Great Company size

[Captain Idaho]

Except the fluff tells us without a doubt and in no uncertain terms that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex at all. No two ways about that, nothing, nadda, zippo, zero. I don't see why Ultramarines players feel a need to come into the Fang and try to argue that the Space Wolves adhere to the Codex somehow, because we know for a fact that they don't. Maybe it's impossible to conscience a Chapter that doesn't follow Guilliman's decrees but that's too bad, cause the Wolves don't. Even the Black Templars owe more to the Codex than the Space Wolves, as you can't get any less than nothing.

 

Besides just because the Space Wolves are called a Chapter doesn't mean they are a Chapter in the terms of the Codex. The Codex did not invent the idea of a Chapter, and not all Chapters are organized as the Codex dictates either. Case in point, the Grey Knights, they are called a Chapter and yet have absolutely nothing to do with the Codex Astartes in any way what so ever... but they're still a Chapter. So is it that impossible that the Space Wolves could also be referred to as a Chapter and yet don't have anything to do with the Codex? I would say... yes.

 

It also says in the fluff that all Chapters were split. This source is in Codex Space Marines as well as other sources, including Index Astartes articles and other Codex books. So which is true? The Space Wolves are said to owe nothing to the Codex, but being split wouldn't be a debt in my view...

 

And to conclude that the Wolf Brothers are indication of a split of the Legion is also an assumption. The fluff does not say, no matter how much you or Legatus or others might try to argue it, the Wolf Brothers are not proof of the Space Wolf Legion splitting into Chapters. To conclude as such is an assumption. In fact, it's a lot of assumptions piled together, lets break it down:

 

First you are assuming that the existence of the Wolf Brothers is indicative of dividing the Space Wolf Legion into Chapters.

Second you are assuming that this divide must have had to do with the Codex.

Third you are assuming that because you assume it must involve the Codex that it must also involve the Codex limitations on size.

Fourth you are assuming that because it must involve the Codex in both size and Legion breakup that it means the Space Wolves must adhere to part of the Codex.

 

That's four very thin assumptions piled together to a result that is in direct contradition with stated facts from Codex fluff. Not really what I'd call a solid conclusion.

 

In fact we know very, very little about the Wolf Brothers, there are many possible explanations that are equally, if not even more likely. I'll list a few:

 

Why is it thin to assume the splitting into 2 Chapters is indictive of splitting the Legion? Makes perfect sense.

 

I don't assume the division had anything to do with the Codex par se, it was part of the discussion. People are arguing, including yourself, that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex, therefore can't have been divided. Which is it? :P

 

I don't care about whether they adhere to the Codex, it's certainly not because I am an Ultramarines player! I am interested in 40k Lore, accuracy being a preference.

 

Hmm, my assumptions seem alot less of a stretch than yours:

 

Another poster brought up in this thread, that because the Wolf Brothers had such a disasterous reaction to recruiment away from Fenris, that the new Chapter may have been made up almost entirely from new recruits. I was talking to Wingates (my bro) earlier and he postulated that the Wolf Brothers may have been entirely composed of new marines with a few training officers as an experiment to see if the Space Wolves could even survive the creation of successors and of course the answer was... no.

 

Another possibility is that the Wolf Brothers are a misatributed successor that don't actually exist and are recorded only from rumor and hearsay. Perhaps Russ and his Wolf Guard departing the Fang were mistaken for a successor Chapter, in fact more recent material shows that Russ' court before being found by the Emperor insisted on coming along much like the Knights of Caliban and were known as the Wolf Brothers.

 

Another is that they could be a misatributed Lost Company.

 

Another is that they could be a myth, after all the 2nd Founding is not really well known. Of the 23 supposed Ultramarines successors we know of only what 12 of them? The specifics of the time have been shrouded in myth and legend and a great deal of truth and detail has been "lost" over time. So it could be that the Wolf Brothers never actually existed or as the other possibilities suggested were a result of something else.

 

Yet another possibility is that they also didn't exist but because the Space Wolves lied. It could be that Russ sent a message to Terra saying: "By the way, I tried making a successor Chapter , and it uh... didn't really work . See, being on another planet but the super-awesome Fenris really just didn't work out for my poor uhm... Wolf Brothers there . And uh... we'll send some pictures along later... . So just uhm... take our word for it ."

 

Another possible explanation is that the Wolf Brothers were the Space Wolves explaining away the dissapearance of the 13th Company, which would kill two birds with one stone. It would explain why several hundred Space Wolves just vanished into thin air, and get the High Lords of Russ' back about this whole Codex... thing.

 

Another possibility (gosh its getting repetitive saying that) is that the Wolf Brothers could just be a leaked internal Legend of the Space Wolves meant to teach new initiates to the Chapter, much like the leaked legend of the Weregeld.

 

Seems to me that "assuming" the Space Wolves were divided because they were split into two Chapters is more reasonable, based upon the available information, than assuming it is a myth! :)

[Skirax]

The Legion attacks properro, then stopped and killed off another section of traitors, then headed on to Earth. And they did indeed help clear Earth and then helped Drive the traitors off toward the Eye of terror.

Actually they were killing Orks and Alpha Legion on Chondax, buts that's another point.

[hmk17]

Codex Astartes governs the internal structure within a Space Marine Chapter and decreed that each one be a maximum of 1000 marines [10 companies of 100] (not including Librarians, Chaplains, Command, and Apothecarium)

 

It just took a long time to bend Russ over a barrel on it. (Well into the first century of the next millennium) The counter to "Remember what I did to Prospero?" is apparently "Remember what happened to Horus when he didn't get along with us?" The threat of being declared heretic and having the rest of the Legions erase Fenris gave him pause to accept.

 

The exact method of dividing the Legions is left to the imagination barring that each Second Founding Chapter was 1000+ of the original Chapter. Thus the term Successor Chapter is applied only to the second founding chapters. While 1000 Space Wolves set out despite Russ' grumbling, something happened; leaving us to know only the results of our ill-fated ilk: genetic instability. Don't know how long it took, but it like any Resident Evil game: bad stuff happens, the creators of the problem sweep it under the rug, obvious hooker character, and we are left with more questions than answers. Okay, so 3 out of 4 on that analogy isn't bad.

 

The real hang up is the time line. We know the Second Founding began in 21.M31; but how long did it take for the "genetic instability" to pop up? And was it "genetic instability" or something else, since there was a heretic Wolf Brother running around the Eye of Terror in "Dead Sky, Black Sun".

[Legatus]

It is often put forward as an argument that the Space Wolves might just have split off a small amount of their numbers to form the Wolf Brothers, but then stopped splitting off further Chapters even though they allegedly would have had much more left. Notwithstanding that this seems to be contradicted by the two accounts I have quoted earlier (explaining how they were divided into two Chapters, not split off one Chapter), the description about the Seconf Founding given in the Codex Space Wolves also sounds as though the process was a different one:

 

"The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller Chapters (...) The original Legion survived as a smaller Chapter and contionued to keep it's old name, but the remaining Space Marine warriors were reorganised into new Chapters."

5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 9.

 

That does not really sound as if the new Chapters were split off of the large Legion one at a time, and more like cutting down the original to about a thousand was the first priority, and whatever was over was then used to form new Chapters. "the remaining warriors were reorganised into new Chapters."

[Grey Mage]

Semantics legatus- if I cut off 1/4" from a block of cheese, the cheese has been split into two chunks, but one will be significantly larger than the other.

[Legatus]

But as I tried to highlight, the procedure was not to cut off pieces of X ounces from the large piece of cheese, the procedure was to cut down the large piece to a mere X ounces and then use whatever is left to make further X ounce pieces.

 

The directive was not to create successors. The directive was to reduce the size of the original down to Chapter size, and then use what's left to form successors.

[Grimtooth]

Do the Space Wolves maintain an abnormally large stock of their own geneseed then? Even if they were only producing as many Space Wolves were dying to maintain the lower set of numbers, each Space Wolf is creating 2 geneseed.

[Legatus]

Do the Space Wolves maintain an abnormally large stock of their own geneseed then?

Perhaps they are donating to the Adpetus Mechanicus like everyone else? I cannot remember off the top of my head whether the Space Wolves are refusing to do that. And no other Chapter is producing more and more Marines untill the Administratum cannot help but declare a new founding. If no other Chapter has any issues with overexcess of gene-seed, I can only assume the Space Wolves do not have either.

 

 

Even if they were only producing as many Space Wolves were dying to maintain the lower set of numbers, each Space Wolf is creating 2 geneseed.

It is not neccessarily possible to harvest the gene-seed of every casualty. Space Wolves desintegrated by Melta- or Plasmafire will not leave their gene-seed behind, neither will those devoured by alien monsters. Then there is the issue of not every aspirant surviving the implantation process. There is a reason why the gene-seed is precious and every loss is felt.

[Grimtooth]

Don't over inflate the casualty rate again to answer the question. And donations are what like 1% or some crap that is across the board?

 

So if other chapters are having casualties and replacing them with geneseed while at the same time creating new chapters with said geneseed, I wonder where the Space Wolves geneseed is going that is only replacing casualties and not creating new chapters?

[Legatus]

So if other chapters are having casualties and replacing them with geneseed while at the same time creating new chapters with said geneseed

They don't. Other Chapters are not doing that. Other Chapters are not creating new Chapters out of their gene-seed. The Adeptus mechanicus is doing that, once ordered by the High Lords. They use the gene-seed they have collected over the years. Every Chapter is required to donate 5% of their gene-seed (it doesn't say in what intervals) to the Adpetus Mechanicus, not just for the creation of new Chapters, but also for testing and monitoring. As there have been 20something foundings since M31 that means you have a new founding every 300-400 years. And oviously the first few foundings would likely have created less new Chapters than the later ones, as with a rising number of existing Chapters the gene-seed would accumulate much faster. It also explains why there are so many Ultramarine successors. The Dark Angels started out with 4 Chapters, while the Ultramarines had 24. 4 Chapters donating 5% of their gene-seed would obviously result in fewer stock for new successors than 24 Chapters donating 5% would. The Space Wolves who started out with only one single Chapter would accumulate excess gene-seed at a very low rate.

 

However, even if all Chapters are donating stock, that does not mean that the Adpetus Mechanicus is then using all of that to create new Chapters. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels stock is only rarely used, for example (in case of the Dark Angels without a given explanation, as it is one of the purest stocks, but still is rarely used). Obviously in the case of the Space Wolves their stock is never used to create new Chapters.

 

Whether the Adeptus Mechanicus is just locking the Space Wolves stock up in a vault, or whether they outright destroy it once their tests have confirmed that the gene-seed is still operational (and still somewhat unstable) I cannot say.

 

But maybe the Space Wolves aren't even donating 5% of their stock to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Maybe they somehow are able to refuse that. That would still only be 5% more stock available to them. And if for other Chapters who are donating those 5% every dead Marine whose progenoid glands cannot be retreived is a felt loss, then I don't think an additional 5% would make a substantial difference.

[Vash113]

It also says in the fluff that all Chapters were split. This source is in Codex Space Marines as well as other sources, including Index Astartes articles and other Codex books. So which is true? The Space Wolves are said to owe nothing to the Codex, but being split wouldn't be a debt in my view...

 

On the contrary, the decree to split the Legions was part of the Codex. There's no two ways about that, you can't adhere to the Codex in any way and still have accepted one of its most major tenets. Besides the fluff also makes many other broad and expansive statements that are then further clarified, specifics matter more than sweeping statements and the specifics tell us the Space Wolves have never accepted the Codex Astartes in any way.

 

Why is it thin to assume the splitting into 2 Chapters is indictive of splitting the Legion? Makes perfect sense.

 

Only I would say that doesn't make sense, and contradicts what we know of the Space Wolves. Just because the Wolf Brothers were formed does not mean the Space Wolves ever divided down.

 

I don't assume the division had anything to do with the Codex par se, it was part of the discussion. People are arguing, including yourself, that the Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex, therefore can't have been divided. Which is it? :)

 

Its not one or another. The Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex and never followed its decree to divide the Legion. Its as simple as that. However that doesn't mean they are still a Legion to this day or still have Legion numbers.

 

I don't care about whether they adhere to the Codex, it's certainly not because I am an Ultramarines player! I am interested in 40k Lore, accuracy being a preference.

 

Hmm, my assumptions seem alot less of a stretch than yours:

 

- snip -

 

Seems to me that "assuming" the Space Wolves were divided because they were split into two Chapters is more reasonable, based upon the available information, than assuming it is a myth! :)

 

Perhaps it seems that way to you, but I think that flies in the face of the available information. After all it is a theory that is in contention with the Space Wolf material, and it is from the same source that also fails to identify half of the Ultramarines supposed successors, their very identities lost to the sands of time. It seems rather illogical to say that inaccuracy, misinterpretation, misidentity or even myth are any less likely or reasonable.

 

But as I tried to highlight, the procedure was not to cut off pieces of X ounces from the large piece of cheese, the procedure was to cut down the large piece to a mere X ounces and then use whatever is left to make further X ounce pieces.

 

The directive was not to create successors. The directive was to reduce the size of the original down to Chapter size, and then use what's left to form successors.

 

However all of this assumes that the Space Wolves did accept the Codex decree to divide the Legion, which is entirely unjustified. The mere existence of the Wolf Brothers as a name on a list does not in any way substantiate such a claim. Therefore it is entirely reasonable to assume that at the time of the Wolf Brothers creation the Space Wolves Legion would have had no more or less Battle-Brothers than the Chapter still maintains today, even though on average that would allow any other Legion to have split off yet another Chapter.

 

Not to mention the very specifics around the Wolf Brothers creation is unknown so you cannot assume anything about it really. We know the Space Wolves never accepted the Codex, and as such never accepted the decree to split the Legions as it was an integral part of the Codex Astartes, therefore the existence of the Wolf Brothers likely has another explanation entirely. The most reasonable explanation I've ever heard is that they were a token attempt to mollify the High Lords and show that Space Wolf successors is a bad idea. But that's only one of many, many equally likely possibilities.

 

The divided Legion theory is further made unlikely by the material from the Wolf at the Door story in the Tales of the Heresy Anthology, where many members of the 13th Company were noted to be former retainers of Russ from his court on Fenris and these warriors were collectively known as the Wolf Brothers. Doesn't seem a far stretch that the separated Lost 13th Company could be falsely attributed as a successor under the name many in that Company use, the Wolf Brothers.

 

While on the subject this also means the Space Wolves never accepted the change to recruitment and transformation processes either, given the information from the Space Wolf series with the use of the Sarcophagi, Gate of Morkai and such, this probably doesn't matter much.

[Grey Mage]

But as I tried to highlight, the procedure was not to cut off pieces of X ounces from the large piece of cheese, the procedure was to cut down the large piece to a mere X ounces and then use whatever is left to make further X ounce pieces.

 

The directive was not to create successors. The directive was to reduce the size of the original down to Chapter size, and then use what's left to form successors.

Thats a very broad, general statement- and still a directive of the Codex Astartes. I disagree with your interpretation.

 

Do the Space Wolves maintain an abnormally large stock of their own geneseed then?

Perhaps they are donating to the Adpetus Mechanicus like everyone else? I cannot remember off the top of my head whether the Space Wolves are refusing to do that. And no other Chapter is producing more and more Marines untill the Administratum cannot help but declare a new founding. If no other Chapter has any issues with overexcess of gene-seed, I can only assume the Space Wolves do not have either.

 

 

Even if they were only producing as many Space Wolves were dying to maintain the lower set of numbers, each Space Wolf is creating 2 geneseed.

It is not neccessarily possible to harvest the gene-seed of every casualty. Space Wolves desintegrated by Melta- or Plasmafire will not leave their gene-seed behind, neither will those devoured by alien monsters. Then there is the issue of not every aspirant surviving the implantation process. There is a reason why the gene-seed is precious and every loss is felt.

They are, as far as we can tell, donating to the Admech as much as anyone else is. At the same time, there is no reason why there wouldnt be a significantly higher stockpile of SW gene-seed, as all of the Legions banked gene-seed that was saved would still be around, and most bloodclaws that die in battle are not vaprorized- the vast majority of SW deaths would probly be salvageable.

 

Of course, at the same time theres no reason to say that the chapter would use as much gene-seed as it was producing. That would in fact be counter to what the fluff seems to say about SM chapters, who like to have their own independent gene-seed stockpiles outside of the admech banks just in case. While the larger amounts available to the SWs allow them to field huge numbers of BCs as needed, it is unlikely the use even a quarter of their on hand resources in the course of a decade.

[Loketh]

Well I think we should be as large as any other Chapter PLUS all of its successors. Considering the fact that we are genetically incapable of having successors, it seems like we would have many sub-chapters' worth of geneseed lying around unused. What a waste. I think that would contribute to the topic starter's theory greatly.

[Valerian]

Fellas,

 

What question is this thread now trying to answer? The original question regarding the size of the current Space Wolves Great Companies, and therefore an approximate size of the Chapter deduced long ago. It seems all the recent discussion is about what we do with the geneseed and whether we split or not, but to what point?

 

I haven't read a single Black Library book, other than that Grey Knights one, so I have no clue about what they might say about any of this. I have, however, read every single Space Marine codex ever produced, and many, many White Dwarf articles on Marines in general and Space Wolves in particular. So far, everything that Legatus has stated is right on the money regarding Space Wolves background material and lore.

 

Vash, you are correct that the Wolves have always outright rejected the Codex Astartes, and the proscribed organizational structures and size caps of the "codex" Chapters in that tome, however, that still doesn't change the fact that the Space Wolves Legion did participate in the Second Founding. We strarted out with a single Legion, and ended up with two Chapters when all was said and done. This point is irrefutable, and is included in the 2e Codex Space Wolves, 2e Codex Ultramrines, 5e Codex Space Wolves, and at least half a dozen White Dwarf articles.

 

Of course, we never cared about what the Codex Astartes said about the structure of our two Chapters, and Russ as usual took his own counsel in that matter, with nobody really having a problem with it (or at least not enough of a problem to make it an issue worth fighting over). No information ever has said how many Wolf Brothers were in their Chapter, or how they were organized, but I can only assume that they were extremely similar to the Wolves.

 

We know that the Wolf Brothers are no longer on the active list of Chapters in the current M41 universe. Whether you believe that they were disbanded, as some do, or whether they disappeared into the Eldar Webway, as I do, really is of little importance; either way they are gone, and we know that there are no other successors. That fact, too, has been written in over a dozen publications.

 

So, where does that leave us? We know about the Space Wolves Chapter with its home on Fenris. We know that there are Lost Companies, that have split from the Chapter; we know that this happens, but we don't know how many, nor do we know if any have actually been able to sustain themselves over the years apart from the Chapter. They remain an enigma, as they were intended. We know that remnants of the 13th Great Company still survive, still working on the mission set to them 10,000 years ago. We don't know anything about their size, or structure either, beyond what was given to make them a playable army list in the EoT campaign.

 

So, discounting the 13th Company and any unknown, but surviving Lost Companies (who each have their own agendas), we pretty much know what comprises our Chapter, and we are what remains of the Sons of Russ.

[Grey Mage]

I believe, though I may be wrong, that some of the members were trying to say that a large amount of gene-seed on hand would mean that the SWs could be whatever size they want to be... wich is of course not accurate.

[mrun0riginal]

Well, I am planning to build Sven Bloodhowl's great company, and I thought that there were about 120 per great company, but I may change that to 150-180 marines now. I should have read my codex better.

[Legatus]

Grey Mage:

Of course, at the same time theres no reason to say that the chapter would use as much gene-seed as it was producing. That would in fact be counter to what the fluff seems to say about SM chapters, who like to have their own independent gene-seed stockpiles outside of the admech banks just in case.

Indeed, thank you. In fact, I believe someone has referd to how the Space Wolves have apparently have been reduced to a single Great Company on a few occasions in their history. If they would not have had gene stock reserves it would have taken them a long time to grow back to Chapter strength. Having a few reserves would have been invaluable in such a situation.

 

 

---

 

Vash113:

On the contrary, the decree to split the Legions was part of the Codex. There's no two ways about that, you can't adhere to the Codex in any way and still have accepted one of its most major tenets. Besides the fluff also makes many other broad and expansive statements that are then further clarified, specifics matter more than sweeping statements and the specifics tell us the Space Wolves have never accepted the Codex Astartes in any way.

*rubstemples* The Codex also describes how Assault units can be equipped with either Jump Packs or Bikes. Do the Space Wolves equip their assault units with Jump Packs or Bikes? Now, do you think they do that because the Codex suggests it, or do you think they do that because Leman Russ thought it would be a sound idea? Or do you maybe think the Space Wolves should stop with that practice because it happens to be described in the Codex Astartes?

 

There is no conflict when something is described in the Codex Astartes but the Space Wolves also happen to do that for whatever other reason. They would not owe that to the Codex Astartes then. The Codex did not just propose all new concepts. It was largely a compilation of long established doctrines. Leman Russ himself is said to have authored certain articles in the Codex. To suggest that the Space Wolves are now not using their own Primarch's doctrines anymore because they have happened to have been included in the Codex astartes is frankly ridiculous.

 

 

Why is it thin to assume the splitting into 2 Chapters is indictive of splitting the Legion? Makes perfect sense.

Only I would say that doesn't make sense, and contradicts what we know of the Space Wolves.

The Space Wolves owe nothing to the Codex and never followed its decree to divide the Legion. Its as simple as that.

Seems to me that "assuming" the Space Wolves were divided because they were split into two Chapters is more reasonable, based upon the available information, than assuming it is a myth! cool.gif

Perhaps it seems that way to you, but I think that flies in the face of the available information. After all it is a theory that is in contention with the Space Wolf material

However all of this assumes that the Space Wolves did accept the Codex decree to divide the Legion, which is entirely unjustified. The mere existence of the Wolf Brothers as a name on a list does not in any way substantiate such a claim.

"The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller Chapters (...) Whereas before the Heresy a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order each Chapter's size was determined at about a thousand. The original Legion survived as a smaller Chapter and continued to keep its old name, but the remaining Space Marine warriors were reorganised into new Chapters. (...) The Space Wolves were never a very large Legion and so were divided only once"

2nd Edition Codex Space Wolves, page 9.

 

"The second founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus. The existing Space Marine Legions were broken up and refounded as smaller, more flexible formations. Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called the Chapter (...) The existing Space Marine Legions were divided into new Chapters, one keeping the name and colours of the original Legion, while the remaining Chapters would take new titles and colours. Most of the old Legions divided into fewer than five Chapters (the Space Wolves divided into only two)"

Index Astartes I (Index Astartes - Codex Astartes ), page 13.

[hmk17]

The issue over looked is the "Genetic Instability" tag that was slapped on the Wolf Brothers. With that out there, the only tithe the Adeptus Mechanicus will be collecting is to continue trying to figure out what went wrong and why its not happening to the main chapter, which would most likely be far smaller than the standard amount. Russ HAD to personally accept the codex under threat, the Wolf Brothers gave the Space Wolves a complete out on the Codex. However it happened, Russ got his way.

 

Also you have to remember the basic nature of the geneseed. It replicates itself over time. The neck progenoid reproduces every five years and the chest every 10 years, I believe. That being said, those of the Space Wolves who survive tend to keep doing so for a long time. How old are Logan and Ulrik just off the cuff? Personal survival brings time and time brings Chapter Survival.

[Legatus]

Russ HAD to personally accept the codex under threat

That would be news to me.

 

I cannot stress enough how the decree to reorganise the Legionnes Astartes into new formation limited in size and the Codex Astartes are two entirely different things. Yes, the decree that Space Marine formations should not exceed a certain size is included in the Codex, but that is because every legislation and regulation regarding Space Marines is included in there. The Codex was meant as an all encompassing tome for Space Marines. However, the reorganisation of all Imperial forces, which included the Space Marines, was decided as a reaction to the Horus Heresy, and would have been done with or without a Space Marine guidebook.

 

The Codex, essentially, includes two types of content:

 

A - All legislation pertaining Space Marines. That their size is limited, that they are an independent institution from the other Imperial institutions, that their homeworld does not have to pay tithes, that they are allowed to maintain a certain amount of fleet assets, that they are not allowed to deal with daemonic beings, which Astartes rank would relate to which Guard or Navy rank in case of joint operations, how they are allowed to intervene in an imperial planet's affairs. etc.

 

B - An imense guide on doctrines, tactics, organisation and uniforms. How a Chapter has 10 Companies, what type of companies they should be, what kind of squads each would include. How to denote the squad types or the companies. How to approach certain situations.

 

 

The latter ("B") is what Guilliman had been working on all his life, and what is refered to when a Chapter is said to adhere or not adhere to the teachings of the Codex Astartes.

 

The legislative content ("A") has not been decided by Guilliman (well, neither were all of the doctrines his own). These were established at some point, maybe even from before the Heresy, or from the start of the Great Crusade, but a lot of them are a reaction to the Heresy. These points describe the status of Space Marines inside the Imperium, their duties as well as their authorities. All Space Marines are bound by these, no matter what they might think of the doctrines and tactics of the Codex Astartes.

 

Unfortuinately, though the background often describes how the Codex includes both these types of content, it somtimes fails to properly explain which it is refering to in a given description, or sometimes is not differentiating between them at all. The description in almost every Codex Space Marines about how some Chapters adhere closely to the Codex's organsation and tactical doctrines is clearly refering to the latter. The description of how Guilliman was working on the Codex Astartes even before the heresy is clearly about that part as well. However, there are other sources describing how the Space Marine legislation was rewritten after the Heresy, and that this was then known as the Codex Astartes. The remark about how the Space Wolves "have never adhered to the Codex Astartes and owe nothing to it at all" is made in a section that describes how closely a Chapter might be organised according to the Codex Astartes suggestions and is following it's tactical doctrines, for example. A differentiation in that instance would have been welcome, but perhaps GW was counting on the context of the statement to be obvious enough.

 

A Chapter is free to disregard the doctrines and tactical sections of the Codex Astartes without any consequences (though a Chapter would be worse off for it, as they contain the wisdom of almost all of the Primarchs, in addition to several other famous military minds). These are guides and suggestions that are intended to allow an efficiently operating Chapter and successful campaigns. The Space Wolves don't have to learn about Perturabo's siege tactics, or Corax's notes on rapid redeployment, or Khan's treatise on mobile warfare. They have their own ideas how to approach such tasks. Good for them. Leman Russ was a brilliant military mind, who had contributed a lot to the Codex himself. It is not like the Space Wolves are totally screwed if they decide to only follow his teachings.

 

However, there are just some articles an Imperial Space Marines Chapter has to abide by, and there is only so much leeway a First Founding Chapter is given. These articles are all collected in the Codex Astartes, but it is not where they originate from. They were established by the High Lords, a few perhaps even by the Emperor himself, and not by Guilliman. Abiding by these articles is not "adhering to the Codex Astartes", it is what is expected of every Imperial Space Marines Chapter.

[Valerian]

The issue over looked is the "Genetic Instability" tag that was slapped on the Wolf Brothers. With that out there, the only tithe the Adeptus Mechanicus will be collecting is to continue trying to figure out what went wrong and why its not happening to the main chapter,

 

Why it isn't happening to the main Chapter? You've never heard of the Curse of the Wulfen? A genetic corruption that turns some Space Wolves initiates into ravening beasts, who never make it back to the Fang. Sometimes it reveals itself after Initiates become full Brothers. You've probably got a few with The Mark of the curse hidden in your own Grey Hunter packs.

 

Other than perhaps the 13th Company Index Astartes article in White Dwarf 283 (which I haven't had access to read yet), there exists no fluff in any of our codices or other articles that suggests the Wolf Brothers suffered any more than the Space Wolves themselves from genetic instability. The Curse of the Wulfen and the Canis Helix is the same inheritance for all of the Sons of Russ.

Also you have to remember the basic nature of the geneseed. It replicates itself over time. The neck progenoid reproduces every five years and the chest every 10 years, I believe. That being said, those of the Space Wolves who survive tend to keep doing so for a long time. How old are Logan and Ulrik just off the cuff? Personal survival brings time and time brings Chapter Survival.

 

The progenoid glands do not keep replicating. They both collect genetic information necessary to grow new sets of implant organs. One matures in 5 years and the other in 10, but when they are gone, that's it; they are gone. They themselves are part of the implanted organs, so a Marine's body cannot make more of them. So, whether a Marine lives 10 years or 700 years, he will only ever be able to provide the genetic information to create 2 new sets of implants, total.

[Grimtooth]

So while researching some info for another thread I came upon some information that has finally answered the nagging question that if every other chapter has been creating successors and we haven't, where the hell have all our recruits gone?

 

The explanations given by others for what appeared to be outrageous casualty rates combined with what would be unprecedented recruitment freezes would just not sit well in my head, until I found this gem:

 

Codex Space Wolves, pg 10, THE TEST OF MORKAI:

 

The frightening potency of the Canis Helix is legendary, and has accounted for the lives of millions of aspirants as their bodies writhe and churn in anguish.

 

This is personally the missing link I was seeking. Casualties of war or Lost Companies could not account for the mass lack of Space Wolves in comparison to other Chapters. The discussion took into account aspirants in training casualties and the horrendous Blood Claw attrition rate due to recklessness, but I don't think any of us took into account when an aspirant actually drinks from the Cup of the Wulfen. The "lives of millions of aspirants" due to the Canis Helix is the missing mystery number that knocks the Space Wolves ability to "compete" in creating Space Wolves in comparison to other chapters way down. I cannot think of any other chapter that faces this much of a challenge just to their aspirants first act of joining a chapter.

 

Concede the argument, I say 2-2.5k just to still be bigger then most......lol!

[Valerian]

Concede the argument, I say 2-2.5k just to still be bigger then most......lol!

 

Well that was fun; what's next?

[Karack Blackstone]

Concede the argument, I say 2-2.5k just to still be bigger then most......lol!

 

Well that was fun; what's next?

 

Ale. *points at Hrigul Plasmadeath taking drink orders, and food orders as made.*

 

*Drinks calmly.*

[spjaco]

This is how my Great Company will be set up (WIP, still building):

Ragnar Blackmane

2 Wolf Priests (Apothecary and Chaplain rolled into one)

2 Rune Priests (Librarian)

1 Iron Priest

20 Wolf Guard

36 Long Fangs (six squads, Devastators)

100 Grey Hunters (ten squads, Tacticals)

60 Blood Claws (four squads, Assault Marines w/o Jumppacks)

10 Skyclaws (1 Squad, Assault Marines w/ Jumppacks)

10 Swiftclaws (1 Squad, Assault Marines w/Bikes)

 

I use Razorbacks for each of my Long Fang Squads. A Land Raider Crusader for each squad of Blood Claws plus one for the Command/Wolf Guard (5 in all). A pair of Standard Land Raiders bulk up the armor protection for the Grey Hunter squads, plus another eight Rhinos.

A pair of Vindicators, a pair of Whirlwinds, and four Predators. And if they ever decide to allow them back in the codex I while have one Leman Russ Anhilator on hand for fluffy goodness.

Oh and be able to drop the entire company in by drop pods on order.

 

Go ahead and find fault with it. Ya'll usually do.

[Legatus]

I would probably have included at leat one small unit of Wolf Scouts, for a well rounded force with a bit of everything. And I would have tried to keep the squads under 200 men in total, just to keep with the remark in the current Codex. Perhaps easier on the Long Fangs, as Ragnar prefers all out assaults.

 

Personally, I would have probably gone something like this:

 

20 Wolf Guard

20 Long Fangs

10 Wolf Scouts

100/40 GH/BC (or maybe 90/50)

 

For a "balanced" Great Company of that size I would probably go with more Long Fangs, but I think Ragnar is probably concentrating more on Assault.

 

That would be my take, anyway. Yours works too. Except for the size, and perhaps some Scouts.