Wolf Guard and Skyclaws

[Blarmb]

I suspect it was a balance concern. Standard Assault marines aren't super-amazing either, and Vanguards with jump packs are so overcosted as to be borderline useless. I indicates to me that it is possible that Jump Infantry status carries a lot of "Weight" in whatever internal guidelines GW gives it's writers. More weight than what is actually warranted by the performance boost it provides. It wouldn't surprise me. Time and Budget constraints can often limit how much a hobby gaming company can explore their own mechanics. In my opinion, there may have been a directive to err on the conservative side given somewhere, and the author did just that.

[wolfpack]

So again...why give Wolf Guard the JP option if they were of a mind to follow the tenets of Russ and "fight with their feet on the ground as Russ intended"?...this in and of itself would contradict not only the fluff and the fiber of the new dex as it holds closer to the original SW story line, but also contradicts the reason to give Wolf Guard the option at all...if they were not meant to lead Sky Claw packs in the first place...regardless of why individuals were assigned to those packs...i.e. punishment/ punitive action...as those packs would be the ones in most need of strong leadership in order to accomplish mission requirements...

[Crimson Devil]

Poor editing most likely. GW puts out rulebooks and codexes with huge logical holes in them, accept that and house rule it to your liking.

[Wildfire]

I suspect it was a balance concern. Standard Assault marines aren't super-amazing either, and Vanguards with jump packs are so overcosted as to be borderline useless. I indicates to me that it is possible that Jump Infantry status carries a lot of "Weight" in whatever internal guidelines GW gives it's writers. More weight than what is actually warranted by the performance boost it provides. It wouldn't surprise me. Time and Budget constraints can often limit how much a hobby gaming company can explore their own mechanics. In my opinion, there may have been a directive to err on the conservative side given somewhere, and the author did just that.

 

This is an excellent point. I feel GW does in fact overvalue assualt marines (though not necessarily jump infantry in general, Stormboyz for instance seem appropriately costed to me). They did get a nice point break in this edition, probably what would have made them competitive in 4th. But now that they don't score, they need another break to make them viable. That or a boost in killyness, such as the ability to add on a Wolf Guard.

 

Case in point, look at BA assualt marines. They're the preferred troop. Partly this is due to BA mindset, and another part is due to the buffs they get from other BA units, but mainly it's because they combine some assault utility with counting as scoring units.

 

I don't think it's an oversight, as they didn't fix it in the FAQ. It may be a holdover from 2nd edition, when assualt squads (and particularily blood claws with jump packs) were the end-all/be-all of troop choices.

[Grey Mage]

43pts for a WG with a JP is hardly cost effective, a VV with JP is only 30pts, same gear, same stats, and heroic intervention to boot. Rather similar weapon options too, though WG do at least win out on versatility. Still, its not 13pts worth of versatility.

[Chodjinn]

I think Skyclaws are one of the 'worst' units in the codex, but by no means unplayable. Personally, I'd only ever use them for fun, with a Wolf Priest, and as a distraction/tarpit/suicide unit. However, for distraction/tarpit/suicide units, there are much, much better and much cheaper in the codex. For the price of a 10man skyclaw unit with priest, I could get two dreads in drop pods with extra armour, and that's going to be a headache for any army!

 

I think that the points would be better spent on a larger BC pack with a Wolf Priest, in a Raider.

[Wildfire]

43pts for a WG with a JP is hardly cost effective, a VV with JP is only 30pts, same gear, same stats, and heroic intervention to boot. Rather similar weapon options too, though WG do at least win out on versatility. Still, its not 13pts worth of versatility.

 

That's not how you have to look at it. First off, WG get cheaper weapons, so it's only 8 points more expenseive. And as a unit, a 10-man squad of skyclaws with powerfist and additional WG w/powerfist is far cheaper than a similarily sized unit of VV (268 vs. 350ish), while having the same number of attacks on the charge. HI is a bad idea to use, it's too risky, so excepting BA I don't feel it's worth much. I'd count Skyclaws w/WG as a better unit that VV, hands down. If it were possible.

[Grey Mage]

Its 20pts more actually- 43pts is the base price for a WGPL with a JP on him. Another 20 for the PF.

 

A BCJP with a PF is 43pts- the same price as the pack leader with BP+CCW. Same number of attacks on the charge too.

 

Sure, its cheaper than VV- but they 1) get heroic intervention and 2) have 2 base attacks- much closer to have an entire unit of WG JPs. If you want a 10 man unit of WG JPs your looking at 430pts, BEFORE weapon upgrades. A VV unit with JPs, 10 strong, costs only 325pts by comparison, and can be made fleet via HQ, wich is easily as strong as counter-attack. That 105pts is enough to upgrade 7 of them with PWs or a Lightning Claw.

 

Not to mention heroic intervention becomes alot safer when you consider the homers on C:SM DPs and LSSs that we just dont get access to for whatever reason.

[Wildfire]

A WG powerfist is 5 points cheaper than that of a VV. So they're really only 8 points more expensive, which to me is worth it considering that they rein in the pups and add Ld.

 

I think you may have misread my post. I wasn't comparing VV to WG w/jp, I was comparing them to a Skyclaw pack with WG attached. I fully agree that a unit of WG w/jp is inefficient.

[Grey Mage]

Ah, ok- in that case were on the same page.

[wolfpack]

The point here brothers is not what compares to what or what weaps choice to give...the point is if GW is going to release rules...and then update our beloved Wolves...then why can't they get it right?...the point is that after 9 years of waiting they still leave significant gaps to make me wonder what they are smokin and why they tuck their heads in their collective fifth point when the question arises, "Why?"

 

This is not a pissing contest between blood suckers or nilla marines and the Wolves...this is to wonder and perhaps get some clarififcation on a simple (or not so) over site as to why GW would do such an obviously idiotic thing...did they do it on purpose?...how many of my fellow Wolf Lords see this as a problem?...will it be addressed on a matter of fact basis or are we to quibble about who's chapter gets what versus ours?...

 

Personally...I think GW didn't catch the mistake and now are mulling around with their heads in the sand and then making excuses for not catching their mistakes when it is brought to some ones attention...

[Karack Blackstone]

I agree it is at issue, the problem is that any fix will result in such a nice unit that only the 63 pt. total price will make it somewhat cost prohibitive to attach a WGPL per pack of Skyclaws. Let alone any WP's, who should be wildly different according to the Codex...

[Grey Mage]

Frankly.... I think itd be a waste to drop the 25pts to put a pack leader in this squad. When the difference is about 40pts to put an HQ with them, its just a much better bargain.

[Karack Blackstone]

True, although without seeing a few games with a WGPL with Fist and JP to see what they can do (I'd say Skyclaws with a PW may make some hard times for the foe as well; maybe, maybe not).

 

I suspect the inclusion of a PFist isn't as viable as I'd want it to be. the pts for a WP seem pretty slim, and adding a JP and WTN alone may be worth it. I just don't see it being as viable as I'd hope it would be. A unit as points heavy as this could be might not be worth the suicide slot it takes up.

 

WP - WTN, JP

Skyclaws x 10, PW (flamer? Melta?)

WG - JP, Fist

 

393 pts if I'm right. That's just ONE. Not exactly cheap...

[Grey Mage]

Myself, I take a WGBL with JP, WC, SS, WTT, and MBs.... *shrugs*.

 

But no, theyre not cheap- compare it to normal assault marines with a captain, you wont find them for much less in any codex.

[wolfpack]

I asked this question and started this thread to get answers...not points versus points on what HQ or not to include with my skyclaws...I figure if enough of my fellow Lords make noise about it then GW would resolve the issue with something 'official'...instead I get quibbling about what independaent to field with the packs...

 

I intend to pound this subject into the ground until..GW makes up it's mind and gives me an answer that is more fitting a 9 year wait in rules updates...and not some half arsed attempt by a third wing lacky to sate my curiosity or placate me with a bunch of dribble about his personal reasoning as to why GW screwed the pooches again...

[Karack Blackstone]

In all, I really can't see why GW did not allow WG to lead Skyclaw packs, unless you're willing to accept a half-hearted attempt to claim it must be their wild nature, denying any but the most exemplary warriors' example of what they should be or do. Other than that, I have nothing.

 

What I will offer is that this is an (hopeful) oversight at best. At worst, it goes to your statement about GW at the end there. It may not be the way we like it, but it is what it is...

[stinkenheim]

if it was an oversight it would have been covered in the FAQ/Errata.

 

It wasn't so for whatever reason I can only conclude that it must have been deliberate. Does it suck, kind of. Will complaining about it change things, probably not.

[wolfpack]

Can't hurt...might help...and as a collegue on another forum so eloquently put it...'Never ask GW staff for rules clarification...your just asking for trouble'...LMAO