Great Company size

[Legatus]

What I am trying to say, is that you have no counterargument for the growth capability of the Space Wolves in comparison with the other loyal Legions. You cannot explain away where are the rest of the Space Wolves have gone nor do your proposed numbers for the Chapter mesh with the Space Wolves capability to produce Space Wolves and their obvious lack of successor chapters.

I am still not sure what rgument you are trying to make. After the Scouring the Space Wolves Legion had enough left for two Chapters, while most of the other Legions were split into 3-5 Chapters, the big exception being the Ultramarines. All the Chapters that have been created in later Foundings were created because it had been decided that more Chapters were needed. All the Chapters from later Foundings are created from scratch, with 1,000 Marines bred specifically for that purpose. They are not formed from Marines split off from other existing Chapters. They were not created because the existing Chapters had created so much excess gene-seed that they now had to make more Marines so it wouldn't go to waste. There are no Space Wolves successors from later Foundings because the AdMech doesn't think that their gene-seed is suitable for that, not because the Space Wolves somehow have a lower recruitment rate or no excess gene-seed where other Chapters have. I thought that was common knowledge.

 

 

Edit:

When will people realise that there is little continuity in GW fluff and therefore this whole discussion is a moot point.

 

Until GW actually state that the Space Wolves chapter is xxxx strong, we won't know. And personally, I don't care; does it really matter? Not one bit.

 

I'm more entertained by how wound up some of the people in this thread are getting about a GAME, seriously, the way some of you talk to each other, outsiders would see it and think you think it's bloody real!

Welcome to the Bolter & Chainsword Forum. A hobby forum where hobby topics are discussed. If someone starts a thread asking how big a Space Wolves Great Company is, or proposing that a Great Company is the size of a Chapter in his opinion, then you will likely get replies stating what size a Great Company might be, or a discussion about the issue. That is generally what Forums are used for. :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Do you guys serve Martinis? cool.gif They are all the rage on Baal

Nice try. Here, have a stout. It's good for you! ;)

 

*mmm, yum* It's Black ~ it must be good ;)

 

Aye, I can just see it now, if Blackmane is indeed able to read:

*Puts down his space wolves codex* My brothers, it appears giving out the number of wolf guard has had all the codexs reader's heads spinning like a lone hunt for a pack of thunderwolf while plastered!

*Roar comes from his 200 Wolf Guard and 2,000 grey hunters in a very overcrowded drinking hall.*

I agree, drawing any conclusion to numbers is going to end badly, so "enough for the job" tends to be a satisfying enough answer.

 

What?! *blasts foam from his mouth*

Rags only had 2K Grey Hunters?! ;) :P :lol:

 

When will people realise that there is little continuity in GW fluff and therefore this whole discussion is a moot point.

Until GW actually state that the Space Wolves chapter is xxxx strong, we won't know. And personally, I don't care; does it really matter? Not one bit.

I'm more entertained by how wound up some of the people in this thread are getting about a GAME, seriously, the way some of you talk to each other, outsiders would see it and think you think it's bloody real! :lol:

 

It is real you scallywag! :P

*has another sip, "aiding" his story telling prowess :) *

I have got into fluff debates, and after come out the other side, wondered what all the huff and puff was about. Conflicting fluff means we aren't arguing two sides of the same coin ~ so we'll never be reconciled.

[Chodjinn]

When will people realise that there is little continuity in GW fluff and therefore this whole discussion is a moot point.

 

Until GW actually state that the Space Wolves chapter is xxxx strong, we won't know. And personally, I don't care; does it really matter? Not one bit.

 

I'm more entertained by how wound up some of the people in this thread are getting about a GAME, seriously, the way some of you talk to each other, outsiders would see it and think you think it's bloody real!

Welcome to the Bolter & Chainsword Forum. A hobby forum where hobby topics are discussed. If someone starts a thread asking how big a Space Wolves Great Company is, or proposing that a Great Company is the size of a Chapter in his opinion, then you will likely get replies stating what size a Great Company might be, or a discussion about the issue. That is generally what Forums are used for. :P

 

 

Indeed, thanks for pointing that out about forums I've always wondered :) finally I can sleep peacefully at night.

 

However this particular thread comes up every couple of months, and the same debate rages on without answer; it's just tedious, and the manner in which arguements, rational or replies are presented are often ridiculously childish. I seriously get the impression that some of these threads are started purely for people to rack up Internet Air Miles! :lol:

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Welcome to the Bolter & Chainsword Forum. A hobby forum where hobby topics are discussed. If someone starts a thread asking how big a Space Wolves Great Company is, or proposing that a Great Company is the size of a Chapter in his opinion, then you will likely get replies stating what size a Great Company might be, or a discussion about the issue. That is generally what Forums are used for. :P

 

But we aren't talking about something that can actually be resolved. If GW had not flip flopped in the numbers they have used, and we were just gathering clues, then a debate or discussion would actually have a goal to reach, rather than just Bob saying "I think this" and Jim saying "No it's this" and back and forth ad naseum until people get offended, give up or something else.

 

Talking for the sake of talking and no one actually being satisfied [because the fluff numbers are not reconcilable] is futile and a solid chance for people to get offended, due to being rebuked but only according to someone who favours different fluff. Yes?

 

Indeed, thanks for pointing that out about forums I've always wondered :) finally I can sleep peacefully at night.

However this particular thread comes up every couple of months, and the same debate rages on without answer; it's just tedious, and the manner in which arguements, rational or replies are presented are often ridiculously childish. I seriously get the impression that some of these threads are started purely for people to rack up Internet Air Miles! :lol:

 

I'm with you Chod

[Requiem of the Wolf]

To counter this,I would point out that oftentimes,these discussions do teach at least some of the readers new bits of lore and fluff which means these threads arent completely without value.

[Beef]

To counter this,I would point out that oftentimes,these discussions do teach at least some of the readers new bits of lore and fluff which means these threads arent completely without value.

 

 

Yes they do and at they same time they dont. People still take away what they want from these topics. Especially as there is no right or wrong answer newbies will take whichever side of the argument suits them.

 

I agree with Chodjinn and Marshal Wilhelm, these same threads pop up nearly every month. The same arguments get bashed around without any conclusion. Mostly the older members just sit back and feel like they are trapped in a ground hod type thread.

 

Anyway enough of this, lets get to the bar, first round is on me. I am sure we can even find a martini for Wilhelm. (we usually keep something for ladies)

[Logan Bane]

I don't know if this has been pointed out or not, since i didn't read the entire thread, but with the discussion about pre-heresy number and today's space wolfs number, i think and forgive me if i quote this wrong but in the second or third space wolf book about the spear of Russ all of the great company's except for one would leave for major operations. The reason for this is because if something was to happen to the 11 great company's the 12th one would help rebuild the chapter, which has happen 3 times according to the books where all 11 great company's were wipe out and the 12th one would have the responsibility to rebuild.

This is what i remembered from the books.

[Sharpsilver]

I don't know if this has been pointed out or not, since i didn't read the entire thread, but with the discussion about pre-heresy number and today's space wolfs number, i think and forgive me if i quote this wrong but in the second or third space wolf book about the spear of Russ all of the great company's except for one would leave for major operations. The reason for this is because if something was to happen to the 11 great company's the 12th one would help rebuild the chapter, which has happen 3 times according to the books where all 11 great company's were wipe out and the 12th one would have the responsibility to rebuild.

This is what i remembered from the books.

 

All correct plus the one single Great Company, as well as being tasked with re-building the Chapter in the rare case that all other eleven Great Companies are wiped out, will also be tasked with defending the Fang. Any attacker would jump at the prospect of the sons of Russ not being present within the Fang. Although, I imagine even if they were not present, the skalds and automated systems would be more than adequate to deal with most enemy incursions, probably not getting even close to Dropping onto the Planet itself, but more than likely blown into tiny fragments by the Weapon-batteries defending Fenris.

 

On topic of numbers I will go with what the majority of people think, and say that the current numbers are somewhere between 2000 and 2500. That's a good estimate I bet.

 

Despite what people think, the Space Wolves are not the largest Chapter. They are second to the Black Templars, who maintain a significantly larger fleet-based strength, however as said in their fluff, that number is rarely actually encountered due to them being at separate sides of the Galaxy on various Crusades.

 

If you count the 13th Company still as part of the Company, however not strictly, then the number of Sons of Russ still representing the 13th Company would number depending on your view of how large they were when the 13th Company went off to pursue the Thousand Sons in the Eye of Terror. This number ranges. If what some people think, the Wolves numbered 10000 after the sacking of Prospero, then there would be about 770 in each Great Company on average. Double that, and you get just over 1,500. I personally think there were around 25,000 Space Wolves around and about after the heresy. We didn't get slaughtered in any form like the Imperial Fists did in the Iron Cage incident, the Space Wolves were very fortunate to be one of the few legions that didn't sustain a immense number of Casualties during the Heresy. It's also a possibility that the sacking of Prospero was very one-sided. They had absolutely no idea that Leman Russ was bringing 12 Great Companies to bare on Prospero until they were breaking out of Warp Space and they had no chance of repelling them. Only Magnus knew and he didn't tell his legion due to the fact he felt like it was deserved due to him going against the Emperors orders not to use Warp-powers, however, obviously later on he saw 'the light' in a chaos sense and was saved by Tzeentch.

 

In Prospero Burns we will undoubtedly come across much more information that will help us fill in the blanks about Prospero and how it happened, and perhaps shed some light on how many 13th Company went off to persue the thousand sons and also how many casualties the Wolves took. I'm looking forward to it.

 

Back on the side of numbers, and what other people have said, we can't take anything for sure. We are given quite vague details on the numbers of the Wolves. The 'almost 200' battle hardened-warriors quote can be taken several ways. Being that there are no more than 200 per Company, or that each Company has at least a said number of battle-hardened warriors, and then separating them from Recruits, or so on.

 

The great thing about the Sons of Russ is that you can't be sure. So for anybodies sake, each company could have 250, 200, 150 or 100.

 

I think this discussion has absorbed nearly all sources of evidence we can account for the number of Space Wolves per Great Company, but it's always nice to see other people's views on such matters, and people can learn a thing or two from such discussions. ;)

[Legatus]

What I am still basing a lot of my estimations on (even before the reference to Ragnar having 200 battle hardened warriors in the newest Codex) is that the background bits since 2nd Edition pretty much describe how the Space Wolves were reformed into a smaller Chapter at the end of the Heresy like every other Legion was. But earlier sources (2nd and 3rd Edition) were much more specific about that than more recent one's, so I see a lot of claims that the Space Wolves never really were reduced in size like the other Legions were as the basis for claims that Great Companies are the size of an entire Chapter. I would usually quote a wall of sources for that, but I do not have access to my books at the moment.

 

 

The accumulated sources that lead me to believe that the Space Wolves were reduced to a Chapter of "near" 1,000 (though perhaps more, just shy of two Chapter's worth) after the Heresy are these:

 

 

- Space Marine Codices from 2nd Edition till today explain how all Legions were eventually split into smaller Chapters to spread the power. That is not really disputed in the Space Wolves background, see below.

 

- The Black Templars Index Astartes and Black Templars Codex describe how Dorn initially protested against the split, and was backed by Leman Russ and Vulkan, but Dorn eventually relented when conflict threatened to erupt. That is about the end of any protest we are told about.

 

- The Space Wolves sources since 2nd Edition do not themselves mention how Russ was against the splitting up, and indeed allways mentions that one successor was created. His support for Dorn is only mentioned in the Black Templars background, though the newest Codex does briefly mentions his reluctance to divide his Legion.

 

- The 2nd Edition Space Wolves Codex explained in plain language that the Space Wolves were only devided once because they had allways been a small Legion. Unfortunately that passage has been removed in the current Codex (where it otherwise repeats the 2nd Edition Codex) and is instead replaced with an ominous "perhaps Leman Russ was against further dividng his Legion" as one of many possible reasons for why they were not more Successors were created in the Second Founding.

 

- The Index Astartes article about the Codex Astartes describes that most Legions were divided into up to five Chapters, but the Space Wolves specifically were divided into only two.

 

 

Based on the above background sources I just cannot agree with interpretations that the Space Wolves weren't reduced to approximately Chapter size during the Second Founding. In previous Editions the background had been more clear about it. The newer background does not exactly retcon that, but it has been made much more ambiguous. Instead we get Ragnar's Great Company of "almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors" now.

[Grimtooth]

Being divided obviously does not mean into two equal parts. The fact that you keep thinking that after the Heresy there was only just enough Space Wolves to divide them only once and create the Wolfbrothers is a false assumption.

 

With the fluff regarding the Wolfbrothers disbanding due to genetic instablity, the creation of the Wolfbrothers could have just been a small part of the Space Wolves Legion to see how it would work our before further splitting. As I have pointed out before, if the genetic instability fluff is the most accurate for the Wolfbrothers disbanding, that would mean that most of the Wolfbrothers were created from gene-seed stock since sudden instability of existing Space Wolves due to just a new unit designation is pretty far fetched.

[archangel23]

Heres my opinion on this, I don't know for sure how many Wolves are in each Great Company. What I do know is that isen't the most interesting part of the chapter. In the fluff it has been pointed out that some companys have refused to either return home or just don't come back forsaking their fealty to the Great Wolf, a slide of hand IMHO. In which case a new Great Company is raised to replace the one that is absent.

 

So givin that, and how Leman Russ refused to adhere to the Codex Astartes, it stands to reason that they may very well be even larger than the Black Templars. The Space Wolves have a distain for Imperial Rule as a whole and Russ did not want his legion broken up to make it easier to control or eleminate at the whims of the High Lords of Terra. So I believe that Grimnar is in contact with all those that left Fenris.

 

In my opinion Logan could call them in time of need if needed. Makes me wonder at least how many we are. May the Emperor have mercy on those that cross our path. lol

 

What do you guys think, and forgive me if it has been brought up already.

[spjaco]

Some companies may have just left however.

It may not have anything against the chapter, it may be their leaders differ with Grimnars way of running things.....

[Legatus]

Brother Ramses:

 

Being divided obviously does not mean into two equal parts.

Except that the main reason to divide the Legions during the Second Founding was not to get more than nine Space Marine forces, it was to limit each individual force's power. So dividing one 8K Legion into one "Chapter" of 7,000 and one Chapter of 1,000 would have been entirely pointless.

 

 

The fact that you keep thinking that after the Heresy there was only just enough Space Wolves to divide them only once and create the Wolfbrothers is a false assumption.

The 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves plainly stated that this was the reason, so I did not exactly came up with that myself. The Index Astartes article about the Codex Astartes, after having established that the Legions were divided into smaller Chapters, also states how the Space Wolves Legion had been divided into two Chapters.

 

 

---

 

archangel23:

 

In the fluff it has been pointed out that some companys have refused to either return home or just don't come back forsaking their fealty to the Great Wolf, a slide of hand IMHO. In which case a new Great Company is raised to replace the one that is absent.

In that case the "lost" Great Company is obviously no longer effectively considered to be a part of the Chapter, is it?

 

 

So givin that, and how Leman Russ refused to adhere to the Codex Astartes

The Legions were not broken up because that happened to be one of the points included in the Codex Astartes. The Legions were broken up because all Imperial forces were drastically reorganised at that time, and the power one individual would be able to hold over a Space Marines force was supposed to be more limited.

 

 

it stands to reason that they may very well be even larger than the Black Templars.

As far as I can see there is not really much support in the background sources for that.

 

 

The Space Wolves have a distain for Imperial Rule as a whole and Russ did not want his legion broken up to make it easier to control or eleminate at the whims of the High Lords of Terra. So I believe that Grimnar is in contact with all those that left Fenris.

 

In my opinion Logan could call them in time of need if needed.

I don't think I have read background supporting any of that.

[Karack Blackstone]

Legatus, it's mostly hinted at in the Fifth Ed. SW Codex is what he's getting at, but it's not very clear as to if the, "Lost Companies" were to be included or not. I don't expect they count, as the set of twelve that are based at the Fang is considered the fighting strength of the Space Wolves.

 

I think this thread is mostly over, although if the GW folks are reading this, I suspect they have gotten a good laugh out of what their vague stories can lead to. I doubt they are, to say it.

[Wysten]

What?! *blasts foam from his mouth*

Rags only had 2K Grey Hunters?!

And 1,000 blood claws a company, because we all know no one counts those poor fellows. XD

 

 

But in all seriousness, as a final thought. Hardened Warriors to me refers only to the Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard. Which leads me to the conclusion that there are roughly 180 Grey Hunters and a ever changing number of wolf guard that roughly keeps at 10% of the total number of Hunters. With Blood Claws and specialists, I would say his overall strength is somewhat around 300 at a rough stab. 250/260 without the blood claws, as they flex wildly. Though to be honest I imagine much of the support would be handled by serfs anyways. Space Wolves in spirit as though they can't function in battle after the consumtion of the gene seed, they would drive tanks and get in the thick of it with their brothers or unload them via thunderhawks. The latter is just my random musings though.

 

 

Logan probably has a somewhat larger number of everything, except blood claws which is not really included in any chapters strength. above 300 experienced vets with 20% support seems reasonable.

 

The Iron Priests, Wolf Priests and Rune Priests I can't even guess the number of, but I would imagine Iron Priests would be the most numberious due to it requiring only the will to learn machines and partly due to their immense role in every day life of maintaining the space ships, Tanks and verious equipment of the wolves. And Wolf Priests and Rune Priests being roughly even, with rune priests in a slight minority.

 

So if there are 150 priests, including recuits, then I would imagine 90 of them would be iron priests, 30 would be wolf priests and 30 Rune Priests. Though that figure is just me making up what sounds reasonable. My throughts is generally Iron Priests make up 60%, Wolf Priests at 25% since they always struck me as the guys who would naturally follow up from being lone wolves, or otherwise weathered space wolves scouts with a grim, realistic outlook on things that, rather then going lone wolf dedicated himself to protect the gene seed, seek out new blood and seek out the greatest foes with his brothers. Rune Priests roughly making up the remainder simply because the traits required to be a psycher are quite rare, though so highly valued that if we could have a infinate supply, we would have one in every battle! XD But put seriously, every Rune Priest is the cream of the crop when it comes to commanders. Rivalling the wolf lord himself except in raw combat prowess and having a saga vaster then a Space Wolf on a typical career span. They will be pretty small in compersion to the rest of the chapter or other priest hoods.

 

 

As for the other companies, they would be smaller, ranging from 100 to 150 Grey Hunters at full strength with exceptions due to number of scouts and Wolf Guard, or amount of support favoured. 150 seems the largest a space wolf Company can typically be without making Rengar numbers look less exceptional.

 

100 X 10 = 1000 + 200 (Rough 20% percentage of "support" wolves, not including blood claws/sky claws as they wildly differ. Just talking tank commanders and supporting guys here) + 250 + 300 or 500 + 150 = 1900/2100 generally.

 

150 X 10 = 1500 + 300 (Same as above) 250 + 300 or 500 (Great company + 150 = 2500/2700 At the very most.

 

Which, to me personally, makes sense until you consider the heresy fluff and where the other Wolves went. Personally, I like to think the codex is wrong and that there is about 3000/4000 wolves left after the 50/50 spilt between them and Wolf Brothers or whatever second founding was formed, but the numbers of Rengars company do little to support that. I can only guess that the 3 year war still took it's toll on the wolves and that the small starting number simply made them feel the causilties from the conflicts more. And that whatever spilting off ended up being unrecorded due to some great shame or disaster. It's not uncommon for the =][= to simply erase information at a whim and GW seem to make Space Wolves an exception to much of the spiliting of that era.

 

 

It still that while 2000/3000 with each company only being 100/150 active combat marines sounds a small number, we were not really meant to hold ground anyways, just to win the fight for the Imperial guard, winning the critical battles required to win the war and let the IG sweep them up. Thats pretty much what GW envisioned, as the SAS/Company is reletively small in compersion to the army, just they are an elite force designed to win their battles to leave the foe crippled and let the tide of the army/IG sweep up the remains though raw force.

 

 

Just the numbers are kept patchy enough to leave things to the beholders imagination, probably the same reason those lost companys exist, to try and make them bigger without actually outright saying it.

 

 

Edit: Wow, I actually made the post a lot larger then I intended to, forgive me for the wall of text. Hehehe

[Legatus]

But in all seriousness, as a final thought. Hardened Warriors to me refers only to the Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard. Which leads me to the conclusion that there are roughly 180 Grey Hunters and a ever changing number of wolf guard that roughly keeps at 10% of the total number of Hunters.

Why wouldn't you include Long Fangs and Wolf Scouts? Or maybe you meant to, since you then basically refer to "Blood Claws and specialists" as the rest?

 

 

And I reeeally wish people would stop adding specialists, priests, command staff and vehicle crews to a Chapter's assumed strenght... ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

And I reeeally wish people would stop adding specialists, priests, command staff and vehicle crews to a Chapter's assumed strenght... ;)

 

You believe that a Codex chapter only has 1K Marines, including everyone and the kitchen sink?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Anyway enough of this, lets get to the bar, first round is on me. I am sure we can even find a martini for Wilhelm. (we usually keep something for ladies)

 

Thanks :D

Hey! :eek I've been stuck on Baal, as I had to bring Kieran back from holidaying, for the Arena of Blood challenge. He was horribly burnt by all that wax they needed for his back. I hope he makes it through the Fang okay.... ;) :lol: :lol:

Being such a polite lot, the Angels offered me a local favourite. I was nervous and they did offer me a few varieties of it. I eventually decided I'd have my martini shaken, not stunned.

;)

[Wysten]

But in all seriousness, as a final thought. Hardened Warriors to me refers only to the Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard. Which leads me to the conclusion that there are roughly 180 Grey Hunters and a ever changing number of wolf guard that roughly keeps at 10% of the total number of Hunters.

Why wouldn't you include Long Fangs and Wolf Scouts? Or maybe you meant to, since you then basically refer to "Blood Claws and specialists" as the rest?

 

 

And I reeeally wish people would stop adding specialists, priests, command staff and vehicle crews to a Chapter's assumed strenght... ;)

 

Actually, I kind of forgot about them. >_>; XD

 

Scouts and Long Fangs and lone wolves I would include with Grey Hunters. They don't strike me as specialists in the same way that Drivers or Priests do. They are very much active, hardened warriors. The general force that the specialists aid or lead.

 

Command Staff here is Wolf Guard so they are included in combat strength.

 

Priests, I would definately include them as combat brothers, as they are willing to contribute in verious ways, driving and equipment maitainence, medic, gene seed recoverier and battle leader in one and a psychic enhanced tactician that leads via their unique wisdom and experiences/abilities.

 

So I only really included the vehicle crews (If they are not Iron Priests, those guys are pretty overstetched to drive every tank in every great company and preform maintance at the fang/equipment/ships, or theres a lot of them.) in specialist company strength. Though to be honest I would be much happier assuming Serfs and iron priests drove them. Just seems a waste to include a battle brother in a transport, unless they are cycled as in, either due to causilties making the pack undermanned that they are not worth fielding, crippled space wolves or whoever loses the drinking contests.

[Legatus]

And I reeeally wish people would stop adding specialists, priests, command staff and vehicle crews to a Chapter's assumed strenght... ;)

You believe that a Codex chapter only has 1K Marines, including everyone and the kitchen sink?

No, I believe that a Chapter's fighting strength is consistently throughout the past four editions of 40K measured by counting the ten squads of it's ten companies. That is what the background refers to when it speaks of "they were divided into Chapters of roughly one thousand fighting warriors". The background never implies that those thousand warriors are the only members of a Chapter, as the detailed Chapter organisation found in pretty much every generic Codex Space Marines plainly mentions several other personell that do not belong to one of those ten squads per ten companies, so the fact that a Codex Chapter has more members than that is not really a profound discovery. But a Chapter's strength is still measured by counting the squads only.

 

 

Codex Chapter: 1,000 "fighting warriors" (official Chapter strength) --- [thousandsomething??] "total members"

 

Space Wolves: X? "fighting warriors" --- Z? "total members"

 

 

What we are looking for (or should be looking for) is "X", the number of fighting warriors of the Space Wolves Chapter, as that is the number we know about Codex Chapters. Of course the Space Wolves also have Priests, Specialists and vehicle crews in addition to that, but so does every Codex Chapter. But we do not know the amount of those for Codex Chapters, so figuring in an unknown amount of them to the Space Wolves is of no use. Not only do we have no idea how many Priests, Specialists and crewmen the Space Wolves might have, the then accumulated number total Chapter members can also now NOT be compared to a Codex Chapter to see how big the Space Wolves are in comparison, as we do not know that amount for a Codex Chapter either.

 

We know X for a Codex Chapter. If we know X for the Space Wolves then we can compare the two. Z is of no real comparative value, other than being a bit of trivia.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

No, I believe that a Chapter's fighting strength is consistently throughout the past four editions of 40K measured by counting the ten squads of it's ten companies. That is what the background refers to when it speaks of "they were divided into Chapters of roughly one thousand fighting warriors". The background never implies that those thousand warriors are the only members of a Chapter, as the detailed Chapter organisation found in pretty much every generic Codex Space Marines plainly mentions several other personell that do not belong to one of those ten squads per ten companies, so the fact that a Codex Chapter has more members than that is not really a profound discovery. But a Chapter's strength is still measured by counting the squads only.

 

Codex Chapter: 1,000 "fighting warriors" (official Chapter strength) --- [thousandsomething??] "total members"

 

Space Wolves: X? "fighting warriors" --- Z? "total members"

 

What we are looking for (or should be looking for) is "X", the number of fighting warriors of the Space Wolves Chapter, as that is the number we know about Codex Chapters. Of course the Space Wolves also have Priests, Specialists and vehicle crews in addition to that, but so does every Codex Chapter. But we do not know the amount of those for Codex Chapters, so figuring in an unknown amount of them to the Space Wolves is of no use. Not only do we have no idea how many Priests, Specialists and crewmen the Space Wolves might have, the then accumulated number total Chapter members can also now NOT be compared to a Codex Chapter to see how big the Space Wolves are in comparison, as we do not know that amount for a Codex Chapter either.

 

We know X for a Codex Chapter. If we know X for the Space Wolves then we can compare the two. Z is of no real comparative value, other than being a bit of trivia.

;)

we are on the same page AND using the same system :lol:

 

That is what I was talking about on my previous post where I sight 1440 SW [as from Space Marine, the game] and then give a blow out of 1.6 [as shown by some B&Cite's signature] that Codex Chapters have.

So that would give SW some 2.3K, even 2.5K for neatness sake, but not as front-line Marines.

[Grey Mage]

.... Leman Russ himself has apparently agreed to split the Legion and adhere to the limitation in power they may feel bound by their Primarch's word to not increase their size too much.

Always wondered, since you bring this up alot in any SW discussion, if you could give some sourcing for this, because while he obviously agreed to found a second chapter Ive never once heard anything about him giving his word to cap the size or abide by any of the other restrictions brought forth with the codex astartes. Indeed, theres no real evidence that there werent significantly more than enough to found two chapters, and that the wolf brothers were anything other than a grudging test run of splitting the SWs up.

 

A test run that failed spectacularly.

[Legatus]

Always wondered, since you bring this up alot in any SW discussion, if you could give some sourcing for this, because while he obviously agreed to found a second chapter Ive never once heard anything about him giving his word to cap the size

The reason for the Second Founding was to limit the Astartes power any one individual could have. If Leman Russ agreed to split the Legion into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter but did not intend to keep them at Chapter strength in the future then he had been adhering to the letter of the law, but not it's intent, which would make him sort of a sneaky rules lawyer, something I would not really see him as. As far as I can tell he agreed to reform the Legion into Chapters, and I would expect the successors to abide by that. Space Marines forces are not limited strictly to a thousand warriors, that merely happened to have been the standard size for a "Chapter" formation, and Chapters are permitted to exceed that number in times of prolionged war. I can imagine that the Space Wolves are abusing the heck out of the leeway they are given. ("What, we can have more? I guess then we will have more.")

 

 

or abide by any of the other restrictions brought forth with the codex astartes.

As I had said before, the Legions were not split because that happened to have been one of teh points Guilliman had proposed in his Codex Astartes. The Legions were split because all the imperial armed forces were reorganised at that point, by the decree of the High Lords of Terra. Of course that legislation was also included in the Codex Astartes, like every aspect concerning Space Marines. But that is not why it was done.

 

The Space Wolves use Boltguns because they find them to be effective weapons (and because it is the best the imperium has to offer), not because "the Codex Astartes says Boltguns are effective weapons".

Just like that, the Space Wolves Legion was split into Chapters because all imperial Forces were reorganised after the events of the Heresy, not because "the Codex Astartes says that Marines have to be organised in Chapters".

 

 

Indeed, theres no real evidence that there werent significantly more than enough to found two chapters,

I would quote the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, which plainly states that the Space Wolves were only divided once because they had never been a large Legion, but I do not have it available right now. Perhaps you have a copy yourself. Then there is the 3rd Edition Index Astartes article about the Codex Astartes which describes how following the Scouring all Legions were divided into smaller formations known as Chapters, and that most Legions were divided into three to five Chapters, while the Space Wolves were divided into only two.

[Grey Mage]

Always wondered, since you bring this up alot in any SW discussion, if you could give some sourcing for this, because while he obviously agreed to found a second chapter Ive never once heard anything about him giving his word to cap the size

The reason for the Second Founding was to limit the Astartes power any one individual could have. If Leman Russ agreed to split the Legion into the Space Wolves Chapter and the Wolf Brothers Chapter but did not intend to keep them at Chapter strength in the future then he had been adhering to the letter of the law, but not it's intent, which would make him sort of a sneaky rules lawyer, something I would not really see him as. As far as I can tell he agreed to reform the Legion into Chapters, and I would expect the successors to abide by that. Space Marines forces are not limited strictly to a thousand warriors, that merely happened to have been the standard size for a "Chapter" formation, and Chapters are permitted to exceed that number in times of prolionged war. I can imagine that the Space Wolves are abusing the heck out of the leeway they are given. ("What, we can have more? I guess then we will have more.")

Your assuming that when the SWs- who obviously were no more split off themselves then the ultramarines are a second founding of the ultramarine- split off the wolf brothers that left less than 2k of them in the chapter. You are assuming that Russ agreed to split up his legion into a number of chapters without reservation, and that he split them as much as possible as soon as possible. You are also assuming that he agreed to follow the limit of ~1000 marine chapters, wich we know cannot be the case as even the most conservative estimates puts their fighting strength well above that. You are it seems, making alot of assumptions, wich is why Im asking for some sourcing here.

 

or abide by any of the other restrictions brought forth with the codex astartes.

As I had said before, the Legions were not split because that happened to have been one of teh points Guilliman had proposed in his Codex Astartes. The Legions were split because all the imperial armed forces were reorganised at that point, by the decree of the High Lords of Terra. Of course that legislation was also included in the Codex Astartes, like every aspect concerning Space Marines. But that is not why it was done.

 

The Space Wolves use Boltguns because they find them to be effective weapons (and because it is the best the imperium has to offer), not because "the Codex Astartes says Boltguns are effective weapons".

Just like that, the Space Wolves Legion was split into Chapters because all imperial Forces were reorganised after the events of the Heresy, not because "the Codex Astartes says that Marines have to be organised in Chapters".

Except the codex astartes DOES state that the legions were to be split, wich you yourself have stated for me on several occaisions. Russ' men havent been forced to follow any other peices of that document, so why this one?

 

Indeed, theres no real evidence that there werent significantly more than enough to found two chapters,

I would quote the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, which plainly states that the Space Wolves were only divided once because they had never been a large Legion, but I do not have it available right now. Perhaps you have a copy yourself. Then there is the 3rd Edition Index Astartes article about the Codex Astartes which describes how following the Scouring all Legions were divided into smaller formations known as Chapters, and that most Legions were divided into three to five Chapters, while the Space Wolves were divided into only two.

Im aware of your quote- and you are correct that they were a smaller legion, and your correct that they only split off a single second founding chapter. However, just because ice cream sales go up in july, and shark attacks go up in july, does not mean that the proliferation of ice cream to people increases the chances of shark attacks.

 

They were a smaller legion, and they showed a willingness to limit some of their power by splitting off a second founding chapter to try it out- Russ was against it, but compromising with his brother at the time. It didnt work out. Russ refuses to split his already battered chapter any further saying "look, I have only 3500 marines now, nowhere near the size of the legions that inflicted the heresy upon us. My men cannot recruit from off fenris, I wont sacrifice more good men to the instability of other worlds. Please, understand" or some such is just as likely as Russ saying "Yeah, totally, 1000 or so marines. Sounds good. Sorry to have been such a stick-in-the-mud about it."

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I think there is too much assuming done.

 

We do know the SW were split, but we do not know it was in half.

Russ could have made a gesture, with the Wolf Brothers. When that fell in a heap, he said "forget about it cuz!"

 

So Russ never really agreed to the Codex, gave it a go, it failed and he never bothered with it.

 

Seems plausible considering who he was and his contempt for being forced to split his Legion.