another section of traitors, then headed on to Earth. And they did indeed help clear Earth and then helped Drive the traitors off toward the Eye of terror.

 

And they were taking loses the whole way. People die. No one lives for ever and even more die in thick combat. My grandpa had his Division whittled down 2 times to Regiment size and stuck in another division. Think about it.

 

 

 

What do we know for a fact? Ragnars company has over 200 battle hardened troops. And is the second largest. Which means just that. Not counting the Blood Claw noobies. There is just over 200 guys in his company. That is it. You can not get a freaking chapter out of 200.

 

The other companies are smaller still. And only Logan's is larger.

 

So maybe you have, if lucky, 3k Space Wolves in still loyal Companies. That is it. That is fact. That is all it can be.

 

 

As to fleets, yeah they do not use fleet formations like vanilla chapters. They never have or will. They also board and take ships. You saing the those oranges are organized like this, when you need to realize we are talking about apples. Not Oranges.

 

 

So please do not states facts which are not. Facts are facts. We may not like them, but they are what they are. We are the largest chapter, but no where near a legion in size now.

[Legatus]

What do we know for a fact? Ragnars company has over 200 battle hardened troops. And is the second largest.

To be fair, they are not specifically described as being the "second largest" Great Company. They are the second most successful. It may be reasonable to assume that they are therefor also one of the larger ones, but it is not what is stated. (And IIRC it says "almost two hundred", not "over two hundred".)

 

 

Which means just that. Not counting the Blood Claw noobies.

How long do you think it takes for a Blood Claw to be accepted as a Grey Hunter? Surviving a week of combat? Or would you say a year or so? Maybe even a couple of years? And wouldn't you say that after a year of constant combat (or even just after a few such months), someone could be refered to as "battle hardened", even if he was not promoted to a higher rank yet? Of course, compared to a wise Grey Hunter they will still be rookies. But after a few years of combat they will start getting a bit of experience.

 

 

We are the largest chapter, but no where near a legion in size now.

There is a popular Chapter that is assumed to have between 4,000 and 6,000 warriors...

[Valerian]

Valerian, where are you getting your Wolfbrothers information from?

 

 

It was in US White Dwarf #245 (June 2000), which happened to be the 25th Anniversary Issue for Games Workshop (1975-2000). That White Dwarf was actually the second of two issues that were focused on the release of the 3rd Edition Space Wolves codex.

 

US White Dwarf #244 (May 2000), which has the 3rd Edition Codex cover picture on the front, and the title is "Unleashed! Codex Space Wolves Arrives!". It's contents include a 6 page discussion of the new codex, written by Jervis, a 2 page examination of the trusty old Space Wolves plastic sprue, and a 2 page story detailing The Battle of the Fang, when Cardinal Bucharis invaded Fenris.

 

US White Dwarf #245 (June 2000) cover art features the "new" Land Raider kit, which modernized that old vehicle to it's current design. This is the issue that includes the "Lone Wolves" article with subsections on the Wolfbrothers, The Sons of Russ, The Wulfen, and Jotun Bearclaw's Great Company. Other SW articles in WD245 are A Company of Wolves - Anthony Warrington's Golden Demon-winning Space Wolves army, Young Bloods - Blood Claws, Ancient Heroes - rules for using Venerable Dreadnoughts with a SW army, plus "Escape from Granica" a Battle Report with Andy Chambers Wolves v Jervis Johnsons Orks (which was a rematch of the 1st ever Space Wolves Bat Rep from back in 1993).

 

 

From White Dwarf #245:

 

The Wolf Brothers

(excerpted from the calleria M37)

 

...And ranging 'cross Yahals plain

The Eldar turned at bay.

They stood and fought, shed blood

And burned

A thousand men that day.

 

Then Wolf Brothers came

To slay them all,

Bloody swords raised, howling,

fangs gleaming

Answering the warriors' call.

 

No alien could stand against

So fierce a foe,

No trick would turn them aside.

On they came, unstoppable

To strike a deadly blow.

 

Turning, fleeing the Eldar ran

Through their portal

Beyond the reach of man.

Undaunted Wolf Brothers

Pursued them unto realms immortal

 

Though aliens were defeated,

Their fury tamed,

The ill-fated Wolf Brothers

Were lost, mourned

Never seen again...

 

From the context of that whole section of the White Dwarf it is pretty clear (to me at least) that this is describing the loss of the Wolf Brothers (aka Wolfbrothers) Chapter.

 

The Space Wolves were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter [hopefully we agree that disappearing into an Eldar webway, as evidenced above, would qualify as "ill-fated". Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ [note that it specifies the legacy of Leman Russ, meaning all of his progeny, not just the Wolfbrothers], giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen. Perhaps Leman Russ had no intention of breaking apart his mightly Legion so that they could be divided and conquered if necessary.[This is the part where two different possible expanations for not dividing the Legion any further than once are given]

- from the current codex (5th Edition), page 9, last paragraph.

 

But, in the end, this is a separate fluff issue/discussion that was already covered not too long ago. As to the current size of the Great Companies, what did or did not happen to the Wolfbrothers is probably not all that relevant. What is relevant is the part where it roughly specifies (minus perhaps a few dozen Blood Claws) the size of Ragnar's GC.

 

What do we know for a fact? Ragnars company has over 200 battle hardened troops. And is the second largest.

To be fair, they are not specifically described as being the "second largest" Great Company. They are the second most successful. It may be reasonable to assume that they are therefor also one of the larger ones, but it is not what is stated. (And IIRC it says "almost two hundred", not "over two hundred".)

 

Legatus, here is the exact quote:

The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all.

 

So it doesn't specify either second in size or second in success, but since the second half of the sentence after the comma details the size, I think we have to infer that the first half of the sentence was about size, too, and not in "success".

 

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Grimtooth]

I can understand where Legatus is coming from because the wording does not specify Great Company size, only the amount of battle-hardened warriors. I can just as easily interpret the quote of,

The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all.

 

that Ragnar Blackmanes Great Company is 2nd only to Logan's in terms of how many experienced warriors his company can field, not the total amount of warriors he can field within his Great Company. Even the description of Logan Grimnar's Great Company on page 16 seems to lend itself to the fact that his company has much more experienced warriors overall with such details as,

Logan Grimnar firmly believes that a battle can be carried by a few heroes in the right place at the right time, and hence competition for a place in his Wolf Guard is extremely tough.

 

but that does not exlcude him from also having young/unexperienced/non battle-hardened within his ranks as well.

[Quillen]

Yes they would have some Blood Claws. Noobie recrutes, but who makes up the bulk of a Company? Grey hunters.

 

So if you have about 200 Harden brothers, which I am sure means something other then Blood Claws, then you would have maybe 2 or 3 packs maybe even 4 packs of Blood claws, yet this still does not make Legion size.

 

Which was the point tring to be made in the begining. Thou without proof.

 

 

So lets say Ragnar had 3 or 4 packs of noobies with his company. That is 245-260 in number. Other Companies are smaller. So lets just knock off 20 a go.

 

260

 

240

 

240 Might be a few with same number.

 

220

 

220

 

220

 

200

 

200

 

200

 

180

 

180

 

and then Logans which is bigger. Lets say it's silly huge as 400

 

So 4k in total. Still nothing like a legion. Better off then a chapter thou.

 

If you add in the fallen wolf companies maybe about 6k-8k Maybe.Many of them might have died and without in influx of blood claws they will dwindle and die at some point.

 

As to the Logan quote it's about wolf gaurd. Not troops in general. Just the wolf Gaurd as in he has alot of them and they work hard to get to that spot.

 

What we have in evidence is a chapter between 3-5k in Numbers. It might make you sad. Frustrate you, what ever, but that is the way it is. Because that is the fluff they have writen. Does it make sence? Heck no. 1k guys will not win a war for a planet. They just can't. Legion size with Imperial gaurd back up? Yup.

 

You have to use the facts thou. Just tring to nit-pick a quote and using it out of context does not do it.

 

Facts

We know they have personal ships for their wolf lords. We know they usually have about 20-60 wolf gaurd for a Great Company, and Logan has the most.

 

Ragnar's company is second behind Logan, and that was indeed a size statement.

 

Each Company grows or dies on the deeds of the Wolf Lord. So a wolf Lord who is not successful will have less followers.

 

This whole numbers arguement is beaten to death time and time again. The facts are our Companies are bigger, but not Chapter size. Black Templars are larger in total numbers but they are spread thin and used up. Dark Angels are clique-ish and loyal, but they are all about hiding their crimes and hunting the fallen.

 

Space Wolves are loyal to the Emperor and Russ. Even when a company leaves the fang and breaks fealty, it stays loyal to Russ and the Emperor, usually. Good enough.

 

Even the Horus Heresy books said it best. Everyone knows the Sons of Russ are the meanest.

[Dyre]

I concur with that Quillen posted above and agree that the 200 is in reference to the number of Grey hunters, Scouts, and long fangs in Ragnar's company. I dont think its out of the question that Logan's company is over 300 considering all the priests are counted in its number.

 

Has there ever been any information regarding the number of wolf, rune or iron priests?

[Bikeninja]

I think Valerian has the right of this. I could not remember the White Dwarf issues but knew they were around 3rd Edition. Yes they have larger than the average company but to say that it is chapter strength is again, a touch much.

 

3rd War for Armegeddon or 13th Black Crusade (can't remember which and don't have the books in front of me). All 12 Great Companies participate in the battle. I cannot for the life of me believe that all of the other Imperial elements did not notice close to 12,000 marines dressed as Space Wolves. The Black Templars have gotten away with forever because they are never in the same place at once.

 

One vague sentence from a new codex doesn't cut it for me.

[Grey Mage]

Ragnar's Great Company has about 200 men in it, and his is the second largest. Only Logan Grimnar's personal Great Company is larger. The whole Chapter most likely has less than 2,000 Marines.

 

Valerian

 

Quote the source correctly so it is not taken out of context Valerian,

The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all.

 

Specifying "battle-hardened warriors" sure leaves out a bunch of units that could not be considered "battle-hardened" and not be part of that two hundred.

Not really... thats perhaps upwards of 75 *3 large packs* of bloodclaws left out, at most.

 

It is not unreasonable to assume that with priests, wolf scouts, and iron priests all added together we have perhaps 2700 marines in arms at the current time line.

 

Now, wether or not it is always the case is unknown, but even using the epic guidelines and the last 10 years of guesstimation I can honestly say Ive never put us above 3500 marines at most.

 

What is very certain however is that currently, and likely for the past 7+ thousand years a great company has not been the size of a full strength SM chapter.

 

Quillen- your math is off, thats ~3k, not 4.

[Quillen]

I could be wrong. Going through a devorce and I have not been getting much sleep at all. I's almost 4 Am here.

[Legatus]

I concur with that Quillen posted above and agree that the 200 is in reference to the number of Grey hunters, Scouts, and long fangs in Ragnar's company. I dont think its out of the question that Logan's company is over 300 considering all the priests are counted in its number.

And I still disagree. That is a generalising description of the Company Ragnar commands. It is like saying "Ragnar with his almost two hundred brave warriors". Only they chose "his battle hardened warriors" instead.

It would also make no sense to specifically refer to the number of experienced warriors in his company and completely disregard teh Blood Claws. That would be like refering to "Sicarius, leading his company of six Tactical Squads".

 

Ragnar (like every Wolf Lord) and his Great Company are constantly in action, so it will not take long for his Blood Claws to have earned the title "battle hardened".

 

 

It is not unreasonable to assume that with priests, wolf scouts, and iron priests all added together we have perhaps 2700 marines in arms at the current time line.

That would be slightly unreasonable, as normally Scouts are included in an estimated Chapter's strength (so they are already included in the figures we are throwing around, or at least should be), while priests or officiers on the other hand are usually not included, so it would be inconsistent if we counted them for Space Wolves while not counting them for every other Chapter.

 

Every Chapter has command staff (Captains, Chaplains, Librarians, Honour Guard) or Specialists (Techmarines, Apothecaries, Standard Bearers) that are not included in a Chapter's estimated strength. For that you only count the squads of the ten companies.

Edit: So, saying "if we add the Scouts..." (which are already included) "...and the Priests" (which aren't counted for other Chapters at all) really isn't that reasonable.

[Valerian]

I concur with that Quillen posted above and agree that the 200 is in reference to the number of Grey hunters, Scouts, and long fangs in Ragnar's company. I dont think its out of the question that Logan's company is over 300 considering all the priests are counted in its number.

And I still disagree. That is a generalising description of the Company Ragnar commands. It is like saying "Ragnar with his almost two hundred brave warriors". Only they chose "his battle hardened warriors" instead.

It would also make no sense to specifically refer to the number of experienced warriors in his company and completely disregard teh Blood Claws. That would be like refering to "Sicarius, leading his company of six Tactical Squads".

 

Ragnar (like every Wolf Lord) and his Great Company are constantly in action, so it will not take long for his Blood Claws to have earned the title "battle hardened".

 

Exactly!

[Tsuro]

Legatus, here is the exact quote:

The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all.

 

So it doesn't specify either second in size or second in success, but since the second half of the sentence after the comma details the size, I think we have to infer that the first half of the sentence was about size, too, and not in "success".

 

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

 

 

I'm afraid I don't agree. If 'second only' refered merely to size, the passage would read :

"The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors"

 

instead what was written was:

"The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors and led by perhaps the most talented Wolf Lord of all"

 

Ragnar possibly being 'the most talented Wolf Lord of all' is given as a contributing factor to his company being 'second only,' suggesting that the Great Companies are being judged on something other than size.

Clearly the number is significant or it wouldn't have been mentioned, and it may well be that Ragnar's is the second largest, but we're going to need another source to confirm that interpretation.

[Dyre]

I concur with that Quillen posted above and agree that the 200 is in reference to the number of Grey hunters, Scouts, and long fangs in Ragnar's company. I dont think its out of the question that Logan's company is over 300 considering all the priests are counted in its number.

And I still disagree. That is a generalising description of the Company Ragnar commands. It is like saying "Ragnar with his almost two hundred brave warriors". Only they chose "his battle hardened warriors" instead.

It would also make no sense to specifically refer to the number of experienced warriors in his company and completely disregard teh Blood Claws. That would be like refering to "Sicarius, leading his company of six Tactical Squads".

 

Ragnar (like every Wolf Lord) and his Great Company are constantly in action, so it will not take long for his Blood Claws to have earned the title "battle hardened".

 

Exactly!

 

 

Read that line about Ragnars company, then go read the detailed page about Grey Hunters and Blood Claws in our current codex.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Several facts that I feel need to be added to this discussion.

 

First...That it takes several years for a Blood Claw to be deemed experienced enough to earn his pelt. We are talking about Soldiers that live for over two hundred years...so the idea that a week is enough fighting...thats just ridiculous. I would say somewhere between 5-20 years depending on how fierce the fighting is for that particular Wolf Lord.

 

Now...Space Wolves do take casualties...Constantly...a Blood Claw pack will easily end up losing 5-7 members during that time period as a best case scenario. Many packs are wiped out completely or down to a couple men,which are then folded into other surviving packs.

 

Fenrisians are being recruited and trained constantly.According to the novels which I do feel did a good job representing them,there were about 10-20 recruits every month,for each of three training camps. So thats around 130 recruits on average a month. Say 20 don't make it through the testing stage to get the gene seed. another 20 don't survive the Cup of the Wulfen. Now...say another 15 don't make it from the final training stages to when they get sent to their companies. Now each of these reductions have been around 15-20% at each stage,leaving a total success rate at just over 60%. I can't remember where it was stated in fluff,but that was about the average for the Wolves. So that leaves us with around 5 full packs of Blood Claws being produced every month. So....we get about 60-75 reinforcements a month. So in the space of a single year,we gain around 900 Blood Claws as a best case scenario...and at worst,I would say at least 450,and that would require a success rate of not more then 25%. Now...even at the worst case scenario...that would mean in order for us to not keep growing...we would have to lose around half a company a year.

 

Now,this also goes along with my theory that Fenrisians pretty much do three things for the entirety of their lives:Fight,Drink and Screw. Given the way Fenris is described,there really isn't that much else to do for amusement.Now,as anyone that has lived in a barren area can tell you...that ends up being how most people spend their youth

 

So it is fairly safe to say,given the evidence we have been given so far,that we recruit far more aggresively then many other Chapters. The fact we choose allready proven warriors means our recruits survive better then other Chapters to help balance out the toll that the Cup of the Wulfen does.

 

Also,add in the fact that there are many Great Companies that left the Fang and went off to do the bidding of Russ as their Wolf Lord Saw it. They are still Space Wolves,they just don't agree with the Great Wolf. This doesn't mean they wouldn't be available should the need arise.

 

Now,and this to my mind is the biggest indication that the Wolves are significantly bigger then people think. Time and again,the Space Wolves have told the Imperium to piss off,sometimes even opening fire on them. Now...yes the Fang is a fortress that is surpassed only by the defenses of the Emperor himself...But still..as opposed to every other instance of the Imperium being thwarted,when it comes to it happening with the Space Wolves,the Imperium decides to bend over and take it,rather then wiping them out.They don't send the Navy to destroy Fenris and the Fang,which though it would take serious losses,would be able to do an Exterminatus on the planet.So when you consider the Imperium is not known for being particularly forgiving of insults,nor tolerant of people not doing what they tell them to...Why would they put up with it from the Space Wolves?

[Bulweih]

...Why would they put up with it from the Space Wolves?

 

....Oh...I know, I know, I know: "Because we are just too awesome!" :rolleyes:

 

 

I'm totally with you on this brother, well said!

[Grey Mage]

The wolves were killed during the hersy,

See points three and four of my previous post. Even more Raven Guard were killed and yet they formed three successors. My personal conclusion is that either GW pusposefully left our codex vague in this matter, leaving room for the possibility of Great companies numbering anywhere from 200 to 500 OR (More likely) the fluff is just messed up.

1) The Ravengaurd actually increased their numbers through deviant gene-seed practices and cloning, and while many turned into monsters they still werent as nearly depleted at the end as they were after Istvaan.

2) The Salamanders did not form any successors afterwords.

[Legatus]

First...That it takes several years for a Blood Claw to be deemed experienced enough to earn his pelt. We are talking about Soldiers that live for over two hundred years...so the idea that a week is enough fighting...thats just ridiculous. I would say somewhere between 5-20 years depending on how fierce the fighting is for that particular Wolf Lord.

I would probably say more than that, but let's take the 5-20 for a moment. That would mean that the average Blood Claw has seen 13 years of combat. And such a warrior could not be called "battle hardened"?

 

 

Also,add in the fact that there are many Great Companies that left the Fang and went off to do the bidding of Russ as their Wolf Lord Saw it. They are still Space Wolves,they just don't agree with the Great Wolf. This doesn't mean they wouldn't be available should the need arise.

I do believe the Chapter is described as consisting of 12 Great Companies, and not "twelve Great Companies and an unknown number of rogue Great Companies".

 

 

Now,and this to my mind is the biggest indication that the Wolves are significantly bigger then people think. Time and again,the Space Wolves have told the Imperium to piss off,sometimes even opening fire on them. Now...yes the Fang is a fortress that is surpassed only by the defenses of the Emperor himself...But still..as opposed to every other instance of the Imperium being thwarted,when it comes to it happening with the Space Wolves,the Imperium decides to bend over and take it,rather then wiping them out.They don't send the Navy to destroy Fenris and the Fang,which though it would take serious losses,would be able to do an Exterminatus on the planet.So when you consider the Imperium is not known for being particularly forgiving of insults,nor tolerant of people not doing what they tell them to...Why would they put up with it from the Space Wolves?

Despite what a few Wolves players are quick to claim, the Space Wolves have had little complications with the Inquisition over the years. There was the incident of how Logan Grimnar was pissed ad them (though I think it was more at the administratum) for executintg the survivors of the First War for Armageddon. Then there is the story in the new book where the Wolves first cooperate with a radical Inquisitor and then stand up against the puritans that try to catch him later. The Wolves put up a fight, but after a while retreat. Based on the circumstances that would probably not be a ground for an excommunication. The Wolves other wise have a history of ferrocious dedication to the Emperor, and especially a first founding Chapter has certian privileges.

 

All the other complications have not been with the Inquisition, but rather with the Ecclesiarchy, which has tried to get involved in Fenris' culture at a few points, but has agressively been denied by the Space Wolves each time. But the Ecclesiarchy has no authority over the Space Marines, which are independent of the other Imperial Institutions. Most other Chapters have a truce with the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy leaves them alone and does not try to influence their Chapter traditions, and the Chaplains get their Rosarius' from the Ecclesiarchy. However, the Space Wolves have their own kinds of Priests, so perhaps they are not part of that truce.

The Ecclesiarchy might come crying to the Adeptus Terra or the Inquisition about the Space Wolves, but it is then up to the Inquisition to decide whether that is a valid complain. The Ecclesiarchy has no power to outlaw the Space Wolves. All they can do is mobilise their own fighting forces against them (usually Adepta Sororitas), but that usually is not a good idea.

[Grey Mage]

Agreed Legatus- its probly the Witch Hunters codex and the fact that Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus are associated with the church that confuses many.

[Dyre]

First...That it takes several years for a Blood Claw to be deemed experienced enough to earn his pelt. We are talking about Soldiers that live for over two hundred years...so the idea that a week is enough fighting...thats just ridiculous. I would say somewhere between 5-20 years depending on how fierce the fighting is for that particular Wolf Lord.

I would probably say more than that, but let's take the 5-20 for a moment. That would mean that the average Blood Claw has seen 13 years of combat. And such a warrior could not be called "battle hardened"?

 

Battle Hardened is a descriptor associated with Grey Hunters. Being a Blood Claw means your still getting on the job training so to speak. Which is why you still need a baby sitter for the claws if you dont want them to go do something rash.