Great Company size

[Grey Mage]

First...That it takes several years for a Blood Claw to be deemed experienced enough to earn his pelt. We are talking about Soldiers that live for over two hundred years...so the idea that a week is enough fighting...thats just ridiculous. I would say somewhere between 5-20 years depending on how fierce the fighting is for that particular Wolf Lord.

I would probably say more than that, but let's take the 5-20 for a moment. That would mean that the average Blood Claw has seen 13 years of combat. And such a warrior could not be called "battle hardened"?

 

Battle Hardened is a descriptor associated with Grey Hunters. Being a Blood Claw means your still getting on the job training so to speak. Which is why you still need a baby sitter for the claws if you dont want them to go do something rash.

Still, even if we didnt include BCs in those numbers, were still not looking at chapter sizes- an extra 50-70 guys, for around 600 more marines- assuming we take the high end and put the average of GC sizes in at 180 men otherwise, were still looking at around 2800 men.

[Legatus]

Battle Hardened is a descriptor associated with Grey Hunters.

It is also a colourful and commendatory description for any group of warriors that has not just come from the training academy. It just makes no sense to specifically point out how many Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Scouts and Wolf Guard Ragnar has in his company.

[Grey Mage]

Battle Hardened is a descriptor associated with Grey Hunters.

It is also a colourful and commendatory description for any group of warriors that has not just come from the training academy. It just makes no sense to specifically point out how many Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Scouts and Wolf Guard Ragnar has in his company.

Well, thats debatable- considering the high rate of attrition among bloodclaws it makes alot of sense in world to think of them as not contributing directly to the strength of the Great Company.

[Dyre]

Battle Hardened is a descriptor associated with Grey Hunters.

It is also a colourful and commendatory description for any group of warriors that has not just come from the training academy. It just makes no sense to specifically point out how many Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Scouts and Wolf Guard Ragnar has in his company.

 

I'm refering to in print, in the codex Grey Hunters are described as battle hardened which is the general theme of their codex entry.

[Karack Blackstone]

Blood Claws: Initiates, not quite full battle brothers, thus it is debatable if they can be numbered among the Great Company's numbers...

 

Grey Hunters: Battle-hardened Veteran warriors. (Equivalent to Tactical Marines, by and large, yet different.) I can see where this thought is coming from, and to point it out, our mindset is not the same as other persons'.

 

At issue I think is the fact that once again someone stirred the hornet's nest of arguing the size of the Chapter. We're big, but not the largest. I assume with the numbers shifting a bit, we still aren't the biggest. The fact that we think we're the best or greatest can be debated all day since each Chapter thinks it is best. We're best suited to our role in defending the Imperium.

[Dyre]

Still, even if we didnt include BCs in those numbers, were still not looking at chapter sizes- an extra 50-70 guys, for around 600 more marines- assuming we take the high end and put the average of GC sizes in at 180 men otherwise, were still looking at around 2800 men.

 

I agree, the only part of this arguement I have waded into is over the "battle hardened" definition. And that I believe it excludes any Blood Claws that may be among the GC.

 

I liked the numbers Quillen put up for the company sizes tho as you said his overall math was a bit off .

[Kenmichi]

The problem is Black Library and pre-1990 fluff was written by different people from the authors of todays codices.

 

Original GW fluff was written by people who played D&D as their primary form of entertainment. Those who play/played D&D understand that anything goes as long as you have a d20. Modern era GW authors/players are bound by a very strict set of rules and therefore lean more towards a power gamer stance. Meaning: Modern authors write from a player's perspective and the original authors wrote from an imaginative perspective.

[Legatus]

Well, thats debatable- considering the high rate of attrition among bloodclaws it makes alot of sense in world to think of them as not contributing directly to the strength of the Great Company.

Blood Claws: Initiates, not quite full battle brothers, thus it is debatable if they can be numbered among the Great Company's numbers...

Since Scouts are usually counted as part of a Chapter's strength (ten companies of ten squads is the most basic breakdown of a Chapter structure) it would be inconsistent to calculate the Space Wolves' strength without their Initiates.

 

 

I'm refering to in print, in the codex Grey Hunters are described as battle hardened which is the general theme of their codex entry.

Blood Claws: Initiates, not quite full battle brothers, thus it is debatable if they can be numbered among the Great Company's numbers...

 

Grey Hunters: Battle-hardened Veteran warriors. (Equivalent to Tactical Marines, by and large, yet different.) I can see where this thought is coming from, and to point it out, our mindset is not the same as other persons'.

A generalising statement about the members of a Chapter or Company is not exactly uncommon. GW does it for Codex Chapters as well. From the introduction of the Codex Space Marines (5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 5):

 

"Through years of the most exhaustive and rigorous training, the rough firmament of the Space Marine's mind and body are forged into that of a warrior supreme, with batle-skills and faculty of reason that far surpass those of the common man. (...)

Even fighting alone, each Space Marine is a formidable foe, with might enough to defeat many times his own number. He bears the power armour and the boltgun of those who have come before him - noble burdens that serve as constant reminder of the duty that gives him purpose and strength. Yet a Space Marine seldom fights alone. Each is but one brother in a Chapter of a thousand Warriors."

 

So, does that really mean each Chapter has 1,000 power armoured, boltgun wielding members, and then you add the Scouts on top of that?

 

The authors even keep generalising the Scouts on the same page where they are later specified to be somewwhat of an exception. From the Chapter organisation on page 16:

 

"Each of the ten companies that comprises a Chapter is led by a Space Marine Captain (...) The official fighting strength of each company is made up of ten squads each of ten Space Marines (...)"

 

Later on the same page:

 

"The Chapter's 10th Company is its Scout Company consisting of a number of Scout squads. (...) The Codex Astartes dictates no formal size for a Scout Company as the rate of recruitment is not a fixed amount."

 

 

So obviously generalisations such as "a Chapter consists of 1,000 elite Warriors, all with years of combat experience" are common for GW and are glancing over such details as Scouts not really being those fully developed power armoured warriors yet.

Similarly, a statement such as "Ragnar's Great Company is second only to that of the Great Wolf and consists of almost two hundred battle hardened warriors" refers to the entirety of his Great Company, and does not mean "his Great Company really has a total fighting strength of 240 warriors, but we are ignoring the Blood Claws for now". Why? Because that would make no sense. That would be like saying "The Silver Skulls Chapter is at full strength, so can deploy 900 warriors".

[Marshal Rohr]

This argument is ridiculous. Why would the 200 not include Blood Claws? Neophytes are included in Templar tallies and they are the exact same thing.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Firstly, we do need to acknowledge that there is an issue with fluff consistency.

I am fairly sure that Legions used to be 10K (which Legatus loves B) )

Then they became 100K (which I prefer).

100K x 20 Legions = 2,000,000 Marines. Double what we have in 40K. This makes sense to me as holding a realm is easier to do than creating one. It also coincides with 30K having superior technology to do so, etc.

 

This is not my point and I don't want to argue for it nor against it. Just telling you where I am at.

 

Back in the day, we had Adeptus Titanicus, which became Epic, which became Space Marine.

The cards they had showed a Company as 100 Marines.

The Great Companies were some 120 Space Wolves, iIrc.

 

120 x 12 GC = 1440 Space Wolves.

 

Someone around here (his sig has The Thousand Marine Myth in it) has show by using GW figures and some reasonable guesses, there are about 1600 Marines per Codex Chapter. These extra Marines are not front-line Marines, but operate Tanks, form honour Guard, are the few on Space ships, etc.

I can believe there are more than 1000 Marines, as you would not used these extra trained Marines to commit to going around in Tactical squads, etc. They are too important.

You wouldn't have just enough Scouts to fill the 10th Company ~ even a heavy campaign with 10% loses (because Marines are that good ;) ) would see the 10th Company drained and not having any spares for years. No way.

 

So lets use the GW 1440 and the 1.6 inflation factor.

 

2304 Space Wolves. This is close to 12 GC at Ragnar's strength (known to be a bigger GC) = 2400, and takes into account those Wolves that are not front-line and have even more important jobs than running xenos through with a chainsword.

 

I can believe 2.5K of Wolves.

 

The problem is that this ties in with the 10K Legion assumption, and not the 100K Legion that I prefer.

 

This is not readily reconcilable. Some fluff makes 10K proven, whilst others makes 100K proven.

 

I think there are too many assumptions involved by Brother Ramses AND by the Againsts to say "this" is the way it is. I think 2.5K SW is the best compromise. It isn't incredulous given that 1K Marines should refer to front-line Marines. It also runs fairly parallel to the 1440 that has been shown using old fluff, and coincides with what has been said in the 3 C:SW books.

 

It gives Brother Ramses some of the more he is wanting, but does not break the books.

 

10K and 100K are not compatible. They are not on the same coin. As soon as someone asserts one Legion size as true, the other becomes untrue. Which is logical and Scientific. But both are held to be true by GW :) , and so we are stuck and cannot argue with another in any progressive or constructive manner as the two sizes are not compatible. But they are both true, according to GW ;) .

 

That is what I reckon, for what it is worth.

[Dyre]

We're getting side tracked a little bit here. Its not that Blood Claws are not counted as members of a GC, its that if they are included when the author describes Ragnar's company as having almost 200 battle hardened warriors.

 

Blood Claws are never described as battle hardened. Head strong, savage and fiercely aggressive, confident and fresh, foolhardiness- all directly from the description. Space wolves use the battlefield to temper warriors not automated training grounds. Hence why directly in print on page 26 Grey Hunters are call Battle Hardened warriors. When I say general theme I mean they spend 4 paragraphs telling you Grey Hunters are Battle hardened.

 

So its not to say Blood Claws are not warriors, but are they battle hardened like Grey hunters and up?

 

 

@Marshal2 Crusaders like I said we're not talking about if they are counted overall or not. And no they are not the exact same thing, similar yes.

[Grey Mage]

Well, thats debatable- considering the high rate of attrition among bloodclaws it makes alot of sense in world to think of them as not contributing directly to the strength of the Great Company.

Blood Claws: Initiates, not quite full battle brothers, thus it is debatable if they can be numbered among the Great Company's numbers...

Since Scouts are usually counted as part of a Chapter's strength (ten companies of ten squads is the most basic breakdown of a Chapter structure) it would be inconsistent to calculate the Space Wolves' strength without their Initiates.

Different wordings, and meanings, between different codices is not uncommon.

 

A generalising statement about the members of a Chapter or Company is not exactly uncommon. GW does it for Codex Chapters as well. From the introduction of the Codex Space Marines (5th Edition Codex Space Marines, page 5):

 

"Through years of the most exhaustive and rigorous training, the rough firmament of the Space Marine's mind and body are forged into that of a warrior supreme, with batle-skills and faculty of reason that far surpass those of the common man. (...)

Even fighting alone, each Space Marine is a formidable foe, with might enough to defeat many times his own number. He bears the power armour and the boltgun of those who have come before him - noble burdens that serve as constant reminder of the duty that gives him purpose and strength. Yet a Space Marine seldom fights alone. Each is but one brother in a Chapter of a thousand Warriors."

 

So, does that really mean each Chapter has 1,000 power armoured, boltgun wielding members, and then you add the Scouts on top of that?

Actually, that might not be as off as you seem to think:

100 Veterans.

8 Companies of 100 men each.

10 Captains

Each with a Command Squad or Honor Gaurd of around 5 marines- 50.

10 Chaplains

8-15 Libbies

.... puts us just shy of 1000 warriors, not including scouts. If we put in dedicated tank drivers and thunderhawk pilots from the armory, wich some fluff says exist and others say doesnt, were easily over it.

 

In fact, a very good break down was done and is in our own librarium, wich puts a standard codex chapter at upwards of 1500 marines when you start including all members who are undergoing or have undergone the procedures to become a space marine and are alive to talk about it.

 

In general though I agree with Wilhelm- Ive always placed the SWs somewhere between 2500-3200 marines.

[wolf363839]

Given GW's love for including elements of human history in its futuristic fluff, I would lean towards a SM Legion being 10K because that is the number for the Roman Legion.

 

I also agree with around 2K of Space Wolves. GW is trying its best to stay in line with its own historical fluff while giving us clues to the great debates that they know we will have, i.e. number of Wolves.

 

Since they come out and state that Ragnar has roughly 200 warriors, you can add the 12 Great Companies together with each having a little less than that number and come up with 12 x 150 (conservative average) = 1800 warriors. Once you add in all the Priests and Rhino/Land Raider vehicle crews (which I don't think should be included in Ragnar's example), then it is easy to see how the Space Wolves could top 2K.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Well...as I said...The fluff shows us as having around 400 Blood Claws a year getting put into companies,at a minimum. And that would be at worse survival rates for the training then every other Chapter out there. Personally...I think,given all the fighting that happens with the Wolves...that we lose about..10% of our strength a year,most of the casualties coming from the Blood Claws.Probably about 90% of them Blood Claws,9% of them Grey Hunters and 1% Long Fangs.

 

So I think,all told...we have around 4000 or so that carry the Wolf GeneSeed. Of which,about 3750 or so are part of the 12 Companies,the rest are splinter groups that follow Wolf Lords that left the Fang.

 

But as it was said elsewhere in a thread much like this one...

 

How many Space Wolves are there? Just about Enough to do the job,whatever it is.

[whitewolfmxc]

- A Space Wolves force was traditionally only allowed to have between 5 and 20 Wolf Guard (though the current Codex has unfortunately ignored that), for an average of 13 per Force. If we assume (not entirely unreasonably) that the Space Wolves Chapter consists of 10% Veterans, like other Chapters do, then a typical Great Company with 13 Wolf Guard would have about 130 members in total. Ragnar's Great Company would be one with the maximum of 20 Wolf Guard, for a total of about 200 warriors. 120-130 would be the average per Great Company, but there may be the odd unlucky Wolf Lord whose entourage is less than a hundred.

 

- The old Epic Space Wolf Great Companies started out with 120 warriors (IIRC) and could get 5 additional detachments on top of that. If you added nothing but Grey Hunters you could potentially get to ~350 infantry for this one Great Company (consisting entirely of Grey Hunters...). If you instead used the 5 Detachments to add a few Blood Claws, Long Fangs and then some support vehicles (like Predators or Land Speeders, instead of constructing a completely unsupported infantry Great Company) you would have about ~180 warriors with support vehicles.

 

Argh im sorry but that 5 to 20 wolf guards in the old dexes in a squad is a GAME design not fluff, there was never any real fluff support to why there is a maximum set to that besides its just how they want to balance the unit in game , so no the new dex didnt "ignore it" the old design was just stupid , again we wolfs dont cap ourselves with numbers but with Ale capacity only XD

[Legatus]

Argh im sorry but that 5 to 20 wolf guards in the old dexes in a squad is a GAME design not fluff, there was never any real fluff support to why there is a maximum set to that besides its just how they want to balance the unit in game , so no the new dex didnt "ignore it" the old design was just stupid , again we wolfs dont cap ourselves with numbers but with Ale capacity only XD

In 2nd Edition Grey Hunters and Blood Claws came in "full" squads of 10 each. Just like Codex squads back then. Wolf Guard instead had a variable squad size, so other than all those other squads, it apparently really did not have a nominal set fighting strength per Great Company (where GH and BC did). In 3rd Edition the SW unit organisation was drastically changed, but still the Wolf Guard came in 5-20 squads. That is a bit too persistent to be merely "game design", and especially in 2nd Edition the armies were much more organised according to fluff.

 

 

Someone around here (his sig has The Thousand Marine Myth in it) has show by using GW figures and some reasonable guesses, there are about 1600 Marines per Codex Chapter. These extra Marines are not front-line Marines, but operate Tanks, form honour Guard, are the few on Space ships, etc.

I can believe there are more than 1000 Marines, as you would not used these extra trained Marines to commit to going around in Tactical squads, etc. They are too important.

You wouldn't have just enough Scouts to fill the 10th Company ~ even a heavy campaign with 10% loses (because Marines are that good msn-wink.gif ) would see the 10th Company drained and not having any spares for years. No way.

 

So lets use the GW 1440 and the 1.6 inflation factor.

That might not be a productive calculation, because a Codex Chapter's strength is measured specifically by counting it's line squads. It makes absolutely no sense to then use an entirely different measuring stick for the Space Wolves to determine their strength. That would be like saying "The Ultramarines have a full strength of 1,000 (usual method), but the Imperial Fists have a strength of 1352 (counting staff and specialists), so they are bigger."

 

How big is a Codex Chapter? --> Roughly 1,000 warriors (10 companies, each 10 squads, each 10 warriors)

 

So, how big is the Space Wolves Chapter? --> You ad all the Warriors of the 12 Great Companies. You do not count priests and command staff and specialists.

 

 

Once you have the "fighting strength" of the Space Wolves Chapter you can feel free to add all specialists for the SWs and a Codex Chapter and then compare them again. Or maybe you are really only interrested in how many members affiliated with the Spacer Wolves there are, and are not at all interrested in how big the Space Wolves Chapter is compared to a Codex Chapter (as I would have assumed).

 

You would get something like this (only arbitrarily guessed numbers, with 30% additional staff and specialists):

 

Codex Chapter strength: 1,000 warriors (~1300 total)

 

Space Wolves strength: ~1,700 warriors (~2,210 total)

[whitewolfmxc]

Argh im sorry but that 5 to 20 wolf guards in the old dexes in a squad is a GAME design not fluff, there was never any real fluff support to why there is a maximum set to that besides its just how they want to balance the unit in game , so no the new dex didnt "ignore it" the old design was just stupid , again we wolfs dont cap ourselves with numbers but with Ale capacity only XD

 

In 2nd Edition Grey Hunters and Blood Claws came in "full" squads of 10 each. Just like Codex squads back then. Wolf Guard instead had a variable squad size, so other than all those other squads, it apparently really did not have a nominal set fighting strength per Great Company (where GH and BC did). In 3rd Edition the SW unit organisation was drastically changed, but still the Wolf Guard came in 5-20 squads. That is a bit too persistent to be merely "game design", and especially in 2nd Edition the armies were much more organised according to fluff.

 

 

Exact quote from 3d edtion wolf guard entry : "There are a limited number of wolf guard in each great company and to REPRESENT this there can be never be more than 20 wolf guards in total in an player army."

 

I hope your not gonna say that doesn't mean its a game design lol again 20 isnt a exact science count but just so you cant spam them to ruin the fluff feel (back then anyway lol) for wolf guards (but yeah logan wing is different nowadays since his high king can muster all the vets he want XD)

[Marshal Rohr]

Well...as I said...The fluff shows us as having around 400 Blood Claws a year getting put into companies,at a minimum. And that would be at worse survival rates for the training then every other Chapter out there. Personally...I think,given all the fighting that happens with the Wolves...that we lose about..10% of our strength a year,most of the casualties coming from the Blood Claws.Probably about 90% of them Blood Claws,9% of them Grey Hunters and 1% Long Fangs.

 

So I think,all told...we have around 4000 or so that carry the Wolf GeneSeed. Of which,about 3750 or so are part of the 12 Companies,the rest are splinter groups that follow Wolf Lords that left the Fang.

 

But as it was said elsewhere in a thread much like this one...

 

How many Space Wolves are there? Just about Enough to do the job,whatever it is.

 

 

 

Feel free to provide exact quotations and page references for your insanely high estimate of recruits.....

[Legatus]

Exact quote from 3d edtion wolf guard entry : "There are a limited number of wolf guard in each great company and to REPRESENT this there can be never be more than 20 wolf guards in total in an player army."

 

I hope your not gonna say that doesn't mean its a game design lol again 20 isnt a exact science count but just so you cant spam them to ruin the fluff feel (back then anyway lol) for wolf guards (but yeah logan wing is different nowadays since his high king can muster all the vets he want XD)

That was the same in 2nd Edtion, so the introductory text from 3rd Edition is not really all that telling about the game designer's intention. And there may not be a set maximum size the Wolf Guard is allowed to have (the Space Wolves are pretty liberal with their organisation, after all), but at least that means that the Wolf Guard will generally be somewhere between 5 and 20 members per Great Company. And if we refer to Ragnar's Great Company again, with about two hundred warriors, that number fits perfectly with the "10% veteran ratio" other Chapters have and the maximum possible number of 20 Wolf Guard.

 

Codex Chapter: 1,000 warrirors total, 100 of them are veterans (10%)

 

Ragnars Great Company: About 200 warriors in total, probably 20 of them are Wolf Guard (10%).

 

It seems then very likely that a smaller Great Company of 130 or so members would have about 13 Wolf Guard.

 

Obviously it is not going to be that straight forward "10%veterans" in each Great Company. The Wolves are not intentionally trying to maintain such a ratio, after all. But it is a good approximation, and corresponds with the only given numbers for Great Company sizes we have compared to the traditional numbers for the amount of Wolf Guard. These different numbers make sense together.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

Well...as I said...The fluff shows us as having around 400 Blood Claws a year getting put into companies,at a minimum. And that would be at worse survival rates for the training then every other Chapter out there. Personally...I think,given all the fighting that happens with the Wolves...that we lose about..10% of our strength a year,most of the casualties coming from the Blood Claws.Probably about 90% of them Blood Claws,9% of them Grey Hunters and 1% Long Fangs.

 

So I think,all told...we have around 4000 or so that carry the Wolf GeneSeed. Of which,about 3750 or so are part of the 12 Companies,the rest are splinter groups that follow Wolf Lords that left the Fang.

 

But as it was said elsewhere in a thread much like this one...

 

How many Space Wolves are there? Just about Enough to do the job,whatever it is.

 

 

 

Feel free to provide exact quotations and page references for your insanely high estimate of recruits.....

Well,first off would be the fact that Blood Claws are trained as a group and not split up like other chapters. Second would be the descriptions from the Ragnar books,detailing 3 training camps,all roughly identical. It also goes on to describe the regularity of the classes. Around once a month. So 3 15 man squads a month. Thats the benefit of having a home world.

[Karack Blackstone]

I think it is safe to say without page references and seeing the numbers, that we're mostly in the dark as GW would seem to be inclined to keep us.

 

I still think the front-line warrior head count is accurate. That said, I also think that the counting of specialist units may include more, although that is pure speculation, and I'm willing to leave it as such.

 

The old model of 5-20 Wolf Guard was mostly a game mechanic but as stated is a representation of the fact that most Great Companies have fewer than 20 Wolf Guard, even if you figure up to 20% Wolf Guard. Following this, Logan's Chapter may be around 1,200 to 1,700 Line troops; it's the specialists, including Wolf Guard, such as Logan's Great Company, that brings in the real difference.

 

I still don't quite see the, "Each Great Company is the size of a Codex Chapter" though. Call me a skeptic but that's how I feel.

 

And that's without knowing where/when the Priests, Dreads and other parts of the Great Wolf's Great Company get counted, and who's numbers they are. As they are attached (only while attached?) they may be counted with the individual Great Companies. Until then? Likely Logan's.

 

Even if we were to figure in the totals of troops, Dreads, Scouts, Priests, Long Fangs, Wolf Guard, TWC, and all the rest...

 

230 (Guess) - Logan

+

200 (rounded) - Ragnar

+

120x10 (guess) - (Other Wolf Lords) = 1,630

 

For easy math, let's figure on 100 Grey Hunters per Great Company. Even with Long Fangs (and Blood Claws aren't necessarily counted) and we have odd numbers to work with.

 

In the Space Marine Codex if I recall, there's a page that shows the, "Ultramarine 3rd Company" I think in battle muster formation. Sixty Tacticals, two Dreadnoughts, one Captain with Honor Guard (5), 20 Jump Marines, and 20 Devastators. 108 Marines, I think? 1,000 is slightly off, even by GW's numbers. A thousand Marines is just easier to work with.

 

The fact that there are, according to the Ragnar Black Library series, units of Blood Claws also unattached, waiting for Great Companies to receive them waiting at the Fang doesn't help either. As Logan is the current Great Wolf, do his numbers include these BC's while they await a GC? There's alot more to this, and the circles will only become longer the more time we have these debates. There's no real reason for it, but if we just go with:

 

108 Ultramarines per Battle Company X 9 + (unknown number of scouts, Dreads, Lib's, Chap's, Apoth's... [etc.]) = Unknown.

 

130 Space Wolves per Great Company (Guess) X 10 + ~200 (Ragnar) + 230 (Logan [guess]) + (Unknown number of BC's, Scouts, Dreads, Priests, [etc.]) =

...

Unknown.

[Grey Mage]

Well...as I said...The fluff shows us as having around 400 Blood Claws a year getting put into companies,at a minimum. And that would be at worse survival rates for the training then every other Chapter out there. Personally...I think,given all the fighting that happens with the Wolves...that we lose about..10% of our strength a year,most of the casualties coming from the Blood Claws.Probably about 90% of them Blood Claws,9% of them Grey Hunters and 1% Long Fangs.

 

So I think,all told...we have around 4000 or so that carry the Wolf GeneSeed. Of which,about 3750 or so are part of the 12 Companies,the rest are splinter groups that follow Wolf Lords that left the Fang.

 

But as it was said elsewhere in a thread much like this one...

 

How many Space Wolves are there? Just about Enough to do the job,whatever it is.

 

 

Feel free to provide exact quotations and page references for your insanely high estimate of recruits.....

Well, if we follow the ever popular william king books there are approximately 200 trainees in a given camp, and three training camps... of the camp, there were about 50ish survivors who underwent the process to become bloodclaws- and about 40 or so of them survived that. If we take this as a baseline your looking at around 130 bloodclaws every time they have a session- wich from the sounds of it was around every two years.

 

I dont know where this 400 or so comes from, but thats what Ive always based my recruiting estimates off of.

[Requiem of the Wolf]

From the fact that there was more then one training session happening at a time. There were ones that were at the camp before Ragnar got there,and ones that showed up after.

[Grimtooth]

Grey I think your numbers are a little off in terms of how many sessions. RotW has it right with multiple overlapping training sessions.

 

If we place the "battle-hardened" casualties of a Great Company at a conservative 10%, 130 Blood Claws every 2yrs results in a deficit....lol. Not to mention the outrageous casualty rate of Blood Claws, Sky Claws, and Swift Claws.

 

So with the number you propose, you wouldn't be able to cover the yearly casualties by any means.

 

Now what no one has been able to answer with nothing more then hypothetical attrition theories is what happened to the Space Wolves Legion during the heresy and after to shrink them to what some of you propose?

 

Just from what I can recall right now while at work, after Prospero, the Alpha Legion was sent by Horus to delay them. Was that a massacre of Space Wolves? Nothing in the fluff hints that the Wolves suffered severe casualties other then be delayed.

 

What about the Great Scouring? Besides the loss to Huron, what else in recorded fluff decimated the Space Wolves Legion.

 

We have the 2nd Founding of the Wolfbrothers , but nothing in the fluff points to the Wolves suffering casualties to the point that the 2nd Founding would only leave 1-1.5k in the original Space Wolves Legion, now

Chapter.

 

The only comparison of the heresy is the Ultramarines who were fighting on the fringe during the Siege of Terra and thus did not suffer significant losses. The Wolves were also fighting on the fringe during the Siege of Terra, so would they have not suffered much less casualties as well? IIRC, Horus was said to have known of the imminent arrival of the almost untouched Ultras and SW would lose him the Siege of Terra so that is why he lowered his shields.

 

So the camp for almost Codex Astartes size Great Companies stands on the following:

 

1. Undocumented mass casualties from the Horus Heresy to present time and unprecented freeze/reduction on recruitment and training of new Wolves.

 

2. Clinging to a description of a specific type of warrior and applying it to the entire GC. Just a note, if you say that Ragnar's GC has about 20% more experienced Space Wolves, 200 would be 20% of my proposed 1000 Wolf Great Companies

 

3. Merely shrugging it off to bad fluff writing.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Ragnar's Great Company has about 200 men in it, and his is the second largest. Only Logan Grimnar's personal Great Company is larger. The whole Chapter most likely has less than 2,000 Marines.

 

Valerian

 

I'm with valerian for the reason as he stated. I can't see any other size debate being possible in light of this info. from the dex.

 

3. Merely shrugging it off to bad fluff writing

. Then it is bad fluff writing, which is another thread and debate altogether.