D00M Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 So the Chaos codex is pretty broken when my 13 year old brother can beat me to pulp with his fail guard list. I was playing around with the idea of changing point values and making slight adjustments to the rules rather than going bat-:P and adding in whole new units and rules which would require extensive play testing. Some ideas: Point changes: - Daemon prince takes a price hike of at least 20pts - Wings cost a daemon prince somewhere in the region of 60pts as per new Tyranid Codex - Noise Marines are 17pts which is similar to a 10 man squad with the 20pts icon. Marine with sonic blaster now costs 22pts and can reasonably compete with the other cult options - Possessed down to 23pts - Bikes reduced in points to contend with Codex Space Marines Rules alterations: - Daemon weapons still inflict a wound on the roll of a 1 but you get to make an invulnerable save and even if this is failed you make your regular number of attacks - All Chaos sorcerers automatically pass their psychic tests (they practically live in the warp for gods sakes!) - Chaos Dreadnought double taps at closest enemy unit unless it can draw line of sight with any enemy models More difficult stuff: - Sorcerers and their powers need an overhaul, making lash work only on a failed enemy ld test seems like a good place to start - Get rid of God icons altogether seeing as they're pretty useless in most cases - replace with something else? - Add in the dread claw from forge world, which is like 50pts (It can take off and ferry different squads around the board) These house rules aren't really a problem for me as i have all my 40k games with friends and family so i wont be trying to force them on strangers. Ideas welcome Cheers D00M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caboosebe Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 euh, doesn't Daemon prince NOT have a daemon weapon, it's a close combat weapon, he doesn't get any extra attacks, nor wounds on a one ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelekor the Wanderer Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 I don't understand what you are attempting to do here. Are you implying that the Codex is overpowered or underpowered? Minor tweaks won't 'fix it'. If it is broken, and I don't actually think its broken (its just bland), then you would need to gut it entirely and rework it from scratch. Point tweaks and shimmying-up the rules seems pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D00M Posted August 12, 2010 Author Share Posted August 12, 2010 I don't understand what you are attempting to do here. Are you implying that the Codex is overpowered or underpowered? Minor tweaks won't 'fix it'. If it is broken, and I don't actually think its broken (its just bland), then you would need to gut it entirely and rework it from scratch. Point tweaks and shimmying-up the rules seems pointless. The Current Chaos codex is pretty badly underpowered when given a even match up against most of the current armies. I'm just suggesting fixes to units that never see the field, ie Dreadnoughts, Lords, sorcerers, Possessed, Bikes, Noise Marines.etc while discouraging units which see way too much field time and are outrageously cheap for what they do (Daemon Prince cough cough) and thus giving the chaos general more options. The usual prince, Oblit (Oblits should probably have the 0-1 ratio slapped back on them), Plague Marine route is bland as all hell The Dreadclaw would give the Chaos general a great Rhino alternative for an army which cant function without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan The Deamon Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 I disagree. I play a lot of really silly units and combination's and i don't need the whole book re written in order to do it. I could really open a big can of worms here but i'm going to try and refrain. I applaud your motivation to breathe life back into the C:CSM, although i really wish i had a depressing picture of someone kicking a dead horse. :rolleyes: On a side note, During the Wargames Con team and single tourny My dreadnought and Lord (flying solo) were the MVP's of my entire lineup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caboosebe Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Ok, there are some weak points in it. But to be badly underpowered... We had a tournement in the club 2 weeks ago, Chaos won, from a player who usually plays Tau, and played Chaos just for the fun of getting his old army back on the field, using latest edition (not 3.5). He fought evry type of army there is (yes even the Dark Eldar) and hasn't lost a single match. Yes, you can argue that the others were just weak, but evry single one of them? Chaos isn't that weak, sure some parts are a bit on the low side, but hey, it's for fun isn't it? We don't play to win ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D00M Posted August 13, 2010 Author Share Posted August 13, 2010 Ok, there are some weak points in it. But to be badly underpowered... We had a tournement in the club 2 weeks ago, Chaos won, from a player who usually plays Tau, and played Chaos just for the fun of getting his old army back on the field, using latest edition (not 3.5).He fought evry type of army there is (yes even the Dark Eldar) and hasn't lost a single match. Yes, you can argue that the others were just weak, but evry single one of them? Chaos isn't that weak, sure some parts are a bit on the low side, but hey, it's for fun isn't it? We don't play to win ^^ What list was he using? I'm not denying these units look awesome and are cool to use and sometimes hit the big time but take a quick glance at the Chaos lists you see on here and it quickly becomes clear that these units aren't fielded because they just aren't competitive choices. It would be awesome to take these units without feeling like your Handicapping yourself by doing so. I kinda think of it like Starcraft, dead old game that Blizzard supported with patches for over 10 years, were they beating a dead horse?, Korea didn't seem to think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 What list was he using? I'm not denying these units look awesome and are cool to use and sometimes hit the big time but take a quick glance at the Chaos lists you see on here and it quickly becomes clear that these units aren't fielded because they just aren't competitive choices. It would be awesome to take these units without feeling like your Handicapping yourself by doing so. I kinda think of it like Starcraft, dead old game that Blizzard supported with patches for over 10 years, were they beating a dead horse?, Korea didn't seem to think so I don't know that he was using DPs, Oblits and PMs/KBs but that makes a pretty strong list... and I'm sure you can add a bit of spice to that without killing yourself... the problem is you have a very small choice of really strong lists... the codex is not broken as such as in it can't make any good lists and nor is it over-powered... Guard for example are stronger (IMHO with the top lists they can make) but you can beat them... Some units may be cheap... daemon princes... but when balanced out with the rest of the book they do not break the game... No the codex needs to be re-done we are not talking about a few minor changes and some people have actually done some really good fandexs... that are based on the current codex but with more choice, flavour... better balance (as far as I can tell without play testing it all) and legion options... yay rubric terminators... By the way Nihm can probably show you links to 500 topics like this or you could do some search-fu... as for the Blizzard patch thing... if GW was doing this then it would be worth while... because it would be a real update and yes it is needed... however unlike Blizzard GW obviously sees no profit in doing us an update for now... Starcraft is Serious money in Korea... we are talking multiple dedicated TV channels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Overlord Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 however unlike Blizzard GW obviously sees no profit in doing us an update for now I find it extremely irritating GW puts Chaos on such a low priority after a bland codex when CSM are apparently the second most popular army (I could be wrong though). At least the fluff and models are ridiculously awesome to make up for it, but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroplane Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 Fixing the Chaos Codex is easy. It is generally agreed that our biggest problem in 5th edition is a lack of ranged anti-tank. Here is how to fix it - Make Obliterators 0-1 Elites Allow the 'Crazed' special rule to be bought off our Dreadnaughts for about 10-15 points. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Seriously, that's about all it needs. Sure, there are lots of places that the codex is filled with epic fail, but there are also some really good units as well. Daemon Princes are not too expensive, because the rest of the HQ choices (except Khârn) are pretty poor. Wings are not overpriced, because there isn't a unit that you can hide a Prince, and the rest of the army is pretty slow... Yes, I agree that many units need an overhaul in points. However, as there are some units that are very fairly priced, and some that are a very good bargain, I'm not complaining too much. I, personally, would like to see Sonic Blasters standard on Noisemarines. If you had that, the insane price of Blastmasters and Doomsirens would make more sense. I would like to see Bikes and Raptors cheaper, Posessed to choose a power instead of it being random. I would give a pound of flesh to have the current summoning rules with real Daemons (Bloodletters, Daemonettes, etc...) I would love to see Spawn fall into that big pit they have in Sparta... But, when it's all said and done, 5th edition demands more ranged anti-tank, and other than that we have some good choices. Oblits 0-1 Elite Dreadnoughts able to buy 'Crazed' away. That's all we really need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 I disagree, players woul be happy to see some new units and weapons, almost every dex since 5th ed. had any + heroes with wide army rules and special squad leaders is idea that I am buying. But personally I think that chaos dexes shouldnt be divided to deamons and CSM but rather Undivided and Dedicated chaos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 I don't think that most of Chaos is in that poor of shape when it comes to long-range vehicle killing capacity; with how good they are at popping light vehicles loyalist marines would love to have the option for autocannons on their infantry units. Heavy-support wise, you've got most of the same options as other Marines, plus there are the obliterators. Where Chaos really hurts, compared to normal marines, is in the fast attack and elites section. There's a reason Fast Attack is often left completely empty in competitive lists, and most people only take throwaway termicide units out of the Elite section. It's not so much a matter of not having good Long-Range AT options as it is that the options are not spread out enough over the Force Org chart; Marines can get good long-range AT from Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support, while Chaos only gets those options in Troops and Heavy Support. Boosting up Chaos Bikers to the standard set by recent Marine Codices, making Dreadnoughts better gun platforms, and maybe boosting the Reaper Autocannon used by Terminators would do a lot to fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 obliterators and daemon princes should be made 0-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Hopefully GW will return to us our corrupted machine spirits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 and legion specific quirks maybe? (nothing over the top, just something to differentiate the legions a bit...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas'o R'Vre Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 and legion specific quirks maybe? (nothing over the top, just something to differentiate the legions a bit...) How about for the Iron Warriors... obliterators and daemon princes should be made 0-1 Remove the 0-1 Oblit limitation. Wow, what a good Idea... In fact, I'm sure I saw somewhere that this was used to great effect... Oh yeah, that was it. 3.5 :P [/sarcastic rant at GW] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Not as crazy as the pete haines dex of doom...just something to differentiate the legions a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Making anything 0-1 is nothing more than pure laziness; it's imposing an artificial limit instead of following the correct solution and making all options reasonably balanced. That's not to mention that 0-1 limits and the like have obviously fallen out of favor with GW; it's not a rule that pops up in any of the new codices. For HQ's, bump Chaos Lords Sorcerors up to the level of current Marine equivalents, and give DP's a bit of a price hike (or possibly just wings). Obliterators will stop being the be-all end-all of Heavy Support once the rest of the list is put together better; they're great generalists, but a Chaos army that has decent Fast Attack and Elite Choices will make specializing a lot more practical, reducing the appeal of a generalist unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted August 15, 2010 Share Posted August 15, 2010 some good points but it would put a stop to the inevitable DP and oblit spam that seems a bit too common...:evil: If they made other units (havocs? raptors? chaos dreads?) a bit better/cheaper that would help too...:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D00M Posted August 16, 2010 Author Share Posted August 16, 2010 Need to sticky a thread like this linking to all these Community Dex's Ive only ever stumbled upon one and it was kinda fail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 What if the Mark system was introduced as a 2-stage system. First level of Marks are the classics we know, raising an Attribute. The second level combines the Mark with Cult-specific Special Rules and equipment. The leaves the Cult Troops out as a specific unit, but makes them available in all the different flavors of units from basic Marines to Possessed to Princes. Add the same options for vehicles would help restore a lot of flavor to the army. Mayhaps move Possessed to Troops, after dropping their price a smidge of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Just get the space wolf codex. Replace the word wolf with Chaos. Claw with Renegades. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-A-D-R Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Ah, the weekly "what if?" thread, I thought I'd whip this quick motivational up to surmise just what most people think. http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g20/The_Ant_Team/motivator283ce428bf04d40d81e3c0a42b617fa3045f942d.jpg The codex we have now is almost three years old (I may be wrong about that) and it is showing its age, this book was conceived in the design era of "less is more". The designers did not conspire and cackle madly under flickering light bulbs in a dark dungeon to ruin the army, they were told what the book had to be and they did it. Had GW not taken a u-turn on their design philosophy I'm sure there would be more appraisal than scorn, but in a game of flying dreadnought psykers, jaws of the world wolf, mech-vet and so on I can understand why a lot of people don't like the codex, which is okay. I can't agree with some of the more radical changes proposed by posters here, but what would be nice is to be brought into line with the latest movers and shakers and feel a little less "left out". But I agree with the notion that the Dark Eldar and 'Crons need a new book before us, I mean they really are mice amongst men! ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Overlord Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 But I agree with the notion that the Dark Eldar and 'Crons need a new book before us, I mean they really are mice amongst men! Ain't that the truth...since GW have done a lot of Imperial codexes in a row, maybe they can do a row of non-Imperials: Dark Eldar-Necrons-Chaos? Or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeghrefn Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Having played both with and against the current CSM codex I find the tempatation to use plague marines excessively is quite high. I think they should have their points value increased by 1-2 per model, while possibly bringing down the cost of the other cult troops. It would be nice to see some variety there, or gods forbid, people using the non cult CSM troops. Other than that, I would make both obliterators and the daemon prince 0-1 choices in their respective slots while not adjusting their points. Edit: I forgot the Raptors! These guys are obviously portrayed in the fluff as being better than they currently are. Not sure what to do for them though... definitely a point cost reduction at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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