Are the Unforgiven Legion or Chapters?

[HsojVvad]

I can't remember where I read this, but I believe The Unforgiven is a Legion instead of a chapter. I think I read bits and peices all over the place, 4th edtion codex and here on B&C. I say they acted or looked like they became chapters to make the Ultra Marines happy. (Darn I forget what pappa smurf it was that made it. Gulliman? Sorry I forget). The Unforgiven didn't want to change, but pretend to concede to the UM so another HH war didn't occur.

 

We have Supreme Grand Master Azreal. He can take control of any Unforgiven Chapter. I believe the DA, are a chapter, as well as the rest of the Unforgiven chapters, but on a whole they are still the original Dark Anges Legion.

 

I would love to read what you guys have to say about this.

 

Let's discuss.

[con-fusion]

I don't think I've ever read it anywhere official, but I've always thought that there is enough in the fluff to defend the interpretation that the DA and successors are still a legion with their chapter designations acting as a smoke screen.

 

I basically throw it out there as the following inference-based fluff theory:

 

1) The remaining DA battle companies changed their designations to appear as if they were chapters;

2) The DW and RW battle companies dispersed among the chapters as "veteran" companies;

3) The DW elements in each chapter are answerable to Belial but act as a detachment under the command of their respective chapter masters and are recuited from the at the chapter level;

4) The same goes for the RW;

5) As needed, all chapters are under the command of Azrael; and

6) All chapters are represented in the IC in the same manner as they would have been represented in a council of the battle companies

 

In this type of scenario, the Consecrators leave a whole lot of room for fun. Are they a chapter? Or, are they a secret battle company plus-sized mobile reserve force left in place since the formation of the chapter smokescreen and only designated as a chapter when their operations became too visible? I think the second. This is why they are rarely seen and use older arms and armor.

[brennus]

To me, the Unforgiven is a Legion disguising itself as several chapters. The officers of the various chapters co-ordinate the hunt for the Fallen, and actually, breaking into chapters facilitates the secret mission of the Unforgiven. With the various chapters seeking for information across the Imperium, it is easier to disguise the large scale operation when the chapters each apparently doing something on their own.

 

I have no doubts that the Unforgiven could readily re-assemble as a single combined legion if it were ever required of them. Than includes the chapters that were created after the Second Founding. I also believe that this is known to a few people in the Inquisition, at the very least - it would explain why the Imperium is reluctant to allow the creation of Dark Angel successor chapters.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The Unforgiven are Chapters but enjoy a closer bond than most other First founding and their successors, because of the shady past.

They don't operate as a Legion because each Unforgiven Chapter has it's own independence but they will coordinate efforts more easily, having a conclave of some sort with various high ranking officers of the Unforgiven Chapters.

[Wayward]

They may seem a Legion regarding the hunt for the fallen, but the chapter split up is real. Anyways, the fluff is so unconstant on such detalis that its hard to say...

[Arioch]

Well Azrael is the Supreme Grand Master, and it is said that he is above all, even the Grand Masters of the other unforgiven chapters. So it would indeed seem that Azreal has some sort of "official" leadership over the Unforgiven, but they are still regarded as chapters. I dont think that the unforgiven are that numerous, perhabs their numbers ressembles the Black Templars. Perhabs this is why the Inquisition has allowed it, as long as they know how many chapters Azrael can control.

[Bringer of Redemption]

Well Azrael is the Supreme Grand Master, and it is said that he is above all, even the Grand Masters of the other unforgiven chapters. So it would indeed seem that Azreal has some sort of "official" leadership over the Unforgiven, but they are still regarded as chapters. I dont think that the unforgiven are that numerous, perhabs their numbers ressembles the Black Templars. Perhabs this is why the Inquisition has allowed it, as long as they know how many chapters Azrael can control.

 

The inquisition doesn't know. The chain of command runs through the inner circles of the respective chapters, so that not even the rank and file are aware that they are ultimately answerable to Azrael.

 

--BoR

[HsojVvad]

So if we take the total of Unforgiven, Dark Angels and it's successor chapters, would that be around 5000? That is what I am thinking. That is not that big, since it's what, 1000 SM in a chapter? Since we know of the DA and the 4 successor, I thought it would be more than that.

[Tomevans]

Yeah, I think the very closely linked Chapters is more sensible than the hidden Legion. Dont the DA send one of their Int Chaplains to assist a Successor in one of the Imperial Armour books? This would show just how close a link their is between the chapters, although they are still seperate entities. You cold argue that all the masters are one organisation, they are all part of the Inner Circle, but the other brothers would see themselves as belonging to their individual Chapter, not to the DA legion as a whole.

[Knight of the First Legion]

I would agree with those who believe that the DA operate as a Legion, but due to the need to hunt the fallen they are spread out throughout the galaxy chasing down leads and generally being Space Marines (I am of the belief that the DA and their successors do plenty of Xenos killing and other wholesome activities and don't just hunt the fallen), and this would make it appear that they are in fact several chapters acting of their own accord.

 

Were their ever a real need for the Unforgiven to form into a legion again, I think they would do it without a second thought and not care what the inquisition or any other blue, slightly smurfy marines thought about it.

 

So if we take the total of Unforgiven, Dark Angels and it's successor chapters, would that be around 5000? That is what I am thinking. That is not that big, since it's what, 1000 SM in a chapter? Since we know of the DA and the 4 successor, I thought it would be more than that.

 

The DA have 6 official successor chapters so that would be at least 7000 marines with a massive star fleet also (due to the DA and at least the AoA if memory serves being fleet based chapters). That is legion territory in my opinion, plus with the DA you never know what else they have been keeping secret that might bolster their fighting power!

 

KOTFL

[Arioch]

Its hard to know what the inquisition really knows- I think they know more than what is generally accepted. There is a reason why Dark Angels genseed is frowned upon, even though it is one of the purest. They know something. But yes they proberbly dont know about Azrael´s true position, when I said "official" I meant official compared to the Unforgiven chapters.

 

And I think there would be at least 7000 of these: Dark Angels, Angels of Vengeance, Redemtion, Absolution, Diciples of Caliban, Consecrators and the Guardians of the Covenant. Thats the chapters listed in the codex.

[HsojVvad]

Wouldn't it best be said like, it was GM? You have Chevrolet, Buik, GMC, Cadillac and formally (Pontiac) (Saturn) . Together they are General Motors, but seperately, they are independant. When they are referred, most times, people will say, you have a GM, or a Ford, while other times, people say you have a Chevy.

 

That is how I see the Dark Angels. While most people see them as independents, but secretly, they are together.

 

Just like in Canada, we have Future Shop, (a place where you buy electronics and what ever else), and we also have Best Buy, we think we have 2 seperate stores, in fact they are one. Best Buy bought out Future shop so they really are one and the same store. All your money goes to Best Buy even though you bought stuff at Future Shop.

 

So even though you can be a successor chapter, the Dark Angels, or Azzy is in control of everything. That is how I see it.

[Tomevans]

It is likely that there are at least another 10 Successor Chapter out there. If you think about the damage done to the other Legions and as a result their geneseed stocks you can imagine that the DA must have quite a few more successors out there.

 

Many recorded:

White Scars have a fair few recorded Successors e.g. Rampagers, Storm Lords, Destroyers. No massive irregularity in their gene seed and hit and run warfare tactics not exactly a downside. Possibility of high numbers of successors.

The Ultramarines have 3/5ths of the SM geneseed. Legion virtually untouched by the HH.

DA have 3 successors recorded. One of the most intact legions as the fluff states that Lion El' Jonson was fighting on "the distant shield worlds" well away from the main conflict, so the DA legion was suprisingly well maintained, even after the Fall. 2nd purest geneseed behind UM's.

 

Few Recorded/ Geneseed problems:

Blood Angles are frowned upon due to the bloodthirsty nature of their Successors.

Salamanders have very few recorded Successors, vague rememberance of some vow Vulkan made after seeing the destruction of Terra. No known 2nd founding succesors.

Iron Hands decimated at Istavaan, Ferrus Manus killed.

Corax degraded the Raven Guard geneseed fighting to restore his legion to capacity after Istavan.

Space Wolves are very different to other SM chapters, frowned upon by High Lords of Terra. Only 1 2nd founding Successor.

Imperial Fists decimated on Terra. 2 2nd founding Chapters to 3 of DA, even after DA killed half of their own on Caliban, shows just how many troops the Fists lost, as well as the fact Rogal Dorn went on a mad crusade killing even more marines after the battle for Terra before being saved by the Ultramarines.

 

Looking at that list shows that even with the sizeable chunk taken away by the UM's, the other Chapters cannot fill the other 2/5's on their own due to the disasters suffered by their respective legions during the HH. The Salamanders, Raven Guard, Space Wolves and Iron Hands would do well to have 2/10's of the Geneseed between them leaving a large chunk left to the DA. I may be wildly off here but it is probably safe to assume the DA have comfortably more than the 6 successors listed.

 

1000 Chapters (roughly)

600 UM's successors.

Leaves 400 or so to be divided between the rest and due to the reasons listed above the DA and the White Scars will probably take the Lion's share.

[Gillyfish]

Very interesting supposition Tomevans. Out of interest, where did the 600 figure come from for Ultramarine successors? Is that in anything official? If so, it is rather interesting.

 

One question to resolve is whether the DA know about all of their successors - there a number of successors known collectively as the Unforgiven, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all DA successors are members of the Unforgiven. It may well be the case that the High Lords, suspicious of the DA, used their geneseed but choose not to ask the parent Chapters to provide officers for the new Chapter, as might normally be the case.

 

The Unforgiven undoubtedly do co-ordinate their activities. The Inner Circle is a supra-Chapter organisation that shares information about the Fallen.

 

Yeah, I think the very closely linked Chapters is more sensible than the hidden Legion. Dont the DA send one of their Int Chaplains to assist a Successor in one of the Imperial Armour books? This would show just how close a link there is between the chapters, although they are still seperate entities.

 

It's the first and final volumes of the Siege of Vraks. The final volume has the Angels of Absolution join the siege with a DA Interrogator Chaplain and they state that this is at the behest of Azreal because the DA are committed elsewhere.

 

So I agree with your interpretation. Most successors seem to be separate (even amongst the Unforgiven) and do have differing attitudes towards the Fallen, which suggests a different culture and attitude within the Chapter. Yet their senior members are all members of the same Inner Circle, so the DA do operate more like a Legion than completely separate units, yet they take care to seem like they operate separately. They wouldn't want the High lords noticing now, would they? ^_^

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

I think, the Unforgiven are not a legion in the original sense of the word (in the 40k universe, that is).

 

However, they do have the Inner Circle, but in my opinion, that is 'just' to coordinate the efforts of the Hunt for the Fallen. As far as I know, they even bring every single one of them capture back to the rock for interrogation (and what follows). Don't ask me, where I read that, because I can't remember or cite the source, but it sticks in my head, maybe wrongly.

 

Apart from that, in my opinion, the chapters perform their duties to the Imperium of Man at their own discretion. Each chapter has its own armory, fleet, and companies, although the DW and RW (as members of the Inner Circle) may be answerable to Belial and Sammael respectively in the case of joint operations.

 

This being said, I believe strongly, that should the need one day arise (return of the primarchs, galaxy wide doom, yadda yadda e.g.), they could very quickly operate as a legion again because of their organization. They'd just fly around with the rock, filling it up with all the not fleet based chapters and pool their fleet ressources while painting their armour uniformly again and voila, we'd have a significant (and monstrous) force :)

In fact, I think this is what would happen very quickly, should Johnson wake some day ...

[Tomevans]

@Gillyfish. The 600 figure is 3/5's of the roughly 1000 figure GW have stated as the number of SM chapters in existence. So I assumed that the Ultramarines would have roughly 600 successor chapters, being teachers pet and all :P

[con-fusion]

This being said, I believe strongly, that should the need one day arise (return of the primarchs, galaxy wide doom, yadda yadda e.g.), they could very quickly operate as a legion again because of their organization. They'd just fly around with the rock, filling it up with all the not fleet based chapters and pool their fleet ressources while painting their armour uniformly again and voila, we'd have a significant (and monstrous) force :)

In fact, I think this is what would happen very quickly, should Johnson wake some day ...

 

The fluff clearly supports that the Lion was very tight-fisted with each of the battle companies in his legion, exercising more direct control over each battle company than the other Primarchs did in leading their legions. It is highly unlikely that the DA and their successor chapters have moved so far towards independence that they wouldn't quickly and easily make the transition back to their pre-Heresy form if the Lion woke up. Of course, given the Lion's paranoia, he might just prefer the chapter smokescreen to remain in place...

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

It is highly unlikely that the DA and their successor chapters have moved so far towards independence that they wouldn't quickly and easily make the transition back to their pre-Heresy form if the Lion woke up.

Uh ... Yes, that's what I wanted to say :)

[con-fusion]

It is highly unlikely that the DA and their successor chapters have moved so far towards independence that they wouldn't quickly and easily make the transition back to their pre-Heresy form if the Lion woke up.

Uh ... Yes, that's what I wanted to say ;)

 

In fact, sans the somewhat wordy flash and verve, that is what you said. Hence, the quote. Of course, we could have been mysterious, and posted nothing but "The fruit does not fall far from the tree." :)

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

Ah okay. Sounded like I was misunderstood :)

[con-fusion]

My fault. I looked back at my response to your first post, and realized that I should have started with "I agree!"

[chaplain belisarius]

to the OP...you are absolutely right! thats such a good idea and it fits with lion el jonsons character...:P

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

I refer to the Unforgiven as a pseudo-Legion. They aren't exactly a Legion, but definitely have a lot of the earmarks of one (many of which have been mentioned in this thead). As an example, they have special taskforces (which are called chapters for secrecy's sake) that are raised from the Unforgiven for one specific purpose. The Consecrators and Disciples of Caliban are 2 examples of this. The Consecrators seem to have been created to protect and preserve the Dark Angels' history and artifacts. The Disciples of Caliban are an even better example, as their one purpose is to hunt Cypher.

 

I definitely like the idea behind the Unforgiven operating much as a Legion would. It's a very interesting thought. :)

[Dremen]

"Azrael sits at the head of the Inner Circle, master even over Grand Masters of the Dark Angel's Successor Chapters" - Codex: Dark Angels

 

One would think, based off that quote, that Azrael has working command, if not in the light of the Imperium, over all Unforgiven. And since he Requested a chapter be formed, The Disciples of Caliban, it would appear he has working authority over far more than his chapter alone. Though they maintain thier independance from thier Founding Chapter, many of the 2nd founding chapters represent aspect of the old Legion. Thier Inner Circles owe loyalty to Azrael and thus, He has command of thier disparate parts.

 

While not probative, the HEavenfall Blades are an example of this. A meteor strikes the rock and blades are made from it. Some of this material is then shipped to all unforgiven chapters so thier leaders can weild the same type of weapons. This seems, to me at least, much like a rite of passage into command of a Battle-Company from the old Legions. Granted im on "Fulgrim" in the Horus Heresy series and havent yet read about the Legions past it still seems to be a pivotal aspect of the unforgiven as a whole. Why Maintain uniformity if not to keep the parts together.

 

 

- "A Moment of Laxity spawns a lifetime of Heresy"

[Brother Degas]

I might be wrong here but arent all successor chapter masters members of the inner circle? This seems to suggest a unified (if secret) command structure with Azreal in overall charge.