General concerns with non-armour builds

[Tanhausen]

Hello Brothers,

 

First of all, I favour I ask of you: don't tell my fellow DA I'm around here... I don't want to end up being a black pearl ;)

 

Now seriously, I've been playing 40k for some 5-6 years but got back "seriously" just this year. I usually play a pure DW list and enjoy it A LOT.

 

However, I've always had a taste for assault marines (you would never expect that from a terminator guy, would you? ;)) and I've been slowly gathering some jump pack buddies.

 

My aim is to build a list with the following criteria:

 

- Jump pack only

- No transports

- Keep vehicles to a minimum. I'd consider Storm Raven if its "a must". Not interested in predator or LR spam.

 

That being said, I'd appreciate ideas on how to translate the concept to the board:

 

- Are there BA-only special builds that seem to work nicely?

- What characters are deemed "multiplier effect" for JP?

 

I haven't had the chance to take a look at the codex, but the idea was something like:

 

- JP chaplain

- 2 x JP Sang Priests

- 3 x 10 assaults with jump packs and 2x flamers and 1 PF

- 3 x 10 assaults with JP and 2xmeltas and 1 PF

 

The thought of 60+ JPs really appeals to me and even if this is not intended to be a hardcore competitive army, I would like to be able to put up a fight in some local tournament.

 

Thanks for reading and for sharing your thoughts.

[JamesI]

First, I wouldn't go with 6 assault squads. Make some better units like Sanguinary Guard, Honor Guard or Vanguard (depending on roll needed).

 

Sanguinor is a real good choice, as is Dante. Astorath and Reclusiarchs are also good choices.

 

I would highly recommend some vehicles and support units. Stuff like Vindicators, Land Speeders, Attack bikes if you don't like preds/Baals.

[Tanhausen]

Thanks for the reply JamesI

 

As said, this is side-army idea. I also plan on a side-army space wolves army, but that is another issue.

 

The concept is a red tide: everybody to the front, there is no tomorrow, a smack in the face and blood for the blood god (oops, that slipped! hehe).

 

I've got no problem with special characters, as long as I can "jump pack them".

 

From what I've read, the Priests are really a must.

 

The models with feathers... I don't like that much, but I'd do some "counts as" and that's it.

 

Could you give me a brief run-down on the pros vs cons of:

 

- Astorath

- Dante

- Sanguinus

- Honor Guard

- Vanguard

- Sanguinary guard

 

I'll try and get the codex asap, but I'd like to boil this up slowly and proper :P

 

Thanks!

[glider0880]

IMAO i'd say one of our greatest HQ choices is Mephiston.

If you search around the forum you'll see a couple of threads dedicated to the amount he has killed in battles!

 

With the pychic abilities allowing him to count as Jump Infantry (this makes him able to move 24" into assualt), use a Strength 10 force weapon and get the prefered enemy special rule all in one turn it makes him an absolute beast.

Let alone the fact the he is WS-7 BS-5 S-6 T-6 W-5 I-7 A-4 Ld-10 Sv/2+

 

Id go with James1 on the inclusion of some Sanguinary Gaurd, and Sanguinary Preists will be very usefull with your assault squads.

 

Welcome to the ranks of BA!

 

P.S Codex:BA codex

[Brother Kovash]

I second using Mephiston. He is a beast, and he still fits your jump theme.

 

Have you thought about throwing in some Death Company?

[Red Fury]

An all jp army is viable with no tanks around, but assault squads are not great combat squads. The heavy hitters are the DC, Sang Guard, Honor Guard, and Vang Vets. I'd pick two of the harder squads first and then use the assault squads as filler, backup and meatshields.

 

Plus if you take two HQs you can field two units of honor guard which are not much more expensive then a lone S.Priest and have a ton more options along with more bodies/attacks/wounds etc. Sure the squad will be expensive when you finish kitting it out, but they will dish out some hurt and work great supported by an assault squad.

 

-Fury

[small_dog]

Greeting fellow BA. I am also running an all Jump list for the blood angels. I however do love the Sanguinary Guard (models with the feathers :D ) So i have fashioned a list with Just them as Dante makes them troop choices. I also include the S. Priest and the Sanguinor. And finally i add in one Librarian dread with Wings of Sanguinus, which causes the dread to move like jump infantry.

 

Dante is a beast to say the least. He makes Sanguinary guard a troops choice and gives a large benefit when deep striking.

 

Astorath is a very nice model and I plan to test him out because he amplifies the possibility of the Red Thirst special rule, and all Sanguinary guard have the Red Thirst.

 

Sanguinor is very nice but one of his special benefits requires at least one unit that has a sergeant in it. So keep that in mind. He also provides a nice bit of support for assaulting troops he is within 6" of.

 

Honor Guard I do not field because I can field Sanguinary guard in their place, and they can carry a chapter banner as well. But the honor guard do have more options for the more standard weapon choices, ie. meltaguns.

 

Vanguard I am not any authority to give advice on as I have never ran them

 

Sanguinary Guard, aside from the fact you dont like the models, or at least the wings, they are a pretty good unit. (and you could leave the wings off) They have some good weapon options and hit pretty hard. Especially with Dante and a Sanguinary Priest attached. Their downside is a lack of invul save and 5 man unit restriction.

 

Hope this helps, this is just some basic info to help you get thinking. Welcome to the Red Thist!

[BrotherMoses]

LOL a Dark Angel being secretive. Hilarious!

 

I would either use Astorath, Dante, or a regular captain as my HQ. Astorath so that more of your assault units have red thirst, Dante so you can deep strike in a squad super accurate for a game-saver, or a captain to go cheap. Honour guards are a good idea with possible Astorath or the captain, with Dante I'd probably either use one or a Sanguinary Guard squad.

 

Troops: Assault squadx2 and Death company. Possible more AS's depending on game point size. Kit them with flamers and meltaguns for anti infantry and armor. Death Company here is your awesome point sink. USE LEMARTES

 

Elites: Jump chaplains, Sanguard, and/or jump sanguinary priests. The priests make your charges awesome and give feel no pain OR the jump chaplains make you reroll on the charge and are tough guys, and the Sanguinary Guard are flying terminators with no invol save and striking at I. Don't be afraid to mix it up here to find your preference.

 

Fast Attack: Vanguard. Lots of them. These are expensive but can be the hammer of your army. With Astorath they're more likely to have furious charge when they deep strike in which is sweet. You can give them pistols to tank hunt as well which is cool, but not super effective imo. Still not to be underestimated.

 

There are no flying circus heavies except for Storm Ravens I think. You could try whirlwinds or vindicators to cause a lot of shock value and especially pinning fire while your guys arrive on the table if you absolutely wanted to, but I don't think you'd like any vehicles.

[Tanhausen]

Thanks everybody for your input.

 

Having a look at the codex, I'm very attracted to:

 

- Astaroth: big and mean chaplain... how can I not like him? :P Plus his Axe rules...

- Sanguinary Guard... though they seem a bit flimsy (they are bound to attract a lot of fire and with 2+ no inv...short lived).

What benefit does a two-handed weapon have?

- Sanguinor... it reminds me of the SOB Cannonness: throw them into the thick of the battle and roll for as long as he lives!

- Dante... another assault beast!

- Vanguard Veterans...the tactical option of being able to assault is a VERY big piece. Can I actually take 3 of these guys, full fledged? Who cares if I spend 1k on them!

 

Problem is they don't have Descent of angels so... they scatter 2d6 (just like my DW :P). And you have to declare the heroic intervetion BEFORE they land...

 

So, as a concept, I like:

 

Astaroth

2 x Vanguard veterants, 1 for tanks, the other for infantry

2 x Priests

2 x Assaults w/flamers

2 x Assaults w/meltas

 

All units, 10 men strong with space for decent tooling up... that still delivers 60+ models with jump packs.

 

What do you think? Do they blend with the all out strategy? Is it flexible enough?

 

PS. Yes, I'm secretive :P

[JamesI]

Tanhausen, look at the jump pack rules in the codex. Every model with a jump pack has DoA (yes, even Vanguard!)

[Arkio]

in regards to the van vets, i prefer running them in smaller 5 man groups with power weapons up the wazoo, usually come outs 320 (all twin LC's) points or just below and it turns what it hits into red mist. i find the extra 5 models the points spent on tooling them up with what they need to HI, can actually hamper your effors as deep striking 5 is much easier then deep striking a blob squad of 10

[Chimaera2000]

I've been using (mostly) all-jump armies at low points-level and it's worked well. Your one vulnerability is to large blast weapons like battle cannons. I get around this by equipping my Assault Marines with meltaguns and Deep Striking in. That'll let you shut down the enemy's ordinance weapons before you continue on your way. For that reason, I strongly prefer putting meltaguns on the assault squads. Where I find that flamers really shine is on Honour Guard. Four flamers' worth of fire is practically guaranteed to force saves on sergeants and special weapons and does quite a number on a horde before a charge.

 

I too am a big fan of Vanguard Veterans for their ability to tie up enemy units in their backfield. They're practically necessary if you'd like to try an all-Deep Striking army with jump packs. You mentioned configuring one unit of Vanguard for anti-infantry, the other for anti-tank... I personally don't think that distinction is necessary. Ideally you're going to be using you Veterans to be landing a multi-charge into the largest group of infantry and vehicles that they can confidently tackle. Power fists allow you to crush both infantry and vehicles, which is why they're very well-laced on Vanguard. You might like a squad size of eight for Vanguard. Try this out: put down an infantry base and arrange as many other infantry bases in a ring around it as you can. You can fit six bases around it, right? That means the eighth gets to be put on the next outer ring when you Deep Strike... meaning you can charge an extra base's worth of distance. :P

 

Oh, before I forget... check out the wargear section for the Jump Pack entry. Any model with a jump pack gains the Descent of Angels rule, so your Vanguard are safe!

 

To answer your question, a two-handed weapon provides no benefit. It's actually a drawback. In terms of attack quality, I like to think of baseline Sanguinary Guard as Assault Marines with power weapons and call it a day. I've seen a pretty effective configuration of them on these boards with Dante, a Sanguinary Priest w/Power Weapon, a Chapter Banner and four Infernus Pistols. You Deep Strike them in to slag whatever vehicle you want to die, then drown the enemy in power weapon attacks. It's tremendously expensive, but makes good use of both Dante's and the Sanguinary Guard's strengths. Dante's Invulnerable save and four wounds even lets them soak some non-Instant Death-causing, low-AP attacks.

[Tame]

A few additions to the already nice list of suggestions/remarks:

- Since you don't have any armour to hide behind, a Librarian with Shield of Sanguinius can help a lot. Get one with a jump pack (WoS if you really need points, but IMHO, it's better to spend the 25 pts and be sure he won't get left behind. Not to mention you get to choose another offensive power. You don't need the epistolary upgrade since Shield is using during the enemy phase)

- Priests transform ASM from average CC units into scary CC units. Protect them.

- You might need more anti-tank. Maybe reconsider the 2*2 flamers and take 2*3 meltaguns and 1*2 flamers. I like to take one less ASM squad and use an honor guard with 3 or 4 meltaguns :-)

- Completely subjective opinion but I think Astorath is pricey for what he brings to the table.

- Experiment with or without 3-5 storm shields on the Vanguards for added awesomeness (and cost!). Also maybe equip them the same way instead of separating them into 2 different roles: if only the first squad is anti-tank and the second one is the only one landing on the 2nd turn, it might be a problem.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wow this a great thread and I think it focuses on one of the biggest strengths of the new codex - you can run a non mech army that is very competitive. Because mech is so popular you can build a list that brutally punishes the meta builds. I recommend the inclusion of one Stormraven since it integrates do well with an all jump army, just as it was intended. Stormravens also make our dreadnaughts viable since you can get them where they need to be without losing them to meltas. Once the dreadnaughts are in close combat they are kings in the assaults. If you run Death Company the best dreadnaught is a Death Company dread with a pair of Blood Talons and a heavy flamer - fleet plus furious charge is built in plus they automatically count as having extra armor. The Furioso dreadnaught is the second best choice for a walker and is a great choice as well with WS6 and armor value 13 on the front and sides.

 

I think the combination of Dante and the Sanguinor is the best selection for HQ when running an all jump army. They both give big buffs to this style of play. My third choice is Astorath since he by the odds should make half your jump units succumb to the Red Thirst.

 

Full squads of assault Marines are great since you can combat squad them for objective based games. I run mine with two meltaguns and a sergeant with either thunderhammer & stormshield or a power fist and an infernus pistol.

 

If you take Dante then really you should take a squad of Sanguinary Guard (2x infernus pistol, power fist & Chapter banner). They count as a troop choice when you field Dante and are the perfect choice for his retinue. They are fearless so Dante also counts as fearless when he joins them. This is very helpful versus IG psyker battle squads.

 

I also suggest a mix of Chaplains and Sanguinary Priests to futher buff your squads. Chaplains make them fearless and reroll hits when charging. The Priests give them furious charge and feel no pain. All my characters such as these have infernus pistols as you can never have enough red hot melta death.

 

I am also a big fan of Vanguard veterans due to the combination of Heroic Intervention and Descent of Angels. I kit mine for close combat as that is what they are to provide.

 

0b :rolleyes:

[Hergrmir]

I've been thinking a lot about a death from above blood angels list as well lately, and here are my thoughts:

 

HQ:

Librarian w/Shield of Sanguinius and maybe Blood Lance. Either two of them for reliability and nastiness, or one of them and either Dante or Astorath. I'd actually prefer two librarians I think, or maybe a chaplain for the rerolls. Astrorath's boost can be redundant if you can deploy your priests well and are lucky enough to stay alive - librarians are pretty much always going to be useful. Dante I mostly like for his accurate DS ability.

Honour Guard:

2 squads, with either 2-3 melta guns or a bunch of PWs/LCs (I prefer the latter, since you're paying for their multiple attacks. The extra priest is nice to extend the FC to more units.

 

Elites:

I don't actually like Sanguinary Guard that much, but the models I'd be tempted to use either for Vanguards or Honour Guard. I just don't think they bring enough to the table for their points, or at least not to my satisfaction. You could use them instead of the Honour Guard to attack heavy infantry.

I would definitely get 2-3 Sanguinary Priests (if you haven't got the codex, they're solo models that grant benefits to nearby friendly units) with jump packs, and MAYBE pay for a PF/PW.

 

Troops: I'd go for either two and a half or three full assault squads. One of them would likely me packing flamers/hand flamers, and the others would be meltas/hand meltas. They'd drop in to wreck hard vehicles. In fact, I might just go all meltas, since they'd be my primary anti-tank. You could do Death Company, which are awesome, but very pricey if you get them jump packs and they'll just run around after a cheap enemy unit all game if your opponent can lead them around.

 

Fast Attack:

2-3 units of Vanguards. Right now I'm thinking they might best be equipped, for what I want to do, with storm shields, jump packs and nothing much else.

 

So with that, what would I do? The Vanguards would do their DS/charge against any enemy unit that either is a nasty shooter, or who they can hold for a turn or two, until either an assault squad or a Guard squad can leap in to actually do the killing, depending on whether you need volume or quality of attacks. Blood Lance librarians and meltagun assault squads will try and knock out vehicles ASAP. Ideally, either I'll drop a transport with one and then the nasty melee unit it's carrying is slowed down until I can divert multiple units to deal with it, or they'll shoot up gun tanks.

 

The thing basically to realise IMHO, is that regular assault marines are not THAT good. Specialist close combat infantry will likely hold and then beat them the next round, so you need to concentrate your attacks, deal with a threat, and then move on to pick the next one off.

[Firedrake28]

Check out this thread at 3++. It should tell you pretty much everything you need to know about how to successfully run one of these armies.

[Crynn]

Hey fellow Angels of Death Player, does that still work? haha maybe jsut second ed.

To be frank there are a lot of good ideas here but a lot of not so great ones too.

I'd like to clarify and give ou a competitve jumpers list, well as competitive as you can make it. The army type is by no means a flop, but in general isn't as tough as mechanised lists, so go hard with this list to make up for that.

 

Ok first things first you dont want vehicles so that rules out Heavy Support, If someone tells you take a storm raven, ignore it, they are over priced and will perform even worse in an army with no other vehicles, what is every las cannon in the opponents army going to shoot, a lightly armoured vehicle or an assault marine? Nuff said.

 

So the basics.

 

HQ

 

Mephiston. period, you want to make this list a list that can put down some of the more competetive lists? This is a good startm he in ho way is a force multiplier but hes a jumper and psych defence and in general will take on many death star unit by himself. He is fast and is effective against every type of oppenent in CC. If you don't take him your at a handicap already.

 

HQ no:2 Yes you need 2 why? I'll explain further down. But take it on a whim. Now you either choose a chaplian or a lib with rage to give one of your ten man assault squads you will be taking all those rerolls to hit we love. My personal preference is the lib as like one bright spark up the top said, you take shield as a second power and give your army or the front line a 5+ invun, the front line will give your back line a 4+ invun. The lib can cast both powers without being an apistolary and rerolls to hit on a whole squad is fantastic with rage. With JP hes only 120pts bargain

 

Now Why 2 HQ's? So you can get 2 units of honor guard. Severely underrated, severely. We all agree priests are one of the best units in the BA dex and you are going to need 2 if not 3 of them in your army however there weekness is that they are a kp each! And they are IC's so can be targeted and killed, also they are 75pts with a jp and nothing else. So enter honor guard. at 165 pts with jump packs they are 5 marines that include a priest and all have an aditional attack and the best weapon options in the book. For comparison 175pts gets you 5 assault marines and a priest with jump packs. 10pts more for one extra wound 4 less attacks not nearly as good weapon options and twice the kill points where the priest can just be hit by a pw and die? This is the core of your army, melta for anti tank and if you want them to hit hard in assault llightning claws and never ever power weapons, LC are superior to pw in almost every circumstance especially with the inclusion of a chapter banner which you may want to take for +1 attack on all models in the unit, can incude attached characters as well. You may want to look into taking 1 or 2 storm shields just to absord damage as well. This unit is the cheapest and most effective way of getting a priest, melta weapons all with low kill points. Take them.

 

Elites.

 

You are correct Sang Guard do not bring enough to the table, thye perform best in list with vehicles so they can run behind them on the way in so to mitigate the fact they have no invun, you have no vehicles thus you cant hide them so like you said just dont take them.

 

Sang priests. take one more including your 2 honor guard if you feel you need it.

 

Chaplains, also not a bad choice to attatch to large sqauds of assault marines, rememebre the larger the squads the more you makle use of his ability to reroll hits on the charge, chap in 5 man assault squad is wasted.

 

Fast attack

 

Vanguard Vets,

 

These units are not too bad, if you dont go too over the top with kitting them out they will be great to hit your enemys weak spot and either kill them in asault or at least tie them up, storm shield lightning claws meltas, all the same as honor guard really except they should be more focussed on the assault phase than the shooting in terms of equipment, but same goes lightning claws. I recommend a squad of these to tie up oblits devs, rear armour tanks etc.

 

Troops

 

Assault squads. Easy

 

always 10 man for less kill points, can be split into 5 man squads for objectives. in kp you attach libs or chaplains to them and use all theiir attacks plus rerolls to kill things on mass, orks nids guard etc, you can either go the option of anti horde, ie flamers and power weapon (yes on normal assaults that will hit week opponents youa re allowed if you liket o take PW i still take LC's though) or anti armour 2 meltas and a PF, either way for their cost they are very effective at what they do.

Do not mix and match the weapons, make each squad specific for its intended role.

 

If you feel you need a death star unit, tool up one vanguard squad and use that maybe hit whatever the vang hit with meph as well to insure death.

 

This is the way to play it my friend. it's quite simple but very effective if you use it correctly and with all that melta and decent of angels you can bring it to mech armies even without starting all on the board.

 

Other suggested units and reasons not to use them.

 

Dante. He is not a close combat beast at all. he is armed with a regular PW and has 1 additional initiative. for his points he is actually quite bad in combat. his mask is good but against nid and dameon players it mopre often than not can not be used as they dont really use ICs. his no scatter is almost redundant, the average scatter on ba jp troops is 2.13 inches. at 225 points he is 25 points off one the best HQ's in the game Meph, he also never sees competitive play

 

Astorath. bad unit, so bad he cant even beat dante in CC, really. He is very expensive and his ability is made almost redundant by one of the best units in our dex, the sang priest so he is a huge waste. I dontcar how good his axe is, with only 3 attacks and no iternal warrior, like dante he doesnt actually do that much dmg and will just get id'd

 

The Sanguinor, not too bad of a unit but can get tied up by walkers very easy, his tr 5 just doesnt cut it, nice army buff but hugely expensive and on average isnt as good nor as tough as meph is. Also not as fast. He isnt your worst choice though.

 

Sang guard. too expensive for too little. 2 handed just means 'give me one less attack please' so dont bother, just use those fatastic miniatures for your honor guard or vanguard.

 

So to sum it up, you want those priests in the honor guard for FnP and FC and at a librarian for shield when your units cant find natural cover as well as giveing a squad rerolls to hit each combat phase.

 

I know this is very blunt but I really believe if you stick to this you will have a lot of success. Hope this has been helpfull and best of luck.

 

Crynn

 

(ps sorry i dont have time to proof read right now so there maybe some slight typing errors,k my appologies)

[Tanhausen]

First of all, thanks for your input! And don't worry about being blunt, straight or curt: I'm looking for insight, not praise! ;)

 

Sure, we can go back to 2ed and claim the Angels of Death enviroment :lol:

 

1.- Sanguinor and Dante I've pretty much disregarded... you've convinced me!

 

2.- Mephiston... the issue I have with him is that you can't hid him in a a blob, so he is going to be target number 1 ASAP. That has the up side, because he doesn't score and it does take some fire power to bring him down... what saves does he have? Only the 2+? No inv?

 

3.- Astorath/chaplains... I love. Re-rolling to hit when assaulting is a big what. I'm not specially fond of named characters... even though Astorath does have a very cool model... but that doesn't mean I have to play him! hehe

 

4.- Libbies I'm not familiar with. I've never really been into the hood's guild. However, I understand that beyond the possibility of denying your opponents psych powers, there are some cool powers going around. I've suffered the S8 line and the S10 in CC.

 

5.- Honour Guard: I like Crynn's reasoning regarding the priests. Specially not giving away points (although you can always hide a normal SP in an ASM blob).

 

Note: I've read/seen that usually 2 SP are enough and 3 are too much... I guess it just comes down to how you play and practice. This thread does not attempt to deliver an uber-JP list... getting to know thy army is way much decisive than choosing Dante or Astorath :teehee:

 

Note 2: I'm used to taking marines in either 5 or 10 batches (wonder why :D) but I liked the idea of an 8 man unit, hence getting that extra base to assault if needed.

 

To sum it up, I think the list then should go somewhere like:

 

1x Mephiston - big fire target and can deliver quite a pain.

1 x Librarian - protection and interesting powers.

2 x Honour guard - kitted for wound allocation but mainly vs infantry (shields, claws).

2 x Chaplain - to attach to big ASM squads

2 x Vanguard veterans, tooled for close combat. Makes no sense in assaulting a vehicle when you just shoot him... sound like a waste to go melta/powerfist. Could add a couple of melta bombs "just in case".

3 x ASM tank/MC hunting geared (meltas, PF or a TH even better)

2 x AMS anti infantry geared (flamers, PW)

 

Note: I've intentionally left out how many marines per squad... that will depend on the points available.

Note 2: Could somebody give me an estimate of how many points this would be? Lets assume 8 men strong, no gear payed for.

 

I'm not concerned about infantry (except for close combat specialists... but still, an 8 ASM force, with a chaplain and in the FnP bubble is bound to deliver pain) but I am a bit about tanks (mainly the heavy ones with AV13+) and specially MC.

 

How I am supposed to deal with a Bloodcrusher or a Trygon or similar? Always within this list concept :sweat:

[Black Memories]

The two obvious ways to deal with MC's for blood angels are obviously shooting and assault. As it pertains to your list though, gearing your honor guard to be MC killers and elite hunters would be a much better idea than making them troop killers (which a jump pack assault army already is).

 

The second option, though i realize it violates your personal restrictions, is add firepower. Attack bikes and devastators specifically. Some people aren't huge on them, but attack bikes and devastators in a jump pack army are just huge. We'll just leave that for down the line if you want to expand your infantry-only horizons to include non-jumpers.

 

As far as assault, make sure you get the charge, and use fist/hammer type weapons. Honor guard and vanguard vets both can be made into flying assault terminators that have the option for deep strike as well (most armies with lots of mc's wont cause shooting-havoc, this is more of a general purpose usefulness). They are a tie-up unit also. you'll notice running a blood angels army getting units to tie people up so a 2nd unit can charge and wipe them out is a pretty big deal (enter the usefulness of sanguinary guard here).

 

Also I would disagree with the use of Mephiston. IMO he's an absolutely atrocious selection for a jump pack list. No invulnerable save and inability to synergize with the rest of the list really hinders him. Even if you stand him behind another squad he's just going to take every anti-tank weapon shot they have to the face. This may seem like a good thing, up until you consider that anti-tank weaponry really does nothing at all to a full jump pack army. It isn't like it's sparing you that many guys. You're simply just losing yourself 250 points. Meph (general consensus seems to agree) is almost always better in a mechanized army. For the same reason i'd also be hesitant to take the sanguinor, with only 3 wounds and a vulnerability to small arms fire he does go down easily, but his army buffs in addition to his HQ-ass kickery is hard to ignore. Again you're losing an entire unit of guys for him though. I think the best HQ option is just another librarian with a pack or a reclusiarch chaplain.

 

Also don't rule out astorath and dante, they really do have very good purposes in the army. Also when in a unit with a chapter banner and furious charge they WILL destroy things in CC. I have no idea why the idea came up that they wouldn't, that's fictitious.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Agree with lack of synergy for Mephy here, regular Libby adds more in my opinion.

 

The second option, though i realize it violates your personal restrictions, is add firepower. Attack bikes and devastators specifically. Some people aren't huge on them, but attack bikes and devastators in a jump pack army are just huge. We'll just leave that for down the line if you want to expand your infantry-only horizons to include non-jumpers.

 

Another option is to add Land Speeders. A bit more costly but their missiles are just :drool and they do fit with the jump pack army theme.

Kit them for long range firepower and keep them flying around in the back to add support to your army charging up in front. Your enemy will probably not have the resources to attack them if you keep them moving and/or in cover.

[Zealadin]

HQ

 

Mephiston. period, you want to make this list a list that can put down some of the more competetive lists? This is a good startm he in ho way is a force multiplier but hes a jumper and psych defence and in general will take on many death star unit by himself. He is fast and is effective against every type of oppenent in CC. If you don't take him your at a handicap already.

 

Got to about here and pretty much lost any respect for the poster.

Everyone likes advice, but telling people they have to play the game a certain way... its just lame amongst other things.

Mephiston is great but in no way necessary. Infact alot of the more competitive blogs shun him entirely as despite being a total beast he is extremely expensive. He also IS NOT a death star killing unit, most death stars eat him for breakfast. I'm sure you can find more educated guides on how to use him infact, and even the Mephiston killed.... thread has plenty of advice in this regard.

 

Just reading through this first point, and yes this is going to be critical, you strike me as the kind of player who thinks 'lists' are the be all end all and that players have little to no impact (this is just the vibe i'm getting from your post), and sorry but Mephiston may be great at owning noobs (an incredibly important part of 40k no doubt) but smart players deal with him, particularly those playing newer codex. Especially when he is part of a JP list and can't totally be sheilded behind vehicles and is relying on good roles and no anti psyker to be moving at the same speed as everyone else.

 

Anyway you mentioned you didn't reread your post so you probably don't realise you sound like a totally overbearing 40k fanboi, maybe next time check over it and you'll find ways you can make it useful and insightful instead of a "only way to play-guide".

 

Of course if you were asking for this kind of response OP, then I apologise, I just saw this thread progressing really well until someone had to destroy it with the usual basically value-less internet dribble spread over common known army facts. There was a reasonable amount of valid information in there but it was pretty much already provided by all the other posters.

[Tanhausen]

I didn't quite take the Mephiston idea as "this is the only character that fits into the jump pack concept list"... and more of "he blends in nicely". Please, don't let the "is Mephiston worth it or not" discussion ruin what is a VERY helpful thread (for me and for many BA starters I guess, 300+ reads and 20+ posts!!!)

 

I've pretty much made my mind to include at least 1 libby for the following reasons:

 

1.- I ought to learn how this guys work some day!

2.- Psych defense is quite a deal these days: Runic Priests, Daemons (which will get another bump after the new miniatures), Nids, Imperial Guard...

3.- Even though the 5++ power is probably useful, I like the S8 line and the S10 CC.

 

Thanks for the MC tips!

 

The "problem" with the Honour Guard is that they have to fulfill a double role: hit hard AND provide the "Blood Bubble".

 

I'd say that pairing up 1 squad of Honour Guard and 1 squad of Vanguards, both tooled for heavy CC hitting, ought to turn out as a nice wedge vs MC and tanks if needed. And since I would run 2 of each, chances are at least 1 of each would land at the same time in support of each other.

 

As far as bikes, landspeeders... anyone here know something called Ravenwing? :P Nah, seriously, I'd like to keep to JP only :)

 

So the idea is:

 

2 x Libby

2 x Honour Guard+Veterans, both tooled for heavy weight.

2 x Chaplain + ASM squad with meltas - pop transports and assault

2 x ASM with flamers

 

I've always been a fan of "doubling" squads, specially when depending on reserves. Usually you will get at least 1... and if you get both... concentrate!

 

How does this sound? Is it within 2k points range?

[Hergrmir]

Easily in 2k.

 

Thing about Mephiston is that IMHO he's just going to fail to cast the psychic jump pack power at the worst moments and then be left behind or out front. I suppose, at the end of the day, he's an appropriately costed unit, in that he's not super-efficient for his points, but he's also not way overcosted so he's actually just worth thinking about.

 

I definitely don't think two Sanguinary Priest bubbles are enough, I'd go 2-4. Just play around with your models on the table. Move 2 12"inch circles around and then move 3, and then think about where you envision your units being. Of course, you might find two to be entirely adequate and that's cool.

 

I really like Astorath and the upped chance of going nuts for everyone else, but just given that I'd prefer to put 3-4 priests down, I'd get more use out of multiple librarians. As you said, psychic defense can be quite a thing these days, and BA psychic powers can do a lot of heavy lifting. I certainly will almost always want both of them to go off, but with two I'm somewhat likely to be able to get one power off at least. I'm liking the S8 line, since it brings a long range element to this list, but the close combat bonuses take what you already do and make you even better at it, so I believe librarian powers are essentially a place where you can lean your models to playing one way or another in different games.

 

Also that link to 3++ is good. Even if you disagree, he has some good explanations. My only negative response was that he was a guy on the internet telling us the internet is often whiney and wrong, which is true, but undermines the strength of his own argument. ;)

[Crynn]

Easily in 2k.

 

Thing about Mephiston is that IMHO he's just going to fail to cast the psychic jump pack power at the worst moments and then be left behind or out front. I suppose, at the end of the day, he's an appropriately costed unit, in that he's not super-efficient for his points, but he's also not way overcosted so he's actually just worth thinking about.

 

I definitely don't think two Sanguinary Priest bubbles are enough, I'd go 2-4. Just play around with your models on the table. Move 2 12"inch circles around and then move 3, and then think about where you envision your units being. Of course, you might find two to be entirely adequate and that's cool.

 

I really like Astorath and the upped chance of going nuts for everyone else, but just given that I'd prefer to put 3-4 priests down, I'd get more use out of multiple librarians. As you said, psychic defense can be quite a thing these days, and BA psychic powers can do a lot of heavy lifting. I certainly will almost always want both of them to go off, but with two I'm somewhat likely to be able to get one power off at least. I'm liking the S8 line, since it brings a long range element to this list, but the close combat bonuses take what you already do and make you even better at it, so I believe librarian powers are essentially a place where you can lean your models to playing one way or another in different games.

 

Also that link to 3++ is good. Even if you disagree, he has some good explanations. My only negative response was that he was a guy on the internet telling us the internet is often whiney and wrong, which is true, but undermines the strength of his own argument. :devil:

 

 

How does Mephiston fail to cast wings at the worst times when he has 3 casts per turn? Do you know the odds of him failing that? they are over 1 in 1000. seriously. As for the person who lost all respect after my 'take Mephiston or you are putting yourself at a disadvantage' line, well to you sir, you have some valid points but I shall add this.

 

Meph in Mech is better than in a jumper list however, Mephiston is smaller than assault marine and it is very easy to completely yes completely block line of site to him just using assault marines, at worst a 4+ cover save. Now granted if you are to do this with assault marine you are vulnerable to template weapons but that just depends on what your opponent is packs. I do understand what you are saying about all the anti tank weapons will focus on him with no vehicles, but that will take pressure off the honor guard who really require anti tank weapons to be killed effectively themselves not to metion that to down meph with lascannons in a round with just a 4+ save at a guard bs of 3 would take around 24, so while he has no vehicles he has units that really wont fall to bolter fire and will require missile launchers and the likes to take down effectively. Also they will only get one round of shooting before Meph makes combat so in that respect he should be fine as well. In some cases it is irrelivant weather Meph makles it to combat with 1 wound or 5 due to his intiative his combat effective is unchanged.

 

As for anti death star, well I disagree with you in 90% of circumstances for instance, thunder cav, ork nobs with or without bikes, seer council, all of these units he will maul points for points. there are very few who he wont one being assault termies when armed with SH,SS obviously.

 

Now I never said he was the only alternative, as I believe a librarian with sword and rage is fantastic for costs I just believe Meph is slightly still my prefered choice thus i believe you disadvantage yourself not to take him, not that there aren't other good alternatives. But either way with a JP army you will be up close, so str 10 with rerolls to hit kills alot of nasties that normal JP army cant deal with well such as some of those death star units, walker squads, such as cans with kustom force field near by, dreads where you dont want to wast a whole squads shooting and then not be able to assault anything just to kill it with 2 melta guns, monoliths the list goes on.

 

Anyway hope that provides some validation to my points. I personally have found Meph unbelieavable even against eldar, though granted I do play highly Mech but I have played him a few time in a all jumper list.

 

Cheers. Crynn

[Crynn]

Sry did the good old double post. Silly comp.