Great Company size

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

If we are going with just 8,000 Wolves for the entire Legion, is GW pushing the 10,000 strong Legions or the 100,000 strong Legions?

I only ask as certain books have contradicted each other on the numbers of a Legion.

 

8,000 was only a 'reasonable estimate' - it shouldn't be taken to heart, as, to the best of my knowledge, there's no published figure on pre-Heresy Space Wolves numbers.

 

As far as the 10K/100K thing goes, it should be pretty obvious which I think makes most sense, but I'm not one of the Heresy authors and they're the ones who sit in the meetings and hammer this stuff out. I think ADB's posted on this - his view (or one of the other Heresy guys) would be the one to listen to.

 

I just wanted to hear it in black and white, cause if somebody can step up and give a definitive number to us fanboys it woudl do wonders.

 

and yea, i read of ADB's view of it (which was a while ago, but i believe he pulled for the 10,000 legions), but then apparently he contradicts it with the numbers of Word Bearers's in the First Heretic. (page 5 of the extract)

 

WLK

[Grimtooth]

See post #31 Valerian for source of Wolfbrothers genetic stability where I was asking where you got your information from.

 

My last post on this subject.

 

Even if I were to concede the point that at the time of the 2nd Founding the Space Wolves only numbered just enough to split once, estimated 1250 Space Wolves and 1250 Wolfbrothers, please explain what has happened since the 2nd Founding that has kept the Space Wolves at 1.5-2.5k Space Wolves? The rest of the loyalist founding chapters are responsible for creating approximately 992 chapters via successors and subsequent foundings and yet the rebellious, Codex Astartes hating Sons of Russ can only come up with an additional 1-1.5k more Space Wolves. Where have all the Space Wolves gone then?

[Legatus]

Even if I were to concede the point that at the time of the 2nd Founding the Space Wolves only numbered just enough to split once, estimated 1250 Space Wolves and 1250 Wolfbrothers, please explain what has happened since the 2nd Founding that has kept the Space Wolves at 1.5-2.5k Space Wolves? The rest of the loyalist founding chapters are responsible for creating approximately 992 chapters via successors and subsequent foundings and yet the rebellious, Codex Astartes hating Sons of Russ can only come up with an additional 1-1.5k more Space Wolves. Where have all the Space Wolves gone then?

I assume, as I have probably mentioned already, that the Space Wolves did not recruit the past 10,000 years with the goal to grow and keep growing, but instead to more or less stay at the fighting strength of the Chapter that had been formed during the Second Founding. That's how other Chapters recruit anyway.

[Valerian]

See post #31 Valerian for source of Wolfbrothers genetic stability where I was asking where you got your information from.

 

My last post on this subject.

 

Ah, okay, thanks Brother Ramses. I think I've got the US version of that one, so I'll check it out and compare to other sources.

 

Here are two that are interesting and relevant:

 

1. From US White Dwarf 246 (July 2000)

 

Wolves of Fenris

Codicium Imperialis. Volume VI, part I of the Liber Honorus

 

"The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter."

 

- Scribe Jervis Johnson, 000.M2

 

This is important as Jervis Johnson himself gives an explicit reason for why the Space Wolves didn't make more successor Chapters. Instead of the two other possible reasons given in the 2nd and 5th Edition codices (genetic instability or Leman Russ didn't want to), here he states it as a fact.

 

2. From US White Dwarf 245 (June 2000)

 

Lone Wolves

Evidence concerning the existence of the so-called Space Wolves 'lost companies'. This report compiled by the Emperor's most humble servant, scribe Chambers, M41.

 

"As is well-known, after the Horus Heresy the great Space Marine Legions of that time were broken up into the smaller Chapters of today. In this way no single Chapter Master controlled the terrible power of an entire legion. However, despite this and the great size attributed to the Space Wolves Legion during the Crusades (Dionerius stated that the Space Wolves "stood 10,000 strong at the gates of Thranx") no successor Chapters are listed for the Space Wolves."

 

- Inquisitor Asmorales Harkenforth

 

This is important as Andy Chambers puts the size of the Space Wolves at 10,000 strong during the Great Crusade. Subtract for losses during the Assault on Prospero, during other battles of the Horus Heresy, during the Great Scouring after the Siege of Terra was broken, the loss of the 13th Great Company into the Eye of Terror, the separation of enough Space Wolves to form the Wolfbrothers Chapter during the 2nd Founding, and we probably have just the right amount to get us to the 2,000+ Space Marines that we see today, if you go with the more conservative estimates given by Legatus, myself, and the others. This number also jives well with what the current 5th Edition codex implies, if you take the passage about Ragnar's Great Company at face value, and call it the second largest, and tally it at almost 200 warriors.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Grey Mage]

*scratches head* It says the stood 10k strong at one battle. Was that the whole legion? If so why does it say they attributed great size when other sources say they were one of the smaller legions?

 

Perhaps this is based on the 100k legions? If so then 10k would be merely a large strike force?

 

As usual this only adds to my questions.

[Valerian]

*scratches head* It says the stood 10k strong at one battle. Was that the whole legion?

 

I believe from the context given in that paragraph (and other paragraphs in that passage) that the 10,000 strong was supposed to be the whole Legion.

 

If so why does it say they attributed great size when other sources say they were one of the smaller legions?

 

I don't think there is a conflict here - the Space Wolves were one of the smaller Legions (at about 10,000 strong), but this is still a "great size", especially when compared to the size of standard Chapters of M41, and even, indeed, the current (much smaller) size of the Chapter.

 

Perhaps this is based on the 100k legions? If so then 10k would be merely a large strike force?

 

No, I don't think this is based on the 100k+ sized Legions, as I believe those numbers only exist in Black Library fluff. I'd say instead that the other Legions, which were mostly larger than the Space Wolves, wouldn't be whole orders of magnitude larger, but would range between 15,000 up to as much as 25,000. I think I've seen that number thrown around for the size of the Ultramarines at one point (which is why/how they got to produce so many 2nd founding Chapters).

 

Edited to add:

 

From the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines:

 

"The Space Marines who took part in the Great Crusade were organized into massive armies called Legions. The size of a Legion varied tremendously and could be expanded to provide extra troops as needed. Accelerated gene-seed germination techniques were developed that could turn a human into a Space Marine within a year. At the time, tens of thousands of troops were needed so the Space Marine Legions could push forwards over a widening battle front. Only later would the stability of this accelerated gene-seed prove doubtful when the dangers of its use became apparent."

 

The Ultramarines had at least enough Space Marines left after the Heresy to create 23 fulll 2nd Founding successor Chapters (the names of 12 are still known), while the Space Wolves only made 1, (although theirs would all follow the Codex Astartes standard, while ours, the Wolf Brothers, would probably mirror our larger size).

 

V

[Grimtooth]

They keep pulling me back in!!! :P

 

Valerian, both you and Legatus are under the assumption that once the Space Wolves were set at Codex Astartes chapter size 10000yrs ago, they decided to adhere to it like good little vanilla Space Marines.

 

The Space Wolves chapter, to this day, shuns the Codex Astartes in all it's form. That is prevalent now and from reading the fluff, since Russ. Yet you and Legatus assume that 10000yrs ago, the Space Wolves decided to just go ahead and cower down to Guilliman and concede. I have a bridge in California for sale if you are interested.

 

Grey Mage, I made a point earlier that fluff does say that the Emperor created the Space Marine Legions 10000 strong. Once the Primarchs were found though, the recruitment then came from their homeworlds/home systems, not from Terra. So while the Space Wolves soley recruiting from Fenris could have knocked their Legion numbers up to 15k, in comparison to the Ultramarines recruiting from an entire system and bumping up their Legion numbers to 25k or higher, 15k would have been one of the smaller Legions.

[Valerian]

They keep pulling me back in!!! :lol:

 

Valerian, both you and Legatus are under the assumption that once the Space Wolves were set at Codex Astartes chapter size 10000yrs ago, they decided to adhere to it like good little vanilla Space Marines.

 

The Space Wolves chapter, to this day, shuns the Codex Astartes in all it's form. That is prevalent now and from reading the fluff, since Russ. Yet you and Legatus assume that 10000yrs ago, the Space Wolves decided to just go ahead and cower down to Guilliman and concede. I have a bridge in California for sale if you are interested.

 

BR,

 

Well, it is a fluff discussion, so you have to go with what is provided, those are the "facts". Sometimes, to answer the question you have to make some "assumptions", but when you do, they should be reasonable, necessary, and based on known facts. Legatus and I have provided some of the relevant facts that help answer the question. Certainl we make some assumptions as well, but they are always reasonable and do not depart from the information that is provided.

 

Your position, on the other hand, is based only on wishful thinking and assumptions founded in what might be possible, rather than what is probable. Where are your facts? Are they relevant? Do they help us answer the question? You seem to have convinced yourself, but have you argued the position strongly enough to convince your readers.

 

Just look at your last argument, the gist of it was "the Space Wolves don't follow the Codex Astartes (fact), so they probably grew really big over the last 10,000 years just because (assumption with no basis).

 

V

[Grimtooth]

Actually no.

 

I showed you the growth rate of all the other Loyalist Legions and pointed out what the Space Wolves were capable of doing. That is fact.

 

I pointed out the original comparison of the SW Great Companies to SM Chapters. That is a fact.

 

Despite all the back and forth between what size the SW were when they split, the original size of the Legion, all you and Legatus have come up with was that the Space Wolves decided to never grow because that is what the Codex Astartes says.

 

The Space Wolves do not follow the Codex Astartes, so how can you assume they would follow it on that aspect? Out of everything to pick, the Space Wolves are going to be sticklers on size, when that is one of the issues pointed out in the fluff that Russ did not like?

 

I really think Prospero Burns will answer pretty much all of these questions. If the little snippet from Dan Abnett about the SW being designed by the Emperor to take down another Legion, then it is wholly possible their numbers would reflect that requirement.

[Valerian]

From US White Dwarf 246:

 

Chapter Organization

 

 

The Space Wolves are organized in a very different manner to most other Space Marine Chapters. The Chapter dates from the First Founding and its structure owes more to the personality of Leman Russ than it does to the Codex Astartes. It also reflects the preferred fighting style and social organization of the native Fenrisians.

 

The Space Wolves Chapter is made up of a dozen Great Companies, all of whom owe allegiance to the Chapter's commander, the Great Wolf. Space Wolf Great Companies are rather larger than the companies found in other Space Marine Chapters and are much more self-sufficient.

 

You can parse this statement as well, but to me "rather larger" does not equate to "ten times larger". Our estimates of 140 to 240 (with Ragnar's being just under 200), would probably meet the "rather larger than companies found in other Space Marine Chapters" descriptor.

 

I agree with you whole heartedly that there is no known constraint to the size of the Wolves, as they dont intentionally follow the size restriction of the Codex Astartes. However, without any fluff to point you in that direction, you can't just assume they have grown just because it is possible. There is fluff that says the Wolves have participated in more battles and campaigns than any other Chapter, so perhaps the more appropriate assumption to make is that we've been shrinking over the past 10,000 years.

 

V

[Legatus]

Valerian, both you and Legatus are under the assumption that once the Space Wolves were set at Codex Astartes chapter size 10000yrs ago, they decided to adhere to it like good little vanilla Space Marines.

 

The Space Wolves chapter, to this day, shuns the Codex Astartes in all it's form. That is prevalent now and from reading the fluff, since Russ. Yet you and Legatus assume that 10000yrs ago, the Space Wolves decided to just go ahead and cower down to Guilliman and concede.

The Space Wolves may not be interrested in the words of the Codex Astartes, but as I said, they did not divide the Legion because that happened to be written in the Codex Astartes. And we know that they did divide the Legions at least once. And agreeing to divide the Legion, even if grudgingly so, but then growing the newly created Chapter back to Legion strength would be pretty dishonest and going back on Russ' word. And I do not think that Russ or any of the Great Wolfs true to his spirit would do that, even if they are missing the days of the old Legion. The Codex Astartes or a written contract may just be pieces of paper for a Space Wolves, but their word or an oath mean much to them.

[Void Master]

If I may draw your attention to something that will end the argument about size rather quickly (I don't have time to read all 8 pages - made it till 4 the other day but then gave up, so apologies if this has already been pointed out). But if you go to page 39, 3rd paragraph in the wolf lord entry, you will find that it basically says that each wolf lord leads a great company of over a hundred men. Now, of course you can argue that six-thousand-and-eleventy-five is also over a hundred, but I think that it's quite clear what that means. The average great company seems to be, including support such as tank crews etc., around about 150 men at best (with the occasional exceptions such as Ragnar's company).

[Grey Mage]

The average great company seems to be, including support such as tank crews etc., around about 150 men at best (with the occasional exceptions such as Ragnar's company).

I disagree, for all the reasons listed in this thread- 150 men would be the lower end of average fighting strength- ie not including supporting tank crews, priests, TH pilots, etc. Meaning, including attached priests and dreads, were probly looking at around 220 for the 'normal' GC of 180ish GH/BC/LF/WG/WL in total.

 

When combined with some of the numbers in William Kings books it just seems like being under 100 warriors means either 1) you just came back from the fight of your life or 2) Something is horribly wrong with your command.

[Valerian]

The average great company seems to be, including support such as tank crews etc., around about 150 men at best (with the occasional exceptions such as Ragnar's company).

I disagree, for all the reasons listed in this thread- 150 men would be the lower end of average fighting strength- ie not including supporting tank crews, priests, TH pilots, etc. Meaning, including attached priests and dreads, were probly looking at around 220 for the 'normal' GC of 180ish GH/BC/LF/WG/WL in total.

 

When combined with some of the numbers in William Kings books it just seems like being under 100 warriors means either 1) you just came back from the fight of your life or 2) Something is horribly wrong with your command.

 

But at least we should all be in the same "zone" now, with good rough estimates of how many folks are in a Great Company. I should imagine that the quote Void found (how did we all miss that one?) has pull the last nail in the coffin of the Chapter-sized conjecture.

 

V

[Captain Idaho]

I think it is important to review the quote here from various Codex Space Wolves editions and other numerous quotes we have seen throughout this thread:

 

The Space Wolves are organized in a very different manner to most other Space Marine Chapters. The Chapter dates from the First Founding and its structure owes more to the personality of Leman Russ than it does to the Codex Astartes. It also reflects the preferred fighting style and social organization of the native Fenrisians.

 

The Space Wolves Chapter is made up of a dozen Great Companies, all of whom owe allegiance to the Chapter's commander, the Great Wolf. Space Wolf Great Companies are rather larger than the companies found in other Space Marine Chapters and are much more self-sufficient.

 

It still refers to the Space Wolves Chapter dating back from the First Founding. It does not, in any shape or form, talk about the Space Wolves Legion.

 

This brings up a very important fact that has been overlooked in this discussion; if the Space Wolves were still organised the same way they were before the break up of the Legions, numerically as wells a logistically, then why are they not called a Legion still? If they refused to break up their Legion, why did they change the name? Russ and his Wolves are honest and straightforward, so I doubt they would conceal their numbers (or even if they could) as that is not very honourable and doesn’t fit Russ’ character (he is not a liar!).

 

The logical conclusion from this is thus; the Space Wolves have been reorganised into a Chapter, this is obvious from the title of the Space Wolves Chapter! Since they are a Chapter, that means they are different to a Legion. Logically speaking, being called a Chapter means they fall into the criteria of what a Chapter is thus must have at least had some acquiescence to the Codex Astartes. They cannot be so far removed from Chapter strength to be considered not to be a Chapter.

 

Don’t forget everyone, that a Chapter is allowed to go over the usual size limit set by the Codex Astartes in times of war, so the Space Wolves, being an entirely active Chapter, are a forgivable compromise to the fledgling Imperium, as their numbers are not so great that they would eclipse other Astartes Chapters, even if they are slightly above tolerable levels.

 

Look at the Black Templars; nominally they are greater in strength than any other Chapter, but are spread across such a wide area that their numbers are rarely, if ever, Chapter strength in any one particular area of the Imperium. Like the Space Wolves who can and do amass as a Chapter, they are an acceptable compromise for the Imperium to get Dorn and his sons on board with the new organisations.

 

Also, we know the Legion were divided into the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers. There is no fluff to support that the Wolf Brothers were created as a token gesture, nor created to be adherent to the Codex Astartes size limitations but the Space Wolves are not. To conclude otherwise is assumption.

 

And like I said earlier, if you think the Space Wolves are the same size as the Black Templars then that means you think they are weaker than them, since the Black Templar fluff states without question that no force within the Imperium could defeat them if they were amassed in one place! :huh:

[Grey Mage]

But at least we should all be in the same "zone" now, with good rough estimates of how many folks are in a Great Company. I should imagine that the quote Void found (how did we all miss that one?) has pull the last nail in the coffin of the Chapter-sized conjecture.

 

V

Oh certainly, but then most of us have agreed from the begining that 1000 strong GCs was sillyness.

 

Even if it does spring up once or twice a year....

[Grimtooth]

From the Codex there is a reference in the 1st War for Armageddon that had 100 Grey Hunters lining the bank of a river to open fire on advancing World Eaters. Now this is after Logan already advanced far into enemy territory with an armored assault. How many Great Companies were present at the 1st War for Armageddon that 100 Grey Hunters on a river bank is not even the whole force present.

[Karack Blackstone]

People like nice, round numbers. Sixty isn't quite as clean as seeing 100. I figure the fluff is mostly written to make it easy to disseminate and figure out on face value, but trying to read anything into it results in more of the debate we have here. And even if you take the 100 GH's and say each GC has that many, that's still 1,200 plus others, which would all be guess work from there.

[Captain Idaho]

From the Codex there is a reference in the 1st War for Armageddon that had 100 Grey Hunters lining the bank of a river to open fire on advancing World Eaters. Now this is after Logan already advanced far into enemy territory with an armored assault. How many Great Companies were present at the 1st War for Armageddon that 100 Grey Hunters on a river bank is not even the whole force present.

 

They were all present for the 1st war of Armaggedon. You don't send a couple hundred dudes to fight Angron the daemon prince!

[Grey Mage]

From the Codex there is a reference in the 1st War for Armageddon that had 100 Grey Hunters lining the bank of a river to open fire on advancing World Eaters. Now this is after Logan already advanced far into enemy territory with an armored assault. How many Great Companies were present at the 1st War for Armageddon that 100 Grey Hunters on a river bank is not even the whole force present.

 

They were all present for the 1st war of Armaggedon. You don't send a couple hundred dudes to fight Angron the daemon prince!

Well if we believe other SW fluff it would have been 11/12 great companies- one is always left at the fang, just in case.

 

In any case 100 GHs is the solid core of a single great company- 20ish WG, 15-20 LFs, and 30-50 BCs later weve got just under 200 in that company.

 

And yeah- it was ANGRON. Daemon Primarch of the world eaters. I doubt they would have sent less than 8 Great Companies and considering they asked for the Grey Knights to come in and assist Id conjecture that they brought 11.

[Captain Idaho]

Agreed. I assumed the Space Wolves would leave some men behind to guard the Fang, so I meant all barring home guard ;)

[Vash113]

The Space Wolves may not be interrested in the words of the Codex Astartes, but as I said, they did not divide the Legion because that happened to be written in the Codex Astartes. And we know that they did divide the Legions at least once. And agreeing to divide the Legion, even if grudgingly so, but then growing the newly created Chapter back to Legion strength would be pretty dishonest and going back on Russ' word. And I do not think that Russ or any of the Great Wolfs true to his spirit would do that, even if they are missing the days of the old Legion. The Codex Astartes or a written contract may just be pieces of paper for a Space Wolves, but their word or an oath mean much to them.

 

The problem with this Legatus is your statement is just not really supported by the material. The existence of the Wolf Brothers is not proof that the Space Wolves Legion ever split. That implies that the Legion was broken down as according to the Codex Dictates, and yes they were the Codex dictates, they were part of the Codex. On the contrary, all we have is an indication that the Wolf Brothers were split off from the Legion. We don't even have a reason for it, so your assumption is just one of many possible.

 

What we do know is that the Space Wolves do not now, nor have they ever followed the Codex, or owed anything to it what so ever. The dictates on splitting the Legions and reforming marine creation methods were part of the Codex, to accept those would mean having to accept or owe something to the Codex Astartes, yet we know for a fact that the Space Wolves have never done this.

 

I say now, what I've always said, the Wolf Brothers were broken off of the Legion as a test to see if successors would even work and they proved without a doubt that no, there could be no Space Wolf successor Chapters. With that in mind the High Lords gave it up and let the Space Wolves be. Russ not being a total moron, it seems probable that he re-named the Space Wolves as a Chapter to limit contention with the High Lords.

 

The numbers fit this theory quite well, as the general numbers we get for the Space Wolves Legion at the outset of the Heresy is around 10,000. Add in cassualties from the Scouring of Prospero and other battles of the Horus Heresy, the dissapearance of the 13th Company, the creation and loss of the Wolf Brothers and a rough final number of ~2,000 seems reasonable. So renaming the diminished remanants of the Legion to a Chapter is really not that implausible, but that does not mean the Legion followed the Codex Dictates and reformed because of them.

 

This brings up a very important fact that has been overlooked in this discussion; if the Space Wolves were still organised the same way they were before the break up of the Legions, numerically as wells a logistically, then why are they not called a Legion still? If they refused to break up their Legion, why did they change the name? Russ and his Wolves are honest and straightforward, so I doubt they would conceal their numbers (or even if they could) as that is not very honourable and doesn’t fit Russ’ character (he is not a liar!).

 

Well except you know the Thunderwolves... oh and the Wulfen, and we can't forget the Weregeld either... the uh 13th Company and well... shooting at Inquisition vessels, and oh a war with the Ecclessiarchy that sent them packing and well uhm... yea actually the Space Wolves keep a lot of secrets and tell a good few lies... like well... any Chapter does about their uhm... buissiness.

 

The logical conclusion from this is thus; the Space Wolves have been reorganised into a Chapter, this is obvious from the title of the Space Wolves Chapter! Since they are a Chapter, that means they are different to a Legion. Logically speaking, being called a Chapter means they fall into the criteria of what a Chapter is thus must have at least had some acquiescence to the Codex Astartes. They cannot be so far removed from Chapter strength to be considered not to be a Chapter.

 

Except the fluff tells us without a doubt and in no uncertain terms that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex at all. No two ways about that, nothing, nadda, zippo, zero. I don't see why Ultramarines players feel a need to come into the Fang and try to argue that the Space Wolves adhere to the Codex somehow, because we know for a fact that they don't. Maybe it's impossible to conscience a Chapter that doesn't follow Guilliman's decrees but that's too bad, cause the Wolves don't. Even the Black Templars owe more to the Codex than the Space Wolves, as you can't get any less than nothing.

 

Besides just because the Space Wolves are called a Chapter doesn't mean they are a Chapter in the terms of the Codex. The Codex did not invent the idea of a Chapter, and not all Chapters are organized as the Codex dictates either. Case in point, the Grey Knights, they are called a Chapter and yet have absolutely nothing to do with the Codex Astartes in any way what so ever... but they're still a Chapter. So is it that impossible that the Space Wolves could also be referred to as a Chapter and yet don't have anything to do with the Codex? I would say... yes.

 

Heck, for that matter we don't even know if the Space Wolves made the change themselves, it could just be that after the 2nd Founding all Marine groups were called Chapters regardless and the Space Wolves just got tired of correcting people and figured it wasn't worth the effort. That's another possibility, but regardless of that, the Space Wolves title as a Chapter is not indication of Codex adherancy.

 

Also, we know the Legion were divided into the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers. There is no fluff to support that the Wolf Brothers were created as a token gesture, nor created to be adherent to the Codex Astartes size limitations but the Space Wolves are not. To conclude otherwise is assumption.

 

And to conclude that the Wolf Brothers are indication of a split of the Legion is also an assumption. The fluff does not say, no matter how much you or Legatus or others might try to argue it, the Wolf Brothers are not proof of the Space Wolf Legion splitting into Chapters. To conclude as such is an assumption. In fact, it's a lot of assumptions piled together, lets break it down:

 

First you are assuming that the existence of the Wolf Brothers is indicative of dividing the Space Wolf Legion into Chapters.

Second you are assuming that this divide must have had to do with the Codex.

Third you are assuming that because you assume it must involve the Codex that it must also involve the Codex limitations on size.

Fourth you are assuming that because it must involve the Codex in both size and Legion breakup that it means the Space Wolves must adhere to part of the Codex.

 

That's four very thin assumptions piled together to a result that is in direct contradition with stated facts from Codex fluff. Not really what I'd call a solid conclusion.

 

In fact we know very, very little about the Wolf Brothers, there are many possible explanations that are equally, if not even more likely. I'll list a few:

 

Another poster brought up in this thread, that because the Wolf Brothers had such a disasterous reaction to recruiment away from Fenris, that the new Chapter may have been made up almost entirely from new recruits. I was talking to Wingates (my bro) earlier and he postulated that the Wolf Brothers may have been entirely composed of new marines with a few training officers as an experiment to see if the Space Wolves could even survive the creation of successors and of course the answer was... no.

 

Another possibility is that the Wolf Brothers are a misatributed successor that don't actually exist and are recorded only from rumor and hearsay. Perhaps Russ and his Wolf Guard departing the Fang were mistaken for a successor Chapter, in fact more recent material shows that Russ' court before being found by the Emperor insisted on coming along much like the Knights of Caliban and were known as the Wolf Brothers.

 

Another is that they could be a misatributed Lost Company.

 

Another is that they could be a myth, after all the 2nd Founding is not really well known. Of the 23 supposed Ultramarines successors we know of only what 12 of them? The specifics of the time have been shrouded in myth and legend and a great deal of truth and detail has been "lost" over time. So it could be that the Wolf Brothers never actually existed or as the other possibilities suggested were a result of something else.

 

Yet another possibility is that they also didn't exist but because the Space Wolves lied. It could be that Russ sent a message to Terra saying: "By the way, I tried making a successor Chapter :), and it uh... didn't really work ;). See, being on another planet but the super-awesome Fenris really just didn't work out for my poor uhm... Wolf Brothers there ;). And uh... we'll send some pictures along later... ;). So just uhm... take our word for it ;)."

 

Another possible explanation is that the Wolf Brothers were the Space Wolves explaining away the dissapearance of the 13th Company, which would kill two birds with one stone. It would explain why several hundred Space Wolves just vanished into thin air, and get the High Lords of Russ' back about this whole Codex... thing.

 

Another possibility (gosh its getting repetitive saying that) is that the Wolf Brothers could just be a leaked internal Legend of the Space Wolves meant to teach new initiates to the Chapter, much like the leaked legend of the Weregeld.

 

In the end we get down to an argument along the lines of Russell's teapot, just because one theory/assumption/postulation/presumption is arguable doesn't make it any more so than another and if we assume and give credence to one we must also to the others because there is no more or less evidence to support one over the other on a subject that has so little solid information. The Wolf Brothers are a fluff item that is just not clear. While it may be more palatable for Ultramarines fans to assume that the Wolf Brothers are an indication of Codex Adherancy, in reality that is in contention with what we know of the Space Wolves from the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines and the Space Wolves Codexies, and there are many, many, many other possible explanations for the existence of the Wolf Brothers.

 

-----------------------------------

 

Now, to be clear, I am not arguing that the Space Wolves are still a Legion of 10,000+ Marines. I've said before, and I'll say again, averages for the size of the Space Wolves are around 1500-2500. That number held true years ago even before the new Codex and it holds true now. In short, the Space Wolves are roughly the 2nd largest Chapter in the Imperium, beaten in size only by the Black Templars. But, of course, given the highly mutable structures of both Chapters it is possible that at some point the Space Wolves have eclipsed the Templars briefly as the Wolves waxed in strength and the Templars waned after a series of brutal campaigns but thats all rather extraneous, you get the point.

 

That said, this debate has happened many times before, and I doubt this will put an end to this same thing dragging on now or happening again later. But I figured I might as well throw this up... just in case... and... gosh this is a long post. Now to do something constructive like... read Hunt for Voldorius... with White Scars Devastators... nevermind I'll go watch "Death Bed, the Bed that Eats."

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The average great company seems to be, including support such as tank crews etc., around about 150 men at best (with the occasional exceptions such as Ragnar's company).

I disagree, for all the reasons listed in this thread- 150 men would be the lower end of average fighting strength- ie not including supporting tank crews, priests, TH pilots, etc. Meaning, including attached priests and dreads, were probly looking at around 220 for the 'normal' GC of 180ish GH/BC/LF/WG/WL in total.

When combined with some of the numbers in William Kings books it just seems like being under 100 warriors means either 1) you just came back from the fight of your life or 2) Something is horribly wrong with your command.

But at least we should all be in the same "zone" now, with good rough estimates of how many folks are in a Great Company. I should imagine that the quote Void found (how did we all miss that one?) has pull the last nail in the coffin of the Chapter-sized conjecture.

 

I agree.

It seems odd to me that even though somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 SW has been the way it is since 1991's "Armies of the Imperium" people are now looking at the same fluff that has always pointed towards this circa 2K stuff, and massively inflating the numbers because they want the Wolves to be more powerful. I just don't get it.

 

Every company is a battle-company and has everything you could want, so you aren't all cramming for those 4 BCs that UM all contend for.

You don't have to paint your guys from those four trim colours.

The Wolf Lords are all as distinct as snow from one another.

All the regular Marine stuff, plus SW stuff, plus kit-bashing the Fantasy stuff is available.

6.5 SW books from BL

An enjoyable attitude in the fluff ~ both loving life and taken heads

And a great Codex

For coolness factor, SW are VERY high.

 

Yet that is still not enough :) ;) ;)

[Vash113]

I agree.

It seems odd to me that even though somewhere between 1.5 and 2.5 SW has been the way it is since 1991's "Armies of the Imperium" people are now looking at the same fluff that has always pointed towards this circa 2K stuff, and massively inflating the numbers because they want the Wolves to be more powerful. I just don't get it.

 

Odd yes, but not surprising. Welcome to what many of us have seen for years. The new Codex hasn't really made a big change and debates about the Space Wolves numbers continue to come up time and time again. Eventually you get used to seeing one appear from the mists of time every few months. In fact, I find it more odd and amusing that the numbers have stayed so relatively consistent over such a long stretch of time despite going through so many examinations and new information, its hard to get that kind of reliable consistency in 40k material. :lol:

[Legatus]

The Space Wolves may not be interrested in the words of the Codex Astartes, but as I said, they did not divide the Legion because that happened to be written in the Codex Astartes. And we know that they did divide the Legions at least once. And agreeing to divide the Legion, even if grudgingly so, but then growing the newly created Chapter back to Legion strength would be pretty dishonest and going back on Russ' word. And I do not think that Russ or any of the Great Wolfs true to his spirit would do that, even if they are missing the days of the old Legion. The Codex Astartes or a written contract may just be pieces of paper for a Space Wolves, but their word or an oath mean much to them.

The problem with this Legatus is your statement is just not really supported by the material. The existence of the Wolf Brothers is not proof that the Space Wolves Legion ever split. That implies that the Legion was broken down as according to the Codex Dictates, and yes they were the Codex dictates, they were part of the Codex. On the contrary, all we have is an indication that the Wolf Brothers were split off from the Legion. We don't even have a reason for it, so your assumption is just one of many possible.

And to conclude that the Wolf Brothers are indication of a split of the Legion is also an assumption. The fluff does not say, no matter how much you or Legatus or others might try to argue it

Ah, it is so good to have all my sources back...

 

2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 9:

 

"Never again could the Imperium tolerate the possibility of Space marine armies falling under the influence of an enemy. The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller Chapters* and a code was drawn up** to redefine their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This code was called the Codex Astartes and it established the basis on which Space Marines would operate in the future. Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order each Chapter's size was determined at about a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller Chapter and continued to keep its old name, but the remaining Space Marine warriors were reorganised into new Chapters.

 

The new Chapters became known as the Second Founding. These Second Founding Chapters all descend from one of the original Legions, and so claim a genetic brotherhood with the original Space Marines and the Primarchs. For example, the Ultramarine Legion gave rise to not only the Ultramarine Chapter, but also the Eagle Warriors Chapter amongst others. The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter***. Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the genetic seed of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen, and therefor decided against dividing and further spreading the Space Wolves' genetic base."

 

Points of interest:

 

*This passage is from the Codex Space Wolves, but it does not explain that the Space Wolves were an exception and were not reformed into Chapters like all the others. Instead it plainly explains how "the Legions" were broken up.

 

**Note that this text distinguishes between breaking up the Legions and then drawing up the Codex Astartes as the guide for all future Space Marine forces.

 

***The last sentence of the first paragraph had established that one Chapter was to keep the original name and heraldry, while the other warriors were used to form new Chapters, which were known as the Second Founding Chapters. I.e. the Imperial Fists are a First Founding Chapter, while during the Second Founding they created the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists as new Chapters. In the same vein, the Space Wolves kept the original heraldry and name, so stayed a First Founding Chapter. Because they were so few, only one Second Founding Chapter was created.

 

 

From the Index Astartes article about the Codex Astartes (Index Astartes I, page 12/13):

 

"The Second Founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus. The existing Space Marine Legions were broken up and refounded as smaller, more flexible formations. Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called the Chapter, and in future the Chapter was recognised as the standard autonomous Space Marine formation. No longer would one man have the power over a force as powerful as a Space Marine Legion.

 

The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one Chapter keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters, (the Space Wolves divided into only two) but the Ultramarines were divided many times."

 

Once again are the Space Wolves NOT stated to be an exception to the breaking up of the Legions. Not only that, they are specifically noted as having been divided into two Chapters.

 

So, now that we have established that the Space Wolves Legion was indeed split into two Chapters, what kind of claims could there be made against it?

 

 

What we do know is that the Space Wolves do not now, nor have they ever followed the Codex, or owed anything to it what so ever. The dictates on splitting the Legions and reforming marine creation methods were part of the Codex, to accept those would mean having to accept or owe something to the Codex Astartes, yet we know for a fact that the Space Wolves have never done this.

Why, of course. A passage taken out of context. The "owe nothing to it at all" is stated in the section about how much different Chapters adhere to the organisation or tactics of the Codex Astartes.

 

From the Index Astartes I, page 13 (because I happened to have it open, but it is pretty much identical with the version in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines):

 

"Most Chapters, however, do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organisation, tactical roles or other processes. Many Chapters are largely organised according to the Codex but are further shaped by their home world and the personality of their Primarch. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels are prime examples of this. A small number of Chapters are vastly different from the Codex, and owe nothing at all to it. The most famous of these 'wild' Chapters are the Space Wolves, whose strong-willed Primarch, Leman Russ, moulded the Chapter very much in his own image irrespective of other influences."

 

So, they don't give much for what the Codex suggests a Chapter should organise like or act like. That doesn't mean the Space Wolves are not a Chapter. In fact, that passage refers to them as a "Chapter" three times. "Leman Russ moulded the Chapter in his own image." Translation: During the Second Founding the High Lords told Russ "you have to cut down your numbers to one single Chapter" to which he replied "well, allright, but I am running them how I want!"

 

 

This brings up a very important fact that has been overlooked in this discussion; if the Space Wolves were still organised the same way they were before the break up of the Legions, numerically as wells a logistically, then why are they not called a Legion still? If they refused to break up their Legion, why did they change the name? Russ and his Wolves are honest and straightforward, so I doubt they would conceal their numbers (or even if they could) as that is not very honourable and doesn’t fit Russ’ character (he is not a liar!).

Well except you know the Thunderwolves... oh and the Wulfen, and we can't forget the Weregeld either... the uh 13th Company and well... shooting at Inquisition vessels, and oh a war with the Ecclessiarchy that sent them packing and well uhm... yea actually the Space Wolves keep a lot of secrets and tell a good few lies... like well... any Chapter does about their uhm... buissiness.

There is a difference between telling outsiders to go shove it when they come asking questions that are none of their business and telling the High Lords that you will comply with their decrees but then not actually doing it. The difference is that the latter is dishonest, and also dishonerable, while the former is not neccessarily.

 

 

The logical conclusion from this is thus; the Space Wolves have been reorganised into a Chapter, this is obvious from the title of the Space Wolves Chapter! Since they are a Chapter, that means they are different to a Legion. Logically speaking, being called a Chapter means they fall into the criteria of what a Chapter is thus must have at least had some acquiescence to the Codex Astartes. They cannot be so far removed from Chapter strength to be considered not to be a Chapter.

Except the fluff tells us without a doubt and in no uncertain terms that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex at all. No two ways about that, nothing, nadda, zippo, zero.

I am sure the Codex Astartes mentions how Boltguns are the main weapon for Space Marines and how they are to be maintained, and how Chainswords are good at cutting people (or that they make more versatile weapons than chain axes and thus should be favoured, for example). Does that mean that a true Space Wolfs will throw his Chainsword at the enemy and use his Boltgun only to clobber him to death, so as to not accidentally do something that is also mentioned in the Codex Astartes?

 

If the Boltgun is the best rifle the Imperium can produce, then the Space Wolves do not "owe" it to the Codex Astartes to use them. If the High Lords decree that the Legions are broken up and divided into smaller Chapters, then the Space Wolves do not "owe" it to the Codex Astartes if they reform into a smaller Chapter.

 

 

EDIT:

 

There are even some sources that state that Leman Russ himself has authored a few articles in the Codex Astartes, though they are perhaps all from very old fluff. This is from the Epic Space Marine "Armies of the Imperium":

 

"Many of the most brilliant minds of the age contributed to the Codex Astartes.... With such brilliant minds as the Space Marine Primarchs Leman Russ and El'jonson offering sagely advice"

 

Certainly no one would suggest that the Space Wolves out of protest then stopped using the tactics Leman Russ had described in his Codex Astartes articles.