Great Company size

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

promotion from blood claw to grey hunter isnt measured in years its measured on how the blood claw acts, if he gets a cool head and stays calm then he is ripe for promotion to the grey hunters; if he is still howling mad murphy swinging his chainsword like a fool and trying to do rolls and back flips all while humming his theme song then yeah hes still a blood claw.

 

your age doesnt matter its who you are and how you act and who you kill that matters in space wolf promotions not how long you been with the company (except long fangs where long fangs, white hair, poor hearing, and power canes are mandatory)

 

also Space Wolves act in a you kill it you keep it attitude. If you got a wolf priest attached to your company who really loves his job and is bringing new recruits in the dozens and they get trained fairly well hey guess what your gonna have a large company with lots of blood claws, however if the wolf lord or his wgbl are lead into a trap and most of your guys get ambushed then itty biddy company.

 

it really depends on who your leader is for example Bjorn Stormwolf loves frontal assaults hes gonna have a big company at the beginning of every campaign but its gonna get shot up, however erik morkai is gonna have a fairly successful company due to stealth work and tactics (however this could also work in reverse as he may only need a few marines maybe 70 or so. you never know

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Basically the Space Wolves are still a legion like Chaos Space Marines since they only had two chapters split off - the infamous Wolf Brothers and the 13th Company. I can definitely see a case being made that many of the Great Companies are at the same strength as Space Marine chapter.

 

0b ;)

[S. Bloodhowl]

promotion from blood claw to grey hunter isnt measured in years its measured on how the blood claw acts, if he gets a cool head and stays calm then he is ripe for promotion to the grey hunters; if he is still howling mad murphy swinging his chainsword like a fool and trying to do rolls and back flips all while humming his theme song then yeah hes still a blood claw.

 

your age doesnt matter its who you are and how you act and who you kill that matters in space wolf promotions not how long you been with the company (except long fangs where long fangs, white hair, poor hearing, and power canes are mandatory)

 

also Space Wolves act in a you kill it you keep it attitude. If you got a wolf priest attached to your company who really loves his job and is bringing new recruits in the dozens and they get trained fairly well hey guess what your gonna have a large company with lots of blood claws, however if the wolf lord or his wgbl are lead into a trap and most of your guys get ambushed then itty biddy company.

 

it really depends on who your leader is for example Bjorn Stormwolf loves frontal assaults hes gonna have a big company at the beginning of every campaign but its gonna get shot up, however erik morkai is gonna have a fairly successful company due to stealth work and tactics (however this could also work in reverse as he may only need a few marines maybe 70 or so. you never know

 

Does the whole pack not get promoted at once as well or is that just an old wives tale I heard from some rambling Ultramarinemadman?

 

Oh and one more thing:

your age doesnt matter its who you are and how you act and who you kill that matters in space wolf promotions not how long you been with the company (except long fangs where long fangs, white hair, poor hearing, and power canes are mandatory)

 

Sig'd!!

[Quillen]

Originally you were premoted solo. Like in the Ragnar books. You pack becomes Blood Claws and they you could be sent to another wolf lord or what ever. There is also fluff where the whole pack goes up at once, but this does not make any sence.

 

As to Black Orange, no we are not a legion. We are at most 4 or 5k strong. That's it. Do the math. It's mentioned everywhere. Read this very thread for the facts they are up there.

 

We lost alot of peeps during the Hersy. Then we made the Wolf brothers. And that took out 1,000 from the fang.

 

Following the facts in the fluff, we are about 3,000-4,000. I don't like it. It's not realistic, but it is what it is.

[Marshal Rohr]

You do not have more than 2000 marines..... Its no where NEAR 4000....

 

 

Even during the Heresy you were a smaller Legion.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

Actually that is open to debate. We have the 12 great company 2 of which number 200+ battle ready brothers this does not include drivers for rhinos raiders or speeders hawks and other vehicles. Then you have the 3 priest orders which would have the runes being the smallest probably 20+ wolf priest probably around 30 and techpriest around 60 or so you need to man the forges t hawks and raiders not to mention the ships. Then there's the 13th company which numbers who knows how many and the rogue space wolves loyal to the emperor but not the current great wolf as seen in the 3rd edition codex and I forgot about the scouts and dreads so it could very well number in the 4000 maybe even more

[Marshal Rohr]

No, no, no. When you dont follow the Codex your company size does include drivers, etc. Ragnar's company numbers 'almost' 200 warriors (not 200 warriors) and is second only to Grimnar's. That means all the other companies are under 200. Which means that if all the other companies have around 150 (which they dont) some will be small (like Erik Morkai with his predilection for sneakiness), then you wont be breaking 4000 any time soon.

 

The 13th Company doesn't count, nor do the renegade companies, any more than the Honor Company counts for the Ultramarines nor the brothers seconded to the Deathwatch.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

Ah but are they or are they not space wolves? A space wolf of any colour as long as he is loyal to the emperor is counted

 

to further strengthen my defenses ragnar's company description states he boasts almost 200 warriors. last i checked but support is not warriors. these can range from blood claws of every flavor and grey hunters, long fangs and so on and so forth but ive never figured support such as drivers and gunners would ever count as warriors. so yes they do count. whether its codex or not.

 

you are right that all but one company is under 200 but this can range literally from 1-199 and i highly doubt any wolf lord is running with a company of himself.

 

tell me how the 13th dont count? they even have their own list with wolf lords, rune priests, and wolf priests. so yes they do count as they still manage to play an active role in the background whether its saving those poor cadians in the eye of terror as per the 5th ed codex, or taking part in the 13th crusade, as they are counted still as space wolves in fluff as per one the newer space wolf series; and as said as long as a wolf is still loyal to the emperor hes a space wolf. also i forgot about the wolf blade which numbers 23-28 space wolves guarding the navigators of house belisaurus

[Legatus]

Now what no one has been able to answer with nothing more then hypothetical attrition theories is what happened to the Space Wolves Legion during the heresy and after to shrink them to what some of you propose?

 

Just from what I can recall right now while at work, after Prospero, the Alpha Legion was sent by Horus to delay them. Was that a massacre of Space Wolves? Nothing in the fluff hints that the Wolves suffered severe casualties other then be delayed.

 

What about the Great Scouring? Besides the loss to Huron, what else in recorded fluff decimated the Space Wolves Legion.

 

We have the 2nd Founding of the Wolfbrothers , but nothing in the fluff points to the Wolves suffering casualties to the point that the 2nd Founding would only leave 1-1.5k in the original Space Wolves Legion, now

Chapter.

If you assume that the Space Wolves as a "smaller" Legion has been about 8,000 to 9,000, then you need 6,000 or more casualties to arrive to the smaller size. But when you assume that a "smaller" Legion was about 6,000 on average, you only need about 3,000 of casualties, which would have been less than most of the other Legions have suffered, including the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines had lost about a third of their strength during the Word Bearer's surprise assault on Calth, which would probably have been around 8,000 casualties, still leaving them with 16,000 and significantly larger than the other Legions.

 

 

We have the 12 great company 2 of which number 200+ battle ready brothers this does not include drivers for rhinos raiders or speeders hawks and other vehicles. Then you have the 3 priest orders which would have the runes being the smallest probably 20+ wolf priest probably around 30 and techpriest around 60 or so you need to man the forges t hawks and raiders not to mention the ships. Then there's the 13th company which numbers who knows how many and the rogue space wolves loyal to the emperor but not the current great wolf as seen in the 3rd edition codex and I forgot about the scouts and dreads so it could very well number in the 4000 maybe even more

Aside from "we have the 12 great company 2 of which number 200+" NOTHING you listed contributes to the Space Wolves' calculated fighting strength. For that you only count the number of warriors in the companies' squads. Scouts are already included in the estimated company sizes.

 

 

to further strengthen my defenses ragnar's company description states he boasts almost 200 warriors. last i checked but support is not warriors.

No, they are not. And they are not counted to determine the Chapter's fighting strength. A Chapter's fighting strength, usually set to 1,000 for Codex Chapters, is determined by adding all the squads of the Chapter's companies. Chapter command staff, specialists, drivers, etc. are all ignored for that. If you really only want to determine the total number of Chapter members tehn you would probably include all of them, but since we do not know the total number of members for a Codex Chapter that number would be nothing more than trivia, without any informational value, as we could not compare the Space Wolves total numbers to any other Chapter's total numbers. What we do know from other Chapters is their standard fighting strength, so I think that is probably what we should be interested in determining.

 

 

you are right that all but one company is under 200 but this can range literally from 1-199 and i highly doubt any wolf lord is running with a company of himself.

Based on the average Wolf Guard numbers fromprevious editions, my estimation for an average Great Conmpany strength is about 125 warriors. 50 or so would perhaps be the brest minimum before a Great Company is disbanded and added to another Wolf Lord's men (the small Great Company could no tbe relied on to achieve much). Great Companies that focus heavily on armoured warfare might be able to fight with merely 50-80 warriors, supporting the armoured assaults.

 

 

tell me how the 13th dont count?

Because they are still for all intents and purposes officially considered KIA by the Space Wolves Chapter. They are the stuff of legend, not an asset the Space Wolves Chapter can call upon. The 13th Company Index Astartes even described how it was not sure whether the Spae Wolves would accept them back or not, IIRC.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

Except that logan at the end of the black crusade offered them a chance back to which the 13th stated they will continue the hunt. Also no the wolves don't consider the 13th kia just off on the great hunt

 

Sorry but you must count every member when determining a chapters ate the wolves stil number in the !3000s

[Legatus]

Sorry but you must count every member when determining a chapters ate the wolves stil number in the !3000s

Seriously, what use would knowing the total amount of Space Wolves Chapter members have? We do not know the total amount of a Codex Chapter's members, so we could not compare the Space Wolves number to the generic number. The number would tell you nothing of value. So what if the total number was 3,000 men? Do Codex Chapters have 1,500 (so the Space Wolves are twice as big), or do they maybe have closer to 2,000 (so the Space Wolves "only" have 50% more)?

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

That space wolves are the largest and the greatest chapter. They out number the templars out shoot the guard and put fight orks and blood angles. The wolves can bring the most guns the most bodies and the biggest hammer to any gates

[Sharpsilver]

That space wolves are the largest and the greatest chapter. They out number the templars out shoot the guard and put fight orks and blood angles. The wolves can bring the most guns the most bodies and the biggest hammer to any gates

 

The black Templars are the largest Chapter.

 

Greatest?...... *smirk* :P

[Legatus]

That space wolves are the largest

We already know that the Space Wolves are larger than a Codex Chapter. And determining their fighting strength would give us an idea how much larger they are. Determining their total number would not tell us anything, since we do not know the total number for a Codex Chapter. But I think I already mentioned that.

[Karack Blackstone]

That space wolves are the largest

We already know that the Space Wolves are larger than a Codex Chapter. And determining their fighting strength would give us an idea how much larger they are. Determining their total number would not tell us anything, since we do not know the total number for a Codex Chapter. But I think I already mentioned that.

 

In my long post on page three of this thread, the Codex Space Marines book has a fighting company shown (I think the third) that has a total of 108 Marines to its roster. This includes tacticals, assault, Dev, and the Captain, Honor Guard and a Dread. This totals 108. Thus, the fighting strength of a regular Space Marine Chapter is around 108 X 9, + (Scouts/Recruits). That's 972 without scouts. So slightly over 1,000 would be about normal.

 

I expect by similar extrapolation, though vastly more detailed and convoluted due to where/when to count attached units, the Space Wolves are closer to the 2,000 to 3,000 mark on numbers. I would not expect us to be nearly a chapter for each Great Company, however.

 

And as to the greatest, that's arguable at best.

[Legatus]

In my long post on page three of this thread, the Codex Space Marines book has a fighting company shown (I think the third) that has a total of 108 Marines to its roster. This includes tacticals, assault, Dev, and the Captain, Honor Guard and a Dread. This totals 108. Thus, the fighting strength of a regular Space Marine Chapter is around 108 X 9, + (Scouts/Recruits). That's 972 without scouts. So slightly over 1,000 would be about normal.

What about Priests, Librarians, Chapter HQ (including the actual Honour Guard), Techmarines and armoury vehicle crews?

 

 

Edit: Btw, the Black Templar strength of "4000 - 6000" is only the fighting strenght as well, without staff, naturally. So, again, the total number of Space Wolves members would not give us any insight in comparative size.

[Grey Mage]

You do not have more than 2000 marines..... Its no where NEAR 4000....

 

 

Even during the Heresy you were a smaller Legion.

More than 2k is rather easy, 3500 is possible. And still certainly smaller than the projected number of BTs.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Debate still in circles. Demise may be soon....

[Captain Idaho]

Here’s an interesting twist for people to consider:

 

The Black Templar’s Index Astartes article specifically states that the Black Templars strength numbers around 5 thousand, and goes on to say that this is a size no force in the Imperium can rival/beat. Therefore if the Space Wolves are equal to or greater in numbers than the Black Templars, that would make them inferior to them if they couldn’t defeat them.

 

So basically it is in the interests of Space Wolves fans to make their assumptions much more conservative, or else they are accepting that the Black Templars can take them in a fight! :)

[Grey Mage]

Here’s an interesting twist for people to consider:

 

The Black Templar’s Index Astartes article specifically states that the Black Templars strength numbers around 5 thousand, and goes on to say that this is a size no force in the Imperium can rival/beat. Therefore if the Space Wolves are equal to or greater in numbers than the Black Templars, that would make them inferior to them if they couldn’t defeat them.

 

So basically it is in the interests of Space Wolves fans to make their assumptions much more conservative, or else they are accepting that the Black Templars can take them in a fight! :D

There is no way that there are 5k SWs.

 

Why? Because the BT are the largest chapter out there- period.

 

However, around 3k of SWs is certainly viable.... and as for the unable to rival/beat, much the same can be said about everything- and usually is.

[Grimtooth]

Did the entire SW Legion attack Prospero?

[Lord Ragnarok]

Here’s an interesting twist for people to consider:

 

The Black Templar’s Index Astartes article specifically states that the Black Templars strength numbers around 5 thousand, and goes on to say that this is a size no force in the Imperium can rival/beat. Therefore if the Space Wolves are equal to or greater in numbers than the Black Templars, that would make them inferior to them if they couldn’t defeat them.

 

So basically it is in the interests of Space Wolves fans to make their assumptions much more conservative, or else they are accepting that the Black Templars can take them in a fight! :huh:

 

I was actually thinking this the other night. SW's kick a lot of butt fluff wise. If doing so with less numbers it makes us more fearsome.

 

I think there are two fluff standpoints to "frame" the numbers of official SW's. Our codex defines the number of marines based on Ragnars "200". BT's are known to be the largest loyal SM force, albeit fairly scattered.

 

Now that said, I'm a firm believer in the much forgotten lost companies of SW. Those who renounce fealty to the Great Wolf, but are still loyal to Russ and the Emperor. Although many have been slain with no replenishment there are probably still many out there who could come to the call of Fenris if in dire need(The Wolftime). Those numbers could only be guessed, but that, and with the former point about being small but nasty, makes us a very fearsome force when all the chips are down.

[Quillen]

Indeed. Which was the way out for those of us wanting to make successor chapter off the wolves. We get Renegades. Which my own force is.

 

And the number is probly around 3k maybe 4.

 

 

The Quote states Ragnar has 200 battle hardened troops. Meaning they have seen action. Add in Blood Claws, whom Ragnar loves, and you would have over 200.

 

Logans is even bigger with a huge number of Wolf Gaurd. So over 200 peeps right there.

 

 

I don't remember where it came from but I thought the first Great Company Ragnar joined in the books had 142 peeps. Not sure where that came from. But that Wolf Lord had a small force.

 

 

So just do the math. A little gues-ta-mation, and you get about 2,200. Without the Rune Priests, Wolf Priests, and Iron Priests, and all the dreadnoughts. That is a Guess-ta-mation thou. Still it's a good bet.

 

Then you have Wolf Lords whom could not bend knee for one reason or another. They have left the Fang and struck out on thier own. Still loyal to Russ and the Emperor's dream, yet own their own. So how many of them are there? 10k years worth. So like one every 1k or More? Or Less?

 

So we are pushing over 3k in all likely hood, maybe 4k.

 

Yes Black Templars are more numerus in numbers on the books. Loyal and scattered all over doing the bidding of the Inquisition.

 

 

 

 

What it all really comes down to is people seeing the load of crap that a chapter could take a world. Ever our world would own them in a stand up fight. Forcing them to orbital strike. No other way.

 

I feel we need legions again. I would like to see each Chapter returned to Legion strength. So you could have friends playing the same legion but it's so large you have room for personal flare on models. it makes more sence too.

They probly did a thousand so people with alot of time, and even more money could make their own chapter. Still, it's not realistic. So if your a pureist, we are about 3k strong at best. If your a realist you want it to be 5k+, cause that makes more sence. And that will always been the simple fact.

 

There is also the jealous no.Ob catagory. They want us to be as small and puny as their legion. And freak when you point out we are bigger. Some sorta complex. hopefully they can work there way out of it.

 

Someone said we were the smallest. Not true someone else is but that is exscaping my mind at this point. Was it Salamanders? Or Raven gaurd?

[Legatus]

I don't remember where it came from but I thought the first Great Company Ragnar joined in the books had 142 peeps. Not sure where that came from. But that Wolf Lord had a small force.

It would be interresting to get a source for that. Did it say that it was considered a small force, or was that your own opinion? Perhaps it was merely an average force? My own estimations (which are qite rough and mainly based on the traditional average number for Wolf Guard and the assumption that the Chapter has about 10% Veterans) are that the average size for a Great Company would be 125 men.

 

 

Then you have Wolf Lords whom could not bend knee for one reason or another. They have left the Fang and struck out on thier own. Still loyal to Russ and the Emperor's dream, yet own their own. So how many of them are there? 10k years worth. So like one every 1k or More? Or Less?

 

So we are pushing over 3k in all likely hood, maybe 4k.

- Space Marines have a life expectancy of a few hundred years

 

- the technology for recruitment is not trivial

 

- neither is replacement for lost armour, weapons and vehicles

 

- A rogue Great Company could not reruit from Fenris, so would have to recruit from "weaker" initiates

 

All of that makes it very unlikely that a rogue Great Company would survive for more than a single millenium. So you really only realistically can count on the Great Companies that have left the Chapter less than 1,000 years ago. Based on that I would find more than an additional 150 - 300 warriors very unlikely. But then I would not count Great Companies that have "recanted their oaths of fealty" to the forces at the disposal of the Space Wolves Chapetr anyway.

 

 

What it all really comes down to is people seeing the load of crap that a chapter could take a world. Ever our world would own them in a stand up fight. Forcing them to orbital strike. No other way.

I don't think I have ever seen anyone claim that a Chapter could easily take Fenris. A single Chpater can take a well defended world. A well defended world that is also defended by another Space Marine Chapter is something else entirely. And on top of that Fenris has an exceptional and unique fortress. (Though, to be fair, the rest of it's defenses is virtually nonexistant. It has no PDF at all. It's defenses basically amount to the Space Wolves Chapter and the Fang, which is still substantial.)

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

who needs a pdf when the elements due the best job of fighting your enemies, then you got the wolves and the tribesmen as the soldiers of the apostate found out. let alone that the fang can easily be defended by a small amount of warriors against a vast horde of thousands.