Great Company size

[Grimtooth]

My main point still stands, even if Russ did tuck his proverbial tail between his legs and adhere to the Codex Astartes and split his Legion right in half enough time has passed, WITHOUT creating any more successors after the Wolfbrothers, to have a much, much larger chapter then some of you propose and much larger Great Companies then some of you propose.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think there is too much assuming done.

 

We do know the SW were split, but we do not know it was in half.

Russ could have made a gesture, with the Wolf Brothers. When that fell in a heap, he said "forget about it cuz!"

 

So Russ never really agreed to the Codex, gave it a go, it failed and he never bothered with it.

 

Seems plausible considering who he was and his contempt for being forced to split his Legion.

 

thats pretty close to my personal theory.

 

Mine goes that Russ purposefully created the Wolf Brothers out of Marines that were no longer combat effective due to the Curse of the Wulfen, and when it failed went "Oh Noes!".

 

The High Lords couldnt fault him for not trying, and probably didnt press the issue to hard as the Scouring was still going on, Russ had proven himself loyal, and they needed his might of arms.

 

WLK

[Brother Tholath]

I've been watching and reading this thread for a while now and I just have a question. Excuse me if this is already answered but I couldn't find it.

 

You say that the Fighting Strength of a Codex Chapter is 1,000 marines, which doesn't include the Captains and their Command Squads and the Chapter Master and his Honour Guard. Am I correct so far?

 

Okay now for the question. Do the Wolf Guard count as the Command Squad? Because if they do then you cannot include them in the Fighting Strength of the Chapter because the Codex Chapters also don't. However I also realise that the Wolf Guard are technically our Veterans so I'm a bit confused. Any help for a Young-ling here?

 

Tholath

[Grey Mage]

I've been watching and reading this thread for a while now and I just have a question. Excuse me if this is already answered but I couldn't find it.

 

You say that the Fighting Strength of a Codex Chapter is 1,000 marines, which doesn't include the Captains and their Command Squads and the Chapter Master and his Honour Guard. Am I correct so far?

 

Okay now for the question. Do the Wolf Guard count as the Command Squad? Because if they do then you cannot include them in the Fighting Strength of the Chapter because the Codex Chapters also don't. However I also realise that the Wolf Guard are technically our Veterans so I'm a bit confused. Any help for a Young-ling here?

 

Tholath

Most people would consider the WG to take the place of the veterans= ie the first company, and thus included in the fighting strength.

 

Again, this just shows the sheer nonsense of the 1,000 marine myth.

[Chodjinn]

Despite the fact I have already made my point clear, that this is an impossible question to answer, most people are ignoring the obvious, very much like Internet Conspiracy theorists they're only reading/understanding what they want to.

 

 

After reading this thread there are several summary points that seem, to me, obvious;

 

 

Space Wolves are a non-codex chaper, and any comparison to any other chapter is useless, so don't waste time doing it.

 

 

The 13th Company are long gone, and are unlikely to come back, so don't count them. As are the Lost Companies.

 

 

What people are generally ignoring is that on three occassions since the Heresy, all but ONE COMPANY have been completely wiped out, therefore essentially 'rebooting' the whole chapter, starting from a single company. Hence reference to any pre-heresy/post-heresy numbers is completely irrelevant. That's important! So no talk of Wolf Brothers, and various Foundings. These almost complete extermination of the entire chapter is a break from everything previous.

 

 

We have references for the approx. size of the (currently in active 40k fluff) two largest Companies out of the twelve, these are Logan Grimnar's and Ragnar's companies, both of which are circa 200 'combat' marines. From this, you can extrapolate that the current maximum number for all twelve companies is 12 x 200 = 2400 MAX, plus Priests/Dreads/Transport etc.

 

 

It's not rocket science is it lads?

[Legatus]

Grey Mage:

 

Your assuming that when the SWs- who obviously were no more split off themselves then the ultramarines are a second founding of the ultramarine- split off the wolf brothers that left less than 2k of them in the chapter.

Because I have a background source that states (I am paraphrasing since I do not have it at the moment) that "The Space Wolves were never a large Legion, so they were only divided once", and another background source that states "most Legions were divided into up to five of these new Chapters, but the Space Wolves were divided into two". I find it difficult to take away from that that the Space Wolves didn't reorganize into two more limited Chapters during the Second Founding.

 

 

You are assuming that Russ agreed to split up his legion into a number of chapters without reservation, and that he split them as much as possible as soon as possible.

According to the Black Templars background Russ had some reservations. But after Dorn had relented, Leman Russ' reservations are not really touched upon again.

 

 

You are also assuming that he agreed to follow the limit of ~1000 marine chapters, wich we know cannot be the case as even the most conservative estimates puts their fighting strength well above that.

As I have said, there is some leeway, and by my personal assumprion the Space Wolves Chapter is a quite oversized one with about 1600 to 1800 warriors. I am assuming that this is about the maximum a single Chapter can have, as not much more than that and the Marines could easily be divided between two separate Chapters. I am assuming that russ agreed to adhere to the "somwhere around 1,000 warriors" limitation because that had been what the entire reorganisation had been about, and from what I can take from the background the Space Wolves did reorganise into two "Chapters". (I am also, of course, assuming that when the background speaks of the Space Wolves reorganising into a "Chapter", it then does not mean "Legion with 1,000 fewer warriors".)

 

 

Except the codex astartes DOES state that the legions were to be split, wich you yourself have stated for me on several occaisions. Russ' men havent been forced to follow any other peices of that document, so why this one?

Because, as I have said, the Legions were not split because that happened to be one of the points in the Codex Astartes, The Legions were split because that had been decreed by the High Lords of terra at that time. All imperial forces were reorganised, including the Legiones Astartes.

 

That decree was also included in the Codex Astartes, since the Codex Astartes was supposed to include every aspect of Space Marines. But that was not the motivation for the Legions to do it. Not because it was an article in the Codex, but because it had been officially and universally decreed at that time.

 

As I was trying to point out with my example, the Space Wolves are probably doing a lot of things Codex Marines do. But the Space Wolves just don't do that because the Codex says so, they do it because of other reasons.

 

 

They were a smaller legion, and they showed a willingness to limit some of their power by splitting off a second founding chapter to try it out- Russ was against it, but compromising with his brother at the time.

I don't think the conflict between Guilliman and Dorn was about that Guilliman demanded that every Legion should at least give it a try. I also have the two sources speaking of the creation of two Chapters and a reason for why it had only been two Chapters. What I do not have are sources that speak of compromises in the limitation of Space Marine power.

 

 

Russ refuses to split his already battered chapter any further

That is what the new, more ambiguous fluff, gives us as one possible reason for why the Space Wolves did not produce more successor Chapters, among others such as the High Lords not thinking that it would work. The 2nd Edition background was not as ambigous, and instead plainly gave us the reason.

 

 

Most people would consider the WG to take the place of the veterans= ie the first company, and thus included in the fighting strength.

 

Again, this just shows the sheer nonsense of the 1,000 marine myth.

I too would agree that the Wolf Guard should be considered the Veterans of the Space Wolves Chapter. They already had Wolf Guard in 2nd Edition, where there were no command squads yet.

 

However, I do not think there ever was a "1,000 Marine myth". The background was never really ambiguous about it. It initially refers to how "each Chapter has about 1,000 fighting warriors" but then goes on to explain specifically what personell a Company or the Chapter HQ contain. At least that was how it had been described in the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines (and in the Index Astartes about the Codex Astartes, and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, and IIRC in the 4th Edition Codex as well). Only someone who hadn't really read the description of a Chapter organisation might have believed that a Chapter consists of only 1,000 Marines. To everyone else it had allways been known that a Chapter contains more personell than those 1,000 fighting warriors.

 

 

---

 

Chodjinn:

 

We have references for the approx. size of the (currently in active 40k fluff) two largest Companies out of the twelve, these are Logan Grimnar's and Ragnar's companies, both of which are circa 200 'combat' marines. From this, you can extrapolate that the current maximum number for all twelve companies is 12 x 200 = 2400 MAX, plus Priests/Dreads/Transport etc.

 

 

It's not rocket science is it lads?

Very reasonable. Though personally I assume the average Great Company size is below 200.

[Chodjinn]

Right, so we're sorted then.

 

Thread closed until further information released by GW?

[Chodjinn]

Right, so we're sorted then.

 

Thread closed until further information released by GW?

[Chris Wraight]

Guys,

 

I've been following this with interest, since I'm writing a SW novel set in M32 at the moment and have tried to make as much sense of the numbers issue as I can. After conversations with various GW/BL people, this is the understanding I've got of the issue.

 

- During the Heresy the Space Wolves were a small Legion. AFAIK there's no definitive statement of numbers, but 8,000 has been floated around, and seems like a reasonable estimate to me.

 

- We have no idea what the SW's numbers were after the Heresy and the Great Scouring, as this part of galactic history has yet to be written in detail. However, it's reasonable to assume the SWs took heavy losses - Prospero was fiercely contested, and the Scouring was no picnic either. The Wolves are an all-or-nothing Legion, and their zeal for combat would have put them in the heart of some savage fighting.

 

- So when the fluff states that the Space Wolves only had one successor Chapter due to low numbers, that sounds perfectly plausible to me. I don't think we need to introduce the idea of a 'cull' of Marines to make it work. Remember that Russ never had a lot of time for the detail of the Codex, so the Wolf Brothers numbers could have been anything from 1,000 marines to much more than that.

 

- As others have stated earlier in the thread, it's most likely that the 40K SWs are bigger than the average Chapter, but not massively so. Any estimate of 1,500 up to about 2,500 strikes me as plausible. Individual Companies would range from less than a hundred to over 200. The variation is due to high fatality rates (they're always fighting somewhere), the reputation of respective Wolf Lords, and the Wolves' lack of concern for Codex requirements. All Marine Chapters will vary in numbers over time; the SWs just do it more than most others.

 

- There will be some 'extras' on top of this, notably the Thirteenth Great Company and any Lone Wolves, etc., who've left the Fang and operate autonomously.

 

- Finally, bear in mind also that the Space Wolves Chapter is more than just astartes. Their ships, gun platforms, comms, etc. are also crewed by mortal thralls - lots of them - and the average Fenrisian is a lot tougher than the average human.

 

That's my take on it, anyway. Not intended to be definitive, nor to shut down discussion - the fluff is vague on this issue, and there's room for different points of view - but offered up in case anyone finds it interesting.

 

Cheers,

Chris

[Valerian]

Being divided obviously does not mean into two equal parts. The fact that you keep thinking that after the Heresy there was only just enough Space Wolves to divide them only once and create the Wolfbrothers is a false assumption.

 

With the fluff regarding the Wolfbrothers disbanding due to genetic instablity, the creation of the Wolfbrothers could have just been a small part of the Space Wolves Legion to see how it would work our before further splitting. As I have pointed out before, if the genetic instability fluff is the most accurate for the Wolfbrothers disbanding, that would mean that most of the Wolfbrothers were created from gene-seed stock since sudden instability of existing Space Wolves due to just a new unit designation is pretty far fetched.

 

Brother Ramses,

 

Can you provide quotes for any fluff that actually says that the Wolfbrothers were disbanded due to genetic instability? People keep mentioning this, but in 18 years of playing Space Wolves I have never seen anything written by GW that states this.

 

Thanks,

 

V

[Legatus]

Chris Wraight: All very reasonable, and I would tend to agree with pretty much all of that, though I am usually very conservative with my estimates for Great Company sizes. I also tend to believe that once a group of Wolves is lost, it is lost. Other Chapters may have Companies that go MIA, either due to being lost in the warp or simply being anihilated without anyone witnessing it. The Space Wolves companies just have a lot more independence, so it apparently happens a lot more often.

 

 

Valerian: IIRC genetic problems are indeed mentioned in relation to the Wolf Brothers, but that is perhaps not the reason for their disappearance.

[Valerian]

Valerian: IIRC genetic problems are indeed mentioned in relation to the Wolf Brothers, but that is perhaps not the reason for their disappearance.

 

Legatus,

 

That is my point though, are genetic problems ever mentioned in relation to the Wolf Brothers? If so, what are the sources? I've never read anything that says they have any more problems with the genetic material than the rest of the Space Wolves. People make the claim all of the time, but where is it written?

 

I brought every source I could think of in to work with me this afternoon, and I'm going to root through them to see what I can find. I brought all 3 codices for the Space Wolves (2nd, 3rd, and 5th). I also brought about 15 White Dwarf magazines, including the ones that were published along with the release of the 3rd and 5th Edition codices, and the ones with the Index Astartes articles. I'll see what I can find as I have free time this afternoon.

 

p.s. When we get together to have those Ales at the Fang, you are welcome to join my table Brother Legatus, as an honoured guest of the Wolves.

 

Valerian

[Grey Mage]

If you have it check out the IA on the 13nth co... thats where I remember reading it, but as I dont have a copy I cant confirm that myself.

[Legatus]

I think the main source will probably be the passage in the 5th Edition Space Wolves Codex on page 9. That passage had been taken from the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, but I am not sure what page it is in there. Im am also not sure whether the 3rd Edition Codex had any information on the issue.

 

"The Space Wolves were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen."

 

That doesn't excplicitely state that it was the Wolf Brothers who had terrible genetic issues, but it does seem to imply that successors with Space Wolves gene-seed (of which they happened to be the only example) were seen as not viable. Or at least it is proposed as one possible reason for why there had never been more Successors created (in the Second or even later Foundings). Perhaps, much like with the Flesh Tearers, a successor Chapter that is not using the exact methods or environment of the progenitor Chapter can not neccessarily be trusted to keep the genetic issues of it's progenitor's gene-seed in check. I.e. similar to how the Blood Angels get by with their flaw, being able to maintain full strength and hide the curse from superficial observation, but for the Flesh Tearers it has become a problem they are not able to handle which has now strongly decimated the Chapter and will probably wipe it out within the next few hundred years*, the Space Wolves have managed to deal with the curse of the Wulfen and keep it to a manageable few instances, but the Wolf Brothers may have had more trouble with it.

 

*There are of course other Blood Angels successors that do not have such probelms. One successor even appears to have successfully removed the flaw.

 

Still, that fluff does not say that the Wolf Brothers were disbanded due to genetic problems. IIRC the Index Astartes article about the 13th Comapny Grey Mage mentioned has a short saga that describes how the Wolf Brothers vanished by following some Xenos into a warp portal.

 

 

P.s.: The hospitality is much appreciated, and also a little surprising, seeing how I am once again the one stubbornly arguing against a mighty and unchecked modern day Space Wolves Legion. ;) Butthen I would not be surprised if there are Space Wolves players that have reached teh same conclusions as I have. (And also, I myself am sort of a Space Wolves player since 2nd Edition, even if I usually spend more time with other Chapters.)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Chris Wraight: Just a quick question, if you dont mind? If we are going with just 8,000 Wolves for the entire Legion, is GW pushing the 10,000 strong Legions or the 100,000 strong Legions?

I only ask as certain books have contradicted each other on the numbers of a Legion.

 

WLK

[Valerian]

I think the main source will probably be the passage in the 5th Edition Space Wolves Codex on page 9. That passage had been taken from the 2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, but I am not sure what page it is in there. Im am also not sure whether the 3rd Edition Codex had any information on the issue.

 

"The Space Wolves were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen."

 

That doesn't excplicitely state that it was the Wolf Brothers who had terrible genetic issues, but it does seem to imply that successors with Space Wolves gene-seed (of which they happened to be the only example) were seen as not viable. Or at least it is proposed as one possible reason for why there had never been more Successors created (in the Second or even later Foundings).

 

That is the quote that is usually brought up, but as you noted, the quote doesn't say that the Wolfbrothers themselves were victims of genetic instability any moreso than the Space Wolves. It certainly doesn't indicate that things were so bad for the Wolfbrothers that they needed to be disbanded. Additionally, it might not even be the reason that the Space Wolves were divided only once in the first place, but it is given as only one possibility (with the two others given that a) Russ didn't want it to happen more than once, or b) that the Legion wasn't big enough to support more second founding Chapters to begin with.)

 

This brings me back to the original question - where is the fluff that states that the Wolfbrothers were disbanded due to genetic instability? Where is the fluff that says they were more unstable (genetically), than their founding Chapter/Legion the Space Wolves themselves?

 

P.s.: The hospitality is much appreciated, and also a little surprising, seeing how I am once again the one stubbornly arguing against a mighty and unchecked modern day Space Wolves Legion. ;) Butthen I would not be surprised if there are Space Wolves players that have reached teh same conclusions as I have. (And also, I myself am sort of a Space Wolves player since 2nd Edition, even if I usually spend more time with other Chapters.)

 

I see no need to try and make the Space Wolves any more than what they are. They are already one of my two favorite Chapters (with the other being the Grey Knights). They are already as bad-ass as they need to be, and are already "cool" for being stubborn/obstinate in refusing to accept Guilliaman's ineffective Codex Astartes. They already have more Marines at their disposal than almost any other Chapter (Black Templar for sure have more, and Grey Knights maybe have more), and are in the top 3 out of 1000 for the most powerful fighting forces in the Imperium. I simply don't feel any impetus to try to make them more than what they are.

 

At this point, I am going to do some research, gather the relevant sources, and put something up on my blog here on the B&C. Once I've got things put together, I'll provide a link, and then ask for feedback, additional sources, and get input from the Rune Priests and Librarius.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Grey Mage]

P.s.: The hospitality is much appreciated, and also a little surprising, seeing how I am once again the one stubbornly arguing against a mighty and unchecked modern day Space Wolves Legion. ;) Butthen I would not be surprised if there are Space Wolves players that have reached teh same conclusions as I have. (And also, I myself am sort of a Space Wolves player since 2nd Edition, even if I usually spend more time with other Chapters.)

Hey, I disagree with your opinions on this one, but really thats all either of us has- opinions. Your as entitled to yours as I am to mine eh?

 

And while you might not always be impeccably polite, you certainly have been this time around, and I do appreciate it that people occasionally step in from outside to keep us honest.

 

Since Valerian is buying the drinks Ill pass the roast.

[Legatus]

Wolf Lord Kieran:

 

If we are going with just 8,000 Wolves for the entire Legion, is GW pushing the 10,000 strong Legions or the 100,000 strong Legions?

As with all the other Legions, the numbers of Second Founding Chapters are much harder to explain if you assume that the Legions had once been 100,000 warriors strong. And IIRC the Codex Space Wolves itself mentions at some point that previously a Legion could be "ten thousand or more" in size.

 

 

Valerian:

 

They are already as bad-ass as they need to be, and are already "cool" for being stubborn/obstinate in refusing to accept Guilliaman's ineffective Codex Astartes.

I will let that one slide since we are getting along so well right now. ;) But you are of course correct that there does not need to be 10,000 Space Wolves for them to kick a lot of ass.

[Karack Blackstone]

*Gets his ale from the barkeep, Hrigul Plasmadeath (I made that up, who's the barkeep around here?)*

 

Now then, about all this banter. I say we reflect on our vows to serve the Emperor as the reason we're all here today. Once that's done, we have a right mighty... Wait, there's outsiders around. They'd likely misinterpret... (Us and our brawls)

 

As to this lot of an argument, without really clear fluff stating numbers, GW left it vague on purpose. They intend to see us have these kinds of problems sorting out who's numbers fall where. I stand by my claim that 108 is the fighting strength of the Codex 3rd Ultramarines Company, and that that number does NOT include the rest of the possible people that can be attached. 972 + Scouts, Chaps, Libs, more Dreads, etc. means it's still up in the air even for the Codex Marine numbers.

 

This disagreement isn't going anywhere, so I'd like to add as I go quiet with my ale that I think the thing isn't going to be resolved bar GW basically closing down WH40K, or as part of its closing statements on the subject.

[Grey Mage]

The Barkeep is retired- its currently self service, with an auto-tab system.

 

One day perhaps Deptcharge will come back to being a bartender, or one of the other mods will decide to reopen the bar+grill.

[Karack Blackstone]

Fair enough. I rather liked my Long Fang name I made up, but this works too.

 

*Drinks*

[Grey Mage]

Hey, if he wants to pass them out *Signals to plasmadeath*....

[Karack Blackstone]

*Hrigul Plasmadeath begins preparing and passing around drinks per and to request, his Plasma Gun waiting on his hip ready to be hot charged on a moment's notice.*

 

"Place yer orders, lads and guests. The box for payment be there." *Hrigul points out the box on the bartop.*

 

*I can't post much longer, take this as an RP Que to just order up something. I assume we have currency, gelt, or whatever it happens to be.*

 

*Edit: Note, if payment be an issue for you (in terms of RP) I think it safe to assume we can keep a tab for anyone that feels as such.

Grey Mage, feel free to edit/drop parts of this post you feel will make this work better for all involved. I likely won't see the post again until to tomorrow morning Pac US Time.*

[Chris Wraight]

If we are going with just 8,000 Wolves for the entire Legion, is GW pushing the 10,000 strong Legions or the 100,000 strong Legions?

I only ask as certain books have contradicted each other on the numbers of a Legion.

 

8,000 was only a 'reasonable estimate' - it shouldn't be taken to heart, as, to the best of my knowledge, there's no published figure on pre-Heresy Space Wolves numbers.

 

As far as the 10K/100K thing goes, it should be pretty obvious which I think makes most sense, but I'm not one of the Heresy authors and they're the ones who sit in the meetings and hammer this stuff out. I think ADB's posted on this - his view (or one of the other Heresy guys) would be the one to listen to.

[Legatus]

IIRC A D-B has mentioned that he had brought the issue of Legion sizes up in one BL meeting, and there seemed to have been a consensus that a few of the numbers in the Horus Heresy series had been too high. But with his new "First Heretic" novel he has settled on the 100,000 per Legion, it seems.