Rifleman Dread vs Land Speeder Typhoon

[DarkGuard]

So in my list I try to make sure I have one or two units dedicated to taking on enemy transports such as Rhinos etc. At the moment I'm using two Typhoons, but I have also in the past used the one Rifleman Dread. I eventually swapped my Typhoons/Rifleman partnership for two Typhoons and a lascannon on my Razorback. It's done me well, as the Typhoons have the manoeuvrability allowing shots on side armour as well as last minute objective contesting, while the LC packs a punch. However, I'm starting to feel that their lack of accuracy with my bad dice rolls, and the fact that once they loose their MLs they are a lot worst has me looking at the Rifleman again.

 

So here's the question, in the role of anti-transport and light armour, what is better? I'm not too fussed about the additional anti-infantry aspect, as I tend to run two Vindicators and have other anti-infantry weapons (Sternguard!). So basically, when it comes to taking out those transports, what do you prefer?

 

The Typhoon with its mobility and higher strength shots, plus its cheapness?

 

Or the Rifleman with it's greater volume of more accurate fire?

 

So please, thoughts, suggestions, past experiences? All will be much appreciated.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

tl Auto C: 27.43 18.78 9.63 0 0

ML: 14.81 11.11 7.41 3.7 0

 

These numbers are for a single gun, not two.

 

You can see that the Rifleman is far superior in terms of popping transports. Moving 6" per turn is solid and AV12 is safe.

 

The Speeder can move 12" per turn, making it very hard to escape o keep out of sight of. AV10 is not very good, but then you keep it out of range as best you can.

A Dread can avoid shooting by running into close combat, useful if it has lost it's guns or is about to get blown to pieces by a Rail Gun or Multi Melta, whilst the Speeder can Flat-out 24" to contest an objective.

 

But then again, the Dread costs 125 and the Speeder 90, whilst they come from different slots. So although the Dread is better imo, your choice needs to be in harmony with the rest of your force.

 

I don't get to use either with C:BT. I look forwards to that day :P

[KhorneHunter57x]

I prefer the Rifleman due to the toughness and accuracy. It can't be hurt by small-arms fire, and it is far more durable when charged.

 

I don't get to use either with C:BT. I look forwards to that day ^_^

That's why they give us the Land Raider Crusader. Who needs to pop transports at range when you can just run them over? :P

[bloodancient]

I must agree that it's about what the rest of the army is like do you need the speed or the line holding ability. I like speeders run three of them 2 tornadoes and one typhoon. I love the meltas it destroy's everythingand the three of them together can take MC's in a single round. Very multipurpose.

[Koremu]

I prefer the Rifleman due to the toughness and accuracy. It can't be hurt by small-arms fire, and it is far more durable when charged.

 

I don't get to use either with C:BT. I look forwards to that day :(

That's why they give us the Land Raider Crusader. Who needs to pop transports at range when you can just run them over? :P

How so? It's always being hit on a 4+ (barring a high Init IC, who will hit on 3+), whereas the Land Speeders will only be hit on 6s (assuming sensible movement) and can't be tarpitted.

 

To answer the OPs question, in my estimation the Rifleman is point-for-point the more potent killer of AV11, which counts for a lot, but the Land Speeder is the more flexible tool by a long way.

[Chengar Qordath]

I prefer the Rifleman due to the toughness and accuracy. It can't be hurt by small-arms fire, and it is far more durable when charged.

 

I don't get to use either with C:BT. I look forwards to that day :devil:

That's why they give us the Land Raider Crusader. Who needs to pop transports at range when you can just run them over? :)

How so? It's always being hit on a 4+ (barring a high Init IC, who will hit on 3+), whereas the Land Speeders will only be hit on 6s (assuming sensible movement) and can't be tarpitted.

Not to mention that catching a typhoon in close combat is no small feat. It has the range to stay well out of assault range from any enemy units, and the mobility to keep away from almost anything that would care to chase it.

 

Personally, when it comes to Typhoon vs. Rifleman I would run it off of which slots you want to use more. If you want Terminators and Sternguard take Typhoons; if you want attack bikes and MM/HF Speeders take Riflemen.

[KhorneHunter57x]

How so? It's always being hit on a 4+ (barring a high Init IC, who will hit on 3+), whereas the Land Speeders will only be hit on 6s (assuming sensible movement) and can't be tarpitted.

Grenades only hit it on 6s, and the extra two points of armor are better than sheer speed (S 4/5 can't hurt a Dread, and S 6 will only glance it) in my opinion.

 

That said, I think it comes down to, as others have said, what fits better with your army.

[mowglie]

The maths vs AV11 is as follows (using binomial distribution rather than counting fractions because they can only hit 1 target):-

 

Rifleman = 1 shot => 32/36 hits => 32/108 penetrating hits => 32/324 = ~9.9% chance to wreck or better.

4 shots = 34% chance to wreck or better

 

Typhoon = 1 shot => 2/3 hits => 2/6 penetrating hits => 2/18 = 11.1% chance to wreck or better.

2 shots = 21% chance to wreck or better

 

You can see that point-for-point the Rifleman is better at taking out AV11.

 

However, there are a bunch of other factors to take into account:-

 

In favour of the Rifleman:-

It is much more resilient, both vs shooting and in cc (except vs massed high S e.g. th/ss terminators). AV10 open-topped is extremely fragile. 15 lootas can and will take out a whole squadron of them in a single shooting phase.

 

In favour of the Typhoon:-

It's much quicker - especially for e.g. contesting last turn objectives - but also for simply getting in LoS of the right target, or for sneaking side or rear shots.

It can ID T4 characters.

It has excellent anti-light-infantry capability.

 

For me, the Rifleman is too much of a one-trick pony. It is good at taking out AV10-11 (although to be honest, not that good. Other armies get much much better - e.g. Lootas). It's good at taking out infantry with 4+ saves. Point-for-point it kind of sucks vs everything else, though.

 

The missile launchers on the Typhoon are much much more versatile - if you can keep it out of danger.

 

Serious question: why not take both?

[Koremu]

In favour of the Rifleman:-

It is much more resilient, both vs shooting and in cc (except vs massed high S e.g. th/ss terminators). AV10 open-topped is extremely fragile. 15 lootas can and will take out a whole squadron of them in a single shooting phase.

 

In favour of the Typhoon:-

It's much quicker - especially for e.g. contesting last turn objectives - but also for simply getting in LoS of the right target, or for sneaking side or rear shots.

It can ID T4 characters.

It has excellent anti-light-infantry capability.

 

For me, the Rifleman is too much of a one-trick pony. It is good at taking out AV10-11 (although to be honest, not that good. Other armies get much much better - e.g. Lootas). It's good at taking out infantry with 4+ saves. Point-for-point it kind of sucks vs everything else, though.

 

The missile launchers on the Typhoon are much much more versatile - if you can keep it out of danger.

 

Serious question: why not take both?

 

The Rifleman is NOT a lot more resilient - it's being hit on 4s by any Tactical Sergeant with a Power Fist, it lacks a DCCW so it will take forever to chew through any squad, and (importantly) locking it in CC accomplishes the objective of neutralising its firepower.

 

Furthermore, the Land Speeder will simply disengage from any CC and that's IF you get to assault the Land Speeders in the first place, as their supermobility makes that unlikely in the extreme.

 

 

Also, regular Land Speeders are NOT Open-Topped.

[rat of vengence]

Serious question: why not take both?

I did in my last tournament. I have to say the rifleman surprised me with how much damage it dished out to everything from Chimeras to Tyranid MC's. Sure, I did miss the S10 fist, but it was good to have the opponent fearing the 4xS7 shots coming downrange.

I did enjoy the mobility of the Typhoon too. Two fast moving krak missiles are great, and it does well with ranged anti-infantry.

 

That said, I may go with just the Rifleman next time, because I don't use up my Elite slots, whereas I want another Fast Attack slot for some MM Attack Bikes.

 

RoV

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for all the responses guys, especially the stats, that has helped a lot.

 

At the moment, I only use one of each of the Elites and Fast Attack slots (Sternguard and MM ABs), so that's not much of an issue.

 

I'm tempted to go with the Rifleman's for a bit and see how they work out. They do seem better at taking out AV11, but their flexibility is questionable. Typhoons give that flexibility, but are more fragile, so it comes down to how you use it.

 

I do use two Vindicators as well, and that's why I'm not trying both out. I have anti-infantry there, as well as instant death on characters. However, they are useful for taking away fire from my Rhinos, and can provide a high armoured shield as well.

 

Thanks so far guys, and please keep it up ;).

[mowglie]

Also, regular Land Speeders are NOT Open-Topped.

 

So they aren't. That helps a bit.

 

It's being hit on 4s by any Tactical Sergeant with a Power Fist

 

And the skimmer is being penetrated on a 3+ rather than a 5+ by the PF, and on a 5+ by the 9 krak grenades the rest of the squad bring. The tactical squad are about two thirds more likely to wreck a skimmer on the turn they charge - more if the skimmer is part of a squadron and so being wrecked on glance/immob and pen/immob. Furthermore its AT firepower gets knocked out by a single "Weapon Destroyed" result. YMMV as to whether or not that's "a lot".

 

Now, quite right. If you accidentally let either of these units get assaulted, you made a mistake. They both have the ability to keep out of trouble due to their range (and the skimmer additionally due to its extra 6" move).

 

However, as I was alluding to, the odds of a skimmer surviving an assault with its mobility and launcher intact are pretty slim.

[Koremu]

You don't even need a weapon destroyed result to knock out a Rifleman's shooting in CC - once it's locked, it's not shooting, unlike the Land Speeders.

 

Also, your Dreadnought is hardly better off with Immob results - as after an Immob, the Dread is hit normally by those Krak 'nades.

 

If you are using Land Speeders in Squadrons, you can (and should) be stacking dangerous results onto a sacrificial speeder - so while knocking out the first Typhoon is easier, knocking out the second launcher is a LOT more chancy.

 

Also, you only get one round of Combat against the Speeder, you get MANY vs. the dread.

 

Also, Power Fist vs;

 

Dreadnought - 3/6 chance to hit, followed by 2/6 chance to Pen = 1/6 penetration, plus 1/12 glance

Speeder - 1/6 chance to hit, followed by 4/6 chance to Pen = 4/36 Penetration, plus 1/36 glance

 

The chance of 9 tactical marines getting ONE penetration result on a Speeder is roughly 50-50, FWIW - not really that threatening, especially with a Sac Speeder in play

[mowglie]

Also, Power Fist vs;

 

Dreadnought - 3/6 chance to hit, followed by 2/6 chance to Pen = 1/6 penetration, plus 1/12 glance

Speeder - 1/6 chance to hit, followed by 4/6 chance to Pen = 4/36 Penetration, plus 1/36 glance

 

Yep. I'll give you that. So if you charge my Dred/Speeder with nothing but power fists (say, a unit of TH/SS) the speeder is safer than the dred because it's harder to hit (what on earth are you doing assaulting a single skimmer with a unit of TH/SS?...)

 

I'll also concede that the Rifleman won't be shooting next turn. In fact if I've sent my Rifleman charging ~12"+ ahead of my line unsupported and you lock it in assault, it won't be shooting for a while. Certainly if there are no other units on the board, the tactical squad is certain to kill it kills them. The speeder, on the other hand, is not likely to shoot ever again after that first round. You say "it'll just move away", yet the odds of it not being wrecked, wd'd, immobilised, or stunned are slim.

 

The chance of 9 tactical marines getting ONE penetration result on a Speeder is roughly 50-50, FWIW - not really that threatening, especially with a Sac Speeder in play

 

Yet by the exact maths you gave above, the tactical squad is a lot more dangerous vs the speeder than vs the dred - because of those krak grenades.

 

Like I said, it's a moot point since neither should really be in assault. If you're using the rifleman unsupported as a spearhead, you're really doing it wrong.

 

Do you deny that the Speeder is more fragile vs shooting?

[Koremu]

The Speeder is easier to take out if you can draw a bead on it. On the other hand it's next to immune to static or near static long-range firepower, due to its supermobility - there's almost always a building or two to block LOS - and fast AT weaponry generally has more important targets to shoot at.

 

Re: Kraks, remember they go first (@I4), odds of two hits are LOW, and vs. a Squadron you just stack the later fist attack on the same speeder as took the krak hit. And then leave, at high speed.

[Captain Idaho]

If I had to make a choice between Typhoon's and Rifleman Dreads, I would always choose the Typhoons thank's to their greater versatility and ability to blast infantry to atoms from a long distance away.

 

But it is accademic to me, as the Typhoon should be used as a pair in my eyes, to minimise bad luck rearing it's ugly head and ruining the shot. That makes it far more powerful but far more expensive to have 2 Typhoons in preference to a single Rifleman.

 

Of course I also agree with mowglie when he said this:

 

Serious question: why not take both?

 

Indeed, that makes the army very useful at range.

[pattison]

To answer the OPs question, in my estimation the Rifleman is point-for-point the more potent killer of AV11, which counts for a lot, but the Land Speeder is the more flexible tool by a long way.

This.

Btw I don't use Riflemen, but I always field 2x2 typhoons.. pure gold for me.

[DarkGuard]

If I had to make a choice between Typhoon's and Rifleman Dreads, I would always choose the Typhoons thank's to their greater versatility and ability to blast infantry to atoms from a long distance away.

 

But it is accademic to me, as the Typhoon should be used as a pair in my eyes, to minimise bad luck rearing it's ugly head and ruining the shot. That makes it far more powerful but far more expensive to have 2 Typhoons in preference to a single Rifleman.

 

Of course I also agree with mowglie when he said this:

 

Serious question: why not take both?

 

Indeed, that makes the army very useful at range.

 

As already said I do use two Vindicators. However, what would people say if I were to take them out instead?

 

Quick run down of current list:

 

Librarian

9x Sternguard with 2xHF, PF in Rhino

10x Tactical Squad with PG, MM, PF in Rhino

10x Tactical Squad with flamer, PC and Razorback w/TL-LC

5x Scout Squad with shotguns

Land Speeder Typhoon

Land Speeder Typhoon

2x MM ABs

Vindicator

Vindicator

 

1500pts.

 

I'd be taking out the two Land Speeders and Scouts at the moment. If I take the Vindicators out instead I can do a straight points swap. However, while I keep the fast movement of the Speeders, I lose the potential destruction that the Vindys can do, plus the target saturation to draw firepower away from my Rhinos.

 

Hmmmm....

Thoughts?

[mowglie]

As already said I do use two Vindicators. However, what would people say if I were to take them out instead?

 

I'd say "noes! don't take them out!"

 

Quick run down of current list:

 

In your list, I definitely prefer the Typhoons.

[Tanhausen]

I agree with mowglie: Typhoons blend in nicely in that lis :)

[Koremu]

If I were altering that list, I'd drop the MMABs and the Scout Squad for MM/HF LS * 2 and replace the RB with a Rhino so everything has a transport.

[DerekLee688]

What's the rifleman going to do after it opens a rhino? Local meta game stipulates I need to kill MEQ, badly. As much as I like it, rifleman takes back seat to combi-preds and typhoons. Kraks kill MEQ/FNP/biker nobs, stuff that shrugs off S:7 AP:4 hits. No better than a grot spitting in a marine's face. If number of shots is important, typhoon edges out vs. infantry with two frags/kraks and three bolter shots.

 

One thing I do value Riflemen over typhoons is the three sides of AV:12. One either side of two vindies makes for an armored spearhead. Nothing moves and covers regular vindi's better/efficiently.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for the quick responses guys. Looks like the Typhoons might live to see another battle. The other thing I had been considering was dropping them for one Rifleman, but adding a LSS with heavy flamer for my Scouts to ride in, making them more effective. At the moment they are a wildcard choice focussed on outflanking into awkward positions, taking on isolated elements of the armour and being a nuisance.

[Koremu]

Yeah, either use an LSS, or drop the scouts entirely.

[DarkGuard]

Yeah, either use an LSS, or drop the scouts entirely.

 

What would you suggest dropping for the LSS? Or what would you replace the Scouts with? The main reason I don't do this at the moment is doing so would weaken my long-ranged anti-tank, as I would probably remove a Typhoon or the lascannon off my Razorbacks. Things become harder to move about and all that.